Sullivan Nails Rove*

by Lee

Posted by HARLEY on 08/13/07 at 04:09 PM from

hey you all..  uh im in the midst of a major crisis here..
my niece, my wifes sister girl, ahs been abducted by her dad, they been gone since 7 pm last night and we fear that he was involved ina drug run, or something like wise bad ahs happed to them… i really dont know why im telling you all this , but those of you that believe in prayer… we could use some
and those that do not..
well..  positive thoughts and hope.. could be used too.
we got a amber alert issued to the law enforcement but so far nothing..
and given our local cops are lazy assholes… its just not good..
fuck..
talk to ya later..
at lest the media in this case and our local stat Rep has been more useful than the cops so far..
story, in the news.

oh yeah and fuck rove…

Posted by on 08/13/07 at 04:31 PM from

That’s horrible, Harley.

I’ll be hoping/wishing/praying for her swift and safe return.

Posted by on 08/13/07 at 04:41 PM from

Hope it all comes out well for you, Harley. All the best…

Posted by dakrat on 08/13/07 at 04:43 PM from

I’ve linked to Harley’s comment on Jim and Drum’s blog in the comments.  The news story Harley linked has a picture.  You never know who might be reading a blog and recognize a face.

Best wishes Harley.

Posted by on 08/13/07 at 04:47 PM from

I’ll be thinking of you, Harley. I wish there was more I could do.

Posted by on 08/13/07 at 05:04 PM from

Lots of kids here, but no one matching the description, Harley.
I really hope everything works out OK, Harley.

Posted by HARLEY on 08/13/07 at 05:37 PM from

think of the girl, her name is Karlie Grace.. her piece of shit father has ....well.. we still don’t know what happened but being this long..

Thanks dakrat..
thanks all..

Posted by West Virginia Rebel on 08/13/07 at 06:08 PM from

Rove knew how to play off of peoples’ fears. In that regard he was a great strategist in that he was able to get his boss what he wanted, but nothing more. Like Bush, he didn’t give a damn what other people thought, and the country got screwed as a result. But the Bushbots were like the guy who complains about the bad sex while going back to the same hooker who overcharges for her services. People that dumb generally get what they deserve-which is being the minority party for the foreseeable future.

Harley, I hope they find your niece...I don’t know if this will help but in situations like this where the “Father” is involved they generally don’t want to hurt the child. My guess is he’s holed up somewhere trying to figure out what the hell to do next. Prayers/best wishes for her safe return.

Posted by Para on 08/13/07 at 08:33 PM from

Sorry Harley, I’ll be thinkin’ good thoughts.

As for Sullivan on Rove, well, Sully is entitled to his opinion, but it differs from mine. I also am not a big fan of Rove, but I think Sully misses a lot.

For example:

Sully:

The man’s legacy is a conservative movement largely discredited and disunited

Para: I think there are at least two kinds of “conservatives”. That being said, Rove helped Bush gather more votes than even Reagan in the second election. Hell, Bush got the most votes ever. Rove may be a divider, now, in hindsight, while everyone including our gracious host, Lee, is against the President, two years ago, we all voted for him. ( including Lee and just about everyone even slightly conservative)

As for our “division” now, well, I don’t see many conservatives supporting any of the major Democratic hopefuls in great numbers. When the next election rolls around, it won’t be 70-30 for the Democrats, it’ll be 51-49 for the Democrats.

Moving on…

Sully:

a president with lower consistent approval ratings than any in modern history

and then…

Sully:

a generational shift to the Democrats

Para:  I don’t know how Sully qualifies this supposition, “generational” as in the age of voters, or as in the assertion that the Dems will be in power for a “generation” which I guess means 30 years or so. Either way, in the of the elections worked by Rove, his imput has helped conservatives win all but the last one, a record stretching back to Bush’s first win in the Texas Governor’s race. That’s a pretty good record, even if you hate the guy. Hell, even if you want him dead, you gotta admit he did an INCREDIBLE job of getting Bush re-elected.

Anyhoo....

Sully:

a resurgent al Qaeda,

Para: If we hadn’t knocked AQ on thier ass in the first place, there couldn’t be an “resurgence”. I hardly think this can remotely be placed at Rove’s feet. Remember, Lee said shit rolls up-hill.

And then there’s this…

Sully:

a fiscal legacy that means bankrupting America within a decade

Para: While I do think that the Republicans have been fiscally irresponsible, the “bankrupt in a decade” meme that we always hear is a referenced to Social Security and Medicare. For the record, Bush ( and Rove) tried to address this, a solution that wasn’t even entertained by the Democrats in Congress.

furthermore…

Sully:

and the poisoning of American religion with politics and vice-versa.

