Seven In One Blow
by Lee
Remember the hypr surrounding the Jose Padilla capture? It was proof that Bush was “keeping us safe” from “terrorists who want to kill us.” Well, here’s the reality of that situation.
Prosecutors on Monday began playing the wiretapped telephone conversations at the heart of the terrorism case against Jose Padilla, including several in which a co-defendant discussed sending satellite phones, military tents and other equipment to “brothers” in Chechnya in the mid-1990s.
Co-defendent. Not Padilla.
Mr. Padilla, an American convert to Islam who was named an enemy combatant after his arrest in 2002, has the highest profile of the three but has not figured prominently in arguments over the calls.
That is because his voice is heard on only seven of the 300,000 or so calls that the F.B.I. recorded from 1994 to 2001.
Seven. He participated in 7 out of 300,000 calls. A fraction of a percent.
The government added his case to those of Mr. Hassoun and Mr. Jayyousi only after transferring him to civilian custody last year, as the Supreme Court considered taking up the legality of his military detention.
Remember, folks. This is an American citizen, captured on American soil. If it happened to him, it can happen to any one of us.
Seven our of three hundred thousand phone calls.
Comments
I guess the actuall content of those 7 phone calls would be of even more importance.
Logic does not dictate that just because he was only recorded in 7 phone calls he was therefore not involved.
I agree with Outcast...who cares how many time he called, but more importantly, what was said.
I hate to sound like this, but how many non-Americans held tickets to fly on commercial airliners on September 11th, 2001?
Probably a fraction of a percent.
Oh, there are so many things wrong with this post that I hardly know where to begin…
The government added his case to those of Mr. Hassoun and Mr. Jayyousi only after transferring him to civilian custody last year, as the Supreme Court considered taking up the legality of his military detention
The government figured out that the military detention would not fly, so they are giving Padilla a civilian trial. Let’s emphasize: HE’S GETTING A TRIAL. The system works, just as I’ve been saying.
Seven. He participated in 7 out of 300,000 calls. A fraction of a percent
Yes, and if on those calls he stated something to the effect of: “Jose Padilla here! I’d like to join a conspiracy to kill lots of people”. Why would the number of calls be relevant? Hell, Lee, if you want to play with statistics, I got a good one for you. There are three hundred million or so Americans. One (1) guy got detained as an enemy combatant in 6 years. Meaning that the odds of anyone reading this blog and being detained as a terrorism suspect are about the same as one of them falling off Ted Kennedy’s yacht and getting a handjob from a mermaid that looks like Lindsay Lohan.
Also, don’t let it escape your attention that NOBODY else’s case has been mishandled like this since Padilla’s arrest. If we really are on this slippery slope, why does the Administration keep seeking federal court prosecutions against the JFK Airport plotters and the Ft Dix plotters instead of military detention? The answer is that they know that the detention would not be legal and there is already plenty of legal precedent for incarcerating terrorists.
Quit trying to drum up claims of George Bush and Stalinism. It’s not there. The criminal justice system will resolve the Padilla case.
the 300,000 or so calls that the F.B.I. recorded from 1994 to 2001.
Does 300,000 seem like a lot of phone calls to anyone else but me? Terrorists must be worse than teenage girls.
Mohamed: I so hope the 72 virgins will be cute.
Habib: Oh my God. I sooo totally know what you mean. It would totally suck to get to paradise and all the virgins have big jooo noses!
Mohamed: I’ve got a beep. It’s Abdul. I’ll put him on threeway.
Abdul: You guys are sooo not going to believe what Kashir said about Haji today at the training camp!!!!
Habib: Dish girlfriend…
Does 300,000 seem like a lot of phone calls to anyone else but me? Terrorists must be worse than teenage girls.
Mohamed: I so hope the 72 virgins will be cute.
Habib: Oh my God. I sooo totally know what you mean. It would totally suck to get to paradise and all the virgins have big jooo noses!
Mohamed: I’ve got a beep. It’s Abdul. I’ll put him on threeway.
Abdul: You guys are sooo not going to believe what Kashir said about Haji today at the training camp!!!!
Habib: Dish girlfriend…
Too funny, dak!
Meaning that the odds of anyone reading this blog and being detained as a terrorism suspect are about the same as one of them falling off Ted Kennedy’s yacht and getting a handjob from a mermaid that looks like Lindsay Lohan.
those are pretty good odds for Lee, actually. He lives in LA, Lindsay is out of rehab and high on coke, and so many people accuse Lee of being a stealth liberal he might as well part with Teddy Bear…
sorry, I just had a chuckle at that....
