Life For Pizza
by Lee
If anything shows why the system of probation and parole we have in this country simply doesn’t work, it’s this story.
Pembroke Park · Lionel Tate, who at 12 faced life in prison for murdering a playmate, may have squandered his freedom for four 14-inch pizzas.
The bill for the pies—pepperoni and sausage, extra cheese, pineapple, and ham—came to $33.60, according to a Domino’s Pizza receipt.
Police say Tate placed the order from his 12-year-old friend’s apartment Monday afternoon and forced his way back inside just before the pizza arrived, roughing up the boy before robbing the deliveryman with a .38-caliber revolver. ...
e faces charges of armed robbery and armed burglary with battery. More significantly, he could return to prison for 20 to 30 years if he is found guilty of violating his probation, court officials say.
It’s another twist in the life of the youngest American ever sentenced to life in prison.
Tate made international headlines when he was convicted of the 1999 murder of his 6-year-old playmate, Tiffany Eunick. In 2001 he was sentenced to life in prison, but the conviction and sentence were overturned. He pleaded guilty to second-degree murder and in 2004 was released on one year’s house arrest and put on probation for 10 years.
Wasn’t he examined before he was released?
“If we’d got him the kind of help and attention he needed early on, maybe it would never have gotten to this point,” said Michael Brannon, a forensic psychologist who examined Tate over 2 1/2 days in 1999 and found that Tate had a “high potential for violence.”
Okay, let’s put this in perspective. I remember when this happened. This guy killed a little girl, then claimed he was doing a wrestling move on her, which was obviously bullshit put forth by his defense team. So, in 1999 he was examined by a forensic psychologist who determined that he had a “high potential for violence.” Three years later he was released from prison and put on probation, where he subsequently engaged in violent behavior again.
Am I missing something here? A little girl was killed, and this guy was let out of prison? Let’s hope the Florida legal system has enough brains to throw this piece of filth back into the system for the next three decades where he belongs.
Comments
Our justice system never ceases to amaze me. How many people do you have to kill or chase around with guns (or chainsaws) before we decide you just might be a threat to society?
The only reason why this continues is that no one is fed up enough to change anything.
Scratch that, maybe no one with enough authority will change it, probably out of fear of losing the “moderate” vote.
Hell, I was going to hang the fucker.
"By registering at this site you agree not to post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, or that violate any laws.”
Hell, I was going to hang the fucker.
*cough*
You’d hang an 11-year-old child for killing a playmate? You can question the defence all you want, but the fact is this is the life of a child. Putting him in jail or killing him, as you’ve hypocritically suggested, would solve nothing. Psychopathic or just the product of a poor environment, the kid needs help. Psychopaths treated at an early age can be cured. The longer we wait, the more likely it is they’ll have to depend on fistfuls of medications that they’ll probably stop taking when we stop monitoring them.
An 11-year-old piece of filth belongs behind bars for the rest of his life for a crime he may have committed by accident or as a result of a mental condition? That’s justice?
Mental condition? Where in that article was that mentioned? The kid is a menace. How would executing him for the killing of a 6 YEAR OLD CHILD be hypocrisy? He needs to be removed from society before another innocent is harmed by this creature.
An 11-year-old piece of filth belongs behind bars for the rest of his life for a crime he may have committed by accident or as a result of a mental condition?
He’s 12, and has already murdered 2 people in 2 seperate incidents, stolen innocent children from two families. You want to let him roam free as long as he’s properly medicated and getting therapy (something which does not prevent people who are fundamentally unstable from doing dangerous or violent things, just ask any of the mothers on antidepressants who whacked their entire family). *That’s* justice?
What’s this product of a poor environment idiocy? The kid’s 12, he’s sentient and if he’s old enough to kill someone for a pizza (something plenty of adults do, too), he’s old enough to go to prison for it. We’re all products of poor environments, or we’d never want to move out of our parents’ houses.
Offtone, would you let him babysit your kids? How about help out at your local school under close supervision?
...for that matter, which part of this was ‘accidental’?Mental condition? Where in that article was that mentioned? The kid is a menace. How would executing him for the killing of a 6 YEAR OLD CHILD be hypocrisy? He needs to be removed from society before another innocent is harmed by this creature.
Offtone said:
Putting him in jail or killing him, as you’ve hypocritically suggested, would solve nothing
Wrong. It would solve the problem of the little scumbag ever committing another MURDER
And please explain to me why in the hell this would be hypocritical?
When we can reverse death, then we can talk about chalking things up to accidents.
This kid shouldn’t have been out. Even if the 6 yr old girl was an accident, he should have been in a youth facility for a very very long time. The fact is that he wasn’t in jail for the first violent crime and then committed a second. There’s a good chance that the only reason the pizza guy is still alive is because he ran. He was able to take the best defensive position and run, unlike a 6 yr old girl.
Am I reading the article wrong? If he “at 12 faced life in prison for murdering a playmate” in 1999, wouldn’t that make him 18 now?
No Lee you aren’t missing anything. People like Offtone are all over in the Court systems and tend to obsess over the accused rather than the victims. So worried about the life of this little monster but doesn’t give a damn about the innocent, young life that was ended by this little creep!
And Offtone, it is not hypocritical at all! you better face up to the reality that your philosophy was proven wrong yet again! Sorry, we don’t need violent punks roaming free just because you think they can be “Cured” over time. Unless of course you want to take these little thugs in your house and accept full responsibility for them.
Sometimes the wiring is screwed up from the start. No amount of tinkering will fix it. Offtone, you take him in and see that he gets fixed and is able to eneter society. I don’t want that demon spawn within 500 miles of me. Got enough o em out here as it is.
Me: “Opponents say that the death penalty doesn’t act as a deterrent.”
Person I was talking to: “Well, it deters the murderer who gets it.”
And in cases like this, that’s more than good enough.
Yup. I defy anyone who says that the DP doesn’t deter to produce a single person who has been given that punishment and went on to commit other crimes.
Look at it this way: if a person murders another, he is either crazy (in which case society would be better off without him), or he isn’t (in which case, how could he live with himself afterwards?)
I’m not talking about self-defense or accident, I’m talking about an overly-large 12 year old (a bully by any standard but his mother’s) beating a 6yo girl to death, with at least 30 major wounds/broken bones. The State thinks that he can be “rehabilitated”, so they cut him loose on appeal.
Seventeen years old now, almost fully grown, beating up on a 12yo and committing armed robbery.
But by all means, let’s give him some more chances, right, Offline? After all, he hasn’t killed anybody else. Yet.
