if these limits may, at any time, be passed by those intended to be restrained?"
-- Chief Justice John Marshall, Marbury v. Madison, 1803
Rolling Back Murder
by Lee
Score one more for the good guys with guns.
A fatal shooting at an Albuquerque Wal-Mart last week was the state’s first by someone with a concealed-carry gun permit, authorities said.
Police said Felix Vigil was attacking his ex-wife with a knife near the store’s deli counter where she worked when an armed customer intervened and shot him. The woman, Joyce Cordova, was treated for multiple stab wounds and later released from an Albuquerque hospital.
The armed customer, 72-year-old Due Moore, was interviewed after the shooting last Thursday and released.
Police spokeswoman Officer Trish Hoffman said it appeared the shooting was justified. However, it will be up to the district attorney to decide whether Moore, a volunteer with the police department’s cold case unit, will be prosecuted.
Moore could not be reached for comment.
New Mexico allows citizens age 21 and over to carry concealed weapons if they complete firearms training and pass national and local criminal background checks.
Moore’s fatal shot was the first fired by someone with a permit, according to state Department of Public Safety spokesman Peter Olson. The state has issued more than 3,100 permits since the gun law went into effect Jan. 1, 2004.
So, which is better from a societal standpoint? If this happened in the UK, for example, the woman would be dead, and her husband would have gone to jail for it, not much consolation for the family of the deceased. Here in gun-crazy America the woman is alive, the criminal is dead, and everyone goes on with their lives.
Our way is better.
Comments
Beautiful. Score one for justice.
Ted “I’ve NEVER met a gun control bill I didn’t like” Kennedy apparently prefers the “woman dead, husband gets probation” scenario.
Shocking.
Our way is better.
In this situation. There is a balance, I don’t think anyone has ever suggested that having armed citizens in some cases is good - which of course it is easy to show if thats your point of view.
Still, the more I have thought about (thanks to this site and MW) trying to impose UK/Australia or really just the rest of the Western World’s gun-grabbing policies on the US is doomed to failure. Saying that, I think having US gun laws in other countries would also be a disaster. Sometimes a law that makes sense in one place dosen’t in another.
Police spokeswoman Officer Trish Hoffman said it appeared the shooting was justified.
This is everything that is wrong with law enforcement. It “APPEARED” the shooting was justified, what the hell is that? Then it goes on to threaten the guy with possible criminal trial if the D.A. gets a wild hair.
How about saying, thank you, citizen, for giving back to the community, saving the life of a complete stranger and unknown others who would be in danger once this maniac killed his wife. Law enforcement and the community at large owes you a debt of gratitude.
I don’t think anyone has ever suggested that having armed citizens in some cases is good - which of course it is easy to show if thats your point of view.
I have zero problem with law-abiding citizens carrying a means of self-protection. Since I have no wish to harm them, I am in no danger from them, and vice versa.
But you are afraid of guns and the freedoms they represent, and so you don’t want anyone to have them, which means that only criminals and the police will be armed.
Into the hands of which of those two groups do you want to place your life? Why do you trust them so much?
Posted by padders on 08/30 at 01:12 PM
Our way is better.
In this situation. There is a balance, I don’t think anyone has ever suggested that having armed citizens in some cases is good - which of course it is easy to show if thats your point of view.
It would certainly be bad to have an armed and trigger happy populace shootin up the innocent at the slightest hint of a provocation. That was the fear of the opponents of carry laws. The fact is, however, that in the 20 or so states that have them, no such thing has ever happened.
Still, the more I have thought about (thanks to this site and MW) trying to impose UK/Australia or really just the rest of the Western World’s gun-grabbing policies on the US is doomed to failure. Saying that, I think having US gun laws in other countries would also be a disaster. Sometimes a law that makes sense in one place dosen’t in another.
We don’t have (or haven’t had) the same kind of ancient ethnic rivalries that the rest of the world has. The groups that do are already the criminal element, and have guns anyway.
Funny that the gun carrying hero is named “Moore.” There must be something we can do with that.
“Due: the Moore of choice.”
heh.
This is everything that is wrong with law enforcement. It “APPEARED” the shooting was justified, what the hell is that? Then it goes on to threaten the guy with possible criminal trial if the D.A. gets a wild hair.
Probably has more to do with AZ law then anything else. Was Moore required to warn the victim before shooting him? If so, did he? I agree that any investigation will most likely show the shooting justified. But they at least have to investigate, a man is dead, after all.
Still, the more I have thought about (thanks to this site and MW) trying to impose UK/Australia or really just the rest of the Western World’s gun-grabbing policies on the US is doomed to failure.
I suppose that is me, but you couldn’t be more wrong. spend a little time here(either this site or the USA in general) and you will see we are not “gun toting retards.” i know your media portrays it this way, but your media spin is way off.
Padders, I was recently in London and saw a stage play entitled “Batboy.”
I am sure you know what I am talking about. I was shocked to see how your kind portrays the USA and its citizens. I actually slept through the first half and left at the intermediate break.
It is curious to me to see a people who think they know everything about everything, but fail to acknowledge simple facts.
We do it better than you..You wanna know why? you are not the world power anymore.
So take your English history book, shove it up your ass and rethink why you feel you have the moral authority to tell the USA how to keep shop (like your European fucktard freinds tell you to do).
BTW, don’t add Australia into the mix. It is the UK. After you absorb this we can talk about the Turkish and Pakistani gangs making clubs out of cricket bats and nails. We can also talk about when you get mugged in London you are treated like the criminal.
