The Truth About Pat
by Lee
Sullivan has a link-rich post up on the possible Tillman murder. The Delta theory postulated there seems plausible to me, but I’d be interested in hearing what certain other people on this blog (and you know who you are) have to say about this.
Update: A couple of people have asked me to elaborate on what the “certain other people” comment means. Without going into any specific detail, there are participants on this blog (more than one) who have specific knowledge of these types of activities, or at the very least have knowledge which would be germane to the discussion, knowledge which can only be learned by doing, if you catch my drift.
Comments
Even Delta Force shooters are going to have a damn hard time putting three bullets fired on burst mode into a head sized object at 50 yards. On bursts, the barrell moves around too much with each successive round and at 50 yards every little move in the angle of the barrel results in a pretty significant different point of impact for the bullets.
The “lets kill the atheist” theory has a lot going for it. Funditards are notorious in their hatred of public atheists and death threats are common.
On the other hand, these people that make these statements about marksmanship are just clueless. I think they’ve watched far too many movies about snipers. I’ve known many, many run of the mill deer hunters that could easily do the shooting that he describes as requiring a Delta Force sniper. Shooting really isn’t that difficult as such close range, but city-slickers all seem to think it is.
I don’t think anyone would actually do it in burst mode; 3 fast, successive shots on semi-auto from a solid rest would be far more likely.
Whatever happened to the guy Tillman told to quit sniveling?
If my theory is correct, the Delta guys could have fired the shots - a three-round burst to the forehead from 50 yards is impossible for normal soldiers and Rangers, but is probably an easy shot for those guys.
I call bullshit--this idiot has watched “Blackhawk Down” and “Jarhead” one too many times and is projecting that visceral experience onto his theory. For a 3-round burst to impact an area as small as a human forehead, even at a relatively close distance of 50 yards and with night vision and a scope, would require the stabilization of the weapon in such a way that recoil would be rendered negligible. It’s obvious this guy hasn’t even fired a SuperSoaker, much less an M-16.
The only reason this is gaining any traction at all in the blogosphere is because it fits right in with these folks’ general conspiracy-theory mentality. It’s easier for these people to believe the “Tillman was singled out and killed for his politics” rather than being the victim of battlefield confusion because the latter is just too simple and obvious-- Tillman MUST have been killed for nefarious reasons, because Bush=Hitler!
Sullivan is blocked by Websense here at work, so I’m going to put down my opinion on the subject sans AS’s posting:
Tillman was killed by accidental friendly fire, and the military didn’t want or need the bad press that this would have caused. So, they tried to cover it up, and got burned on it.
Sullivan is just putting anything out there to stick it to Bush....like he has for 3 years.
Maybe it was one of the many thousands of our private security “contractors” we have over there, who most people think are just driving supply trucks. Some of those guys will shoot at just about anything and they don’t have to answer to anybody.
Of course, I believe the friendly-fire/cover-up theory myself. That’s the most likely explanation.
I agree with the friendly fire/ failed cover-up theory as well.
Sullivan’s athesist theory is about as pluasible as suggesting that Tillman was killed because he played the wrong kind of football. If atheists in the military were killed because of being atheists, there’d be dead soldiers from Afghanistan to Rahmstein AFB to Okinawa.
I read Sullivan’s article. I was right. He is just bashing Bush’s religion some more, and blaming Bush for Tillman’s death to boot.
Sullivan is starting to really slip into some serious BDS. Why did I even go over there and read the article?
I read Sullivan’s article. I was right. He is just bashing Bush’s religion some more, and blaming Bush for Tillman’s death to boot.
What? Dude, you act like a fucking wounded puppy sometimes. He’s “bashing” poor old Bush, and he’s “bashing” Christianity. Boo hoo. Anyone who ever dares have the slightest criticism of either of these two subjects is seen as “bashing” or somehow being unfair.
I mean, an Christian killing an atheist liberal? My God, who could ever think of such a thing? The whole idea is so preposterous that “bashing” an innocent doe-eyes waif-life president is the only conceivable explanation.
I mean, for fuck’s sake. This guy is the PRESIDENT OF THE FUCKING UNITED STATES OF FUCKING AMERICA and you threat him like he’s an 8 year old girl at a dance recital. How about you start demanding the president act like the fucking president instead of spending countless hours defending everything he does just so you can differentiate yourself from Amurka-hating libruls and them evil Demmycrats. Because, after all, if it wasn’t for these two groups Iraq would be the world’s model democracy at this point.
