if these limits may, at any time, be passed by those intended to be restrained?"
-- Chief Justice John Marshall, Marbury v. Madison, 1803
Dead in the Jetway
by Lee
By now you’ve all heard this story.
Shortly after boarding an Orlando-bound plane, passengers say, they saw a man bolt from his seat and run down the aisle, with his screaming wife and man in a Hawaiian shirt behind. “My husband! My husband!” one passenger said she heard the wife cry.
The chase ended moments later Wednesday in a Miami International Airport jetway, when authorities say Rigoberto Alpizar appeared to reach for his bag. He was shot to death by the man in the Hawaiian shirt and a second pursuer, both undercover air marshals.
Before he ran off the plane he “uttered threatening words that included a sentence to the effect that he had a bomb,” said James E. Bauer, agent in charge of the Federal Air Marshal Service field office in Miami.
No bomb was found, and federal officials later concluded there was no link to terrorism. Witnesses said his wife, Anne, frantically tried to explain he was bipolar, a mental illness also known as manic-depression, and was off his medication.
“She said it was her fault that he was bipolar,” said Mike Deshears, a Flight 924 passenger who works for a vacation club in Orlando. “He was sick and she had convinced him to get on the plane.”
It was the first time since the Sept. 11 attacks that an air marshal discharged a firearm at a passenger or suspect, Homeland Security Department spokesman Brian Doyle said.
Dave Adams, a spokesman for the air marshals, confirmed Thursday there were two marshals on the flight and said both fired at Alpizar.
“They felt their life was threatened,” he told ABC’s “Good Morning America.” “This was a textbook scenario and they acted instinctively based on the training.”
One of the main reasons I supported and continue to support the Iraq War was that after 9/11 it was essential for the United States to have a credible threat of force, and the only real way to have a credible threat is to actually follow through with it occasionally. Thus now there is no doubt among any Arabic nation that, at least while a Republican is in power, the US will not hesitate to use military force against any country it deems a threat. This is a powerful motivator, as we have seen in cooperation from Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and other ostensibly hostile nations.
This incident will function in a similar manner. We now have a credible threat of force when it comes to airline safety. We have just demonstrated to every terrorist in the world who was considering another operation inside a passenger airliner that we do have marshals on board, and they can and will use deadly force if necessary. If you were planning a terrorist op, you would have just scratched “airliner” from the top of your list.
If this poor bastard was indeed bipolar and nuts then that’s a tragedy, but the officers did their job and did it superbly. If the man’s wife can take consolation from anything it’s that his death just made air travel in America a whole lot safer.
Comments
“She said it was her fault that he was bipolar,” said Mike Deshears, a Flight 924 passenger who works for a vacation club in Orlando.
I’m wondering if there should have been a common after “fault”. Her fault, [because] he was bipolar. And she talked him into flying, therefore blaming herself for the situation. ??
Sad, whatever. But, nice to see the plan for security is working.
I’m proud of the Federal Sky Marshals for showing that they can perform their job under difficult circumstances. And, might I also add that this should send a clear message to those “patients” who think they can walk away from their medication with no consequences.
This dumbass is dead because he didn’t stick with his medication. Simple enough. Sky Marshalls don’t have time to kid glove anyone and do an in-depth analysis of one’s fragile state of mind and/or ego. It’s not his wife’s fault. It’s not his doctor’s fault. And, it’s definitely not the sky marshalls’ fault, or that programs faults. Up yours Wolf Blitzer!
We are living in a post September 11th world. Get used to it, get used to it, get used to it, get used to it . . . .
Her fault? Really?
Well, I’d most likely attribute that line as either a misquote to Mr. Deshears, or to the woman’s frantic reaction after she saw her husband get shot. Most people lose all logic and will start to blame themselves if something happens to another person, espeically a loved one.
Mmh… Let’s be careful though, remember the London false terrorist : at first , it was presented as a superb job, and in the end it was more of a execution.