We are supposed to be allies in this fight. If you can’t do that, at least pretend.
Medal. We should give this guy a medal.
Lee,
Here in Albuquerque the sentiment is OVERWHELMINGLY in favor of the man who shot the scumbag who attacked his ex-wife. Even the anti-gun liberals at my law school have had nothing to say.
I think alot of the misconception of the right for an individual to own wepons comes from stuff like this
probably not safe for work
or from this which you know was shown worldwide
L.A. bank robbery
Personally I would never turn over my weapons even if they were outlawed.
The first clip though is hard to call justified but with no background on it who knows,but to stand over the guy and talk shit while he dies is a bit hardcore.
None of my guns are connected to me in any way in any databank. They are all legal purchases, but I have managed to not personally aquire them via retail outlets. I have a fairly large collection of rifles and pistols.
To me, stating that I can’t have a gun at a certain location is an indication that you most certainly should be armed while there.
I’d rather 70 year-olds carry handguns than drive cars.
No argument there.
Hey, hazey! You’re against the war, right?
I was shocked to see how your kind portrays the USA and its citizens. I actually slept through the first half and left at the intermediate break.
How is it possible that you were shocked? What did you actually see, other than the insides of your eyelids?
You apparently didn’t see any of it, yet you have very strong feelings about it’s “slant”. Sounds like you are talking about things you have absolutely no idea about. What? Did you read a review of the show after you slept through it, and then came up with a spoon-fed opinion? Or, are you simply exaggerating when you say you slept through it?
We are supposed to be allies in this fight.
That’s crap. If you and your kind was really interested in allies, you would try and come to some common understanding of the issues rather than simply say…
We do it better than you..You wanna know why? you are not the world power anymore.
You apparently didn’t see any of it, yet you have very strong feelings about it’s “slant”. Sounds like you are talking about things you have absolutely no idea about. What? Did you read a review of the show after you slept through it, and then came up with a spoon-fed opinion? Or, are you simply exaggerating when you say you slept through it?
I got about ten minutes through it and fazed in and out through the rest. It was a musical about an American family that adopted a “Batboy.” The slant broke the needle against the peg BTW.
That’s crap. If you and your kind was really interested in allies, you would try and come to some common understanding of the issues rather than simply say…
I would if it were somebody like Ring (pretty sure it is you) who is English and doesn’t come here flush our way of life down the toilet because it is different, like padders does. I am perfectly willing to come to an agreement, ut if you carefully read Padders post the only agreement (Read Minus, Read) is that it is hopeless and we can never do it as well (or as right) as the English/Aussies do it.
So Minus, in essence why don’t you take Padders’ English history book and shove it up your own ass.
So Minus, in essence why don’t you take Padders’ English history book and shove it up your own ass.
Man, I’ve been told to shove so much stuff up my arse, I don’t think there is any room left.
To me it looked like padders was admitting that in this case having a gun owner nearby was a good thing.
The person on the receiving end of a “legal” gun barrel is not ALWAYS a bad guy. Having said that… there is no substitute for a gun when you need it. It’s hard to fight off an aggressor with your “magical wand of love”.
My hat is off to Mr. Moore.
My hat is off to Mr. Moore.
I thought that was you in “Bowling for Columbine.” The extended version where you tongue kissed Mikey after he ate a can of anchovies.
I thought that was you in “Bowling for Columbine.” The extended version where you tongue kissed Mikey after he ate a can of anchovies.
You just blew your cover!
Only a libtard would watch the extended version. Gotcha!
I have zero problem with law-abiding citizens carrying a means of self-protection. Since I have no wish to harm them, I am in no danger from them, and vice versa.
But there is the problem, they are law abiding until they happen to shoot someone. Someone pisses them off (road rage), they have a couple of drinks, they make a mistake and think they are seeing an assault when they are not etc. My problem is I don’t trust the average person, even without a criminal record, to responsibly handle a gun. I have seen the way some “trained” people handle shot guns and that scares me enough, let alone some random carrying around a gun who is prepared to be a vigilante without proper training on when and how they should.
But you are afraid of guns and the freedoms they represent,
Oh come on, thats as pointless as me saying you just want a gun because it makes up for your tiny penis. I don’t dislike guns because they represent freedom, I dislike them because they scare me. Its really quite simple.
Into the hands of which of those two groups do you want to place your life? Why do you trust them so much?
Why do I trust the police? Because they are trained, shit even they make mistake as anyone who has seen any recent UK news will know. If extremely well trained police can get it wrong, I certainly know a civilian can.
That was the fear of the opponents of carry laws. The fact is, however, that in the 20 or so states that have them, no such thing has ever happened.
Huh? No one with a concealed carry permit shot someone and it was a “bad shoot”???
Padders, I was recently in London and saw a stage play entitled “Batboy.”
I am sure you know what I am talking about. I was shocked to see how your kind portrays the USA and its citizens. I actually slept through the first half and left at the intermediate break.
My type?! Not sure what to respond to that but anyway, afraid I havn’t seen the play you reference, there are like hundreds of them going on so picking a play and suggesting it represents the views of “our type” is a bit disingenious. Personally, I would be surprised if you have any country that supports the US much more than the UK; yes there are some silly sterotypes going around about you all being fat & stupid but then you have stupid steortypes of us as all having bad teeth and talking like Hugh Grant. Get over yourself.
