Catholic Curious
by Hal_10000
It’s too quiet around here. So let’s throw a religious bomb under the table.
I wanted to add something to WVR’s post about a catholic priest wanting to deny communion to people who don’t vote pro-life. To me, this is another repulsive attempt by religious leaders to leverage their flock’s religious beliefs into political power. They are saying that it is not enough for politicians (to whom they have also denied communion for pro-choice views) or members to live a moral Catholic life. No, to be Catholic, they must use the engine of government to force everyone else—Catholic, Protest, Jew, Muslim or athetist—to live accordingly to Catholic dogma. Otherwise, literally, to hell with them. This is a direct attack on the separation of Church and State and an extension of the institutional arrogance that led, among other things, to the priest molestation scandal.
But many of you disagree. “Hey, that’s their belief!” you say. And many conservative commentators agree as well.
So here’s my question:
The Catholic Church opposes birth control, sodomy and homosexuality. Would it be OK for them to deny communion to those who favor gay rights? Or allowing birth control? Or allowing oral sex?
The Catholic Church opposes the death penalty. Would it be OK for them to deny communion to those who support the death penalty? Or to prosecutors who seek it? Or judges who allow it? Or jurors who vote in favor of it?
The Catholic Church has traditionally had a leftist economic view. Would it be OK for them to deny communion to those who oppose welfare? Or foreign aid? Or socialized medicine?
What about torture? What about war?
This issue is not about abortion. It is about the Catholic Church attempting to use the threat of hell and damnation to influence domestic politics. They can’t back off of it (as the LDS is trying to do in re: Proposition 8) and say, “Hey! It’s our belief! You can’t criticize our belief!”. That would like Big Oil trying to say they’re just a business; or the UAW saying they’re just trying to work with management. Anyone who tries to influence politics has to expect blowback. And that goes double for those using the engine of the state to force their religious views on everyone else.
Flame away, my pretties.
Comments
This issue is not about abortion. It is about the Catholic Church attempting to use the threat of hell and damnation to influence domestic politics.
They have every right. If the bible says..., and that’s how they see it, then you follow the rules. If you want to be a part time religious person and pick and choose parts favorable to you, or want to view the bible in a different way, join a different religion. Personally, I just stay out of it altogether, but if the Church has a list of rules they expect one to follow, then one should follow them or go elsewhere.
Also, I don’t think they should be tax exempt when involving themselves in issues of the state. That’s the part that pisses me off.
Also, I don’t think they should be tax exempt when involving themselves in issues of the state. That’s the part that pisses me off.
I should clarify this by saying when they explicitly involve themselves in political policy such as what a person must vote for or against or for whom, as opposed to this is what we believe, use your judgment as a (put your religion here) when making your decisions.
I don’t really give a shit what they within the confines of their own club/business. If they want to treat their cash cow like shit for not playing the mind-control game properly, then I suppose some other group will lasso them in for the money by being more “tolerant"…
To me this is no different than if the Elks wanted to boot out some members for not buying enough drinks each month, or got caught giving out the secret handshake. All groups have the right to say who gets to be a member and what the criteria is.
I agree that the Church has a right to boot out whoever they want, even if that is stupid. But I suspect the motive here is not to purify the faith of heretics, but to gain leverage over politicians.
I suspect that has a lot to do with it, but I think they will find that, unlike a few centuries ago, they lack the juice and influence to achieve any real leverage.
I wanted to add something to WVR’s post about a catholic priest wanting to deny communion to people who don’t vote pro-life. To me, this is another repulsive attempt by religious leaders to leverage their flock’s religious beliefs into political power.
Calm down! Since when is ONE Catholic priest making this statement qualify as “religious leaders”. There must be thousands, if not tens of thousands of Catholic priests in the world. When the POPE or a Bishop or something makes this comment, it is time to get up in arms. In the meantime, just chill!
I’ll wade in a bit. First, I am an atheist adn think abortion should be legal.
Now, according to Cathiolic Doctrine, having an abortion is the same as infanticide. It is murder. If a Catholic priest came out and said that Catholics that support infanticide should be denied communion would there be much controversy? To the Catholic Church they are the same thing.
Now as far as the death penalty goes, the Catholic Church opposes, but doesn’t view it as seriously as abortion because murdrers are not innocent of sin-fetuses and babies are. The death penalty also kils a small fraction of the number that abortion does.
The Catholic Church opposes birth control, sodomy and homosexuality. Would it be OK for them to deny communion to those who favor gay rights? Or allowing birth control? Or allowing oral sex?
Catholic priests have denied sacraments to those that use birth control (chiefly confession and absolution). And oral sex is not specifically a sin to Catholics.
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This comment is likely to shock some here-- especially Lee, to whom I’ve been especially combative lately. But, here goes:
Let’s get down to brass tacks. The Catholic Church is a (huge, worldwide) BUSINESS. In fact, all churches are businesses. Sure, they’re unique in that (a) they get some of their employees-- priests, nuns, etc.-- to take vows of poverty (so that the CEOs can make more money of course), and (b) that they’re a business expressly addressed in the First Amendment to the American constitution. But other than that… it’s a thousands-of-years-old, and still quite lucrative BUSINESS.
So, in a free society such as ours, can they chase away whatever customers-- oops, CONGREGANTS-- they choose, for any reason they choose? IMHO, sure they can. But is it good for the business? Or the philosophy of the business (i.e., the Bible)? Probably not.
BTW, every person, political persuasion, spiritual persuasion, and business also has its own version of ‘hell and damnation.’ What does Big Oil say when it doesn’t get its way? “Gee, we didn’t win the right from Congress to drill in the middle of cemeteries, I guess we’ll have to raise barrel prices again.” However transparent it may seem, there’s a reliable segment of the population that responds in quite the business-in-question’s favor to these types of threats-- oops, I mean, opportunities.
And also FWIW-- and for about the 9 billionth time here at RTLC-- I’ll say it again for the nonbelievers here: No, I don’t think government should be in anyway involved in the support or repression of anyone’s religious belief. Treat the Catholic Church’s lobbying efforts exactly the same as you would treat Big Oil’s, Big Tobacco’s, or any other profit-minded Big Business. That’s what it all boils down to: business.