For example, when an agent says :
Before he ran off the plane he “uttered threatening words that included a sentence to the effect that he had a bomb”
He wasn’t aboard the plane, and say the victim uttered about a bomb. With the background noise of the engines, I have to speak out and loud to my neighbourg, so pretend the agents heard him utter about a bomb… Sounds too much like a ass-covering story.
But if in the end it is indeed what happenned, yes, these agents did their job properly and must be commended for it.
Not to make excuses for him, but my understanding of people who are bipolar - they don’t acknowledge the illness, therefore it is extremely difficult to get them to take the meds.
The ‘reasonable expectation’ standard shows that while this may have been a tragedy, it was a righteous shoot, and the FAMs are to be commended.
The plane had just come from Medellin, there is a angry man muttering about having a bomb (in the hearing of a Federal Marshal).
The FAM broke cover, drew down on the suspect, and ordered him to “freeze - put your hands on your head”. He broke and ran, pursued by one of the FAMs, while the other FAM (they never travel alone) controlled the aircraft and the remaining passengers.
The man started reaching into the bag, and they had no way of knowing either way. You cannot assume, and there were only three possible outcomes:
1) He surrenders, is found to be just a crazy man off his meds, he is treated and released. (Outcome: GOOD)
2) He surrenders, is found to be a drug mule or terrorist, is arrested, the rest of the plane is re-searched, and everyone gets on with their lives, albeit three hours later. (Outcome: GOOD)
3) He refuses to surrender disobeys the orders of the man with the “shoot to kill” authorization and makes a threatening move towards an unknown weapon, with the result that the superbly qualified Federal Air Marshall is forced to weigh one suspect’s life against his own (and many others), and puts one through the 10-ring. (Outcome: Reality)
The poor bipolar guy deserves our sorrow, but the FAMs deserve a medal.
By the time the ACLU,Lawyers and Various other lefties get done with this then no marshall will ever pull his gun again
Chris, give me a break already with this whole London “Oh, they killed an innocent man in cold blood” bullshit line, ok? Had the guy in London sat in his seat on the subway, even if they were following him and suspected him of being a terrorist, he wouldn’t have been shot just for sitting there and reading Vogue on the train. He had to have done something to alert and agitate the police. The cops there are not manicas for God’s sake. They don’t unload on someone who’s trying to eat their lunch, or reading a book. I know it’s nice to believe in this large conspiracy where the government is out to get your ass, but the fact is that everyone employed by the government, including the police, is a human being, and they have no interest in just killing someone in cold blood for no good reason. I seriously doubt that the cops in London just opened fire on the guy with not provocation. I don’t care what the papers say, police does not just kill for the hell of it. The guy acted like an idiot and he paid with his life.
And the air marshals in this situations were 100% correct. I have no idea why you automatically suspect foul play or incompetence right off the bat. These people don’t like to break cover for any reason simply because they don’t want anyone to know who they are and what they look like. For these two dudes to break cover and confront the guy, the situation must have warranted it. And so far, none of the passengers seem to indicate that the guy died for no good reason.
And even if he ran out of the plane when he got shot, he was still a possible threat to the rest of the airport. Had he had a bomb for real, even if he detonated it outside the airplane, the shockwaves could have still damaged, or even injured the passengers on board.
So, when it comes to safety of many against the life of a single person, I’m sorry, but it’s not much of a choice. Again, had the guy sit there drinking his coke, he would have still been alive today.
Sounds too much like a ass-covering story.
This may have been the first time they actually fired their weapons, but it sure hasn’t been the first times they have drawn weapons and identified themselves. If he hadn’t broke and run (just like guilty people do when conmfronted by law enforcement - it’s almost a cliche), and if he hadn’t made a grab towards the bag (with its still unidentified contents) after having been stopped, he would be bitching to reporters today, with Gloria whatshername standing next to him and his sobbing wife today, whining about how he was “mistreated”.
But he DID run, and he DID make a grab towards his bag while under the gun of at least one hyperalert FAM.
If it were an ass-covering statement, it’s certainly logical, and backed up by what all of the other witnesses described. I tend to believe him, given that there would have been no other reason - or need - for him to break cover like that. If it were just an angry Latino muttering under his breath (in South Florida, those DO grow on trees), he would have been more alert, but kept under cover, as would the other FAM, just as they have been trained.