So take your English history book, shove it up your ass and rethink why you feel you have the moral authority to tell the USA how to keep shop (like your European fucktard freinds tell you to do).
Thats the response I get when I say that I have been convinced by Lee and others that liberal gun policies in the US make sense. Can’t you accept that it might not be the best policy for other countries? Different countries have different cultures and values. In the UK there is not belief in a right to have a gun, its just not even on the radar. Even the police do not want guns. You really think in that environment/culture legalising guns would be a good idea?
BTW, don’t add Australia into the mix. It is the UK. After you absorb this we can talk about the Turkish and Pakistani gangs making clubs out of cricket bats and nails. We can also talk about when you get mugged in London you are treated like the criminal.
Huh and huh? What is your point, that criminals will use other weapons? I thought your guys arguments was the criminals all had the guns, but then you start talking about cricket bats - make up your minds! I have no idea what you are talking about re mugging.
To me, stating that I can’t have a gun at a certain location is an indication that you most certainly should be armed while there.
You think people should be allowed to take guns on planes yet? I have yet to hear a good reason from a gun rights supporter as for why people should not be allowed concealed guns on planes.
hats the response I get when I say that I have been convinced by Lee and others that liberal gun policies in the US make sense. Can’t you accept that it might not be the best policy for other countries? Different countries have different cultures and values. In the UK there is not belief in a right to have a gun, its just not even on the radar. Even the police do not want guns. You really think in that environment/culture legalising guns would be a good idea?
Well, I apologize if I have misinterpreted your statements. I was under the impression you were making some snarky refernce to being more evolved in the UK (and in many ways you are, in others we are). If this is the extent of your opinion than once again I not only agree I apologize.
I added the UK stuff for flavor.
Huh and huh? What is your point, that criminals will use other weapons? I thought your guys arguments was the criminals all had the guns, but then you start talking about cricket bats - make up your minds! I have no idea what you are talking about re mugging.
The point being is that it appears that if you are a law abiding citizen in England you are the immediate underdog. As part of the EU I noticed during some of my stays in England that many new EU immigrants and leftovers from the commonwealth enter England with the explicit desire to run rackets and commit crime.
I was speaking to the fact that you do have reason to protect yourself from these or any other people, and I believe the gun control laws throughout the EU have only punished the country’s citizens that wish to abide by the law.
It is true that I found England the closest in resembling our way of life (always a bit of the father in the son) but I acknowledge that crime is not a consistent as it is in the USA. It is very difficult to explain that to many Europeans if not impossible.
This is where I agree, we have laws to have firearms, because more often than not, we have better odds of being put in positions to use them.
Only a libtard would watch the extended version. Gotcha!
watch out Minus, the Storm Troopers are coming to your door as we speak. You know too much.
My problem is I don’t trust the average person, even without a criminal record, to responsibly handle a gun.
That is your problem, but “guilty until proven innocent” is not how humans work. Maybe over in EUROTard land, but we’re talking about reality.
You’re punishing people that haven’t done anything wrong because YOU are afraid. Sound fair?
but we’re talking about reality.
Wrong, you’re babbling on about YOUR reality, and effectively insulting people along the way. Bravo!
I completely understand padders. I don’t have a problem with gun ownership until I think about the idiots that may end up using them. I’ve had a fellow hunter across a field drop his rifle to check me out with his scope. Scared? Yes. I guess my red outfit wasn’t enough for him to know that I wasn’t a deer.
because YOU are afraid
There’s no shame in fear. It an instict based on self-preservation. Hell, we’re at war because we feared an attack from Hussein. Giving someone shit for being afraid is exactly what I’ve come to expect from the bullies on this board.
You’re punishing people that haven’t done anything wrong because YOU are afraid. Sound fair?
Should people be allowed to own rocket launchers?
Should people be able to take guns on planes?
Should any old scientist be able to experiment with biological weapons, just out of curosity?
If you say no to any of those, whats the difference? Its just a matter of degree, I (and most of the people in my country) think that guns fall on one side of the line, you think they fall on the other. Get the stick out of your arse that you think this is because we all hate freedom. Pathetic.
Well, I apologize if I have misinterpreted your statements. I was under the impression you were making some snarky refernce to being more evolved in the UK (and in many ways you are, in others we are). If this is the extent of your opinion than once again I not only agree I apologize.
Its hard to succintly put exactly how I feel. I think that trying to change the US now would do more harm than good, but I prefere how it is in the UK. Its not some snarky comment, but just like Drum likes being able to own guns, I like the fact that the chances of someone having a gun when walking down the high street is beyond infinitesimal.
There’s no shame in fear. It an instict based on self-preservation. Hell, we’re at war because we feared an attack from Hussein. Giving someone shit for being afraid is exactly what I’ve come to expect from the bullies on this board.
This goes to the heart of one of the complete illogicalities of how the right gets pissed at the left. They claim the left are all “scared” or whatever but then claim that the left don’t want to deal with threats like Iraq etc even though we know they are a threat. It makes no sense, either the left are all scardy cats so would be doing whatever they could to get any potential threat eliminated or they are either a) not scarred or b) don’t think war is always the best option.
I buck the trend on Iraq supporting it for humanitarian reasons (even if I am now looking potentialy wrong on that front) rather than any threat, but still I can see why some lefties must get pissed at this self-defeating logic the right uses against them.
Should people be allowed to own rocket launchers?
