Honest Injun
by Lee
It looks like the US is going to smokem peace pipe one more time.
U.S. senator on Wednesday urged a Senate committee to pass a resolution apologizing on behalf of the United States to American Indians for centuries of massacres, broken promises and other injustices.
Indian leaders at the hearing said they would need more than an apology to overcome the poverty, substance abuse and health care problems that many of their people face.
The United States has never formally apologized for its treatment of the indigenous people who were living here before European settlement began.
Sen. Sam Brownback, a Kansas Republican who is spearheading the apology resolution, told the Senate Committee on Indian Affairs it would be a first step toward healing deep wounds.
“Before reconciliation, there must be recognition and repentance,” he said. “It begins the effort of reconciliation by recognizing past wrongs and repenting for them.”
I’ve always wondered about these types of apologies. Are they really that important? I mean, don’t get me wrong, we have a lot to apologize for as far as the treatment of the Indians goes, but is the symbolism of an apology really that important?
Comments
I agree. What the hell good is it gonna do? I feel bad what happened to the Indians. I feel bad what happened to blacks. But I didn’t have a hand in any of it. Brownback is a dumbass.
I don’t believe in apologizing for something you didn’t do.
Absolutely. I think it’s a ridiculous idea. While there may be those who feel guilty about the past, if that portion of our history never happened, then what?
By apologizing, one portrays regret, I don’t regret America in the least.
By apologizing, one portrays regret, I don’t regret America in the least.
Also, it implies that you’re responsible and accountable for something over which you have no control - that’s what seriously bugs me about it. Can I go to jail for a crime my dad commits? No, nor should I. I’m responsible for my actions, and others are responsible for theirs. I guess that’s what that pesky little freedom thing is about.
When the hell are Britain and France going to apologize for what they did to my ancestors to make them come here to America in the first place? Oh, that’s right - never, it’s a one-way thing. But that’s OK. I don’t really hold Cromwell or the Bourbons against modern Britain and France, even if I suspect a family relationship between (say) the _hauteur_ of the 18th and 21st centuries.
I don’t want an apology. The people who did it are dead. And people who want an apology from me for something I didn’t do are counting on being able to manipulate us with guilt. And, of course, there’s a kind of Maoist self-criticism aspect to this - keep your subject/enemy on the moral defensive forever.
As to statements of disapproval, that’s a different matter. Any person of conscience is enabled and entitled to issue these, and it may be appropriate for deliberative bodies or diplomats to represent us in delivering these. I disapprove of American slavery and its legacy. But I will not apologize for it - I didn’t hold slaves, inasmuch as Emancipation came some 99 years before I was born - and will not turn myself in for prosecution.
Besides, there’s other bad stuff that comes from this therapy through vicarious apology. Folks who believe in the fraudulent concept of vicarious guilt may engage in frauds themselves to prevent paying the bill - hence, for example, the revisionism that certain of the runner-ups of World War II sometimes engage in. Apologize? It never happened!
Indians certainly got the shaft, sucks to be them. But I’ll apologise when I get my own autonomous property and my own casino where I can book has-beens and B-List acts.
This is as stupid as Illinois apologizing to the Mormons. (So we threw their prophet out of a second story window, beat him to death, and tried to cut off his head to make sure he was dead, like Dracula? It’s not like those Missourians, who basically had legalized Mormon-hunting til the 70’s.)
Seriously, though: Spain first. We played a very small part. I also demand reparations from the British government for the Highland Clearances. And a symbolic hug.
Indians certainly got the shaft, sucks to be them. But I’ll apologise when I get my own autonomous property and my own casino where I can book has-beens and B-List acts
Thats pretty shitty, spoony. Those casinos are taxed and regulated BTW.
I do agree on this level that what is in an apology these days?
How did Aussies handle the aboriginees?
AS long as the existing tribes are willing to enumerate and apologize to those tribes THEY oppressed and committed genocide against. Something current anthropology texts don’t seem to be willing to discuss. Or, for that matter, the current crop of tribal leaders.