That is because his voice is heard on only seven of the 300,000 or so calls that the F.B.I. recorded from 1994 to 2001.
300,000 phone calls that the co-defendant made? That’s about 118 phone calls a day. Every day. For 7 years.
Is it 300,000 phone calls that are being presented as evidence in this case? That seems high. Was it 300,000 total recorded phone calls that the FBI saved in general? That seems low. Are they on any subject, or just on terrorism?
I don’t understand…
Let’s emphasize: HE’S GETTING A TRIAL.
According to Wikipedia, he’s batshit crazy and there is doubt that he is competent to stand trial.
there is doubt that he is competent to stand trial.
Instances of “not guilty by reason of insanity” pleas being successful actually incredibly rare. He would have have to clear far too many hurdles for that defense.
That wasn’t my point. If he did anything illegal, he was probably sane when he did it. He has been driven insane during his incarceration. He has been in isolation for the bulk of his 5 years in custody. I cut out the relevant part:
...he appears to have lost his mind. I don’t mean this metaphorically. I mean that his mind is no longer there.
The forensic psychiatrist who examined him says that he “does not appreciate the nature and consequences of the proceedings against him, is unable to render assistance to counsel, and has impairments in reasoning as the result of a mental illness, ie, post-traumatic stress disorder, complicated by the neuropsychiatric effects of prolonged isolation”.
There won’t even BE a trial if he can’t assist in his defense because he is batshit crazy and doesn’t understand the procedings. If they go ahead and try him anyway, it’s off to the appeals process and probably the Supreme Court.
I see what you’re saying.
My only point has been that he is getting a trial (and will get an appeal if need be) and that people aren’t being “disappeared” into Gulags the way Lee would have us believe.
Thrill, we are guaranteed a speedy trial in the Constitution. That is Lee’s point. You can’t hold someone indefinitely without bail while you figure out what you want to charge him with. You either have evidence to send the case to trial or you DON’T ARREST HIM.
That is what concerns me (and I assume, Lee). He should have had a trial 4 years ago or been let go with an “I’m sorry sir, our mistake”. These are guarantees in the US Contstitution, and very important to all Americans.
And I agree that the Padilla case was bungled. He should have been brought up on federal charges like McVeigh. However, the challenge was made in federal courts and the Administration backed down. Domestic terrorism suspects are being indicted and brought to trial. What happened with Padilla was a result of the post-9/11 hysteria and I would never want it to be regular procedure.
Instances of “not guilty by reason of insanity” pleas being successful actually incredibly rare. He would have have to clear far too many hurdles for that defense.
Other than the fact that the reason he’s batshit crazy to begin with is because of the way he was treated in custody. Since he had no Constitutional rights, he was subject to the same harmless fraternity hazing that our other terrorist masterminds have been subjected to, and it’s made him lose his mind.
Thrill, we are guaranteed a speedy trial in the Constitution. That is Lee’s point. You can’t hold someone indefinitely without bail while you figure out what you want to charge him with. You either have evidence to send the case to trial or you DON’T ARREST HIM.
That is what concerns me (and I assume, Lee). He should have had a trial 4 years ago or been let go with an “I’m sorry sir, our mistake”. These are guarantees in the US Contstitution, and very important to all Americans.
Not to Thrill. He doesn’t give a shit, because it hasn’t happened to him or anyone he cares about. Yet.
My only point has been that he is getting a trial (and will get an appeal if need be) and that people aren’t being “disappeared” into Gulags the way Lee would have us believe.
There have been two innocent people, a Canadian and German, both Muslim, who were “rendered” by the United States to be tortured by our close friend and ally Syria. Both of them were innocent.
Doesn’t bother you a fucking bit, does it, Thrill?
Since he had no Constitutional rights, he was subject to the same harmless fraternity hazing that our other terrorist masterminds have been subjected to, and it’s made him lose his mind.
And I hope he uses that in his defense. Let all of the facts stand on their own merits.
He doesn’t give a shit, because it hasn’t happened to him or anyone he cares about.
I don’t know how many times I have to tell you that I think that Padilla’s military detention was wrong but I’ll keep doing so anyway. It’s also pretty clear that the Administration is no longer pursuing military detention for terrorism suspects caught on American soil. Of course, I hate standing in the way of your dramatization.
Thrill:
It’s also pretty clear that the Administration is no longer pursuing military detention for terrorism suspects caught on American soil.
