if these limits may, at any time, be passed by those intended to be restrained?"
-- Chief Justice John Marshall, Marbury v. Madison, 1803
Flag Flap
by
Jim Broussard, a veteran, makes a statement of his own with a knife issued by the US Army:
Vet cuts down Mexican flag flying above U.S. banner
After hearing a Reno bar was flying a Mexican flag above a U.S. flag, an angered U.S. Army veteran took matters into his own hands, drove to the site and cut down the banners in front of a stunned group of Hispanic patrons.
Reno television station KRNV, which was there to document Jim Broussard’s act of defiance, noted the U.S. code prohibits raising the flag of any other nations above Old Glory.
Broussard pulled up in his truck to the Cantina El Jaripeo near downtown Reno yesterday, cut the rope that anchored the flags and pulled them down from a makeshift flagpole.
I say it’s a kick ass move. What the hell were these guys thinking? If it truly was an honest mistake, fine, lesson learned. However, with all the militancy of late surrounding the immigration issues with Mexico, I wouldn’t be surprised if this was a calculated statement.
Here’s a clip of the whole event.
Of course the ACLU is weighing in. It’s important to note that flying a flag over the US flag is against federal flag code and is not a criminal offense. It is a stupid move though. I wonder if the ACLU will defend Broussard from charges of vandalism or harassment should he face them. His action was a clear form of protest.
Comments
Howdy, I’m a libertarian that supports property rights unless it offends my moral sensibilities. Do the soldiers fight for our freedoms or just those they approve of?
For the record, I think it’s rude and in bad taste to disrespect the flag in such a manner. Just like I find protesters who burn the flag to be morally challenged. However, I’d never encourage someone to stop them as long as they were burning their own flags on their own property.
It’s the free speech we detest that is the most important to protect.
That’s a good point, jmh. I would never do anything myself. But, I’d would consider the value of the property in question with respect to the statement being made. It’s not like the guy burned down the bar. Technically, it was vandalism and theft but so was the Boston Tea Party.
It’s the free speech we detest that is the most important to protect.
You’re right. The correct thing for Broussard to have done would’ve been to burn a Mexican flag across the street. Kick a chihuaha, etc.
You’re right. The correct thing for Broussard to have done would’ve been to burn a Mexican flag across the street. Kick a chihuaha, etc.
I think it’s disrespectful for anyone to deface the flag of any country. When this happens the debate is shifted into a this region logic tends to get left behind and doesn’t produce a very fruitful outcome.
I think the right thing to do would be to meet with the bar owner and respectfully state your position. Explain how displaying the Mexican flag above that of the US inside the US is considered disrespectful. Explain how this could upset those who have fought and died for this country as well as those close to soldiers. Tell them that you respect their right to free speech, but that you would ask that they respect the sacrifices that others have made. Etc. The worst the guy could do is say: No go fuck yourself!
If the personal encounter fails, then I would try other means to draw attention to the problem. For example, I might start writing letters to the editor of local papers explaining my position in a way that would minimize snark and ridicule—for example I’d try to avoid comments about chihuahuas.
Lashing out against others and being motivated by emotion is not something that is going to get your opposition to listen to you. Do you take the left seriously when they deface a Starbucks? I sure as hell don’t. When I do something that only appeals to the folks that agree with me, then
I’m not changing anything. I’m simply wasting time and grand standing—It’s no longer about the issue, instead it’s about me. Though it may get me a few free beers at the bar that flys flags the way I approve.
I think the right thing to do would be to meet with the bar owner and respectfully state your position.
Perhaps. Yes, that could be considered the right thing to do. But, would we be talking about it if he did that? The spectacle created by his action is what he was after. That’s why I say this was a form of protest.
What about the disrespect shown by the bar owner? I find it hard to believe that, in light of recent protests where the Mexican flag was flown as some kind of statement regarding territory, this wasn’t a calculated statement on behalf of the bar owner. I can’t say for sure but I’m suspicious. Why not call that disrespect into question?
And while we’re talking about disrespect, how disrespectful is it to migrate to another country illegally, fly the flag of the country you emigrated from while protesting for your “rights” and proceed to gum up the works by using fake ids and sucking up social services?
It’s not that this bar owner did anything wrong other that violating the flag code. But, this has to be put in the context of the larger issue. We have a major problem with immigration in the US. This incident is symptomatic of the frustrations people have. It’s symptomatic of the failure of immigrants to reasonably assimilate and it’s evidence of the need to fix it.