Should people be able to take guns on planes?
Yes. Imagine how 9/11 would have turned out if there were a few armed passengers on board…
Should any old scientist be able to experiment with biological weapons, just out of curosity?
You mean like they have at Biology Departments in colleges all over the world? Hell, if you have a degree in microbiology, the CDC will sell you reference strains of the common strains of things like ricin, anthrax, or botulinum toxins, too.
I like the fact that the chances of someone having a gun when walking down the high street is beyond infinitesimal.
Actually they are probably higher than you think, because the criminals are carrying. Just none of the honest citizens.
Get the stick out of your arse that you think this is because we all hate freedom.
It is hard to believe that you are in favor of those things when you will not allow people to defend them from thugs and hoodlums. If you want to cede yours to the whims of someone who is clearly not acting with society’s best interests in mind, that’s your concern. But don’t let your fears deprive everyone else.
Why aren’t you in favor of banning cars? More people die in car crashes than in shootings (almost five to one), and EVERY SINGLE CASE of road rage involved a car, but damned few involved a gun. Why aren’t you pushing to ban cars?
I’m still wondering why you trust the criminal and the police more than your honest neighbors…
Should people be allowed to own rocket launchers?
Should there be a law that they cannot? Should access to such weapons be only in the hands of crooks who wouldn’t abide by the law anyways?
Should people be able to take guns on planes?
No, and that is not a matter of degree. If someone were to try to smuggle a gun onto a lpane they would be sniffed out. Therefore ou don’t need to be armed either. Pilots should have bank vault doors and codes for them to get in and out of.
don’t throw shit in just because.
Should any old scientist be able to experiment with biological weapons, just out of curosity?
They don’t and any experimentation done with dangerous gases, etc. is well documented. this is also not a question of degree.
He was talking about personal self defense, not mass extermination. You are blowing this way out of proportion.
If you say no to any of those, whats the difference? Its just a matter of degree, I (and most of the people in my country) think that guns fall on one side of the line, you think they fall on the other. Get the stick out of your arse that you think this is because we all hate freedom. Pathetic
you might not hate freedom, but you certainly are frightened of having to much of it.
You fear what some people will do with firearms so nobody should be able to have them. that is limiting freedom. (It might be a cause but the point is the freedom to do so)
Its hard to succintly put exactly how I feel. I think that trying to change the US now would do more harm than good, but I prefere how it is in the UK.
I prefer England’s adult attitudes about sexuality, life, and culture. I admire the fact that many English are able to be critical of their own country at will.
I don’t like the impending EU laws if you stop dipping your toe in the water and dive into the EU. In Sweden I found their government system to be an obnoxious over complicated failure. I cannot imagine what will happen to the English if they let the Franco German system take over.
Sum it up?
either the left are all scardy cats so would be doing whatever they could to get any potential threat eliminated
No, they would be working to appease the threat. There’s a difference between eliminating and appeasing. (Appeasing only works for a short time. Eliminating works forever.)
This goes to the heart of one of the complete illogicalities of how the right gets pissed at the left. They claim the left are all “scared” or whatever but then claim that the left don’t want to deal with threats like Iraq etc even though we know they are a threat. It makes no sense, either the left are all scardy cats so would be doing whatever they could to get any potential threat eliminated or they are either a) not scarred or b) don’t think war is always the best option.
The question is not fear, the question is your reaction to it.
Since you seem like a true warm and fuzzy guy, Padders, I have a question for you along the extreme end of this self defense debate.
Should there be a law against martial arts as self defense? Certainly if a man were to train well enough, he could kill others with his abilities.
How many things that afford violence should be eliminated from society? Should England outlaw bats? What if an old lady got the shit beat out of her by a criminal, does that make the bat a bannable deadly weapon?
What is the extent that you are willing to legislate in the name of protection?
It would certainly be bad to have an armed and trigger happy populace shootin up the innocent at the slightest hint of a provocation..
Already have that, they are called criminals
That was the fear of the opponents of carry laws
They don’t obey the other laws anyway, the point if moot.
Although an example is not a demonstration, I globally agree with you. I only think important to emphasize the fact this person, although 72 years old, had had a training. Guns are dangerous, as ar cars for example. The right of the american people to bear arms, that I will not discuss, has a moral if not legal counterpart : learn how to use them accurately and safely for anyone that is not the mark. This man was, which makes this example a perfect one.
Although an example is not a demonstration, I globally agree with you. I only think important to emphasize the fact this person, although 72 years old, had had a training. Guns are dangerous, as ar cars for example. The right of the american people to bear arms, that I will not discuss, has a moral if not legal counterpart : learn how to use them accurately and safely for anyone that is not the mark. This man was, which makes this example a perfect one.
I am glad you identify with the abililty of a government to allow people to make their own decisions.
My grandfather is a renound gun hater. he went through Viet Nam, saw carnage, and now hates guns.
He doesn’t dispute the idea that people should be able to arm themselves in the name of self defense, he has made (listen closely Padders) the “personal” decision not to do so. According to him he justifies what he went through by saying “I went to war to defend my freedom to disagree and my way of life.”
I don’t even hate anti warmongers. It is a victory my grandfather spoke about. They don’t help, but they are certainly entitled to the opinion. If that kind of dissention is not tolerated then what would be the logical next step? Before you can say Bushitler, I will answer.
The defeat of everything my grandfather believed worthy to fight for. That is why I hold off on iraq and other lunacy the libtards spew. I keep his political views in mind everyday.