John, a challenge. You, unlike your gutless pussy friend Drumwaster, usually man up and respond to your challenges. I want to you to quote Sullivan’s words and explicitly detail how they constitute “bashing” of either Bush or Christianity. I also want you to explain how he’s blaming Tillman’s death on Bush.
They’re your claims. Backing them up should be a piece of cake.
If the delta force idea is remotely plausible, I suspect three different soldiers all firing their weapons at once to be a far more likely scenario. It’d make more sense, especially if he was their only target, and they were performing more of an ambush. Three men fire from in front of him, all three score a hit to the forehead.
But honestly, who fucking knows, this is all random speculation… the details are so lacking that jumping to any sort of conclusion is just intellectually irresponsible.
...and we’ll probably never know. What we do know is that Tillman is dead and we fucked up both Afghanistan and Iraq. Those are known knowns.
And Bill Walsh died. Damn. That man was responsible for a lot of my sports enjoyment. Sad day.
Murdering a fellow soldier because he was against the Iraq war AND because he was an atheist, I know you don’t even believe this Lee. I know you and AS are simpatico in your Bush bashing but surely you can see this drival for what it is.
Even Delta Force shooters are going to have a damn hard time putting three bullets fired on burst mode into a head sized object at 50 yards. On bursts, the barrell moves around too much with each successive round and at 50 yards every little move in the angle of the barrel results in a pretty significant different point of impact for the bullets.
Exactly right. In burst the line trajectory of the wounds would be obvious at autopsy, and in single fire the victim would have to be in zero gravity with each shot spaced in time to allow recoil.
This makes some sense to me, although we shouldn’t dismiss the chance he was murdered. Tillman was a star and might have aroused jealousy or resentment. He also opposed the Iraq war and was a proud atheist. In Bush’s increasingly sectarian military, that might have stirred hostility.
I didn’t know it was Bush’s military, but nevertheless a direct implication of the man’s responsiblity in this event.
Murdering a fellow soldier because he was against the Iraq war AND because he was an atheist, I know you don’t even believe this Lee.
I can’t speak for the motivation. Maybe it was because he was an atheist, maybe Tillman was a fucking prick, who knows? But soldiers killing fellow soldiers isn’t exactly unheard of.
Do I believe it? No, because there isn’t enough evidence. Should this be looked into? Absolutely, this is a capital murder charge if it turns out to be true.
I didn’t know it was Bush’s military, but nevertheless a direct implication of the man’s responsiblity in this event.
What he has said, and this is undeniably true, that the military has become more religious and sectarian under Bush’s watch. It’s not a direct implication of Bush.
That change in the military could be a result of the impact 9/11 has had on new recruits. Who knows why, really?
Do I believe it? No, because there isn’t enough evidence. Should this be looked into? Absolutely, this is a capital murder charge if it turns out to be true.
Given the obfuscation in the initial investigation and the cover up thss far, I doubt we will ever know.
What he has said, and this is undeniably true, that the military has become more religious and sectarian under Bush’s watch
I would like you to prove that assertion. I will grant you that some higher up military commanders may have felt more at ease discussing their religion under Bush ( I still think this should be kept to themselves) the President was not the cause of their religious faith, just the free expression therof, however wrong that expression is. As for the religious make up of the entire military force, who the hell knows, its still secular.
A point not to be lost here - medical examiners place the shooter at ten yards, yet Sgt. O’Neal clearly remembers the shooters being significantly further away. If it was just friendly fire, could a soldier using an M-16 score that kind of grouping while being closer to fifty yards than ten?
If not, and from what people have said here it seems unlikely, then something else occurred. Maybe Sgt. O’Neal’s memory is faulty and the shooters were closer. Maybe the opinions of the medical examiners were wrong and the shooter could have been further away. Or maybe something more dastardly occurred.
I’m not sure I’m ready to toss murder charges around at this point, but the disparity in testimony and the appearance of these never-before-mentioned snipers really shows how much has been kept from the public. I’m for keeping all options, even the unsavory ones, on the table. More investigation is needed.
What he has said, and this is undeniably true, that the military has become more religious and sectarian under Bush’s watch. It’s not a direct implication of Bush.