I say that we propose a constitutional amendment....for every leftist asshat that demands lienency for these little sh*ts be made to take them into their homes and assume total responsibility for their actions....if they commit another crime against society, then both the little sh*t and the leftist asshat get to serve the sentence.
We build ramps for people born without legs. We kill or lock-up people born with mental conditions that make them dangerous when sometimes medication can cure them.
I’m not saying he can be cured, but perhaps he could. An eye for an eye won’t do much good. Killing the killers isn’t solving the problem of crime. Unfit parents need to stop breeding. Children need not be given life sentences without first exploring more humane solutions to their problems. I don’t understand why you’d conclude that I have no remorse for the victim simply because I’m suggesting we don’t torture the criminal?
And yes, it is hypocritical to kill someone for killing someone. How was that not obvious?
Offtone,
You still haven’t answered the question I asked earlier:
Offtone, would you let him babysit your kids? How about help out at your local school under close supervision?
And yes, it is hypocritical to kill someone for killing someone. How was that not obvious?
Uh, no, they’re being killed for *murdering* someone. See the difference?
You’d hang an 11-year-old child for killing a playmate? You can question the defence all you want, but the fact is this is the life of a child. Putting him in jail or killing him, as you’ve hypocritically suggested, would solve nothing. Psychopathic or just the product of a poor environment, the kid needs help. Psychopaths treated at an early age can be cured. The longer we wait, the more likely it is they’ll have to depend on fistfuls of medications that they’ll probably stop taking when we stop monitoring them.
Good. Let him stay at your house then and then he can kill your kid, and not some poor sap who is unaware the criminal justice system is more concerned about being politically correct, than protecting the lives of people who don’t go out and murder due to their ‘poor environment’, or any other excuse some blowhard can come up with.
There’s a BIG difference between physical and mental disabilities. People are rarely killed by someone who has to be in a wheelchair.
But in this case had the little monster been locked up he wouldn’t have been able to act violently against yet another innocent person!
And why do I conclude that you have no remorse for the 6-yr. old victim? Because all you do is gush with compassion over someone that has proven he has none.
A few things that seem to have been overlooked.
a) the kid is seriously fucked in the head. The article says that he needs help and attention. I suspect that his problems go way beyond mere behavioural disorder. But all of you expert armchair pyschiatrists already knew that, didn’t you.
b) According to the story I read, he’s 18 now.
c) he hasn’t yet been found guilty of the crime of robbing the pizza delivery guy. Anything now is just conjecture. His lawyer (no surprise here) says that he is innocent.
d) If he is indeed guilty of the crime, then he needs to be put in a place where he can be treated and society can be protected from him.
e) Those advocating the death penalty for repeat murderers need to justify it by showing stats in recidivism for murderers. In most countries it’s so low as to be statistically insignificant.
I say that we propose a constitutional amendment....for every leftist asshat that demands lienency for these little sh*ts be made to take them into their homes and assume total responsibility for their actions....if they commit another crime against society, then both the little sh*t and the leftist asshat get to serve the sentence.
There are plenty of right-wing lawyers who support the rights of the child. Most of them would say that this was a dumb idea too.
So he’s 17 *now*, and playing with (and murdering) 12 year olds?
Paging Dr. Jackson, paging Dr. M. Jackson.
I remember when this happened. This guy killed a little girl, then claimed he was doing a wrestling move on her, which was obviously bullshit put forth by his defense team.
I remember that too. It sounded like it was some rough-housing that got out of control. 1 death later I guess we know the real deal.
We kill or lock-up people born with mental conditions that make them dangerous when sometimes medication can cure them.
First, ‘and sometimes medicine can’t cure them’. Does that make them any less dangerous to those innocents around them? If they don’t take their meds (and it is every person’s right to refuse medical treatment), does that make them less dangerous or more dangerous?
Second, what about the rights of those who are exposed to the violence brought about by those with “mental defects”. (I’d also like to see your reasoning for comparing someone in a wheelchair to a psychopathic monster who first kills, then rapes, little girls.)
An eye for an eye won’t do much good. Killing the killers isn’t solving the problem of crime.
It will guarantee that the killers get stopped at a single victim, rather than being let out seven years later to rape and plunder again (having had seven years to figure out why he got caught the last time, and think of ways to ensure that he won’t get caught the next time.
I don’t understand why you’d conclude that I have no remorse for the victim simply because I’m suggesting we don’t torture the criminal?
Because that statement shows that you perceive society’s actions - taken to prevent damage or death to yet more innocents - as “torture”, yet apparently don’t think that what the criminal did was similarly “torture”?
This kid had been examined by multiple mental health specialists and they all concluded that he had a “high potential for violence.” But they let hiom out, and now everyone is acting shocked because he committed another violent crime? Bullshit. This kid has forfeited any right he ever might have had to co-exist with a polite society, by killing one innocent and threatening to kill another. And he isn’t even out of his teens yet!! But you think he can be made “better”?
And yes, it is hypocritical to kill someone for killing someone. How was that not obvious?
Because there aren’t many who think like you do (assuming that’s what you are calling it). This kid KILLED a six-year-old girl by beating on her until she quit breathing. He had been a bully long before that (as reported by many teachers, the principal at his school, and multiple psychiatrists and psychologists. He beats up a twelve-year-old and sticks a gun into the face of the pizza guy.
A real model citizen, but only if you’re a Democrat.
If he had been left in jail, those crimes could have been prevented! How is THAT not obvious?
Those advocating the death penalty for repeat murderers need to justify it by showing stats in recidivism for murderers.
If a murderer is executed, what do you think are the chances that he’ll come back and murder someone again?
"We build ramps for people born without legs. We kill or lock-up people born with mental conditions that make them dangerous when sometimes medication can cure them.”
Yes, they are not harmful to society...see we believe that society needs to be protected from usless parasitic pieces of trash thugs like little Jr. here...I don’t see a problem with this idea at all.
“ I’m not saying he can be cured, but perhaps he could.”
How many more people should die before we find out? How many is enough before you think it is too many? How many more funerals before you say that he should be locked up forever? Just curious what the number would be…
“An eye for an eye won’t do much good. Killing the killers isn’t solving the problem of crime.”
It will guarantee that this piece of trash won’t kill anybody else..
“Unfit parents need to stop breeding.”
Great, lets get a legal discription of an unfit parent that we can all agree on. Would you then back legislation for forced sterilization of unfit parents?
“Children need not be given life sentences without first exploring more humane solutions to their problems.”