I have had my bouts, but those soldiers really are in their hearts defending a way of life.
To snatch the carpet out from under them, when all they ask for is faith, is as disguisting as cheering 911.(Michelle Moore I hope you browse)
the difference being, i can always rest at night knowing they would never turn a gun on me. See what kind of security I have?
Guns are dangerous
lets make this clear.
Guns cars bombs and the such are not dangerous.
People are dangerous. that equipment is just gonna sit there until some one does something with it.
Yes. Imagine how 9/11 would have turned out if there were a few armed passengers on board…
So you do want people to be able to take guns on board? At least you are consistant regarding this, you are also the first person I have seen support this. It would certainly save a lot of money in air port screening which would now only need to check for explosives instead of any metal.
You mean like they have at Biology Departments in colleges all over the world? Hell, if you have a degree in microbiology, the CDC will sell you reference strains of the common strains of things like ricin, anthrax, or botulinum toxins, too.
Why limited to people with degree in micobiology. Why are you restricting my freedom to play around with anthrax? I might want to use anthrax to protect my house from attack by having anthrax sprayers on all windows with a big warning sign saying people should not enter or they will get sprayed with anthrax. Why do you want to restrict my freedom to defend myself in the way that I choose to do it?
Actually they are probably higher than you think, because the criminals are carrying. Just none of the honest citizens.
It keeps on changing. One moment it is we have to ban cricket bats because that is what the criminals use, the next time it is we have to arm the citizens because the criminals all have guns. Make up your mind for crying out loud.
In the UK some people do have guns. The solution for me is mandatory prison sentances for carrying a gun. Elliminate most of the sentances for drugs possesion and target the real nightmare that drugs cause - people shooting each other. There have already been a couple of high profile cases of rappers being sent to jail for carrying a gun - long may it continue. (This is the UK I mean remember)
Why aren’t you in favor of banning cars? More people die in car crashes than in shootings (almost five to one), and EVERY SINGLE CASE of road rage involved a car, but damned few involved a gun. Why aren’t you pushing to ban cars?
Cars have other purposes despite killing someone. This is also why I have no problem with people owning shotguns that are properly licensed, locked in a gun cabinet when inside a house and use for recreation. I could also cope with the idea of handguns in shooting ranges if the guns had to be stored there.
Should there be a law that they cannot? Should access to such weapons be only in the hands of crooks who wouldn’t abide by the law anyways?
You honestly want to legalise the sale of rocket launchers? Would there be any criteria for a person buying one? You think the lack of avaliablity of rocket launchers might be something to do with why no planes have been shot down by one in the US?
No, and that is not a matter of degree. If someone were to try to smuggle a gun onto a lpane they would be sniffed out. Therefore ou don’t need to be armed either. Pilots should have bank vault doors and codes for them to get in and out of.
You want to allow guns everywhere apart from planes. I don’t get that logic. What about disney land - do you think Disney does the right think to ban guns there? What about banks? If you ran a bank might you try and detect for guns before people came inside? What about going to the beach - you like the idea of people taking their gun to the beach - out of interest what do they do if they go swimming?
They don’t and any experimentation done with dangerous gases, etc. is well documented. this is also not a question of degree.
Why not? You are happy to restrict these people’s freedom to do something because of public safety. Its no different to what I am doing.
He was talking about personal self defense, not mass extermination. You are blowing this way out of proportion.
YOu are not talking about self-defense you are talking about using guns for self-defense. Why is it that these pieces of metal are essential for self-defense whereas other things that other methods that you are happy to ban are not?
You fear what some people will do with firearms so nobody should be able to have them. that is limiting freedom. (It might be a cause but the point is the freedom to do so)
Fair enough. In my mind, I take the Mill version of freedom which is the harm principle. People should be free to do what they want so long they do not harm others. IMHO gun ownership harms others. Its a thin line, but it would be with anything because anything can have a use that is not negative, be it rocket launchers or biological weapons or explosives (c4 etc) etc.
I prefer England’s adult attitudes about sexuality, life, and culture. I admire the fact that many English are able to be critical of their own country at will.
The English can sometimes be pruding on sexuality (just look at the pornograph laws that have been nullified by the internet) but I definitely agree with you, especially with the latter. English people are just as patriotic as Americans, we just go about it a whole different way.
I don’t like the impending EU laws if you stop dipping your toe in the water and dive into the EU. In Sweden I found their government system to be an obnoxious over complicated failure. I cannot imagine what will happen to the English if they let the Franco German system take over.
In some ways I agree with you, there is certainly a lot of stupid stuff regarding the EU. The required curviture for banannas springs rapidly to mind. The EU does have huge positives though, both economic and politically. Why do you think two American states will never have a war together? That, to me, is the most important aim of the EU to prevent further wars via economic and political harminisation. There are certainly costs to doing that, including in autonomy but I think the benefits outweight the costs. That, and the EU is still working out exactly what it wants to be, instead of abandoing it - fixing it to make it better should be the order of the day.
No, they would be working to appease the threat. There’s a difference between eliminating and appeasing. (Appeasing only works for a short time. Eliminating works forever.)
Why would they appease the threat? Why not send lots of young republican men to go out there and do the fighting? What would the scardey cat liberals car about if a few right wingers die - you know how much they apparently support the miliary, so why would they care?
Should there be a law against martial arts as self defense? Certainly if a man were to train well enough, he could kill others with his abilities.