That usually happens in war, men who never set foot in a church find there way there after a few battles.
3 shots to the head? hmmm
were these frontal hits or side hits?
at close range a 3rd burst from a M-4, possible, but given the physics of muzzle climb recoil and inertia.. oh and the first round would have defiantly changed the bodies trajectory… this is very iffy..
Now shooting from a bench rest or a good solid rest, a 3rnd burst in to a head is doable
now 3 shooters as stated above is more likely...or shall i say more balsiticaly possible..
I havent seen any details, but i do remember reading that tillamn and his Afgani companion were coming over a rise when they got hit…
but then again there are some REALLY good shooters out there..
we need more details to make a good solid conclusions..
sullivan seems to be grasping at straws.
It’s not a direct implication of Bush.
It may not be direct, but on a cursory reading it would seem that way. Especially by anyone with preconceived notions about Sully. He makes some salient points sometimes. However, there is no denying that Sully is a master of using reader emails to imply things he would not otherwise put on his blog under his own name. He is just as biased as any other pundit and just as skilled in the art of subterfuge.
I can’t really back this feeling up. It’s just the impression I sometimes get. Even though I agree with some of what he says.
sullivan seems to be grasping at straws.
I don’t see him as grasping at straws. I see him saying “Hey, some people experienced in this sort of stuff have raised some questions. Given all of the past cover-up of the Tillman issue, we should have a real investigation.”
Nothing about blaming Bush, nothing abut hating Christianity, nothing.
Are you guys seriously suggesting that it is beyond the realm of possibility that someone, in the heat of a war zone, got pissed at Tillman (especially if he was running his mouth about something) and popped a few rounds into him? I’m not saying it’s possible or even likely.
Ask yourself this: if the religion in question was Islam and not Christianity, would any of this discussion be taking place? I think the issue is that Christians don’t want to admit that their particular Sky Pixie is just as likely to provoke violence as other Sky Pixies, and thus externalize this into anger against godless heathens like Sullivan and me.
Personally I think his troops pulled a Neidermeyer on him (for whatever reason) and then his superiors tried to cover it up. There were people who claimed that Tillman was some sort of a neo-Nazi, but I didn’t buy that and I’m not sure I buy into this religon conspiracy either. I think his men just thought he was your run-of-the mill prick CO who was getting star treatment and resented him for it.
Posted by Lee on 07/30/07 at 05:43 PM from United States
sullivan seems to be grasping at straws.
I don’t see him as grasping at straws. I see him saying “Hey, some people experienced in this sort of stuff have raised some questions. Given all of the past cover-up of the Tillman issue, we should have a real investigation.”
Like i said we need more details, such as how did the rest of the unit feel about him..
Hell it is possible, its happened before..
It just seems that Sulivain is quick to blame the fundis
Hell could be someone was piss at him for his STAR attuide and being a prick. OR! he compromised the mission or some how fucked up...which drew the ire of someone on the team…
Given the way the Army has covered this up, we may never know.
What he has said, and this is undeniably true, that the military has become more religious and sectarian under Bush’s watch. It’s not a direct implication of Bush.
When did this happen? I’m of the opinion that when people confront mortality it’s a natural chain of events. Bush can say he’s religious, but by law he’s not allowed to impose it on others. Anyone who’s suffered in this way needs to run to court and collect thier millions for this monumental fuck-up.
If this guy is the atheist they say, he was still dedicated to the cause of fighting an enemy, and willing to see it through. Murder and foul play are very serious things. Even if I hated a christian for being a christian I couldn’t bring myself to kill him. he’d need to show me he really is aggressive about killing me first.
But soldiers killing fellow soldiers isn’t exactly unheard of
When they were mobilizing to invade Grenada my brother was assigned to an Army element that wasn’t deployed, but got ready to go, to the point of loading up the cargo planes and everyone sitting on the flightline ready to move out.
One of the stories he tell is about a particular E-6 or E-7 that was generally considered to be fucking stupid and grossly incompetent. He was going to be in charge of about 30 or 40 men, including my brother. While this group was loading up the C-140, one of them sort of casually mentioned that the very first thing he was going to do when they hit the beach was “kill that incompetent fat fuck”. Apparently everybody else had the same idea - either kill him right off the bat or have him manage to get them all killed.