How can you be so sure?
Keeping in mind that any assurances you may think you have come from an Administration that has flat out lied in the past.
How can you be so sure?
Because that’s what they said. And if the Bush administration says it, by God it’s good enough for Thrill.
How can one doubt Dear Leader?
I trust him 150%.
I don’t know how many times I have to tell you that I think that Padilla’s military detention was wrong but I’ll keep doing so anyway.
Prior to the creation of the “enemy combatant” designation, Padilla would have been treated like McVeigh. Tried, and imprisoned or executed. Now, because of this new “enemy combatant” invetion on the part of the Bush administration, anyone can be locked up without Constitutional rights.
You, for some reason, have convinced yourself that granting the government this power is perfectly acceptable. Oddly, it is powers like this that our Founding Fathers fought a war against. But I’m sure you’ll have some way to rationalize that, too.
Sean Galbraith, in this signing statement, reserves to right to define “trust” as the opposite of its true meaning.
There have been two innocent people, a Canadian and German, both Muslim, who were “rendered” by the United States to be tortured by our close friend and ally Syria. Both of them were innocent.
Yes, it always comes back to torture when you can’t get any traction on the topic at hand.
Zammar, the German Muslim you mention was NOT seized in the US. It has nothing to do with Padilla. Take it up with the Germans if you don’t like it.
As for the Syrian-born Canadian, Arar, here’s some info from Privacy International:
the RCMP knew of the U.S. plans to deport Arar to Syria, but failed to notify others within the Canadian Government;
· the police did not obtain a search warrant when they seized documents relating to Arar’s real estate, that was later used by the U.S. authorities as justification of his links with Al-Qaeda since a suspected terrorist had acted as a witness to a 1997 lease;
· the Government knew that Arar was on the U.S. terrorist watchlist and was even informed by U.S. officials that Arar was on his way to New York;
· the Canadian authorities had previously arranged to interview Arar but decided against this when he insisted that a lawyer be present;
· the Canadian Government faxed to the Americans a list of questions to ask Arar;
· Canadian authorities assured U.S. Government that their intelligence was reliable, though the internal investigation found ‘the reliability assessment of that information was inaccurate.’[22]
The RCMP’s internal inquiry predicted that even more information could be discovered but RCMP officers decided against speaking to the internal investigation because they felt that they should only testify to the forthcoming inquiry.
Why don’t you put the blame on that steely-eyed terror warrior, Jean Chretien?
Then we are closer on this issue than it seems. The Padilla case is the poster child for why we need to sacrifice a little security to keep our nation free. The odds are still very low that anyone will be harmed in a terrorist attack. Suicide missions are self-limiting by their nature. They are easier to pull off because there is no escape plan, but the terrorist can’t do any more of them. A whole new cadre of terrorists has to be recruited and trained to pull anything like that off again. I suspect that most volunteers are not so bright.
The 9/11 project went through a number of personnel changes during the planning. Some of the candidates couldn’t get visas or speak english. They flew all over the place scoping routes and looking for flight schools. A few sensible procedural changes in airline travel and immigration is all that is needed to prevent that in the future.
Unfortunately, America thinks that it can remove “shit happens” from the lexicon. This just isn’t so. Every day you get out of bed there is a remote chance that you will not survive the day. Common sense measures like road signs, seat belts, traffic laws, firetrucks, etc. can mitigate that risk to a large extent. Much more than that, freedom has to be seriously restricted to prevent the odd random event or freak accident. The rarer the event, the less sense preventive measures make.
How can you be so sure?
Because the Ft Dix and JFK conspirators are not being held on “enemy combatant” grounds and a federal court already deemed Padilla’s detention as unconstitutional, thus the case is in federal civilian court. It’s not that hard.
Prior to the creation of the “enemy combatant” designation, Padilla would have been treated like McVeigh. Tried, and imprisoned or executed.
He IS being tried and if found guilty, will be imprisoned. Do you actually read any of the stuff you post or do you just skim for the words “Bush”, “sucks”, “Nazi”, and “fundamentalist” and make the same old comments over and over again?
Why don’t you put the blame on that steely-eyed terror warrior, Jean Chretien?
I hate to point out the obvious, but it is because Jean didn’t deport anyone to Syria to be tortured.
He IS being tried and if found guilty, will be imprisoned.
And how long did it take, and how many defense challenges did it take, to afford him this most basic right? The Bush Admin had to be arm twisted to the point of breaking and then beating with that broken arm to be forced into agreeing to abide by the Constitution.
