But It’s Cute When We Do It
by Hal_10000
Glenn Greenwald highlights a pair of telling quotes from the torture memos:
the United States condemns coercive interrogation techniques and other practices employed by other countries. Certain of the techniques the United States has condemned appear to bear some resemblance to CIA interrogation techniques.
...
The State Department’s inclusion of nudity, water dousing, sleep deprivation, and food deprivation among the conduct it condemns is significant and provides some indication of an executive foreign relations tradition condemning the use of these techniques.
In short? They knew this was torture. They openly acknowledge that it’s torture when other countries do it. But they still authorized it, using lawyer weasel words to try to move around the letter of the law.
I’ve been reading the memos at the ACLU’s site. This is just the tip of the iceberg. My blood boils.
Sullivan has a long commentary that’s worth reading. Money quote:
Looked at from a distance, the Bush administration wanted to do two things at once: to declare to the world that freedom is on the march, and human rights are coming to the world with American help, while simultaneously declaring to captives that the US has no interest in the law, human rights, accountability, transparency or humanity. They wanted to give hope to all the oppressed of the planet, while surgically banishing all hope from the prisoners they captured and tortured. And the only way they could pull this off is by the total secrecy they constructed and defended. So we had a public government respectful of the rule of law, and a secret government whose main goal was persuading terror suspects that there was no rule of law at all. It is hard to convey just how dangerous this was and is.
Moreover, this was done by the professional classes in this society. It was not done by Lynndie England or some night-shift sadists at Abu Ghraib. According to these documents, almost nothing that was done at Abu Ghraib was outside the limits agreed to by Bush - and much of what was done at Abu Ghraib was mild in comparison. So when the president acted “shocked” at what we all saw, and said it was not America, he was also authorizing far worse in secret - and systematizing it long after Abu Ghraib was over. He was either therefore a fantastic liar on one of the gravest matters imaginable or so psychologically compartmentalized and prone to rigid denial of reality and so unversed in history, law and morality that he had no reason being president.
This is bigger than a few guys getting water-boarded. This is a President lying to us with a straight face when he reacted to Abu Ghraib. This is a President authorizing torture and then letting some low-level grunts take the fall when it came out. This is a President essentially declaring that he is the law—that torture is bad unless he says so. Lee called Bush’s anti-terror policies a “star chamber” and you will never get a more accurate description of such a chamber than you will see in these memos.
I’ve been highly critical of Obama lately. But ending this stuff and exposing the people who betrayed our nation’s principles is something I can support. It’s something that, in the long run, I believe will make our nation safer.
I was recently reading a book about the Holocaust that talked of Jews fleeing the concentration camps westward, hoping to be liberated by the Americans rather than the Russians. The reason was because they knew the Americans would treat them well.
We never completely lost that status as a beacon of salvation—American soldiers are too good and moral for even their Commander in Chief to corrupt them. But we took some body blows. Hopefully, we’re on the way back to the point where no one can question our moral authority.
Comments
Furthermore, by linking to Sullivan, you’re obviously wicked gay.
That’s the standard people are looking for around here these days, right?
Sean, that’s as assholish as a typical WVR comment. Sullivan is a lowlife and it has not one god-damned thing to do with his being gay.
Careful how wide you swing that brush.
My favorite piece of hypocrisy from Sully is how concerned he is with the mental anguish suffered by victims of torture, but he never gave a fuck about the mental anguish he cause the children and family of Sarah Palin with his lunatic obsession (that STILL CONTINUES) over Trig.
Fuck that asshole and I question the judgement of anyone who takes him seriously (and yes, that INCLUDED Lee, I had many a conversation about Sully with him). Sorry Hal, but Sullivan’s a piece of shit. Everything he says or writes is tainted by his hypocrisy and insanity.
We’ll have to agree to disagree on Sullivan’s lowlifeness.
My comment was obvious, to me at least, a satirical poke at those who would dismiss the substance of a Sullivan based-post automatically just because he wrote it in line with my comment above it.
I agree that his focus on Trig was strange and obsessive. I’m pretty sure, though, that it did not amount to actual torture remotely comparable to that which was inflicted by the US. Apples and oranges, Jim, and you know it. Were there any reports that the Palin children even knew who Sullivan was? I ignored that whole aspect of his blog, and in the media in general, so I have no idea.