I’ll apologize to Johnny Jones from next dooe for messing with hs bike in 3rd grade.The rest of those propsing this nonsense can kiss my white ass.
I grew up near a multitude of Indian reservations and can tell you what is needed for them to become productive people:
1) eliminate the reservations and monthly checks
2) pay to put them all into schools and enforce attendance
3) anabuse for all the boozers
4) make them get jobs just like everybody else
5) quit encouraging them to fall back onto their stone-age “mysticism” and inane platitudes of “we know what happened here 10,000 years ago” when so much of it has been so obviously either made up or BS.
Most of their social problems will end in a generation.
I grew up in oklahoma with many indian friends. Most of them got checks when they turned 18. I once asked what it was for. He screamed at me” because the white man stole my land”.
I would assume they were getting some kind of reparations.
We should ask Kevin Costner what he thinks, because he’s an expert on native americans. You can see him on 500 nations introducing a segment.
The US Government should not apologize for wrongs done to American Indians five or six generations ago. An official apology would be a legal admission of guilt that would set the stage for lawsuits amounting to billions and billions of dollars.
Here in Australia, there’s a similar campaign to get the government to apologize to the Aboriginals. John Howard has gone on record acknowledging the bad things done to the Aboriginals but refuses to say he’s sorry, simply to avoid all the lawsuits.
Sure bad things have happened in the past, but no one alive today had anything to do with it.
Indians are forever complaining about the miserable conditions in their communities. But they’ve had how long to pick themselves back up again? Part of the reason they’ve lagged so far behind other groups is because many of them insist on trying to revive an idealized way of life that hasn’t existed for more than a century. One of my own ancestors was Native American; her husband was a great-great-great grandfather of mine. I don’t anybody anything.
is the symbolism of an apology really that important?
Ask the black population how much healing was done right after Clinton apologized for slavery.
So much that Bush had to do it, too.
And has anything really changed?
I mean, don’t get me wrong, we have a lot to apologize for as far as the treatment of the Indians goes
How much of what we have heard in the last several decades is really true? Can we trust the source, knowing their agenda. Are the Indians yesterday’s Moslems?
I’m sure that there were regrettable acts on both sides, but the only thing we as a people are truly responsible for is irrevocably changing their world. We did do that. I’m personally thrilled not to live in the Stone Age.
As a Native American… Indian… Indigenous American… whatever the PC hit squads want to call us today, I have to say again… this… is… stupid. I don’t hold Bush responsible for anything that happened 150 years ago and to have him apologize is dumb and quite frankly… dangerous. (someone mentioned possible law suits)
As for the knocks against casinos, well everyone has an opinion, but on my reservation we are the one of the top ten largest employers in the city. Without the casino, there would be a lot of people out of work, Indians, Whites, Latinos… whatever. Besides, how else is the Governator gonna try to fix the state budget: by TAXING the hell out of the casinos in California.
I don’t know where these “monthly checks” some people are talking about (cutting welfare across the board wouldn’t hurt though) but my family and I sure as hell could have used them years ago.
Oh by the way, I help regulate a casino for a tribe other then my own in California. It’s not easy keeping organized crime and other scum away from the casino, but we do it.
- Aaron(So we threw their prophet out of a second story window, beat him to death, and tried to cut off his head to make sure he was dead, like Dracula? It’s not like those Missourians, who basically had legalized Mormon-hunting til the 70’s.)
Vampires… Mormons… Zombies… Who can tell the difference???
I don’t know where these “monthly checks” some people are talking about (cutting welfare across the board wouldn’t hurt though) but my family and I sure as hell could have used them years ago.
Some reservations in AZ send monthly checks to tribe members, and I’m sure other rezs do too.