Why don’t you put the blame on that steely-eyed terror warrior, Jean Chretien?
The Canadians put him on the no-fly list. It was AMERICA who sent him to Syria to be tortured for a year. Subsequently the poor bastard was issued an official apology by the Canadian PM, and awarded something like $10 million in compensation.
The US? We still consider him a dangerous terrorist, and he’s still on the no-fly list.
Doesn’t bother you a bit, does it Thrill?
We still consider him a dangerous terrorist, and he’s still on the no-fly list.
Who can’t even fly within Canada because certain routes pass over US airspace. Which, of course, makes perfect sense since if he were to hijack said airplane, it could never fly into US airspace otherwise.
He doesn’t give a shit, because it hasn’t happened to him or anyone he cares about.
I know people like this, personally.
We are fortunate that this policy never culminated in any widespread rounding up of citizens. The potential existed, of course. I always wondered - why did Lindh get a trial and sentence while Padilla languished in isolation until crazy. Lindh was pulled off the battlefield and sent home while his Taliban friends went to Gitmo.
The only conclusion I can come up with was that Padilla was a “testing of the waters” to see just what we would actually put up with from the gummint.
Other than the fact that the reason he’s batshit crazy to begin with is because of the way he was treated in custody. Since he had no Constitutional rights, he was subject to the same harmless fraternity hazing that our other terrorist masterminds have been subjected to, and it’s made him lose his mind.
That’s what his defense team says. I don’t know if this indeed a defense tactic or not.
Now, I agree with you, Lee that this shouldn’t have happened in the first place. I would like however, to get your take on the following things Padilla says were done to him and define each as torture, or not torture.
(emphasis added)In an effort to gain Mr. Padilla’s “dependency and trust,” he was tortured for nearly the entire three years and eight months of his unlawful detention. The torture took myriad forms, each designed to cause pain, anguish, depression and, ultimately, the loss of will to live. The base ingredient in Mr. Padilla’s torture was stark isolation for a substantial portion of his captivity. For nearly two years – from June 9, 2002 until March 2, 2004, when the Department of Defense permitted Mr. Padilla to have contact with his lawyers – Mr. Padilla was in complete isolation. Even after he was permitted contact with counsel, his conditions of confinement remained essentially the same. He was kept in a unit comprising sixteen individual cells, eight on the upper level and eight on the lower level, where Mr. Padilla’s cell was located. No other cells in the unit were occupied. His cell was electronically monitored twenty-four hours a day, eliminating the need for a guard to patrol his unit. His only contact with another person was when a guard would deliver and retrieve trays of food and when the government desired to interrogate him.
His isolation, furthermore, was aggravated by the efforts of his captors to maintain complete sensory deprivation. His tiny cell – nine feet by seven feet – had no view to the outside world. The door to his cell had a window, however, it was covered by a magnetic sticker, depriving Mr. Padilla of even a view into the hallway and adjacent common areas of his unit. He was not given a clock or a watch and for most of the time of his captivity, he was unaware whether it was day or night, or what time of year or day it was.
In addition to his extreme isolation, Mr. Padilla was also viciously deprived of sleep. This sleep deprivation was achieved in a variety of ways. For a substantial period of his captivity, Mr. Padilla’s cell contained only a steel bunk with no mattress. The pain and discomfort of sleeping on a cold, steel bunk made it impossible for him to sleep. Mr. Padilla was not given a mattress until the tail end of his captivity. Mr. Padilla’s captors did not solely rely on the inhumane conditions of his living arrangements to deprive him of regular sleep. A number of ruses were employed to keep Mr. Padilla from getting necessary sleep and rest. One of the tactics his captors employed was the creation of loud noises near and around his cell to interrupt any rest Mr. Padilla could manage on his steel bunk.…
Mr. Padilla was often put in stress positions for hours at a time. He would be shackled and manacled, with a belly chain, for hours in his cell. Noxious fumes would be introduced to his room causing his eyes and nose to run. The temperature of his cell would be manipulated, making his cell extremely cold for long stretches of time.
Mr. Padilla was denied even the smallest, and most personal shreds of human dignity by being deprived of showering for weeks at a time, yet having to endure forced grooming at the whim of his captors.