No there shouldn’t be. You can definitely kill someone in self-defense using martial arts although clearly it depends what you learnt. I personally did judo which is more self defense than attack although perhaps not as fun as some of the other options! Either way, killing someone through matrial arts is very different to standing 50 feet away and shooting them. Thats my problem with guns, any fight or disagreement can escalate into people dieing very rapidly. Without the presence of guns I think fights/arguments rarely become fatal.
How many things that afford violence should be eliminated from society? Should England outlaw bats? What if an old lady got the shit beat out of her by a criminal, does that make the bat a bannable deadly weapon?
Guns would be the main thnig. I am not sure there is much place for carrying 2 feet knives (or swords as they really are) in public although there are issues here regarding the Seek community and I certainly have no problems with people having them at home but really its gun. Everything else requires a whole different level of comittment to kill someone than does firing a gun at them.
lets make this clear.
Guns cars bombs and the such are not dangerous.
People are dangerous. that equipment is just gonna sit there until some one does something with it
the difference being our government is not promising you the idea that they will limit us from malicious intent by other citizens.
as a matter of fact they explicitly give us the right to defend ourselves from not only ourselves, but our government, should it be so.
How many “governments” in the world promise you this? How many would sign a document saying “should you ever need to, you have the right to stave us off.”
drawing a blank.
Why not? You are happy to restrict these people’s freedom to do something because of public safety. Its no different to what I am doing
I never said to restrict it, just hold others accountable for it. Get it? restriction bad. Personal accountability, really more better.
YOu are not talking about self-defense you are talking about using guns for self-defense. Why is it that these pieces of metal are essential for self-defense whereas other things that other methods that you are happy to ban are not?
No, Padders, you test the threshold of patience. I ask you to what limits self defense should be limited to. Unlike you and the nanny states you love, I am in no mood to tell you how to live. I also have no authority to preach how to run your business. I could pick on mother england all day, but as an American I respect differing views. Gett it?
No there shouldn’t be. You can definitely kill someone in self-defense using martial arts although clearly it depends what you learnt. I personally did judo which is more self defense than attack although perhaps not as fun as some of the other options! Either way, killing someone through matrial arts is very different to standing 50 feet away and shooting them. Thats my problem with guns, any fight or disagreement can escalate into people dieing very rapidly. Without the presence of guns I think fights/arguments rarely become fatal.
Then WTF is the difference, dude? A man has in his power to kill another with his hands, or with his piece of metal? they are all weapons and mankind has supported the use of violence throughout history. Do you have bounds?
Guns would be the main thnig. I am not sure there is much place for carrying 2 feet knives (or swords as they really are) in public although there are issues here regarding the Seek community and I certainly have no problems with people having them at home but really its gun. Everything else requires a whole different level of comittment to kill someone than does firing a gun at them.
using this train of thought, Padders why don’t we all live in padded white rooms. there is and never has been a way to limit the cruelty capable by mankind.
Here in Yankeeville we say “the best offense is a good defense.” Is that not worthy of introspection?
If you stick around I want to discuss these issues in depth. As a person who has lived in Europe and consistently bit my tongue, I want to make my voice heard over things i thought were troubling in EU society.
One last note, who ever said the benchmark for civility should come from mimicing “your” way of life? Kind of pompous, no?
No, Padders, you test the threshold of patience. I ask you to what limits self defense should be limited to. Unlike you and the nanny states you love, I am in no mood to tell you how to live. I also have no authority to preach how to run your business. I could pick on mother england all day, but as an American I respect differing views. Gett it?
Nor me, I am simply defending what I think is a good policy in the UK, something 99%+ agree with.
Then WTF is the difference, dude? A man has in his power to kill another with his hands, or with his piece of metal? they are all weapons and mankind has supported the use of violence throughout history. Do you have bounds?
Guns make it too easy. Its a matter of degree as I have explained. Its why not all guns are legal in the US, because some can kill lots and lots of people quicker. Its why a US citizen can not buy a tank even if they want to use it for self defense etc.
using this train of thought, Padders why don’t we all live in padded white rooms. there is and never has been a way to limit the cruelty capable by mankind.
Here in Yankeeville we say “the best offense is a good defense.” Is that not worthy of introspection?
I understand your sentiment, and I certainly understand why people want guns I just think on the sum of it the situation we live in in England is just better than how it works in the US (for us). You are welcome to run your socity how you want, and clearly you guys value more the protection guns provide and are prepared to accept any negatives their legality imposes. In the UK we are different, and thats fine. I just object to crap about being freedom haters or other such drumwaster style rubbish becuase we make a collective decision which is almost universally accepted to disarm ourselves.
One last note, who ever said the benchmark for civility should come from mimicing “your” way of life? Kind of pompous, no?
For fucks sake, how many times do I have to say this, its fine the US has guns and I tend to agree with it. I still think England is better “FOR US”. You think gun ownership is better, I think banning guns is better. Why is it I am the pompous one and you are not?
Guns make it too easy. Its a matter of degree as I have explained. Its why not all guns are legal in the US, because some can kill lots and lots of people quicker. Its why a US citizen can not buy a tank even if they want to use it for self defense etc.
So if someone overpowers a cripple you are all for it? survival of the fittest? Doesn’t that negate the design and creation of firearms in the first place?