But “bomb” is a trigger word.
Horrible that he wasn’t actually a terrorist—Great that the marshals displayed a fair use of deadly force. It will show terrorists that the US is serious about using aircraft… As long as the media doesn’t spin this so much they turn a success into a failure and marshals get gun shy and have to go to sensitivity training.
CNN’s already running stories about how the wife pleaded with the marshals. Even if they did hear her, why should they have listened? She could just as easily have been an accomplice helping him complete his “mission”. If you run when ordered to stop and reach for a backpack you said was a bomb you are asking to get popped.
CNN’s already running stories about how the wife pleaded with the marshals.
Good point, but, yeah, what liberal media?
Before the weekend, you’ll hear cries from some groups demanding that they be taken off planes.
As for me, I think they should paint a single bullet (or maybe a Red Crescent, but that’s probably a little too non-PC to fly) on the fuselage of every American Airlines plane, like military ships and planes used to do when making kills.
Pour encourager les outres…
If some idiot yells bomb then shot the bastard..if he is sick then im sorry but a thousand other lives take priority over one
I’m glad the air marshall took this guy down. He had no way of knowing if the threat was real or if he was just dealing with a crazy man. He also had no way of knowing if the wife was carrying on because he was a loon off his meds or if she was in on a plot to bomb the plane and/or the airport. The so called victim did everything right to get himself shot.
My wife works for the airlines at the boarding gate. She sees air marshalls all the time getting on planes, and in my opinion this marshall protected my wife’s life with his actions. Granted, different airport and different airline but the same thing could happen at any airport on any airline. And I am glad that we have people on these planes that will protect my wife and the general public. To hell with the whiners, we need more air marshalls, not less.
A little OT:
I like George Carlin’s idea to kill time in major airports.
It is statistically certain that somewhere within this international airport is a spy. My job? Find him!
Heh.
him, but my understanding of people who are bipolar - they don’t acknowledge the illness, therefore it is extremely difficult to get them to take the meds
My aunt is bipolar, she knows it and I have never seen her not take her medication.
Anne, frantically tried to explain he was bipolar, a mental illness also known as manic-depression, and was off his medication.
“She said it was her fault that he was bipolar,” said Mike Deshears, a Flight 924 passenger who works for a vacation club in Orlando. “He was sick and she had convinced him to get on the plane
They should shoot her too.
I’m sick of these fuckwads who either forget or go off their medication. If you have an illness that causes you to act like a lunatic and potentially endanger the public, it’s your responsbility to keep yourself medicated.
Otherwise.......well, I guess this is what you get.
Good riddance to this fool, and I hope this idiot of a wife can’t take the grief and joins him shortly.
I have never seen her not take her medication.
}blinkblink{
All due respect, and I’m pretty sure I know what you meant, but that is phrased very awkwardly, implying you would be able to prove a negative, which is impossible.
A more accurate phrasing (based solely on what I think you actually meant, so feel free to correct me if I am wrong) would probably be that you have never seen her act in a fashion that would make you suspect that she were not taking her meds.
If I’m wrong, please rephrase it more accurately, because I don’t understand…
Why in hell was he off his meds? I’ve been around bipolar people in the past. When they are off their lithium you might as well lock them in a cage and forget about them - they are tiresome assholes at best and life sucking emotional vampires most of the time.
my understanding of people who are bipolar - they don’t acknowledge the illness, therefore it is extremely difficult to get them to take the meds
Incorrect. Bipolar disorder is where you suffer from deep depressions and manic highs, which can last anywhere from minutes to weeks. My father is bipolar. The reason they tend not to take their medication is becuase not only does it take away the depression, but it also takes away the natural high they get from their disorder, so some tend to prefer going unmedicated, though the consequences can be devastating.
He and the rest of us will NEVER have a problem with him forgetting his meds, again. The issue has been answered. Step down. Next case!