It just seems that Sulivain is quick to blame the fundis
I don’t see it as blaming the fundies. Nowhere does he claim this is what happened. Earlier in the post he stated that more investigation needs to be done. But it’s a fact that Tilman was a leftie politically. He was also a celebrity, which might have rubbed some people the wrong way. And, given the noticeable increase in spirituality and sectarianism in the military which has taken place under Bush’s watch (NOTE: this was not planned by Bush, but it has happened) I don’t see it outside the realm of the pale that someone resented him, didn’t like his political views, or something of that nature and decided, hey, we’re in a war zone, fuck it.
Given the way the Army has covered this up, we may never know.
Exactly. The fact that they covered all this shit up to begin with lends credence to the idea that there is something more to the story.
I’m not sure I’m ready to toss murder charges around at this point, but the disparity in testimony and the appearance of these never-before-mentioned snipers really shows how much has been kept from the public. I’m for keeping all options, even the unsavory ones, on the table. More investigation is needed.
Bingo. That’s all I’m saying and all Sullivan is saying.
Okay, people, we are really starting to explore the studio space of crazy here…
What he has said, and this is undeniably true, that the military has become more religious and sectarian under Bush’s watch.
Granted, my own experience is somewhat limited, but religion is somewhere near the bottom of personal priorities among the people I’ve served with, right around “getting new PT gear”. So I’m not quite sure where this assertion is coming from.
I think his men just thought he was your run-of-the mill prick CO who was getting star treatment and resented him for it.
Tillman was a Specialist at the time of his death, not an NCO--the promotion to Corporal was posthumous. Granted, he could have been designated a squad leader, but regardless, all the indications we have to this point was that Tillman was well-respected. Pat’s brother Kevin hasn’t exactly been soft on his criticism for how this has been handled and is clearly not afraid of being honest about his opinions; if he even suspected the possibility that his brother was fragged by his own fellow troops, don’t you think he would have mentioned it by now?
Look, folks, this speculation is getting into the realm of the “Loose Change” idiots who think that a government that has no problem carrying out an operation that killed 3,500 civilians with military precision and used al-Qaeda as cover to justify a war, yet can’t explain how this same government wouldn’t immediately sniff out the conspirators plans to expose the fiendish plot and snuff it out before said expose became public. Like it or not, people in the armed forces just don’t cap a guy because he’s an asshole, and thus far, the only documented instance we have a soldier attacking his fellow troops based off of religious differences was the Muslim who threw the grenade into the tent.
I realize that the possibility that some Christian soldiers plugged an atheist is a salivating prospect for some here because it confirms your anti-religious prejudices in general. But there has to be a point where common sense begins to override the need to appropriate atheist martyrs. And to be quite honest, this isn’t the first time Sullivan has “floated” the wacko conspiracy theories of others as a means to “start a conversation.” Someone as supposedly as intellectual as Sullivan should damn well be aware that such provocation does nothing but encourage the type of intellectually and emotionally immature discourse that makes people even more paranoid than they already are; either he actually believes this tripe, in which case he needs to seriously evaluate whether he can even hope to call himself “conservative"(last I checked, we tend not to buy into nuttty conspiracy theories), or he is doing this just to stir shit up, in which case he ends up undermining the times when he does make good arguments. Why should anyone take him seriously when he subscribes to this kind of nonsense?
Granted, my own experience is somewhat limited, but religion is somewhere near the bottom of personal priorities among the people I’ve served with, right around “getting new PT gear”. So I’m not quite sure where this assertion is coming from.
Here’s a few.
Jews intimidated by Christians at Air Force Academy
Then there’s General Boykin/ (My friend who did a tour in Iraq as an Army Ranger worships Boykin, who is a legend in the specwar community, but even he was disgusted by his remarks.)
And then there’s prayer inserted into an appropriations bill.
These are just a few examples I could find here at work. There are tons more. Generals sending out religious election material to the troops under his command, non-Christian chaplains harassed, that sort of thing.
I realize that the possibility that some Christian soldiers plugged an atheist is a salivating prospect for some here because it confirms your anti-religious prejudices in general.
