if these limits may, at any time, be passed by those intended to be restrained?"
-- Chief Justice John Marshall, Marbury v. Madison, 1803
With A Little Help From Our Friends
What a shocking notion.
LOS ANGELES (AP) - Republican John McCain on Wednesday called anew for the United States to work more collegially with democratic allies and live up to its duties as a world leader, drawing a sharp contrast to the past eight years under President Bush.
“Our great power does not mean we can do whatever we want whenever we want, nor should we assume we have all the wisdom and knowledge necessary to succeed,” the likely presidential nominee said in a speech to the Los Angeles World Affairs Council. “We need to listen to the views and respect the collective will of our democratic allies,” McCain added.
Coming days after his trip to the Middle East and Europe, McCain’s speech was intended to signal to leaders abroad - and voters at home - that he would end an era of what critics have called Bush’s cowboy diplomacy. McCain never mentioned Bush’s name, though he evoked former Democratic Presidents Truman and Kennedy.
It was, in effect, a fresh acknowledgment from the Arizona senator that the United States’ standing on the world stage has been tarnished and that the country has an image problem under Bush.
“We know that we have work to do,” McCain told reporters later.
But this flies in the face of neocon reasoning. What about the grand schemes for spreading democracy, going it alone and nation-building that we’re supposed to be engaged in?
Comments
Bottom line is we, the USA, will always be hated, period.
Absolutely untrue. Refer to my lengthy post on this matter here. If you want to say that the US will always be hated by certain countries or ideologies I’ll grant you that, but the idea that we have always been hated by the world is total nonsense, and I can tell you this because I spent my entire life growing up around foreigners.
I hope this puts to rest the silly notion expressed here that McCain represents a Bush third term.
But this flies in the face of neocon reasoning. What about the grand schemes for spreading democracy, going it alone and nation-building that we’re supposed to be engaged in?
Apparently most of the wold aint to cracked up with the idea of democracy.
I think they like democracy; they just don’t like being told how to achieve it.
I think they like democracy; they just don’t like being told how to achieve it.
This is pretty much exactly the same comment I was going to make.
It reminds of a joke an old college professor of mine used to make:
“Shuddup everyone, we’re gonna talk about democracy!”
Limbaugh was ranting and raving about how this was liberal foreign policy of getting France’s permission to act. I’m sorry. He’s full of it. I think there’s a middle ground between doing whatever the hell occurs to us and letting the world dictate our policy. But I’m funny that way.
You’re being too black and white in your reasoning. McCain is absolutely right about how we should approach diplomacy, but you then resort to a complete mischaracterization of neoconservative ideas. Respecting the opinion of our democratic allies is not exclusive of spreading democracy, or more broadly, doing what we believe to be right, even when it conflicts with the opinions of others. In other words, we take into due and appropriate consideration the view of our democratic allies as we make what we believe to be the right choices in world affairs.
Absolutely untrue. Refer to my lengthy post on this matter here. If you want to say that the US will always be hated by certain countries or ideologies I’ll grant you that, but the idea that we have always been hated by the world is total nonsense, and I can tell you this because I spent my entire life growing up around foreigners.
Bottom line we will always be hated until we are not number one.
What do we do if the other democracies of the world simply lack the moral courage or political will to help us?
Limbaugh was ranting and raving about how this was liberal foreign policy of getting France’s permission to act. I’m sorry. He’s full of it. I think there’s a middle ground between doing whatever the hell occurs to us and letting the world dictate our policy. But I’m funny that way.
Hal, you don’t think Limbaugh is playing you?
I don’t listen to Rush, other things going on, but he is too smart to believe what you are implying. It is more likely a well thought out plan of appearing dissatisfied with McCain’s conservative credentials, thus giving McCain wiggle room with the moderates and the disaffected Democrats (necessary allies for any November victory). McCain has got the conservative vote no matter what Limbaugh or Colter present to the contrary, by appearing unhappy with McCain, the middle is more apt to welcome him.........and Rush gets what he wants all along.
“We need to listen to the views and respect the collective will of our democratic allies,”
So, exactly how is McCain different from Obama in this regard?
What do we do if the other democracies of the world simply lack the moral courage or political will to help us?
Or are unwilling to display any rectitude because they are inbed with our enemies (oil for food scandal?).
It’s interesting that certain parties here (I can think of 2 off the top of my head) routinely ridicule me for discussing how this is exactly what we need to be doing if we ever hope to “win” Iraq…
What do we do if the other democracies of the world simply lack the moral courage or political will to help us?
We’ll have to measure our own courage and dedication to freedom and democracy and see if we still have it in us to do what we feel is right. In the past, we felt like defending freedom was worth it, we lost tens of thousands of men, and untold amounts of our fortune fighting the Nazi and the Commies.
But, that was a different time. Our people were different then. Not “everyone” was a druggie, people went in search of adventure instead of experiencing a fake version of adventure through video games. We taught history in schools.
A very large portion of our populace has become pussified. I don’t know if we’re capable of spreading Democracy anymore like we did in the past. With the exception of our Military, sometimes look like we’re a wimpy shell of our former selves. And unfortunately, the Military can’t do it alone.
We need strong leaders of resolve, we need a press corps who doesn’t make a living out of manufacturing news to further thier own personal agendas, we need parents to encourage thier children to appreciate our country.
Funny thing about the press. For months and months, I’ve been making the case that the press is working against the interest of the country by a reporting bias. Everyone told me I was over-reacting. Now we the press splitting into two camps, Obama and Cliton. Look at the kind of crap they are doing to each other now. Each side can see clearly what the methods are on the other side, and the Dems are now starting to say what I’ve been saying for a long time.