I understand your sentiment, and I certainly understand why people want guns I just think on the sum of it the situation we live in in England is just better than how it works in the US (for us). You are welcome to run your socity how you want, and clearly you guys value more the protection guns provide and are prepared to accept any negatives their legality imposes. In the UK we are different, and thats fine. I just object to crap about being freedom haters or other such drumwaster style rubbish becuase we make a collective decision which is almost universally accepted to disarm ourselves.
If you look through the rhetoric he is only arguing that you limit the personal freedom to own a weapon based on the paranoic idea that it might be used. I hate to peck this in the keyboard, but I reluctantly agree with him. Why should I suffer for the stupid and insane? They are both stupid and insane which I am not. Kurt Cobain used his gun to off himself. Is that a reason to limit my freedom to own a gun? I think not.
you live under the illusion of security, Padders. The minute that is tested you will see the limits of humanity. At least come to the bargaining table with that in mind.
For fucks sake, how many times do I have to say this, its fine the US has guns and I tend to agree with it. I still think England is better “FOR US”. You think gun ownership is better, I think banning guns is better. Why is it I am the pompous one and you are not?
The pompous attitude derives from the idea that you have some idea of perspective without being here. Okay you concede things work for you as they do us. The difference?
american commenters don’t tell you how to keep shop. you seem to think you are entitled to tell us how to keep ours. I have had my differences both with Drum and others, but if you are not here you have no opinion on the matter.
Lee posts from experience. I comment from experience.
you can force feed yourself stacks of bullshit from the Beeb everyday from now to eternity, but that not only makes you smell like shit, it makes you full of shit.
Not to be rude, but given you are were I was, I think you can legitimize the bone I have to pick. basically “antisemitism” has been redefined in Europe in the 21st century to include all inhabitants of America. Wanna know why I think this way?
I was there.
OT - but couldn’t let this go:
Padders, I was recently in London and saw a stage play entitled “Batboy.”
I am sure you know what I am talking about. I was shocked to see how your kind portrays the USA and its citizens. I actually slept through the first half and left at the intermediate break.
Um.... it was a US transfer, written by Keythe Farley adn Brian Flemming - 2 LA scriptwriters, who have produced such masterpeices as Rugrats. The MD was Lawrence O’Keefe, who learned his trade at Harvard.
Plus, it was a musical. About a boy who is also a bat. Who likes to eat cows.
How realistic did you expect it to be?
Um.... it was a US transfer, written by Keythe Farley adn Brian Flemming - 2 LA scriptwriters, who have produced such masterpeices as Rugrats. The MD was Lawrence O’Keefe, who learned his trade at Harvard.
Plus, it was a musical. About a boy who is also a bat. Who likes to eat cows.
How realistic did you expect it to be?
I unrealistically expected it not to be a piece on how horribly religious and pathetic Americans are.
You can drum anti Americanism from the depths of America, at least keep it fair.
should I roast the English over “Braveheart?”
you would call me a demon, and I rightly ask you the same dignity.
One has to question how this would be so popular as to be the “Broadway” show of England?
Don’t hide. Just tell me why. we will tackle the stageplay of the jerry Springer show after this.
I know history sucks, but i write off mel Gibson, is it too much to ask you do something similiar? or should the world be subjected to how evil the English are according to him?
Padders,
Private ownersip of fully armed military tanks is legal here in the United States with the right permits. Usually a class three Federal Firearms permit for full automatic weapons is all that is needed. The only limit is that you cannot have armored vehicle armed with a active nuclear weapon.
Evan
The pompous attitude derives from the idea that you have some idea of perspective without being here. Okay you concede things work for you as they do us. The difference?
Of the last 3 years I have spent about 2 of them in the US. Its not like I don’t know the US somewhat.
american commenters don’t tell you how to keep shop. you seem to think you are entitled to tell us how to keep ours. I have had my differences both with Drum and others, but if you are not here you have no opinion on the matter.
But they do. That was my whole point of this discussion. Again, as this is clearly not getting through to you despite its simplicity. I would support gun ownership in the US. However I would not support it in the UK. We are different countries and things work differently. This is an example of one of those cases IMHO.
you can force feed yourself stacks of bullshit from the Beeb everyday from now to eternity, but that not only makes you smell like shit, it makes you full of shit.
Huh? When did I mention the BBC at all?
Not to be rude, but given you are were I was, I think you can legitimize the bone I have to pick. basically “antisemitism” has been redefined in Europe in the 21st century to include all inhabitants of America. Wanna know why I think this way?
I have absolutly no idea what you are talking about.
Evan, really thats true? Are you allowed to arm it with shells and things? Crikes.
One has to question how this would be so popular as to be the “Broadway” show of England?
Don’t hide. Just tell me why. we will tackle the stageplay of the jerry Springer show after this.
The “broadway show”? There are hundreds of shows going on in the West End every single day. I had never even heard of this and I go and see things quite regularly, actually off to see something tonight with Rob Lowe in.
Not having seen the American show currently playing in London I can’t really comment on it. But what is your point? That Americans are unpopular at the moment. Sure, I would say America as a country is about as unpopular in England right now as it ever has been in my lifetime, even our right party avoids any mention of it. However as far as I can tell, its not American people disliked at all, its the American government that is massivly unpopular in the UK for all sorts of reasons, some I think valid some I think rediculous - but thats another story.
We got this a lot when I travelled round Asia with my American girlfriend who would get the odd comment. Most of the time it would be along the lines of “So long you arn’t related to Bush you are fine with me”. A few jokes here and there, I have yet to meet someone who dosen’t like an American for being an American. Maybe you have.