See above question… what number of funerals is enough for you to decide to lock this piece of trash up?
“I don’t understand why you’d conclude that I have no remorse for the victim simply because I’m suggesting we don’t torture the criminal?”
Because your only concern is for the criminal, it is not for the victim, the victim’s family or for the rest of society, you know...the potential victims.... Did you even notice where your concern lay? It is for this parasite on humanity, you don’t want him to face any ‘serious’ consequences for his ‘equally serious’ actions - and that doesn’t make sense to us. He has already proven himself to be a killer - we don’t need him in society. There is no torture here, nobody is advocating ripping out his fingernails with pliers here, just that he not be allowed back in society...how is that torture? Be specific, we are all dying to know?
“ And yes, it is hypocritical to kill someone for killing someone. How was that not obvious?”
And no it is not hypocritical to kill someone for killing someone. How is this not obvious? This clown killed an innocent 6 year old little girl, and you want to equate her death to the death sentence of this piece of trash? What crime did the little girl commit in your eyes? For what was she being punished? How is that not different???????????????
Like I said in an earlier post, if you liberals feel that you should be able to try your little social experiments, it is high time that you start paying the consequences of your idiocy.
There is no reason to justify the death penalty by citing recidivism rates. The death penalty is just simply because it applies an equal penalty for a crime. A person that murders “gives” up the right to continue living.
stogy,
“There are plenty of right-wing lawyers who support the rights of the child. Most of them would say that this was a dumb idea too.”
Yeah, we wouldn’t want you to answer for you idiocy! If there are any right-wing lawyers that want to take him home, have at it, they can pay the penalty for it too. See, I’m an equal opportunity responsibility person…
jk: I’m not suggesting you let him roam free. I’m saying don’t lock him in a steel cell for the rest of his life. There are institutions that hold these people while simultaneously attempting to treat them.
And killing someone for murdering someone is still wrong. Your motive for killing is simply---when you dust off all the political crap---revenge. If someone killed someone I knew, and I retaliated by killing that someone, I’d go to jail. The State does it routinely. Just because it’s done by people in suits doesn’t mean it’s not murder. The guy’s in chains, locked in a room, strapped to a table and injected with potent toxins. Who are we to take the lives of these people? They made that choice and are now being killed for it. The politicians make that choice and they get paid for it.
If a murderer is executed, what do you think are the chances that he’ll come back and murder someone again?
Recidivism is so low that there is pretty much no need to execute anyway. Invalid argument.
There is no reason to justify the death penalty by citing recidivism rates. The death penalty is just simply because it applies an equal penalty for a crime. A person that murders “gives” up the right to continue living.
Agreed. In my mind, any deterrence that results from putting somebody to death is gravy.
No pun intended.
Just because it’s done by people in suits doesn’t mean it’s not murder.
So there is no moral difference between beating a little girl to death, and being sentenced to death for that crime?
Tell us, is there ANY crime where you would agree that the death penalty is not only proper but downright required? How about that little girl who was kidnapped from her bedroom, raped, and buried alive? Does that recidivist pedophile deserve to be “locked in a steel cage”? Executed?
Or would you prefer that he be pampered and coddled and set free with a bottle of pills a few months later?
e) Those advocating the death penalty for repeat murderers need to justify it by showing stats in recidivism for murderers. In most countries it’s so low as to be statistically insignificant.
Oh I see - yes, you be the one to tell the family members of subsequent victims that their loved ones’ deaths aren’t “statistically significant.”
F*ck statistics. One preventable death is one too many.
And don’t think life in jail is any kind of panacea - they can still kill guards, and they can still escape. There was a real-life case in Canada just like this, where someone convicted of first-degree murder escaped from jail and went on to murder several others. Had he been executed for the first murder, those victimes would still be alive today.
The only valid argument DP opponents have (and the only one that gives me any qualms personally) is the risk of an innocent person being executed. So, if I were personally in charge of setting a policy, I would make the DP available only in “special circumstances” (i.e. heaps of DNA evidence and especially violent and brutal crime).
As for the “hypocritical to kill” argument, that only holds water if you hold to the view that all life is equal no matter what. But in the real world, we assign different values to human life all the time. Therefore, I see no reason to avoid judging a killer’s life as less valuable than that of his past and future victims.
Recidivism is so low that there is pretty much no need to execute anyway. Invalid argument.
The recidivism rate for those executed is precisely ZERO. Anything higher than that means than “rehabilitation” failed, and another innocent life was destroyed.
A person that murders “gives” up the right to continue living.
I don’t consider myself a fit enough judge to decide whether someone should die for such a crime, do you?
If there are any right-wing lawyers that want to take him home,
Who said take him home? It certainly wasn’t me. I suggested that if the need to adequately protect society was met (i.e. institutionalizing him) then there is no need to either execute or take him home. Why are there only two possibilities?
And killing someone for murdering someone is still wrong. Your motive for killing is simply---when you dust off all the political crap---revenge. If someone killed someone I knew, and I retaliated by killing that someone, I’d go to jail. The State does it routinely. Just because it’s done by people in suits doesn’t mean it’s not murder. The guy’s in chains, locked in a room, strapped to a table and injected with potent toxins. Who are we to take the lives of these people? They made that choice and are now being killed for it. The politicians make that choice and they get paid for it.
Yes, if you did kill someone you would go to jail. That’s why we have the court system. Do you think that the government should not levy fines as well? If I chose to fine someone based on a crime they did by forcibly taking money from them, that would be robbery. Should we have no jail time too? If I were to hold someone locked in a room, because they committed a crime, that would be kidnapping and a host of other violations. There’s a difference between being punished after having your case heard in court, and taking actions on your own.
I’m not suggesting you let him roam free. I’m saying don’t lock him in a steel cell for the rest of his life. There are institutions that hold these people while simultaneously attempting to treat them.
That’s fine, and he can be treated, and live a wonderful, happy life in our cushy prison system where you can enjoy cable television, square meals, and all the gay sex you can eat. Whatever.
And killing someone for murdering someone is still wrong. Your motive for killing is simply---when you dust off all the political crap---revenge. If someone killed someone I knew, and I retaliated by killing that someone, I’d go to jail.
Actually, in many states, if you witnessed a murder and responded by killing the murderer, it’d be classified as a form of self-defense and you’d get a firm pat on the back from police. As a vehicle for justice, however, there is nothing more equitable than executing someone (quite humanely, for that matter) for a heinous (often multiple) murder.