Why not call that disrespect into question?
The question it seems to me is: Is a disrespectful response to disrespect the appropriate response? The answer to this question depends on your objectives. I mentioned this above, though not as explicitly as I do at the bottom.
And while we’re talking about disrespect, how disrespectful is it to migrate to another country illegally, fly the flag of the country you emigrated from while protesting for your “rights” and proceed to gum up the works by using fake ids and sucking up social services?
I’m pretty sure that if the bar owner was here illegally, it would have been pointed out in the WND article. I would go under the assumption that the bar owner is here legally and should be afforded the rights of those who are here legally until proven otherwise. However, if he is here illegally, then the appropriate response is not to take the law into your own hands but rather to report him to INS and have him deported.
This incident is symptomatic of the frustrations people have. It’s symptomatic of the failure of immigrants to reasonably assimilate and it’s evidence of the need to fix it.
So we want immigrants to assimilate into our culture. Do you think that violating their property rights and being disrespectful to them is going to encourage them to do this? We want them to respect our laws. Do you think that violating our own laws is going to convenience illegal immigrants to respect our laws? If disrespect is answered by disrespect, I don’t think we’re going to get closer to solving the issues you brought up.
By cutting down their flag, the veteran will get pats on the back from folks who agree with him, but he will accomplish nothing to further the objectives of cultural integration, reducing illegal immigration. Marginalizing these folks is only going to make the issue worse.
I also believe that the assumption that everyone of Mexican descent is in the US illegally doesn’t really do much to contribute to the cause.
I’m pretty sure that if the bar owner was here illegally, it would have been pointed out in the WND article.
I presume the owner is here legally. I’m not talking about him and clearly stated that he did nothing wrong outside of violating the flag code.
So we want immigrants to assimilate into our culture. Do you think that violating their property rights and being disrespectful to them is going to encourage them to do this?
No and wouldn’t encourage people to take actions similar to Jim Broussard. I wouldn’t do it myself but maybe that’s a “balls” issue. However, making this a property rights issue is a stretch IMO.
I also believe that the assumption that everyone of Mexican descent is in the US illegally doesn’t really do much to contribute to the cause.
Who is doing that here? I merely mentioned it because it’s part of the bigger picture.
No and wouldn’t encourage people to take actions similar to Jim Broussard. I wouldn’t do it myself but maybe that’s a “balls” issue.
I think speaking favorable about does encourage others though not explicitly. I don’t know if I’d say it was a “balls” issue. He had people there to film it. I think it would have taken more courage to walk into the bar, by himself, and try to have a conversation about it with what may be thought of as a hostile audience (at least hostile to his ideas).
Who is doing that here? I merely mentioned it because it’s part of the bigger picture
I thought that bar owner was the focus of disrespect you were writing about. I see I misread what you wrote, and apologize for misattributing that sentiment to you.
I still think that taking a situation that is tense and doing something to increase the tension is not likely to help the cause of increasing cultural integration and reducing illegal immigration.
I misread what you wrote, and apologize for misattributing that sentiment to you.
Don’t worry about it.
You know, the more I think about it, the perfect move might have been to simply walk up, take down the flags, change the order and raise them back up. No consulting the owner, no accusations of vandalism or property rights violations. Same point is made.
You know, the more I think about it, the perfect move might have been to simply walk up, take down the flags, change the order and raise them back up. No consulting the owner, no accusations of vandalism or property rights violations. Same point is made.
I think this would be a much better solution. It would have avoided a lot of the potential backlash that this could generate over an issue that is already very polarized.
You know, the more I think about it, the perfect move might have been to simply walk up, take down the flags, change the order and raise them back up. No consulting the owner, no accusations of vandalism or property rights violations. Same point is made.
Maybe, but even so, that would actually be in violation of the flag code, as it is against code to fly the flags of two or more nations from the same staff. While I agree with the sentiment as pertains to respect to the U.S. flag, I do feel it was disrespectful to leave the Mexican flag on the ground.
How the hell did that post get it’s formatting so pooched?
flying the standard of your nation over a dwelling/structure or any patch of land, use to be considered a act of claiming that land for said nation or declaring that the land or structure is a sovereign part of the standard/ flags nation.
IE the owner was claiming the Bar in question was a extension of MEXICO....
hmmmm
I know people that will fly any number of flags for various reasons. None of them, however, will fly one over the American flag.
I think they should give the guy a medal, and certainly should anyone sue him, I bet his legal bills will be paid in a heartbeat.
