Who Would Jesus Torture?
by Hal_10000
This is depressing:
A new poll released Thursday (Sept. 11) finds that nearly six in 10 white Southern evangelicals believe torture is justified, but their views can shift when they consider the Christian principle of the golden rule.
The poll, commissioned by Faith in Public Life and Mercer University, found that 57 percent of respondents said torture can be often or sometimes justified to gain important information from suspected terrorists. Thirty-eight percent said it was never or rarely justified.
But when asked if they agree that “the U.S. government should not use methods against our enemies that we would not want used on American soldiers,” the percentage who said torture was rarely or never justified rose to 52 percent.
This boggles the mind. Sullivan links it to the legacy of slavery, but that’s problematic. Most pre-war southerners did not own slaves and many of the South’s current inhabitants moved there well after the war. I don’t think torture arises from slavery, but rather both arise from the same principle of dehumanization. If you believe that your faith will get you into heaven while everyone else’s lack thereof is sending them to hell, you have made unbelievers less than human. Any religion that posits its follower to be superior has condoned horror—the ancient Jews in Midian, the medieval Catholics during the Inquisition or fundamentalist Muslims today.
But it’s because of this pro-torture base that we find the following [PDF]:
Support for the unequivocal position [a ban on torture] was highest in Spain (82%), Great Britain (82%) and France (82%), followed by Mexico (73%), China (66%), the Palestinian territories (66%), Poland (62%), Indonesia (61%), and the Ukraine (59%). In five countries either modest majorities or pluralities support a ban on all torture: Azerbaijan (54%), Egypt (54%), the United States (53%), Russia (49%), and Iran (43%). South Koreans are divided.
Yeah, I know. Who wants to be like those idiot Europeans? Much better to be like those forward-thinking Egyptians.
Update: I wanted to add something. If the evangelical ministers of this country—those with thousands or millions of followers—were to issue a statement that torture, in any form, is categorically opposed to teaching of Christ (which it is), the torture debate would be over. Both parties would have no choice but to reaffirm our commitment to opposing torture. Moreover, it would shift the numbers above by at least double digits. That they have not—with a few notable exceptions—is a travesty.
Comments
You should have linked to the actual survey, because you missed the funny part:
Two thirds of John McCain’s supporters say
torture can often or sometimes be justified,
compared to only 46% of Obama supporters
and undecided voters.
Those damn Obama supporters! Obviously, half of them just hate skerry brown people--except for the guy they’re voting for.
Well, Hal, when you wrote:
Posted by Hal_10000 on 09/15/08 at 02:54 PM from
I did see that, Thrill. One of the big untold storie of this election is how much of Obama’s support is religious in nature.
I can only assume that you meant to post that reply here.
Now, with your fear-mongering about Evangelicals on the table, how do you explain 46% of Obama supporters supporting torture when the numbers simply don’t add up with regard to Evangelical Obama supporters? See for yourself:
Among white evangelicals in the South who
are registered voters, 65% support Republican
John McCain, 14% support Democrat Barack
Obama, and 21% remain undecided. These
findings are consistent with the recent Time
Magazine poll (08/04/2008) that showed 66%
supporting McCain, 17% supporting Obama,
and 17% undecided among white evangelicals
nationwide.
Those terrifying white Evangelicals that you guys are worked up into a permanent pissy-pants marathon about are not responsible for the remarkably high number of Obama supporters that support torture. I’d like to see Sullivan explain that. Or anyone here, for that matter.
Just from what i seen of the people i work with, Most of whom seem to support Obamma, and think its ok to beat it out of those raghead sunabitchs.
Oh and most dont care for Bush or religion in general.
the really odd thing is the the hallelujah table, the religious ones, and my table, the right wing gun nuts, have discussed this matter and both are very much agisnt it.
So WTF>?
Oh BTW i work in Illinois.
I wanted to add something. If the evangelical ministers of this country—those with thousands or millions of followers—were to issue a statement that torture, in any form, is categorically opposed to teaching of Christ (which it is), the torture debate would be over
The Bible and Jesus have nothing to say about how a government should conduct itself, even with torture. Jesus’ instructions are for individuals day-to-day life, not government policy.