Considering the volume of swear words used at this site, my use of the “f-word” once in a while hardly measures up.
You can find a great deal of opinion that indicates that it doesn’t even qualify as a vulgar or obscene word any more due to its universal use and acceptance.
As for expressing a desire to hang a sociopathic murderer, that is neither “slanderous, hateful, threatening, or that violate any laws” - it is acceptable justice with a long history of common acceptance worldwide. Support of the death penalty is common.
Maybe the kid show go to the church featured a couple of posts earlier. He can get the violence out of his system by flushing Quarans down the toilet. Then he’ll find Jesus and turn his life around and be the much anticipated “next Billy Graham.”
I’m being silly, of course, but you might recal that the guy who wrote more of the New Testament than anyone else and went on three epic missionary journies (Paul) was also the same guy that killed many people for no other reason than being Christian (Saul).
My point? Let’s put him in an environment where he can’t do any more harm, and let’s try to help him. Or we can just sit him on a horse and send him down the road to Damascus and hope for the best. There’s hope for everyone, right?
The politicians make that choice and they get paid for it.
Actually, no, by the way, “the politicians” don’t make that choice. That’s what we have “trials” for.
The recidivism rate for those executed is precisely ZERO. Anything higher than that means than “rehabilitation” failed, and another innocent life was destroyed.
OK. So you execute an innocent person. Another innocent life destroyed. The DP has failed or nearly failed far more times than recidivist murderers have committed new murders.
I don’t consider myself a fit enough judge to decide whether someone should die for such a crime, do you?
No, I don’t consider you a fit enough judge, either. However, the current system we have, where the defendant’s rights are protected, and the facts are laid out before an impartial judge and jury, is probably one of the best in the world.
If, after everything the defense attorney has done to poke holes and provide alternate theories in the prosecution’s case, the twelve men and women of the jury come to a unanimous verdict that the person accused was guilty of committing the murder(s), AND went through a second deliberation, taking into account all of the aggravating and extenuating circumstances, deciding to vote (again, unanimously) to sentence said defendant to death, AND the defendant went through numerous levels of appeals, trying to come up with any kind of mistake in the system, AND if both the Governor of his State, and the President have both refused to commute the sentence, AND after all those legal hoops have been jumped through, many years down the road, I think that we have come to a proper decision.
And the claims that “innocents” are being executed - well, there are more people killed by murderers who are let out (or escape) only to kill again than there are “innocent” people executed by mistake. Let’s see which group is more “statistically significant”, shall we?
Invalid argument.
Couldn’t give a straight answer, huh?
OK. So you execute an innocent person. Another innocent life destroyed. The DP has failed or nearly failed far more times than recidivist murderers have committed new murders.
Could you post some links for this? I find that interesting.
I saw a TV special on this kid with some libby chick lawyer crying about how extreme his original sentence was and that it was terrible that we lock up poor little 12 years.
Screw that. This kid is a killer. Society has a right to protect itself against the threat he poses. Crazy or not, it doesn’t matter. Some people are just defective. When their actions prove that, we take action. Sorry, life is not fair. Tough shit.
Zzzzzzttt!
There’s hope for everyone, right?
No, no there isn’t.
The DP has failed or nearly failed far more times than recidivist murderers have committed new murders.
To use that metric, we’d also have to include times that recidivist murderers have “nearly” killed new victims. However, I’d argue that your statistical analysis there is full of crap, since only a tiny fraction of total murders actually lead to the death penalty.
There’s hope for everyone, right?
The burden falls directly on them to make that hope a reality.
The DP has failed or nearly failed far more times than recidivist murderers have committed new murders.
You’re full of shit. (Still.)
But I’ll give you one chance to prove that statement. Go ahead. I’ll wait.
From the web…
The 67.5% of releases rearrested within 3
years, or 183,675 persons, were charged
with 744,480 new crimes, or an average of
4 new crimes each. Over 100,000 were
new charges for a violent crime, including
2,900 new homicides, 2,400 new kidnapings,
2,400 rapes, 3,200 other sexual assaults,
21,200 robberies, 54,600 assaults, and nearly
13,900 other violent crimes.
Almost 3,000 deaths that could have been prevented, and you call it “insignificant”, huh?
Over 100,000 were new charges for a violent crime, including 2,900 new homicides
Actually, DW, charges laid do not equal convictions. I haven’t been able to find actual convictions for reoffenders. That’s what I was looking for.
In the US, I have to say I am surprised it’s so high. In Australia recidivism for murder is much lower, and there is no death penalty. In Japan, recidivism is also almost nothing. The death penalty is rarely used.
...
That’d you defend your comment as not being either of “obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, [or] threatening” is enough to convince me that your subsequent comments needn’t be acknowledged. You just can’t defend a comment like “Hell, I was going to hang the fucker” as civil, especially when it’s in regards to a child. I guess if your hateful remarks are accepted in other parts of this site that nothing will be done in this case either. But it’s a shame.
I believe that we should at least try to better the condition of these people. And no, I don’t believe any crime should be punished by death.
That said: I’m done here. My points have been made (though not received). There’s no swaying either side in this argument, and any attempts to help the other understand their opinions seem to be futile.
Actually, DW, charges laid do not equal convictions.
I’m sure the families of those 2,900 people will take great comfort in that fact.
In Australia recidivism for murder is much lower, and there is no death penalty. In Japan, recidivism is also almost nothing. The death penalty is rarely used.
Lots of assertions and allegations, yet you have failed to actually prove any of it.
Does providing evidence to back up your bullshit cause you to break out in an allergic reaction or something? Or are you just a liar, hoping not to get caught?
And no, I don’t believe any crime should be punished by death.
Which means that you are not here to discuss the merits of individual cases, but rather to push an agenda.
Let’s ask a different question.
Are there any crimes where ‘life in prison with no chance of parole’ is an appropriate sentence?
Here is something you might be interested in:
Nationally, during the 23-year study period, the overall rate of prejudicial error in the American capital punishment system was 68%. In other words, courts found serious, reversible error in nearly seven of every 10 of the thousands of capital sentences that were fully reviewed during the period.
Capital trials produce so many mistakes that it takes three judicial inspections to catch them--leaving grave doubt whether we do catch them all. After state courts threw out 47% of death sentences due to serious flaws, a later federal review found “serious error"--error undermining the reliability of the outcome--in 40% of the remaining sentences.
is it nature or nurture? Do you think he was born with the murdering instinct? Or do you think killing his first victim, and spending time in prison fucked him up?