I know history sucks, but i write off mel Gibson, is it too much to ask you do something similiar? or should the world be subjected to how evil the English are according to him?
What history are you talking about? If you are still going on about the play how can anyone comment you seem to be the only person that saw it.
Ahhh .. good old Braveheart. Great film once you remember its a movie. The Patriot is far worse IMHO but then us English are used to being either the villians or a Hugh Grant like character - Independance Day did that one particularly well :)
Padders,
you have the benifit of daylight, and i need to sleep. This has not only begun the war is far from over.
See you tommorow.
"Evan, really thats true? Are you allowed to arm it with shells and things? Crikes”
Yes it is true, padders.You can load it with munnitions and fire it, if you have the right Federal Firearms Permit.
Evan
The “broadway show”? There are hundreds of shows going on in the West End every single day. I had never even heard of this and I go and see things quite regularly, actually off to see something tonight with Rob Lowe in.
you are such an obvious “West End’ drama queen, how dare you pretend otherwise.
any “proof” of the mysterious minus is subjective too.
padders i have respect for the message from Europe, not necessarily the messenger.
Ahhh .. good old Braveheart. Great film once you remember its a movie. The Patriot is far worse IMHO but then us English are used to being either the villians or a Hugh Grant like character - Independance Day did that one particularly well :)
Maybe when you plant the seed of truth it blossoms.
The “broadway show”? There are hundreds of shows going on in the West End every single day. I had never even heard of this and I go and see things quite regularly, actually off to see something tonight with Rob Lowe in.
What a dishonest douchebag, it is you who is even pretending to taddle that you speak truth.
where do you live in London? what parts of the states does your [sic] spouse live? Where do you find home and at what point are you going to put a stake in the ground?
I am waiting.
Hey this is turning to be Brits vs Americans all over again.
Manwhore - my point was that people use sterotypes in entertainment all the time. Remember the Family Guy episode about the Brits taking over the pub? Brits in US shows are often sterotyped too..
You are more than welcome to watch Braveheart but roasting us over it.. cmon! No one here said that that was what Americans are like.
Jerry Springer was a parody of an American TV show. Spamalot is a parody of medieval England.
(And FYI Batboy bombed and got cancelled after a really short period...)
Hey this is turning to be Brits vs Americans all over again.
Manwhore - my point was that people use sterotypes in entertainment all the time. Remember the Family Guy episode about the Brits taking over the pub? Brits in US shows are often sterotyped too..
You are more than welcome to watch Braveheart but roasting us over it.. cmon! No one here said that that was what Americans are like.
Jerry Springer was a parody of an American TV show. Spamalot is a parody of medieval England.
(And FYI Batboy bombed and got cancelled after a really short period...)
Maybe life imitates art to a greater degree than we realise.
I love both countries, i just wish we weren’t at odds with each other to the extent we seem to be now.
Not having seen the American show currently playing in London I can’t really comment on it. But what is your point? That Americans are unpopular at the moment. Sure, I would say America as a country is about as unpopular in England right now as it ever has been in my lifetime, even our right party avoids any mention of it. However as far as I can tell, its not American people disliked at all, its the American government that is massivly unpopular in the UK for all sorts of reasons, some I think valid some I think rediculous - but thats another story.
We got this a lot when I travelled round Asia with my American girlfriend who would get the odd comment. Most of the time it would be along the lines of “So long you arn’t related to Bush you are fine with me”. A few jokes here and there, I have yet to meet someone who dosen’t like an American for being an American. Maybe you have
An oddly revealing time context, Padders.
Not to be rude, but given you are were I was, I think you can legitimize the bone I have to pick. basically “antisemitism” has been redefined in Europe in the 21st century to include all inhabitants of America. Wanna know why I think this way?
I have absolutly no idea what you are talking about.
the clueless victim routine? Padders i expected way more. i have a freind in East Camden RIGHT NOW that will dispute this bullshit. the minute we heal is the minute we stop playing charades.
I am at the table. I was there in London as of jan. 2005. We can cut the shit at anytime. i don’t ask for anything more. the reason why you respond is that I am not lying you know it. if I was lying you could dismiss it, but we are playing bullshit games to get to the truth.
cut the shit and lets talk about it.
Is it too late to defend Britain? I think I missed everything.
Is it too late to defend Britain? I think I missed everything.
It is a pick and choose battle Poosh. Are you defending Britian or Padders?
you decide…
Fuck Braveheart.
Fuck The Patriot.
And Fuck Mel Gibson (is those films!)
What Women Want is awesome on the other hand…
Fuck Braveheart.
Fuck The Patriot.
And Fuck Mel Gibson (is those films!)
What Women Want is awesome on the other hand…
Sanity=Kryptonite.
Manwhore. failing. Must . seek. shelter.
Curls. under. Poosh.
Dies…
Fuck Braveheart.
whatever, like no woman watched Braveheart and didn’t sympathise..
Puuuuuuhhhleeeeze.....
I liked Braveheart and The Patriot. I thought “What Women Want” was stupid. Helen Hunt, however, looked fantastic. I suspect that might be what Poosh enjoyed. No?
I think Poosh meant to say “fuck me. L Gibson.”
don’t lie Poosh.
Lee:
You forgot to add that the shooter would be facing more jail time than the criminal (if he lived), if this were Britian.