No, that’s not it at all. It’s simply speculation, based on Tilman’s beliefs, that maybe he got popped for badmouthing Jesus. Maybe he didn’t. Maybe he got popped for some other reason. But for one specwarrior to kill another it’s got to be over a pretty serious reason, and religion more than any other force will drive men to kill.
then why bring up the “sectarian” nature that is growing in the ranks?I don’t see it as blaming the fundies. Nowhere does he claim this is what happened. Earlier in the post he stated that more investigation needs to be done.
anyways…
yeah i read somewhere, that he was a big fan of Norm Chomsky.But it’s a fact that Tilman was a leftie politically.
Has there been any indication that he was having problems with other solider due to his Poetical or non-religious beliefs?
Has there been any indication that he was having problems with other solider due to his Poetical or non-religious beliefs?
Nope. It’s all speculation at this point. But for the sake of discussion let’s assume he was murdered. I’d say that the two most likely reasons would be
a) His atheism
b) His political beliefs
Or maybe some combination of the two. Like I said, I don’t see one specwar guy intentionally killing another unless it was a crime of passion, and religion and/or politics arouse passions more than just about anything, except for one guy fucking another guy’s wife.
money, Pussy, power, clash of personalities.... anything…Maybe he got popped for some other reason. But for one specwarrior to kill another it’s got to be over a pretty serious reason, and religion more than any other force will drive men to kill.
oh look at what has been resurrected!?
Pussy, power
Reminds me of the Iggy Pop song.
Since we are trashing the reputation of someone I considered a “hero”, with zero facts, lets really unbridle the imagination. Maybe it was because he was gay and was putting the moves on his buddies, or he was taken out by a Seahawks fan (can’t trust them lili livered Cardinals), or how about his dick was bigger than everybody elses in his squad, causing real enmity.
Each of these are just as plausible as the atheist/political belief angle.
Call me naive or whatever, but I don’t believe for a minute that Tillman was killed by a fellow soldier because of his non-religious beliefs.
Nope. It’s all speculation at this point. But for the sake of discussion let’s assume he was murdered. I’d say that the two most likely reasons would be
a) His atheism
b) His political beliefs
I don’t believe that. He was there because he wanted to be there, to fight an enemy who had attacked his country. He was a patriot to the highest degree. Plenty of others in the military aren’t religious and aren’t Republicans, and it doesn’t get them killed by their fellow soldiers.
Since we are trashing the reputation of someone I considered a “hero”, with zero facts, lets really unbridle the imagination. Maybe it was because he was gay and was putting the moves on his buddies, or he was taken out by a Seahawks fan (can’t trust them lili livered Cardinals), or how about his dick was bigger than everybody elses in his squad, causing real enmity.
Each of these are just as plausible as the atheist/political belief angle.
Exactly.
Sorry it took me so long...as some of you know, I am in a bagpipe band, and this was the last practice before they perform in the Dublin Irish Festival in Dublin, OH. If you’re close, go have a look-see.
OK...let’s see. I’ll replay what Lee asked for here:
John, a challenge. You, unlike your gutless pussy friend Drumwaster, usually man up and respond to your challenges. I want to you to quote Sullivan’s words and explicitly detail how they constitute “bashing” of either Bush or Christianity. I also want you to explain how he’s blaming Tillman’s death on Bush.
They’re your claims. Backing them up should be a piece of cake.
First off, that was a compliment. Thanks, Lee!
Secondly, I’ll respond, but I’ll say this first: Using this one post of Sullivan’s to prove his opinion of Bush is not unlike pulling a single leaf off of a 100-foot tall tree and using it to explain why the tree is rotted in the trunk. However, I’ll do my best.
1. Money quote:
In Bush’s increasingly sectarian military, that might have stirred hostility.
On it’s own, and even without the greater context of what Sullivan has been posting for the past 3 years, this statement is still clear. It clearly implies that the armed forces has become segregated into religious and non-religious castes, and that it’s the fault, whether overtly or otherwise, of Bush. Sullivan is clearly stating that Bush has transformed the military into what he considers a ‘Christianist’ force, bigoted against other Americans because of their religions.
Now, putting it into the context of Sullivan’s other writings over time, and the meaning is reinforced. Heavily implied is the notion that Bush purposefully developed an intrenched religious prejudice into the military. It is clear that Sullivan believes that such violence against people that don’t practice Bush’s version of Christianity is probable. That implication is staggering, and so far-fetched as to strain belief.