How the hell did that post get it’s formatting so pooched?
You clipped a tag. Slipped your comment into the closer. No biggie. I fixy.
If it truly was an honest mistake, fine, lesson learned
What happened to that part of Gripeboy’s post? Everyone here seems to be debating on the assumption that he knew any better. My mother flies 3 flags at her house: US, Michigan, and the University of Michigan. Truthfully, I’ve never paid attention as to whether they were in the “right” order, but I can assure you that if they are not, my mother would have meant nothing malicious by their misplacement. And if Jim Broussard came back and cut down the UofM flag cause it was above, let’s just say, the Michigan flag, he would have my pops to answer to.
I agree with the idea that switching them would have been the best solution, short of alerting the bar owner to change it himself. It allows Jim to prove his point, while not insulting or damaging property in the off-chance that it was a mistake.
Or, paraphrased:
“Welcome to America, where our Constitution provides that you are innocent until proven guilty. Unless you are Mexican.”
My mother flies 3 flags at her house: US, Michigan, and the University of Michigan
What, no Appalachian State Flag? :)
What, no Appalachian State Flag? :)
Bastard. ;)
“Welcome to America, where our Constitution provides that you are innocent until proven guilty. Unless you are Mexican.”
“Welcome to America, where our Constitution provides that you are innocent until proven guilty. Unless you do something totally stupid and blatantly fly the flag of another country, most likely from your actual country of citizenship, directly above the American flag in a total snub of laws, manners, and common sense.
Please be warned that many Americans will gladly beat the living hell out of you for being such a total ass.”
I’m no fan of illegal immigrants taking advantage of our hospitality, but the fact that they were even flying an American flag at all should be taken into consideration. If I start an Irish pub and put an Irish flag out front, above an American flag, would you respond the same way? Or is it just because we’re making a martyr out of one establishment founded by someone who, most likely, came to this country legally to begin with, if they even immigrated at all. Don’t confuse the clientele with the owners. I’m all for making protest gestures, but put credit where credit’s due. If some illegal immigrant comes over and does the same thing in his “home”, then by all means, but this guy is just grandstanding.
Bingo, Squirrels.
SO: Still wondering why we are assuming that it was an intentional “snub of laws, manners, and common sense”. I gave a great example involving my parents that nobody seemed to have a beef with, but the fact that the act was committed by a Mexican seems to be the sticking point for everyone. I guess you missed the point of the post that you quoted, and the irony of your own.
I guessed you missed my point entirely. I got your point, which I thought was asinine, and made a point about your point.
Personally, I find it extremely unlikely that your average Mexican wouldn’t know that flying another flag on top of the US flag in the US is, at the very least, extremely rude. They know, for example, what they would do if they were in Mexico and came across a business that flew an American flag on top of the Mexican one.
Claiming ignorance in this case is disingenuous at best.
I guessed you missed my point entirely.
No, I got your point, which was to completely dismiss mine without apparently giving it an ounce of rational thought. I can tell that this is an important matter to you. I think you’re letting that cloud your judgement.
You seem unwilling to believe (or rather, you “find it extremely unlikely") that this could have been a simple mistake, even though I’m not even sure that all AMERICANS know the “rule”, or commonly pay notice to it. That is your shortcoming, not mine. I’m fully prepared to accept that it *was* malicious, but am simply curious why nobody (GripeBoy excepted) is willing to accept with an equal probability that it was a simple mistake, or perhaps even a cultural mistake that the proprietor would have been embarrassed over and/or willing to make amends for on his own without such drastic measures. Perhaps in Mexico, they don’t have such guidelines for flagflying. I surely can’t say 100% without speculation (or without looking it up). Can you? I’m not arguing *for* these guys, by the way, rather I’m arguing against such closed-minded thought. If this thread, instead, was heavily favored towards the idea that this guy was a clueless schlub, I’d be asking where the cynicism was. See, that’s called addressing both sides of an issue. It’s what you do when you are lacking things like, oh, let’s just say, “FACTS”.
I suppose if you aren’t willing to accept that, then I guess that’s the end of this discussion, since your failure to acknowledge this possibility is, in your words, “assinine” and hopelessly “ignorant”. In any case, it leaves no room for debate.
I’ll make sure to call my parents and ensure that they have their flags set correctly before you and Jim roll into town.
given the fact that the flag positioning was reported in the media and this is how the man found out about the flags. It is highly unlikely that the bar owner did not know that this was improper.
Good point, Harley. I hadn’t considered that.
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