Dirk:
Don’t let the facts get in the way of a good religious rant by the evangihaters here. They have no idea what Jesus and Paul instructed Christians regarding participation in government, let alone slavery. It doesn’t fit their preconceptions.
were to issue a statement that torture, in any form, is categorically opposed to teaching of Christ (which it is), the torture debate would be over
Show me one line of scripture that has God or Jesus or anyone dictating how governments should operate, otherwise it should just go to show you how little you know about the Bible and why you should refrain from speaking on topics you don’t understand.
Religious people are fundamentally stupid people, why should people who believe in a whole myriad of silly things even be heard when discussing a serious topic like torture?
It would be far more accurate to call them brainwashed....
If you believe that your faith will get you into heaven while everyone else’s lack thereof is sending them to hell, you have made unbelievers less than human. Any religion that posits its follower to be superior has condoned horror—the ancient Jews in Midian, the medieval Catholics during the Inquisition or fundamentalist Muslims today.
Christianity doesn’t teach that Christians are “superior” to anyone. And if you want to talk about faith systems giving people a false sense of superiority what about the point that Paul86 just proved with this painfully close minded statement.
Religious people are fundamentally stupid people, why should people who believe in a whole myriad of silly things even be heard when discussing a serious topic like torture?
Show me one line of scripture that has God or Jesus or anyone dictating how governments should operate,
‘do unto others....
‘do unto others....
Not exactly quoteing scripture. As a matter of fact there is not a single passage in the Bible that has the phrase “do unto others” in it. The closest thing I can find to that phrase in the Bible is Mark 12:9
What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others.
Which of course has nothing to do with what we are talking about.
Just remember Ed, the next time you want to say something about the Bible, take a deep long breath and remember that you know nothing about it and stop yourself.
Just remember Ed, the next time you want to say something about the Bible, take a deep long breath and remember that you know nothing about it and stop yourself.
Not bothering to read the bible is probably a good thing considering the rancid bigotry in it, not to mention all of the fairy tales in it that even a child would probably not believe without extra indoctrination.
Not bothering to read the bible is probably a good thing considering the rancid bigotry in it
“Rancid bigotry”? You mean like this?
Religious people are fundamentally stupid people, why should people who believe in a whole myriad of silly things even be heard when discussing a serious topic
Have you ever even read the Bible?
“Rancid bigotry”? You mean like this?
If you think that’s bad then i shudder to think what you thought of the bible.
Have you ever even read the Bible?
Unfortunately yes, it was however not of my own choosing, the only thing i will say is that it’s amazing how far the goal posts have been moved by the theists, Heaven is no longer in the clouds - just a metaphor for the delusional people who believe in the whole scam.
Arguing over the finer points of religion is like arguing over the finer points of a childs book about knights and dragons.
Both parties would have no choice but to reaffirm our commitment to opposing torture.
Perhaps you didn’t hear, the United States does not torture.
Not exactly quoteing scripture. As a matter of fact there is not a single passage in the Bible that has the phrase “do unto others” in it. The closest thing I can find to that phrase in the Bible is Mark 12:9
Matthew 7:12?
Therefore, whatever you want people to do for you, do the same for them, because this summarizes the Law and the Prophets.
Some versions translate it as to include “Do unto you”. That’s the origin of the “Do unto others” saying, as I’m sure you know, so arguing it’s not there at all seems a little pedantic.
Matthew 7:12 says “So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.”
I continue to be amazed at you hypocrites. You lash out at the Bible, citing its supposed “rancid bigotry” or calling Christians “stupid people.” You consistently reinforce my own faith with your hatred, so keep it up douchebags.
Guys, paul86 is a 9/11 Truther. I don’t care if you believe that elves live in the cabinet beneath your sink, nothing is more desperately ridiculous than being a 9/11 Truther.
Don’t fuss about him.
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Since the point of torture is actually torture, not gathering information, I think the root of the problem is that criminals aren’t seen to be appropriately punished in modern society.
Get a good lawyer, and get away with murder, or perhaps just pay a fine or get probation. This sort of thing strikes the average person as very wrong, so they want to make up for it by punishing the next offender excessively.
Your average evangelical is much less likely to be the person that believes in the modern version of justice, so these are the very people that will support the extreme position.