Para: I think I know what Andrew is trying to say here, but in reality, i think the talk of this merger of religion and politics is much worse than the realistic execution of it. I can’t cite a single example of how religon has personally crept into my life over the past 6 years. Yes, I know we all talk about it a lot, but aside from talking about it, ( like that jerk Senator the other day) , not much has really changed ( for me, anyway). Maybe that’s how we keep it at bay???

Then.....

Sully:

For this, he got two terms of power - which the GOP used mainly to enrich themselves, their clients and to expand government’s reach and and drain on the productive sector

Para: Again, we were warned to death in the run-up to the 2000 elections. Conservatives would use thier corn-pone style of cronyism to give all our money to big business. Under Bush, we whole economy has done very well considering we had to crawl out from under both the DOT-BOMB era and 9-11 financially. I know I’m making more than I did in 2000 and I’m not a big business person at all. This is another example of how talking about something endlessly has made it true for some people. 

Ummmm.....

Sully:

In the re-election, the president with a relatively strong economy, and a war in progress, managed to eke out 51 percent. Why? Because Rove preferred to divide the country and get his 51 percent, than unite it and get America’s 60. In a time of grave danger and war, Rove picked party over country. Such a choice was and remains despicable.

Para: Either that, or 49% voted Democrat like that often do. In fact, polls showed more people flipped to vote for Bush than Kerry. Even young people vote less as a percentage for the Democrats than the have historically in the past. I seriously doubt Sully read any of these reports, including the ones I did for Moorewatch as a rebuttal to Michael Moore’s assertions that he “made a difference”. At this point, the real facts are irrelevant, Sully is on a roll, kind of like Belushi in Animal House when he spoke about the German’s bombing Pearl Harbour. He’s just rolling with it.

It continues:

Sully:

Rove is one of the worst political strategists in recent times.

Para: That’s a pure opinion. I disagree. I want you to remember that Bush was already known as Chimpy McHaliburton before the last election. Rove got Chimpy re-elected. He may be the best strategist of all time.

There’s more....

Sully:

He took a chance to realign the country and to unite it in a war - and threw it away in a binge of hate-filled niche campaigning, polarization and short-term expediency.

Para: Does anyone remember the last election? Was “realignment” even a remote possibility? Not even close, Andrew. This is revisionist history at it’s most depressing. The Bush detractors start chiding the Administraiton for blowing how good we had it in 2004. Really, Sully. That’s just nuts! Do you remember the lathery, fevered reception of a little film called Fahrenheit 9-11? Do you remember the 60 city Slacker Tour? We we really right on the edge of coming together when Rove ruined it all by actually wooing Democrat Voters? Is that how it was?

I think not. 

Finally....

Sully:

His divisive politics and elevation of corrupt mediocrities to every branch of government has turned an entire generation off the conservative label. And rightly so.

Para: I guess we’ll just have to wait and see how the next election turns out. I’m sure that even if the Republicans retain the White House, and even gain a few seats in Congress you’ll see it as some sort of failure.

In the mean time, it’s interesting to watch how much Sully has changed.

Posted by Lee on 08/13/07 at 08:50 PM from

A few points, Para.

1) The only reason Bush won in 2004 was because Kerry was such a shitbag of a candidate.  The fact is that Kerry lost, Bush didn’t win.

2) The generational shift in the political landscape is in the attitudes of voters in their late teens 20s.  They oppose the GOP even on issues where the GOP is supposed to be paramount—economy, defense, etc.  There’s higher support for the war among young people than there is for the GOP fighting it.

Think of the GOP as a restaurant.  There’s been a huge scandal where it turns out that they’ve been knowingly serving tainted food to their customers.  That brand is screwed.  Nobody is going to eat there, no matter how good the new CEO might make the food.  What Rove has done is damage the GOP brand.  Nobody trusts anything they say.  I know I sure as hell don’t.

As I’ve said before, my mistake was in thinking that the Republicans were better than the Democrats.  They aren’t.  They’re just as corrupt, just as worthless.  They’ve taken the fine legacy of American conservatism and shit all over it to become the Party of Jesus.

You just wait and see how young people vote in 2008. 