As for the knocks against casinos, well everyone has an opinion, but on my reservation we are the one of the top ten largest employers in the city. Without the casino, there would be a lot of people out of work, Indians, Whites, Latinos… whatever. Besides, how else is the Governator gonna try to fix the state budget: by TAXING the hell out of the casinos in California.
I haven’t yet seen a blackjack dealer on the rez who wasn’t white.
- MemberVRWCWe should ask Kevin Costner what he thinks, because he’s an expert on native americans.
I AM AN EXPERT ON NATIVE AMERICANS... ‘cause I are one…
Born aboard NAS Memphis, Millington, TN.
Like Spoony said, when I can start my own multi-million dollar casino/tax-free this, that and the other business on land Uncle Sugar gives me, mebbe I’ll say sorry for giving ya’ll the pox and ...
Wait a friggin’ second… as a white male american, I won’t get a fucking thing from the government but a hard time,(so that’s why I go and get it for myself, and manage to have a few drinks along the way..) and I come from a family that probably worked along side slaves, instead of owning them, and if I have any Injun’ blood in me, it’s ‘cause of a drunken night of debauchery… so that would lead me to believe that my ancestors were too busy drunkly debauching with Injun women to be killing them and stealing their land… (though I wouldn’t rule out the possibility of one of my fore-fathers diving outta the back when Heap-Big-Brave or Mandingo came in the front...)
So, to the best of my knowledge, if you’re expecting “reparations” from me, I’m sure Uncle Sugar will be sure to raid my tax dollars for your “indignities"…
As for an apology from someone whose family or self had NOTHING to do with your plight…
fuck you
I don’t apologize for things that I had nothing to do with so fuck that.
I agree that native peoples around the world got a rough time, and apologies do seem to matter.
The point I dont get is that the apology should come from people who had nothing to do with the original crimes. How can anyone apologise for the actions of a government in power 100 years ago? Or even for the actions of your own ancestors?
And how does anyone know that the original perpetrators would be sorry for their actions?
The same thing happened here in Australia - the Howard govt. refused to issue an apology to aboriginals on the grounds that the present population of Australia is not responsible for events that happened 200 years ago.
Also, once you say ‘sorry’ you are acknowledging that you owe - Howard said that he was sorry certain things had happened to aboriginals, but it was not his responsiblity to apologise to them on behalf of all Australians. And ‘sorry’ always means money.
Canada apologised to the Canadian Indians and got hit with lawsuits totalling billions of dollars.
Fuck em...they werent fit enough.
My family has been in North America for several centuries now - do I qualify as a native?
Recognized tribes have the benefit of their members receiving a monthly check from the BIA. Based on my experiences living in Montana and Oregon, about 99% of that goes toward liquor. This isn’t really their fault in a lot of ways as Amerinds are, as a group, genetically predisposed to be alcoholics. Given a few thousand years that would be generally diluted out of the gene pool as it has been for other ethnic groups that have a longer association with liquor.
Seeing how it has been known since colonial times that Indians can’t handle liquor (and many places had laws banning it from being sold or given to the tribes), you would think that more of them would swear off the stuff. The ever present example of massive alcoholism that is common on many reservations should be enough of a warning for anybody.
The government has better things to apologize for that it’s doing right now to all Americans. Like brutally high taxes. Like increasingly intrusive criminal codes. Like an increasingly hostile business climate.
My problem with this kind of idea is that we could get hit with crazy reparations lawsuits. Such lawsuits would be funded by my tax dollars. Even if every American in America today was a descendant of the original settlers, there would be something wrong with that. My family came from Greece on the eve of the Nazi invasion of WWII. It’s even more absurd that I should be made to pay.
Finally, I have this to offer: the best thing we can do for these people is help them get away from the poverty of the reservations and integrate into American society. Direct reparations, and calling them reparations, is a huge mistake.
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Did Sam Brownback personally oppress native Americans / Indians / Whatever-you-want-to-call-them? I doubt it. So WTF is he apologizing for?
I don’t believe in apologizing for something you didn’t do.