Say the first one was an accident,by sending him to prison did we create a killer?
I’m just trying some philosophy here.
The justice system is a joke. But then, most of you know how I feel. Now what the hell is up with all this talk about getting the kid “help?” The kid deserves to have his ass beaten every day for a prolonged prison sentence.
The fucked up thing is that this is the judicial equivalent of parents giving their rotten kids time out.
I’m sure the families of those 2,900 people will take great comfort in that fact.
DW - it doesn’t say there were 2900 new homicides. It says 2900 charges were laid against people who had previously committed homicide. Many of those charges may have later been dropped. Some people may have been charged for the same crime. It doesn’t say how many people were killed. The only thing I know about that statistic is that it doesn’t actually say very much.
Let’s assume that he knew the basic tenants of human civilization, one being that “killing another human is bad”. And let’s also assume (far stretch here) that hew knew the consequences of murdering. If you know the penalty of the crime, why do it? Because you have a chemical imbalance in your brain? Because Satan told you so? But what if you know better? He essentially ignored what he knew, and took a risk. If you can’t do the time, don’t do the crime.
Although, there are some days I’d kill for a pizza.
There’s hope for everyone, right?
No, no there isn’t.
aw nuts.
Wait, can you prove this? I mean, it’s probably dumb of me to ask, really. We can find all sorts of cases where crazies have turned their lives around, but it’s simply not possible to ever prove that someone who has shown immoral behavior to be beyond hope. Just because someone dies without ever making anything good with their life doesn’t mean they didn’t have the ability to.
There’s hope for everyone, right?
The burden falls directly on them to make that hope a reality.
I completely agree. The haven’t the opportunity to carry that burden if they are put to death.
DW - it doesn’t say there were 2900 new homicides. It says 2900 charges were laid against people who had previously committed homicide.
Are you suggesting that they just charged homocide without someone actually being killed?
Many of those charges may have later been dropped. Some people may have been charged for the same crime.
I deny that possibility, unless and until you can provide a single instance of that happening in these 2900 new murders.
Start backing up your lies. Or quit wasting my time.
the basic tenants of human civilization,
Hate to point this out, but the word is tenets.
{/spelling Nazi}
Hate to point this out, but the word is tenets.
{/spelling Nazi}
Fair enough. We wouldn’t want those ten ants ruling us, now would we?
Actually, DW, charges laid do not equal convictions. I haven’t been able to find actual convictions for reoffenders. That’s what I was looking for.
Last time I checked, you needed to have a dead person in order for someone to be charged with homicide. So Drum’s point is still valid, 2900 people now dead.
Are you suggesting that they just charged homocide without someone actually being killed?
Oh, DW. You are a bit slow, aren’t you. I said that I thought the statistic of 2900 related to the number of charges laid, not the number of actual homicides. The way the sentence is written could actually be read both ways.
Fuck DW. Since when has any police force had a 100% clearance rate on crimes?? Your last statement is really one of the dumbest you have come up with. The average for the US is less than 70%. The link button doesn’t work on my browswer, but you can easily find that one for yourself. I can’t be bothered typing the code for myself.
I notice that you didn’t respond to my earlier post, about prejudicial errors in capital cases. I consider it to be evidence enough.
Start backing up your lies. Or quit wasting my time.
Outa here. Lee’s OK in my book, but you just a stupid troll, DW.
I, for one, welcome our new insect overlords…
I completely agree. The haven’t the opportunity to carry that burden if they are put to death.
Fascinating theory. Total crap, but fascinating. If you’ve gone and murdered an innocent person, you have lost your shot at hope. All you had to do was *not murder anybody*.
I notice that you didn’t respond to my earlier post, about prejudicial errors in capital cases. I consider it to be evidence enough.
Your unsupported statement is considered “evidence enough”? Bwahahahahahahaha!
Put up or shut up, you fucking idiot.
Evidence - it’s not just for breakfast anymore…
I just can’t help myself - I can’t believe you could be that thick:
Reasons for the number of homicides not matching the number of charges in recidivist homicide cases:
2 or more people are charged with the same crime.
1 or more people charged but not found guilty of committing the crime
1 person charged with a crime that was later found to have been committed by a person who was not a recidivist.
I am not denying that you could be correct, just that the statistic you quoted doesn’t say that you are correct. One more time, for the dummies - the statistic doesn’t say that 2900 recidivists committed 2900 murders. duh!
My unsupported statement was entitled
A Broken System: Error Rates in Capital Cases, 1973-1995A Broken System: Error Rates in Capital Cases, 1973-1995
and written by:
James S. Liebman, Simon H. Rifkind Professor of Law, Columbia University School of Law; Jeffrey Fagan, Joseph Mailman School of Public Health; and Valerie West, doctoral candidate, Department of Sociology, New York University are authors of this report which was released in the spring of 2000. In 1991 the Chair of the US Senate Committee on the Judiciary asked Professor Liebman to calculate the frequency of relief in habeas corpus cases.
Nighty night
Reasons for the number of homicides not matching the number of charges in recidivist homicide cases:
2 or more people are charged with the same crime.
1 or more people charged but not found guilty of committing the crime
1 person charged with a crime that was later found to have been committed by a person who was not a recidivist.
I can’t believe you would be so stupid, you fucking idiot.
Provide ANY evidence that ANY of these things happened. Not hypotheticals that COULD have been (because those 2900 people COULD have been killed by space aliens, just as the previously convicted violent felons were passing by minding their own business - maybe on their way to the Bible study you seem to think they were busy attending), but what ACTUALLY HAPPENED.
Those 2900 deaths DID happen. (And since we’re talking about more than a decade ago, I would imagine those results were known in advance when those sentences were written.
Once again: 2900 deaths from those who have been convicted of a serious crime, punished, then released, only to reoffend.
You have yet to actually provide any of those counter-examples that you keep pulling out of your ass. You know - evidence? (Maybe you don’t, given your allergic and knee-jerk reactions whenever anyone asks you for some.)
Let me be the first to say that this story didn’t happen in Arizona - it’s FLORIDA! My adopted state has enough problems, but we’re a long way from Florida…
I completely agree. The haven’t the opportunity to carry that burden if they are put to death.
Fascinating theory. Total crap, but fascinating. If you’ve gone and murdered an innocent person, you have lost your shot at hope. All you had to do was *not murder anybody*.
I see that. I haven’t murdered anyone, and I would be pretty darn mad at someone who murdered anyone that I’m close to. I would probably have a desire for vengence and justice and all of that.