Now, if ONLY we could apply these results to the homeless “problem” . . . .
My aunt is bipolar, she knows it and I have never seen her not take her medication.
Okay, sounds like what I had heard was incorrect then. Maybe it is just the individual. My daughter had a friend on her high school drill team who was diagnosed as bi-polar. Her parents had all kinds of problems with her. They said she insisted that nothing was wrong with her, and refused to take medication. She went from a beautiful, talented, straight A student to a high school dropout. Very sad situation.
So because a mentally-ill person may be off their meds our marshalls should not use deadly force when they claim to have a bomb?
I wonder if the same people making this argument would suggest a woman just lay there and be raped because she doesn’t know why the rapist is acting that way.
I’m not totally incorrect according to this --
The Online Medical Dictionary of Academic Medical Publishing & CancerWEB defines anosognosia as the “ignorance of the presence of disease (2003). The term comes from Greek in which nosos is the word for disease and gnosis is the word for knowledge. A literal translation is “to not know a disease” (TAC). It is the medical term used to describe a person’s impaired awareness or lack of insight into a disorder with which the person has been diagnosed. In other words, the individual does not recognize or believe they have the illness.This condition, believed to be caused by damage to the right side of the brain, affects as many as 40 percent of those with bipolar disorder. It is of serious concern because it is why many of these individuals are not medication compliant.
(I am having a hard time posting the link)
I have a friend who is a federal law enforcement agent (Not FAM though) who has implied that FAMs are not necessarily placed on random flights, but rather on flights that may have a higher probability of possible problems.
I wonder if Air Marshals are really put onto flights with higher sensitivity, such as flights with a statistically significant number of arabic males, flights from known terrorist regions (such as Colombia) international flights, etc.
With all the fuss from us conservatives about how the FAA bends over backwards to not single out Muslims and those with arabic sounding names during security screening, I think this would be an effective and unintrusive manner to prevent Air disasters.
If the FAM program is not already doing this I think they should look into it.
Sorry to drift off the topic of stupid people not taking meds…
So because a mentally-ill person may be off their meds our marshalls should not use deadly force when they claim to have a bomb?
Gripeboy, are you directing this to someone here, or making a general comment? I don’t think any of us here have said or implied such.
RM, I’m just anticipating the criticism from the LLL and MSM. It was a pre-emptive “Ah! Zip it!”
Not to make excuses for him, but my understanding of people who are bipolar - they don’t acknowledge the illness, therefore it is extremely difficult to get them to take the meds.
The patients diagnosed as bi-polar usually are a little easier to rationalize with. They usually know how f__ked up they get without their meds and will usually take them without prompting. Schizophrenics are the ones who don’t take their meds. This guy likely had many diagnoses (i.e. depression, bi-polar and schizophrenia) depending on which doctor he saw. Saying that he only had bi-polar is likely an oversimplification: this guy was clearly severely mentally ill.
This is a powerful motivator, as we have seen in cooperation from Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and other ostensibly hostile nations.
Lee don’t forget Libya: Mo shit his pants and gave up his carefully hidden nuclear reactor as soon as he realized Bush meant business. Lets not forget Syria either. Basher AssHat left Lebanon with his tail between his legs without even a threat from the US because he knew Bush would pound his ass if he didn’t
Gotcha, Gripeboy!
Speaking strictly from a law enforcement perspective, I’ve offered my take here.
we do have marshals on board, and they can and will use deadly force if necessary. If you were planning a terrorist op, you would have just scratched “airliner” from the top of your list.
How much of a deterrent is it if your mission is a suicide mission? I mean other than possibly not completing the act of terror - dying was in the cards to start with. i.e. 9-11
Even so, the marshal was justified in his actions - and saving lives is their charge. I’m glad that they are there - just not convinced with the logic that a potential bullet in the head is going to make a whole lot of difference to some fundamentalist whack jobs to the point that planes will be scratched off their list of targets.
How much of a deterrent is it if your mission is a suicide mission? I mean other than possibly not completing the act of terror
I think you just answered your own question.