3) A realignment was absolutely possible.  I realize it’s become passe to point out that the country was united after 9/11, but let us not forget that Bush still holds the record for the highest sustained approval ratings of any president in history.  With a little modesty and humility he could have played this like a master statesman.  Rove and the gang viewed this as carte blanche to steamroll their agenda.  That’s the distinction.  When it was time for finesse the administration chose brute force.

4) My prediction:  the Democrats will handily win the White House, and will retain both houses of Congress.  The GOP is going to have its nuts cut off.  (Of course, my political predictions are usually wrong so take that with a grain of salt.

You know the fascinating thing?  I honestly believe that if this hadn’t been written by Andrew Sullivan you would have agreed with more of it.

Posted by LandoGriffin on 08/13/07 at 09:57 PM from

Good to see your emergency was resolved harley, with that said

*Headline intentionally written so that the content of the post could be dismissed with a smarmy butt fuck joke.

I hate to disappoint so - I always assumed ol’ Sully was the catcher.

Posted by Para on 08/13/07 at 10:01 PM from

2) The generational shift in the political landscape is in the attitudes of voters in their late teens 20s.  They oppose the GOP even on issues where the GOP is supposed to be paramount—economy, defense, etc.  There’s higher support for the war among young people than there is for the GOP fighting it.

I really can’t remember a time when the GOP had the votes of the young. I’m not even trying to be snarky. Really, in my lifetime ( born during Viet Nam)the GOP has been for old folks and the Dems have been for young and minorities.

You know the fascinating thing?  I honestly believe that if this hadn’t been written by Andrew Sullivan you would have agreed with more of it.

I doubt it, I think what I think.

3) A realignment was absolutely possible.  I realize it’s become passe to point out that the country was united after 9/11, but let us not forget that Bush still holds the record for the highest sustained approval ratings of any president in history.  With a little modesty and humility he could have played this like a master statesman.  Rove and the gang viewed this as carte blanche to steamroll their agenda.  That’s the distinction.  When it was time for finesse the administration chose brute force.

You’re right and wrong here. Sure, in 2001 and early 2002, Bush was loved, by 2004, well, he was hated. The anti-war ( Sheehan) folks were already out there, the divide was permanent, and the die was casts. We ( by that point) could never get together. (I have thoeries about this, but perhaps another day)
You are right that the Administration is about as ham fisted as any in History. As for thier “agenda” well, except for war related things, pretty much nothing else happened on the agenda front. Schaivo, um........did I mention Schaivo?

I think some people ( not you , Lee) equate dedication to this war as part of an ideology, like Pro-war= Pro-Life, or some thing like that.

I think the war is a seperate issue, and basically it’s the only thing Bush has focused on for 4 years. In his defense ( and I know you LOOOOOVE it when I defend Chimpy), I think he goes to bed each night hoping that he has done every single thing possible to try to win this war as best we can. Warrantless searches, rough interrogation, stuff like that. I think he’s trying to win at all costs. It’s funny, it’s almost as some group is trying to hold him back.

Posted by Para on 08/13/07 at 10:04 PM from

1) The only reason Bush won in 2004 was because Kerry was such a shitbag of a candidate.  The fact is that Kerry lost, Bush didn’t win.

Kerry got the second most votes ever in history. Even more that Reagan’s landslide in 88.

Posted by Lee on 08/13/07 at 10:24 PM from

Kerry got the second most votes ever in history. Even more that Reagan’s landslide in 88.

And the most votes ever was for Bush.  So what?  Talk about a meaningless statistic.

In 84 (not 88) the population of the country was, what, 240 million or so?  It’s about 300 million now, so that’s 60 million new voters, give or take.  Then, 20 years later, there’s a contentious election and (gasp!) it had the two highest vote tallies for individual candidates.

What a shocker.

Posted by Lee on 08/13/07 at 10:25 PM from

If you look at voter turnout in terms of population you’ll see that it’s the standard deviation from the 50% mark that we see every election.

Posted by Lee on 08/13/07 at 10:28 PM from

I really can’t remember a time when the GOP had the votes of the young. I’m not even trying to be snarky. Really, in my lifetime ( born during Viet Nam)the GOP has been for old folks and the Dems have been for young and minorities.

As a group, the young do not vote.  However, this cuts across political lines.  As the groups get older they become more and more involved with the political process.  This is why it’s vitally important to know what the next generation is thinking. 

The GOP and its “Party of Jesus” thing ain’t lookin’ so hot.  Which I think is great.  As the party loses election after election they’ll re-tool their image, and it will be to try to woo the voters of tomorrow, the conservative members of whom share views far closer to mine.