What I would ask of you, Aaron, is what hope you’ve “lost your shot at.” Everything that anyone does wrong can be met with forgiveness or justice or vengence. Have you ever been forgiven instead of met with the justice you deserved? Just a question for the sake of argument.
Posted by sneaky_pete on 05/25 at 09:33 AM
There’s hope for everyone, right?
No, no there isn’t.
aw nuts.
Wait, can you prove this?
Ok, well if you hold out hope for someone like Charles Manson then maybe there is. But, you’d be a fool.
I will not be manipulated like that.
I’m content to lock them up and throw away the key. Death removes all possibility that some bleeding heart will transform hope into putting society at risk yet again. Are you willing to take that risk? Are you willing to take that responsibilty?
Wasn’t it Stalin who said, “No man, no problem.”?
People worse than Manson have contributed greatly to humanity.
Some people are too dangerous to be released back into society, sure. The problem comes with defining who we jail and who we rehabilitate.
Killers released who kill again… it’s a terrible thing. Reformed killers never allowed to repay their debt in a more meaningful way than rotting in jail, well, I would argue that that is a terrible thing as well.
Are you willing to take that risk? Are you willing to take that responsibilty?
But he’s just misunderstood! All he needs is a hug and a granola enema! Bush is Hitler!
This is just more evidence that all liberals are subhuman scum and should be exterminated like so many rats.
Killers released who kill again… it’s a terrible thing. Reformed killers never allowed to repay their debt in a more meaningful way than rotting in jail, well, I would argue that that is a terrible thing as well.
Prison ministries are a real need. What better place to help than in prison if you’re a reformed murderer? Once you kill someone, your rights change.
I’ve got a half day at work today, so I won’t be posting anything more today. I mention this so you will not think that I am a wimp. (At least, not any more than you already do.)
I will be happy to continue this conversation tomorrow.
Wimp! jk.. enjoy the rest of the day :)
Killers released who kill again… it’s a terrible thing. Reformed killers never allowed to repay their debt in a more meaningful way than rotting in jail, well, I would argue that that is a terrible thing as well.
Are you willing to take that risk? Are you willing to take that responsibilty?
Is that what the scales of justice represent?
Anyway, I don’t think you’re a wimp. It’s been stimulating. Have a good one!
Reformed killers never allowed to repay their debt in a more meaningful way than rotting in jail,
As opposed to...? Letting them get out? How are they going to repay the debt they incurred? If they were to steal and wreck a car, they can work to pay off the damages. How can they repay a rape or murder?
Killers released who kill again… it’s a terrible thing. Reformed killers never allowed to repay their debt in a more meaningful way than rotting in jail, well, I would argue that that is a terrible thing as well.
I wouldn’t. There are far more important things to worry about. I’m not wasting any tears on so-called “reformed killers” (and how can you ever know they truly *are* reformed, as opposed to just spouting the correct psychobabble of the day, or telling the parole board what they want to hear?)
Are you willing to take that risk? Are you willing to take that responsibilty?
Absolutely. I’d much rather risk the “reformed killer rotting” than the unreformed (or lying about *being* reformed) killer taking another life.
Yo my friend!!
Get it right. It’s Florida!! Doesn’t place that scum in my state. Besides, if he were here we’d have Sheriff Joe feeding him baloney sandwiches and wearing pink underwear while living in Tent City.
Get it right. It’s Florida!! Doesn’t place that scum in my state. Besides, if he were here we’d have Sheriff Joe feeding him baloney sandwiches and wearing pink underwear while living in Tent City.
You’re right. I don’t know why the hell I wrote Arizona. I’ll fix the post.
Lee: You were high, weren’t you??
Admit to nothing stronger than ‘extra oregano’…
” People worse than Manson have contributed greatly to humanity.
Some people are too dangerous to be released back into society, sure. The problem comes with defining who we jail and who we rehabilitate.
Killers released who kill again… it’s a terrible thing. Reformed killers never allowed to repay their debt in a more meaningful way than rotting in jail, well, I would argue that that is a terrible thing as well.
Are you willing to take that risk? Are you willing to take that responsibilty? “
Absolutely, they can join the prison ministries if they have truly reformed and repented.... maybe they can keep another less violent offender from becoming one down the road. He can be useful that way, but he shouldn’t be sent back into society.
“What I would ask of you, Aaron, is what hope you’ve “lost your shot at.” Everything that anyone does wrong can be met with forgiveness or justice or vengence. Have you ever been forgiven instead of met with the justice you deserved? Just a question for the sake of argument.”
Depends on what the crime is.... if it is a minor crime then I’m ok with forgiveness especially if there isn’t a victim or restitution has been made. Since you can’t make restitution on a murder, because you can’t bring them back to life, I don’t think that ‘forgivness’ from government is ok, maybe from ‘Jesus’ (and I’m all for that) but don’t turn him loose in society again.
This seems reason enough to me to not have the death penalty. As someone put it above, one dead child is one too many, one death penalty mistake is one too many. Its really that simple.
For those that go on and on about murderers re-offending, many death penalty opponents are quite happy with “REAL” life time sentances or for paedophiles, voluntary castrations. Sure, it is possible they can kill another prisoner but it would seem we could find it in ourselves to design prisons and policies so that is not possible. I somewhat doubt those who want to execute prisoners would argue against real life time sentances because they might kill another prisoner though.
For those that want to execute a 13 year old there is really no hope for you. Now that it has been banned in the US finally you have the wonderful choice of Iran, Pakistan, China and Saudi Arabia where you can move to.
As opposed to...? Letting them get out? How are they going to repay the debt they incurred? If they were to steal and wreck a car, they can work to pay off the damages. How can they repay a rape or murder?
They can’t. Neither can someone who breaks someone’s arm in a bar fight. We executing them as well? Neither can someone who steals some irreplacable artifact (like say a photo) - are we executing them?
I never realised execution/jail time was based on the ability to make victim restitution. Might lead to some rather strange sentancing.
That’s what appeals are all about, padders.
I’m of the mindset that we should just turn Manhattan into a Federal prison.
That’s what appeals are all about, padders.
Appeals arn’t much use when the prisoner is already dead because the DNA evidence is now found to be faulty, now are they.
I would like to see some statistics on the evidence used to convict people who have been executed, whether most of them are based on scientific evidence like DNA etc or based on eye witness accounts, confessions etc. Would be interesting.
Neither can someone who breaks someone’s arm in a bar fight.
A broken arm can heal. Let’s see you heal that little girl in Florida that was kidnapped by the pedophile, raped, and then buried alive.