Reading the SI article itself, we read that Tillman was well-liked and respected. The word “Atheist” doesn’t even appear in the article. We are introduced to the possibility of murder because of Bush’s religion by Sullivan itself, not by the source article.
So AS is the one that threw Bush and Christianity into the mix, not the writer of the SI article. If anyone were to read the two articles separately, as opposed to simply reading Sullivan’s post, they would see this clearly. Sullivan is using this article to advance his own ideas about Bush, not to accurately convey the information in the article.
All that being said, I believe very strongly that Sullivan’s past articles...especially since February 2004...are clear enough where his distain for the current POTUS is concerned. This article is an example, though by no means the end-all of it.
This might not be the greatest rebuttal, but it’s what I believe. Sullivan introduced the atheism and Bush angles into his post just to stick another ‘evil’ onto the President.
And Bill Walsh died. Damn. That man was responsible for a lot of my sports enjoyment. Sad day.
Yep, the Team Of The Eighties, Go Joe Mo!
Sad day, indeed.
Where to start?
I’ll give it a shot.
First of all, Delta doesn’t “exist”, but if they did, thier proximity to an area like this would be expected. Also, if they did exist, they wouldn’t carry M-16’s. M-16’s are relatively reliable and relatively accurate, but to the standards of Delta,( which doesn’t exist) they are crap. A Delta soldier ( if he existed, and yes I said “he” as no women are Delta operators) could easily, easily score a head shot from 100 meters or more.
If Tillman was unfortunate enough to poke his head up over a hill to sneek a peek at the bad guys, staring into the face of a Delta ambush, it is possible that three operators simultaenously put a round into his head.
Thaty being said, it is very unlikely. The chances of three operators pulling the trigger at exactly the same moment at a target showing only half his face ( his forehead , hidden beneath a Kevlar helment , a very common silouette to all soldiers) is nearly none. The impact of the first round to hit him would have ridirected the position of his body, meaning that the two other shots sould have been had to have been aimed somewhere else for the bullets to have landed off target, exactly where the first bullet struck.
This is simply impossible.
I think Sully is merely “suggesting” this scenerio based on his preconceived notions of an Army under Bush. Sure, you can recite stats all day about the religious propensity of the modern US Army, but those stats are far removed from the reality on the ground.
I can’t say whether Tillman was murdered, or killed accidentally. I can say that some folks wantthis to be Bush’s fault. Maybe even sub- consciously. The whole secular-Tillman-was-an-atheist theory has obviously been manufactured by a mind with a dislike for Bush.
This is classic BDS. Once you hit that point, you can Logically tie every single bad thing right back to the Oval Office, no matter how tenuous the relation. Every BDS’er has thier own reasons. For Sully, it’s the Gay marriage thing. For the rest, I really can’t understand it a bit.
Thank you, Para. You said it better than I ever could.
I am in a bagpipe band
Must resist...piper jokes bubbling up...must get strength…
Al kidding aside (make bass player jokes if you want), how does one get started with the bagpipes? Are they for rent or do you have to shell out a grand to find out you suck?
This might not be the greatest rebuttal, but it’s what I believe
I think you said it pretty good yourself.
Yep, the Team Of The Eighties, Go Joe Mo!
I was fortunate enough to see every home game during their 15 and 1 season. He was a great man.
This is classic BDS. Once you hit that point, you can Logically tie every single bad thing right back to the Oval Office, no matter how tenuous the relation. Every BDS’er has thier own reasons. For Sully, it’s the Gay marriage thing. For the rest, I really can’t understand it a bit.
You guys and your fucking BDS. You’re like liberals who cry racism at anyone who dares disagree with their social agenda. Everyone who strongly disagrees with Bush is “deranged.”
I can’t say whether Tillman was murdered, or killed accidentally. I can say that some folks wantthis to be Bush’s fault. Maybe even sub- consciously. The whole secular-Tillman-was-an-atheist theory has obviously been manufactured by a mind with a dislike for Bush.
Uh, no. It was from his family, who were sick of the Bush administration portraying their loved one as something he was not, a gung-ho right winger. He wasn’t. He was, apparently, very much a man of the left. He was an atheist. I realize that this results in a DOES NOT COMPUTE in many of your minds, but it’s what his family said and they knew him best. (Jessica Lynch also resented the myth-making that went around her rescue, too.)