A substantial quantum of torture endured by Mr. Padilla came at the hands of his interrogators. In an effort to disorient Mr. Padilla, his captors would deceive him about his location and who his interrogators actually were. Mr. Padilla was threatened with being forcibly removed from the United States to another country, including U.S. Naval Base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, where he was threatened his fate would be even worse than in the Naval Brig.
He was threatened with being cut with a knife and having alcohol poured on the wounds.
Of these things, which of them do you consider torture?
I’m voting for stress positions as the number one torture he endured. This was intentionally designed to directly inflict pain on the suspect, although the belly chain and manacles don’t exactly conjure up umages of being hung up by his thumbs.
I’m suprised by the lack of beatings or burnings, or things like that though.
Of these things, which of them do you consider torture?
Well, by virtue of the fact that the man is a US citizen captured on US soil, I’d consider them all torture. But, to answer your question: most of it.
Isolation: The guy didn’t see another living person for at least two years. Why? (For comparison, remember that movie Murder in the First, with Christian Slater and Kevin Bacon? Kevin Bacon’s character was in solitary for 22 months, and he went batshit.)
Surveillance: Circumstantial. Was he on suicide watch? There are probably legitimate needs to have constant surveillance on him, so this one can go either way. However, in Padilla’s case I think it was.
Tiny cell: Depends on the length of confinement and the degree of “tiny.”
No concept of time: Same as with isolation, this would be situational.
Sensory deprivation: You didn’t highlight this, but this is where the torture comes in. This was a systematic campaign of sensory and psychological torture, designed to inflict physical harm. Taken by itself, not all the components are torture, such as depriving him of a watch. But they didn’t just take away his watch, they denied him the ability to know any time change at all. They, literally, drove this man insane, intentionally. Any way you slice it, it’s torture.
Stress positions, noxious fumes, temperature chances: depends on the specifics. How severe were they, how long did they last, etc. When used as a part of an overall package of psychological torture, absolutely.
Forced grooming: Again, not in and of itself. But as part of a campaign to destroy this man’s sense of self, absolutely.
I’m suprised by the lack of beatings or burnings, or things like that though.
Why? Those leave scars and marks and evidence. Look how many if the items above I had to write “It depends.” If I slap you in the belly once is it torture? If I slap you on the belly 10 times a day is it torture?
If I deny you soap and water, is it torture? If I deny you soap and water for a week is it torture? If I deny you soap and water for two years, during which time I forcibly bathe and groom you, is it torture?
If I put your hands behind your back and shackle your hands and feet to each other, is that torture? If I put your hands behind your back and shackle your hands and feet to each other and leave you there for 2 hours, is that torture? If I put your hands behind your back and shackle your hands and feet to each other for 2 hours every day, is that torture?
If I keep you in solitary confinement, deny you soap and water except at those periods where I forcibly groom you, belly slap you 10 times a day, and shackle you in that position for two hours a day, and I do this for TWO FUCKING YEARS, is that torture?
You bet your ass it is.
They know better than to leave scars. This was a campaign to drive this man accomplished. A US citizen. Captured on US soil.
Emperor Bush can do this to anyone he likes. So can any future president. If this doesn’t terrify you, there’s something wrong with you.
Forcibly groomed? That’s a new one. Eeew. Did they pay “special” attention to his privates? When done to strip dignity, yes it’s torture.
Two years in isolation is torture in and of itself. There is a show on Alactraz for History Channel that has guys saying it was bad for ~25 days. Humans are pack animals and we have to have social interactions for sanity. I’m sure he was his own best friend after awhile yakking away in his cell, laughing at his own jokes. Hey, maybe it isn’t torture if he threw a party for himself? Kinda fun, if you think about it !!!
The key, of course is that he is a US Citizen and we did this to one of our own. We drove him crazy. Hell, we could let him out now. What the FUCK could he possibly do?
Keep in mind that these conditions are not used for people who have actually been CONVICTED of the worst crimes in the USA. Padilla was only accused of crimes (of questionable validity) and was subjected to this inhumane treatment.
Sean, what you have to realize is that for the proponents of torture, there is no such thing as guilt or innocence. If they are in our custody, then they are guilty. If we torture them and they maintain their innocence, they’re just a terrorist who is going to be extra tough to crack. Eventually, after enough mistreatment, the innocent prisoner admits to anything his captors ask him. By admitting that he is a terrorist he has then justified the use of the mistreatment, because “We only torture terrists to keep Amurka safe.”
Lee, what you fail to accept is that Amurka does not torture, all the evidence to the contrary. As Stephen Colbert said, “Facts have a liberal bias”. :-)
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