Let’s see you heal her family. Either that, or let’s see you admit that this line of argument is false-to-fact.
Appeals arn’t much use when the prisoner is already dead because the DNA evidence is now found to be faulty, now are they.
If there was ANY doubt about the evidence in the mind of the jury or any judge to hear it later, the death sentence is automatically set aside (as it was in the page you provided - showing the system sorking exactly as it was designed). If there is any doubt of guilt, a new trial can be ordered. After 20 years of appeals, with even more accurate testing methods, the chances of someone being misidentified by DNA is growing many orders of magnitude SMALLER than the chance of a killer being set free and killing again.
Drum,
Are you saying there has been no death penalty mistake? Do you have a statistic on how many death penalty cases where mistakes (seem impossible to me) that you used to compare to reoffending (again, when I said real life time person sentances would be acceptable in some cases)? It seems to me you just pulled that comparison from somewhere, without any evidence. How can you possibly know how many people where wrongly executed, all we no now, is some where.
Lots of appeals don’t help when the case is based on DNA evidence and that is undisputed, until 20 years later we find the DNA evidence was tampered with, faked etc to secure a conviction. You could have appeals for 2,000 years but until you find out the evidence was purposly tampered with, you don’t get anywhere.
And that goes to the hart of a jury as well. If a jury is told that DNA evidence shows the person raped someone, and the guy happens to have no alibili, most people would probably not have any doubt - because they trust the DNA evidence.
The idea of “no doubt” makes little sense though really. How can you have no doubt in anything, even things you have seen yourself might have been your imagination. Its a level of doubt we are talking about, and DNA evidence is very reliable, unless like in the case above they look to have been purposly changed to secure convictions.
A broken arm can heal. Let’s see you heal that little girl in Florida that was kidnapped by the pedophile, raped, and then buried alive.
Let’s see you heal her family. Either that, or let’s see you admit that this line of argument is false-to-fact.
A broken arm can heal, but never be the same - a photo can’t be replaced. My point is that your reason for execution based on ability to make restitution makes no sense; punishment should be based on the crime - not if the criminal can “make it up” to the the victim.
For example, if the family hated their child and where happy she where dead, would that make any difference to the punishment that should be given? Of course not.
I’m going to add that finding religion in the can does not absolve one of anything and doesn’t make the criminal any less dangerous in my opinion.
I’m going to add that finding religion in the can does not absolve one of anything and doesn’t make the criminal any less dangerous in my opinion.
Atlanta courthouse shooting suspect Nichols converts to Islam
Drum,
Are you saying there has been no death penalty mistake? Do you have a statistic on how many death penalty cases where mistakes (seem impossible to me) that you used to compare to reoffending (again, when I said real life time person sentances would be acceptable in some cases)?
I’m not the one saying we should get rid of the death penalty because of the CHANCE of a mistake happening. I’m the one pointing out that there is a MUCH greater chance of a murderer killing another person after being released than there is of a State or Federal Death Penalty case being executed based on mistaken DNA evidence.
My point is that your reason for execution based on ability to make restitution makes no sense; punishment should be based on the crime - not if the criminal can “make it up” to the the victim.
Again, I’m not the one saying that we should set any punishments based on compensating the victim. I’m the one pointing out that there is no way to compensate a family for the crimes that have the DP as a punishment option (murder, mass murder, murder of a police officer, lying in wait, murder-for-hire, any other Class “A” felony where death results, etc.).
We’re not talking about someone who boosted a car, fercrissake - we’re talking about a kid who beat an even younger kid to death, only to be released and go right back to his violent crime ways.
You think he should have been let out? Is there any way for him to have compensated that little girl he beat to death?
punishment should be based on the crime - not if the criminal can “make it up” to the the victim.
Another thing. For most minor crimes, the punishment is designed to do two things: recompense the victim (replace/repair the car, fix the window, clean up the graffiti, whatever), and punish the miscreant (to show him that criminal behavior will bring punishment, above and beyond just buying his way out of a trial).
If there is no way to recompense the victim, then it is all about punishment.
How does a murderer “make restitution”?
Once you deprive a fellow human being of his/ her life, it’s a done deal.
You might pay back money you embezzled, return items you shoplifted or pay for repairs of property you damaged, or pay someones hospital bills if you put them there.
But you can’t undo a murder, there is no restitution you can offer the victim or his/ her family, and anyone who can be so cavalier about the murderer’s “rights” desperately needs to have a loved one murdered in order to adjust his/ her perspective a tad. See if they still feel the killer’s pain and sympathise with his “plight”.
Lots of appeals don’t help when the case is based on DNA evidence and that is undisputed, until 20 years later we find the DNA evidence was tampered with, faked etc to secure a conviction. You could have appeals for 2,000 years but until you find out the evidence was purposly tampered with, you don’t get anywhere.
Why would somebody tamper with evidence that is going to put a violent offender away? Nobody wants wants them walking around in society...that is one of the things I don’t understand...so many people believe that police officers would fake or tamper with evidence to lock up an ‘innocent’ person while allowing a ‘guilty’ person to roam the streets. I have a hard time believing this, if for no other reason than self preservation, the next victim could be someone they love. But they don’t want to believe that ‘Johnny’ raped her even though his DNA was found in the vaginal swab, he has claw marks on his face and they found his DNA and skin under her finger nails, she is beaten black and blue, etc....
Why would somebody tamper with evidence that is going to put a violent offender away? Nobody wants wants them walking around in society...that is one of the things I don’t understand...so many people believe that police officers would fake or tamper with evidence to lock up an ‘innocent’ person while allowing a ‘guilty’ person to roam the streets. I have a hard time believing this, if for no other reason than self preservation, the next victim could be someone they love. But they don’t want to believe that ‘Johnny’ raped her even though his DNA was found in the vaginal swab, he has claw marks on his face and they found his DNA and skin under her finger nails, she is beaten black and blue, etc....
There have been some case like this - maybe more than a few. Sometimes the police are under intense pressure to lock someone up for a crime. The public can be quickly quieted by just locking someone up. Most DAs are publicly elected and they’re also under pressure to get lots and lots of convictions.
I worked with a guy who’s son was in the wrong place at the wrong time and witnessed a very violent murder in Canton, Mississippi (the boy was about 14 at the time). I don’t remember who the actual murderer was, but he was the son of someone high up in the city government - either the Mayor’s son or the Police Chiefs boy. Apparently a lot of the good-ole-boys in control of the town were involved in drug manufacturing and/or smuggling.