See, this is the thing about the administration. They’re the politicians who cried wolf. They, as a matter of policy, lie about EVERYTHING. Then, when they get caught lying, they deal with the damage control. If they just told the fucking truth people would give them the benefit of the doubt.
We have been lied to continually for six years. How many more times are you going to give the benefit of the doubt to people who are blatantly lying to you?
Gripeboy, you can get what’s called a practice chanter for $50-100 (maybe less off of e-bay) and buy a tutorial book. It takes a year or so to get from the chanter to the bagpipes, so if there is a mass of suckitude, you know well before the real money is dropped!
As for Tillman....well, I think the article speaks volumes, and Sullivan’s article does for him as well.
Good night, all.
See, this is the thing about the administration. They’re the politicians who cried wolf. They, as a matter of policy, lie about EVERYTHING.
Everything? Lee?
C,mon.
How can you state something like that and not secretly wonder in your own mind that you might, just might have a slight case of BDS. Really.
Seriously , Lee. I make sense. You are sounding, well, brainwashed. We ALL think that Bush isn’t the guy we’d hoped he’d be, but damn, Lee, it just doesn’t make sense to slip into a world where the President of the United States is a super villian like you make him out to be.
a world where the President of the United States is a super villian like you make him out to be.
See, I’ve never said he was a super villain. Of all people you should know this. I wrote an entire post on this subject, based on a comment you left. Here’s what I said.
Bush isn’t bad, he’s weak. And weak men can be encouraged to do bad things.
I don’t think Bush knows enough about the niceties of Constitutional law to come up with this on his own. This is all Cheney. Bush, being a pathetically weak man, is easily manipulated.
I also think that, as president, he’s a pathological liar. I think as an individual he’s a decent guy. But I don’t trust a word that comes out of his mouth. He and his administration have gotten themselves buried in such a legal hole that they have to stay on script, no matter how ridiculous it may be.
And do you want to know why things are this way? Because they were convinced they were going to have a cakewalk in Iraq. Imagine if that had happened, and Iraq had been full of WMD. The Iraqi people immediately got together and formed and government, and Iraq is now the model democracy for the region. The Republicans would dominate government. Bush would getting his face carved on Mt. Rushmore.
You think they ever expected to be in a position where they’d be answering questions?
Beware the darkside you should. Control you it will.
BDS you have Consume you it does.
Good thread from all sides. Nice work in the comments Lee.
Sully threw that anti-atheist nonsense in a way that he can then deny he meant anything by it. Oh well, at least Sully didn’t accuse our guys of signing “Onward Christian Soldier” at the time.
Nope. It’s all speculation at this point. But for the sake of discussion let’s assume he was murdered. I’d say that the two most likely reasons would be
a) His atheism
b) His political beliefs
Those are some mighty big assumptions there, Lee. And I think a lot of the commenters here have done a good job of exposing the idea that you’re buying into this theory because it jibes with the way you’ve been thinking.
Step back and think about that, Lee. I don’t think any of the people here have explicitly defended Bush, but you’re defending an obviously unhinged pundit who has suggested all sorts of crazy conspiracy theories when it comes to somebody who he unreasonably expected to endorse gay marriage.
Speaking as a former soldier, I knew of several atheists in my battalion alone. Anybody who really thinks that atheists are in any kind of danger because of their (lack of) beliefs is completely out to lunch.
Nope. It’s all speculation at this point. But for the sake of discussion let’s assume he was murdered. I’d say that the two most likely reasons would be
a) His atheism
b) His political beliefs
OR
c) He could have been a dick
d) Or a safety liability
e) Or banging someone else’s girl
f) Or owed someone money
g) Or had a crazy drunken night of gay sex , which his “partner” wished to permanently keep a secret.
I have an idea, since we’re all into speculating, let’s list as many reasons as we can think of why Tillman was murdered ( if indeed he was murdered)
It’s okay, it’s just speculation, it’s just the internets.
Have fun.
But for the sake of discussion let’s assume he was murdered.
Don’t you mean “For the sake of my cognitive dissonance?”
Isn’t it ironic that someone so against holding a faith in things that cannot be concretely proven (like, oh say, religion) would also postulate such a fantastic justification for their own preconceptions?