The press just might just be the worst aspect of our country, the writers abuse the public trust, manipulate information and insert bias into nearly everything they do, all in hopes of advancing the Liberal agenda. When the Liberals fight each other, even they can’t deny what they are capapble of.
Just look at that picture of Obama in Muslin garb. Look at CBS frothing over Hillary’s Bosnian war story. You can’t deny it. You can just enjoy the rest they are taning from thier full time jobs of trying to bury Libertarianism.
It’s also interesting that the same people who will ridicule Democrats for talking about right-wing conspiracies are so quick to hop on the MSM conspiracy bandwagon.
Pot, meet kettle.
It’s interesting that certain parties here (I can think of 2 off the top of my head) routinely ridicule me for discussing how this is exactly what we need to be doing if we ever hope to “win” Iraq…
I seem to recall one thread in which you stated that we should ask the Chinese and Russians to help us in Iraq.
If you don’t want to be ridiculed, don’t be ridiculous.
Who among our current allies will help us in Iraq? The Spanish already fled, the Brits are pretty much done, and we can’t even get the Germans to commit more troops to Afghanistan (you know, the war that everyone agrees was a good idea).
The UN refuses to help, apparently thinking that Iraqi girls aren’t worth molesting.
The international community simply cannot be counted on.
It’s interesting that certain parties here (I can think of 2 off the top of my head) routinely ridicule me for discussing how this is exactly what we need to be doing if we ever hope to “win” Iraq…
You and me both, brother.
I seem to recall one thread in which you stated that we should ask the Chinese and Russians to help us in Iraq.
I think that was the first post I ever made here.
I still stand by it. Do I think it will work? Not likely. Do I think they have a vested interest in getting AQ under control? Yup, because of their own terrorist “issues”. Do I think the Russians, at least, would want Kosovo thrown under a bus? Yup.
I don’t know if it’s recoverable at this point. Certainly not until this administration is gone.
But it’s good to hear McCain talking about, yunno, actually working with other people.
BTW - remember that everyone thought the idea of actually trying to talk to the Chinese was ridiculous 40ish years ago, too. Nixon did it. Opened up China in a big way, now, didn’t it? Or would you prefer we go back to the old way?
The international community simply cannot be counted on.
(a) Because of the Bush administration, that’s the way the international community largely feels about us.
(b) At one point in time, they could be counted on, even France. Who was it that sent AWACS to cover US airspace after 9/11? Europe, including France.
(c) Bosnia, Kosovo and Afghanistan are NATO missions, not US missions. So it appears that there are contexts in which someone other than the US gets involved.
Thank you for typifying the arrogant american for our foreign readers. You can be their poster child.
Off to bed now. Job interview in the morning. Probably won’t post again until tomorrow afternoon some time.
(a) Because of the Bush administration, that’s the way the international community largely feels about us.
More likely that our acting in our own nation’s interests makes other nations feel that theirs are threatened.
(b) At one point in time, they could be counted on, even France. Who was it that sent AWACS to cover US airspace after 9/11? Europe, including France.
How nice that they are so helpful when there’s no chance of being shot at.
(c) Bosnia, Kosovo and Afghanistan are NATO missions, not US missions. So it appears that there are contexts in which someone other than the US gets involved.
Bosnia and Kosovo are prime examples of how ineffective the Europeans are. They had to beg us for help on a situation in their own backyard. As for Afghanistan, relations with our allies are anything but harmonious. Apparently, NATO’s European “partners” can’t share enough of the burden because they decided to spend more time creating socialist paradises than capable military forces. You expect these people to save the world?
See, what gets me is; what if an American president does everything he can to get international assistance for a problem that threatens American interests by going to the UN, meeting with regional leaders, and everything that John Kerry and John McCain want to do and the international community still refuses to help because of a fear of retaliation from terrorists, a backlash of domestic support, or outright corruption?
What do we do then? Do we just let our own interests suffer simply because corrupt foreign administrations like those of Vladimir Putin or Jacques Chirac dictate when the United States may or may not act? That is the point that Rush was making.
Bottom line we will always be hated until we are not number one.
And here we go with the ‘poor me’ meme that the world doesn’t support the US in Iraq because we don’t like you personally. Manwhore is never going to be convinced that the rest of the world isn’t resentful and jealous of the United States, and it’s this petty jealousy that drives each countrys own foreign policy decisions.
Talking about Iraq specifically, the ‘rest of the world’ (to use a useless collective term) didn’t think that the US presented a good enough case for an invasion. Pure and simple. 5 years on, and the rest of the world was arguably right. Look it up. There are countless articles written by oponents of the war at the time, countelss debates in parliament about the need to go to war or not, and they all have valid misgivings about Bush’s plans.*
Or of course you could go on thinking that the only reason the US doesn’t have support for whatever it wants to do is that we’re all ‘pussies’ - I know Manwhore can’t be convinced.
*Oil for food scandal blah blah blah… I know…
It’s also interesting that the same people who will ridicule Democrats for talking about right-wing conspiracies are so quick to hop on the MSM conspiracy bandwagon.
What conspiracy? they dont even bother to hid it.
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Bottom line is we, the USA, will always be hated, period. Our freedom, what’s left of it, our capitalism, our fertile farmland, etc. This has not been helped by “W”, but bending over won’t help either. Start pumping petrol out of the Fauklands and tell OPEC to blow, start a new period of isolationism and let the rest of the world fall into muslim control.