The terrorists are mortified if they can’t complete their missions. They would have displeased Allah. I think it serves as a deterrent in the sense that they will choose another venue with a higher probability of success.
So, as it was stated, scratch the airliner.
My younger step-brother and my ex-wife are both bipolar. Both of them would routinely stop taking their meds. It’s a common occurrance with bipolar persons.
The problem is that their medication stops the swings. After awhile, they get to thinking that they are “cured” and no longer need the meds. Therefore they stop taking them and fall into the mood shifts again.
I have known many people with bipolar disorder due to going to group therapy sessions with my ex-wife. Most of the patients had a history of stopping their meds. There were very few exceptions.
Oh, and GB, I’m in Wilsonville, OR right now. Just off of exit 286.
Roadknight - Your explanation for the reason bi-polar folks stop taking their meds certainly makes sense.
From all the comments today, sounds like this is quite a common illness.
My niece has been diagnosed with it. She certainly has the mood swings - highs and lows. Depressed on day, laughing strangely the next. My daughter always questioned whether that was truly from an illness, or her (the niece) coming off a high from “other” drugs.
I hope Gripeboy checks in soon to see that you are in his state.
Again, stay safe on the highways.
RM: Why does everyone tell me to stay safe? Don’t you all realize that I’m one of those ultra-dangerous killer truckers out there just looking for a family to run over? Just kidding. Though I’m getting sick of being viewed that way by the media.
Dunno if GB will check in in time. I gotta leave outta here at 6am.
Hey, RK, if’n you ever make it to that stretch of I-10 between I-15 and Palm Springs, lemme know and we’ll try to hook up if you wanna…
Oh, and GB, I’m in Wilsonville, OR right now. Just off of exit 286.
I’m here! I had family over so I’m just checking in. Your up by the Holiday Inn? You can shoot me an email. Just follow the link to my “web page”.
Drum: I wasn’t far from there yesterday. I had a delivery in Whittier and then picked up on Compton. That’s the load that brought me up here. LOL.
GB: Email is on it’s way.
Ivan : ease up, ease up, I’m not making any accusation, only saying to be careful since these stories sometimes change between the moment they are told for the first time and a while after (like it did in London). IF it is what happened indeed, yes, the FAM did what they had to, and I’m sure this must be hard for them to know they shot an innocent guy, even if they cannot be blamed for it. The details Drumwaster gave tend to confirm the first version (details which weren’t in Lee’s featured article).
I’m not one of the moonbats always blaming the police for using force. But my concern is that for every suspect shot down, even if his demeanour was reckless, by fear that he might be a terrorist, it is a little victory for the real terrosists. They know they cannot defeat any western country, especially USA (the 2001 bombing barely shaken US economy and didn’t harm its military might in anyway), but they can creat an atmosphere here any suspect can be shot, here we fear boarding an airplane, taking a train, the mere sight of a bag scaring us. This is what they want. Ruin the liberty of democracies by chocking it with the grasp of fear.
USA were built on a great principle, that should inspire everyone of us : never trust your life or your liberty to any government. And now, by fear, we are allowing government agents to shoot at people, in the name of security.
Beyond this simple story, let us leave alone these FAM, don’t you think there is a more general danger that should alarm us ?
never trust your life or your liberty to any government.
But (according to the gun grabbers) they are the only ones who should be allowed to carry guns.
And now, by fear, we are allowing government agents to shoot at people, in the name of security.
And no allowances are to be made for the threat posed by that person, or the potential loss of life?
This cat did everything possible to trigger that lethal response, and to prevent it (and live through the ordeal), all he had to do was obey their orders. Hell, ANYONE can do “nothing”, but he chose to do something specifically threatening, even if there wasn’t any actual danger.
The FAMs had no way to know that, and couldn’t take the risk. This may have been tragic, but the FAMs deserve a medal.
I agree, the FAM did his job. But… When there is an investigation into this, and there will be, please don’t cry about it being the work of liberal moonbats. The FAM did his job, but it was an innocent death, so we need to look into how we can protect against that happening again - better that this FAM gets investigated and slapped on the back, than we just accept that FAM’s can kill anyone that they thnk is acting funny.