Okay, look. I’m not postulating a theory. I’m saying that some medical experts think that something fishy is going on. Now more people are joining that chorus.
Pat Tillman’s death has been one giant cover-up since it happened. Why? Friendly fire happens all the time in war, it’s an ugly fact. So why the secrecy?
Forget this is Pat Tillman, and imagine it’s an episode of Forensic Files. This is about the time some sheriff would be saying “Something didn’t sit right with me…”
Nobody is blaming religion. Nobody is blaming Bush. It could have been any number of reasons. HOWEVER, that being said, let’s go by what we know, which was that Tilman was left-wing politically, an atheist, and probably didn’t have a lot of good things to say about the Bush administration. If the anecdote is true of him telling a guy under fire to shut up, I can see how that would REALLY piss someone off.
My friend, the Army Ranger who did a year in Iraq, said that the unit Tilman was with were some of the most gung-ho motherfuckers in the entire Ranger corps. These are exactly the type of guys who probably wouldn’t take too kindly to a Chomsky-spouting atheist in their midst. And if they were operating with Delta (which makes perfect sense to me), then I can very easily imagine a situation where some guy snaps and loses it. And, given that the victim in this case was Pat Tillman, I can see why the Army would want to cover it up.
So, going by what we actually know, this is as reasonable a theory as any other. You perpetually wounded victims of Lee the evil Christ-hater, as usual, have to accuse me of secretly hoping that it was Bush and Jesus who conspired to kill him.
This investigating has been one giant lie after another ever since his death was first announced. This smells fishy, no matter what the cause or reason. It’s got nothing to do with “faith” or any other stupid thing you guys are going to accuse me of, and everything to do with basing a theory on the facts as we know them to be at this moment.
I guess conspiracy theories on its face is titillating but why adopted such extreme positions? To take something so innocuous as a religious position or a non suporter of the Iraq war and run with it wildly:
Chomsky-spouting atheist in their midst
That’s quite a stretch. You have no way of forming a factual opinion about this. We don’t know how vociferous he was in these beliefs or whether he mentioned them at all to a buddy or his whole squad. To paint him out as a “pain in the ass” for his beliefs is irresponsible.
Sometimes the answer is the one least complicated.
This investigating has been one giant lie after another ever since his death was first announced.
Its that incompetence on the part of the military thats been the problem all along.
I’m not postulating a theory.
Oh no? What’s this?
The Delta theory postulated there seems plausible to me,
Oh, you’re just agreeing with the postulated theory. Gotcha. There’s an ocean of nuance in there, there is.
I’m saying that some medical experts think that something fishy is going on.
Which medical expert put forth a motive theory?
At what point was George Bush mentioned from a factual context?
Yeah, that would have been Sully with you nodding your head in agreement. And here’s why:
But for one specwarrior to kill another it’s got to be over a pretty serious reason, and religion more than any other force will drive men to kill.
Where’s your data on this? It looks like rape and theft are number one and two, but maybe you have something you can pull out of your ass? (or Sully’s) Here’s a start, go through the guys on death row and show me how “religion more than any other force” drove them to their crimes.
To paint him out as a “pain in the ass” for his beliefs is irresponsible.
Yeah, it’s almost exactly like:
the Bush administration portraying their loved one as something he was not, a gung-ho right winger.
But then again, Lee isn’t really saying anything here. He’s just nodding his head, remember?
Nobody is blaming religion. Nobody is blaming Bush.
I guess you’re right. When Sullivan says, “In Bush’s increasingly sectarian military, that might have stirred hostility. I don’t know,” he’s not “blaming” religion or Bush, he’s merely suggesting that those might have been the contributing factors.
How very responsible of him not to buy into any insane conspiracy theories. Bravo, Andrew!
Australian movtives for murder
(I was going to put another link here, but I guess the The BJS is “blacklisted”. I wasn’t able to post the graph they have there.) None the less, I’m still looking for that elusive “religious motive” category.
It’s gotta be somewhere. It’s number one ‘cause Lee says so, right?
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I hope that only Sullivan’s demented paranoia could have dreamed up his theory. If he’s right, Christians are jihadists, and the modus operandi of the military is not “to leave no soldier behind.”
And furthermore, Tillman’s status as a superstar wouldn’t really extend itself off of the football field. He’s just another soldier on the field, dependent upon his fellow soldiers to deliver from harm.