Either way, my co-worker’s son was arrested and put in jail. Evidence began to mount immediately concerning the identity of the real murderer and the fact that the young boy couldn’t have committed the murder. All this evidence was supressed until finally some people from the NAACP (yeah, boo hiss) came to the rescue. They provided free legal support and private investigators. They made the whole thing very public and eventually the boy was released. I don’t know if the real murderer was ever prosecuted.
I guess my point is that there are times when the powers that be do knowingly let bad guys go free.
I’m not the one saying we should get rid of the death penalty because of the CHANCE of a mistake happening. I’m the one pointing out that there is a MUCH greater chance of a murderer killing another person after being released than there is of a State or Federal Death Penalty case being executed based on mistaken DNA evidence.
a) Evidence please.
b) I am open to the idea of locking some people away for life, meaning actual life. Thus, even if your statistic is true (I believe it could be, and probably is) it becomes redundant. Take the Peterson case for example. I don’t know all the fact, I have only heard titbits; but it seems from what I have read he was pretty likely to be guilty - but not 100% sure. It seems that is the perfect example of a case where the death penatly is not suitable - its possible if unlikely he was, say, framed. Now you can then either give him real life in prison, or say 30 years. I don’t know what the option should be here, I like to think that people can be reformed; that a lot of behavious is learnt. I also accept that most prisons are absolutly useless at doing any real reform.
You think he should have been let out? Is there any way for him to have compensated that little girl he beat to death?
Thats the key, I don’t know. It seems immaginable to find a 12 year old who killed someone, that by 18 they where ready to be let back into society, then again there would be clearly examples where that is not the case. We had a case like this in the UK called the Bolger case. Two young kids (10) I think, killed a small kid in a very deliberate way (planned). They where let out a couple of years ago to big protests. Will they do something again? I don’t know, but I think the actions of a child should not determine the next 30 years of their life, if it is believed they are not a threat. In the case you mention, it seems the mistake is determining if this person was a threat or not.
Another thing. For most minor crimes, the punishment is designed to do two things: recompense the victim (replace/repair the car, fix the window, clean up the graffiti, whatever), and punish the miscreant (to show him that criminal behavior will bring punishment, above and beyond just buying his way out of a trial).
If there is no way to recompense the victim, then it is all about punishment.
Most of your points about the death pentalty seem to be about prevention though, not punishment. I agree that there is no way to provide restitution to a family for killing someone, but I don’t think killing the perpertrator does either. Vengance maybe, restitution - clearly not.
Why would somebody tamper with evidence that is going to put a violent offender away?
Yeah, I don’t even know why we bother with trials. Why would the police/DA arrest someone who wastn’t guilty. Crazy this legal systems, should be innocent until the police think otherwise, police always getting it right and all. [ok, sarcasm system off now].
. I also accept that most prisons are absolutly useless at doing any real reform.
Prisons aren’t reform schools. That’s not their function.
I provided evidence showing the 2,900 murders because of felons who were released, only to recommit crimes.
I’m waiting to see something other than speculative evidence showing that mistakes are actually occurring, rather than the “chance” that they might.
However, it is an extraordinarily rare individual that can actually supply evidence to counter - just lots and lots of unsupported assertions.
By the way, have you got any?
I like to think that people can be reformed; that a lot of behavious is learnt.
So Scott Peterson learned how to strangle a pregnant wife? From whom, exactly? And do you really think that a person who is so heartless as to strangle his pregnant wife could EVER be reformed?
I don’t know all the fact, I have only heard titbits; but it seems from what I have read he was pretty likely to be guilty - but not 100% sure.
The jury - who DID see all the facts and DID hear all the arguments on both sides - IS 100% sure. Apparently your opinion should override their deliberate decision?
Most of your points about the death pentalty seem to be about prevention though, not punishment.
Not at all. This is about societal vengeance and punishment of the worst offenders among us, removing any chance that they could ever reoffend. My argument was that no executed criminal has EVER committed another crime (not so much as a speeding ticket), whereas paroled criminals reoffend on a depressingly regular basis. Just ask any cop who they look for first, the habitual criminal or the law-abiding citizens.
Evidence DW? I don’t need to provide evidence. I am questioning the validity of yours because I don’t think it supports your argument.
But I will anyway. The US bureau of stats says that the recidivism rate for murder is 1.2%. It would mean, if your 2900 statistic is true, that there were a total of some 250,000 murders in your period of study - 3 years after release. WOW!!! And you wonder why I question your data? It smells! If you can’t show that 2900 murders really happened (were actual homocides, resulting in convictions) then you can’t use the data. It’s as simple as that.
As far as providing evidence for my own argument, I posted a report pointing out that there were very serious flaws within the capitalist crime punishment system. It’s something you have completely failed to arue against. This is what I said at the beginning:
OK. So you execute an innocent person. Another innocent life destroyed. The DP has failed or nearly failed far more times than recidivist murderers have committed new murders.
My argument stands.
Well, I think Freud would go a little nuts with that one.the capitalist crime punishment system
Evidence DW? I don’t need to provide evidence.
Whatever, you fucking idiot.
My argument stands.
Not without evidence, but whatever, you fucking idiot.
So Scott Peterson learned how to strangle a pregnant wife? From whom, exactly? And do you really think that a person who is so heartless as to strangle his pregnant wife could EVER be reformed?
Drum, while I don’t share your faith in the infallibility of the criminal justice system, I think this is an excellent point, because it brings up the next logical step:
Scott Peterson strangled his pregnant wife. Very specific motivation in there. The odds of him committing another murder were roughly zip. Yet, by the logic some are using here, he should’ve been given leniency because of his low chance of recidivism.
In point of fact, he deserved to die. Not to protect society, but because it’s the just punishment for his crime. Criminal justice isn’t, nor should it be, about what *might* happen in the future. It’s about attaching consequences to what *did* happen.
I never thought that it is infallible, but I also don’t think that errors are as common as the libtards make it out to be. The system of appeals and our adversarial system is the best we can come up with, and all of their “improvements” are one of degree, not type.
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Mark_M: The average American is so fucking stupid I don’t give us much hope. I'll paraphrase a great line from Dennis Miller ..."The American people are so stupid...of course, I know better than them. But then again I DO have a bachelor's in communications from Tallahassee Junior College."
Tonight's speech by Obama on Iraq...
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Let’s hope the Arizona legal system has enough brains to throw this piece of filth back into the system for the next three decades where he belongs.
Only 3 decades?