And by the way - the London shooting - MASSIVE cock up. The ‘suspicious’ thing he did was live in the same appartment block as some suspects. The Met tried (badly) to cover up their mistake - claiming he ran away (he didn’t) he was wearing a big bulky coat (he wasn’t) - another reason for an investigation.
than we just accept that FAM’s can kill anyone that they thnk is acting funny.
They CAN, especially if you define “acting funny” as “posing an immediate (if unmeasureable) threat of harm to innocents in the area”. This guy could have done any one of a dozen things differently and lived to whine about his harsh treatment.
He could have taken his meds.
He could have not been acting in such a manner that he caught the attention of at least two Federal agents.
He could have not chosen to make a threatening comment (sufficient to cause an undercover officer to break cover and draw his weapon).
He could have chosen not to run away from the agent with the drawn weapon.
Once he was stopped on the jetway, he could have obeyed the officer’s commands (like any sensible person would have done when confronted with two armed men identifying themselves as cops and with fingers inside the trigger guards).
He could have chosen not to grab for the bag (with the still unidentified contents).
Many others, I’m sure, but you get the point.
If there is a right way and a wrong way to handle things, the FAMs did everything they were trained to do, and this guy did everything he could to get shot.
No one is claiming that any (inevitable) investigation (which is already going on, BTW) is run by moonbats, what we’re saying is that those who will be screaming for the FAMs to be pulled off the airliners would be the moonbats, especially since (as Lee pointed out) we have just established a credible threat of force on the airliners, which will probably save a lot of lives in some future attack, because ‘airliners’ have just been crossed off the list…
And by the way - the London shooting - MASSIVE cock up. The ‘suspicious’ thing he did was live in the same appartment block as some suspects.
Irrelevant to this issue, either way. Eyewitnesses all agree to the basics, and even if there were no words spoken whatsoever, just the simple fact that a FAM thought him suspicious enough to draw his weapon on would have ended it right there (if the FAM was wrong, he would have gotten yelled at, and been assigned to a different sector of the country, but the passenger would have had nothing worse than dirty underwear and a memory), had he not precipitated the resulting shooting by running, then grabbing at his bag. There is no doubt about that whatsoever.
No body is complaining about an Investigation. Right now I’m more worried about the Persecution of the guy by the Media.
Already we have the same stupid questions like “Couldn’t they just shoot him in the leg?” I can’t even do that on a GOOD day at the range! And already one witness discounting what happened. Which is kind of like bizzare accounts the “Witnesses” in the Katrina Disaster Commitee are being subjected to.
Better yet watch for the screaming to start that we Police Officers need to have a cybernetic implant that can designate who’s Mentally Ill and who’s not, so we won’t kill them. Even if they are a threat to someone’s life.
Sorry for the rambling, I’m was getting PO’ed over the way the Media is setting up to beat this guy and turn the club around to bash Bush with when they’re done with the Air Marshal.
It’s a classic nightmare, but the bottom line was that the guy was told to stop numerous times and refused to do so. He then puts his hands where they cannot be seen. Th AM has a choice of stopping the guy or probably being pulverized into wet goo by what the bag might have in it. I probably would’ve have done the same damn thing!
But I am very pleased for the support you guys have show. Even you, Salinger!
Thank You!
Chris, give me a break already with this whole London “Oh, they killed an innocent man in cold blood” bullshit line, ok?
Speak of the devil.
OMG! EVIL CCTV BEING USED TO GET TO THE TRUTH!
THE HORROR!
People are saying “the marshalls should have subdued him” and all that bleeding heart crap. What I like is that we have shown how we shoot assholes on sight, and the fact that the guy wasn’t an Arab makes it all the sweeter. (Liberals can’t bitch about “racial profiling")
Next entry: Strategic Repackaging
Previous entry: When is Activist Season?
“She said it was her fault that he was bipolar,” said Mike Deshears, a Flight 924 passenger who works for a vacation club in Orlando.
Her fault? Really?