I’m pretty sure, though, that it did not amount to actual torture remotely comparable to that which was inflicted by the US.
Which isn’t what I said at all…
Nevermind. You support the guy, I think he’s fucking despicable, a complete hypocrite and one huge stain on blogging and journalism. I suppose we’ll have to leave it there.
And, at least, on the torture issue, he’s been bang on right and at the forefront of the issue for about as long as just about anyone. Even for those who think a broken clock is wrong most of the time, would admit it is right at least twice a day.
To further torture your metaphor, I think Sully’s only right once a day. He’s one of the people that have defined torture down SO far that the word is almost meaningless to the average person out there in “I barely read a newspaperland.”
He took what was a reasonable position and applied his usual hysterical madness to it until every fucking thing was now “torture.” Gave a guy too much salt? TORTURE. Only let him get 4 hours of sleep instead of eight? TORTURE. Made him read The Atlantic? TORTURE.
Wait that last one is actually torture.
I kid, but not by much. He went well past the line of reasonable discourse on this - like every other issue lately. So no, I don’t think he’s right twice a day. I think he once was, but now we’re lucky if he gets the year right much less the time.
And he’s a cruel, hypocritical, semi-deranged scumbag.
I’ve been highly critical of Obama lately. But ending this stuff and exposing the people who betrayed our nation’s principles is something I can support. It’s something that, in the long run, I believe will make our nation safer.
It’s a seriously ballsy move for the Commander in Chief to make. I’m glad he did it - he gets big points for it in my book.
Jim, I’ll agree that Sullivan’s Palin thing is borderline obsessive. I e-mailed him several times last year (and posted here) about how ignorant and petty he sounded.
nudity, water dousing, sleep deprivation, and food deprivation/quote]THIS is torture?! I bet they gave them haircuts too!
Sorry… But it doesn’t pass the “I’d rather” test… I’d rather be waterboarded or any of those things for a weekend than go to jail for a year.
I’d rather go to jail for a year than have my fingernails removed, my skin cut, other actual bodily harm, etc…
Joe and jim, are we going to have this argument again?
Forced nudity is considered torture under US law.
Sleep deprivation is considered torture under any civilized country. Contra Jim, sleep deprivation means 96 straight hours without sleep, repeatedly, a process that leaves someone a shattered wreck incapable of functioning. Victims can take years to recover from it, if they ever recover at all.
Food deprivation is considered torture under US law.
Waterboarding is absolutely considered torture under US law. We killed nazis for practicing it.
Stress positions, in which someone is forced into an uncomfortable position for hours on end, is considered an unusually cruel torture. It’s the modern cell of little ease.
Even forced standing. Sounds innocuous, right? Read Solzhenitsyn’s first-hand account:
Then there is the method of simply compelling a prisoner to stand there ... Sometimes even one day of standing is enough to derpive a person of all his strength and force him to testify to anything at all.
Read some first-hand account before you write these things off as not torture.
And even if we open that debate again, what’s the fucking point? Torture doesn’t work. Solzhenitsyn described the exact same torture techniques Bush authorized—but they were not used to gain intelligence. They were used to gain confessions to crimes against the state. We know that the Bushies ran out and arrested innocent people, issued needless terror alerts and attacked harmless sites based on information from torture.
When the Soviets wanted actual intelligence, they used techniques that would come right out of the Army Field Manual—ego up, ego down, good cop bad cop (w/o violence) and so on. And they were only bound by expediency, not treaties. And the same goes with the GWOT. You know how we got Abu Musab al-Zarqawi? Because we had a Taliban prisoner and flattered him until he started boasting about all he knew.
Didn’t think I’d have to say this to YOU, Hal, but please direct comments to me based on things I say, not things you imagine I say or things others say.
I do not believe that saying ANYTHING to a prisoner is torture. I advocate telling any and every lie you want to get someone to talk in interrogation.
I’m also a proponent of the threat of physical abuse. Sorry, but threatening someone isn’t torture. Following through on the threat? Could be. Probably is. Problem is the threat only works until the subject realizes you won’t follow through, but that’s neither here nor there.
I specifically said I condone MENTAL games. I’m not sure what is acceptable as far as physicality goes...I know that sleep *disruption* seems fine to me. NOT DEPRIVATION. Disruption. I don’t condone waterboarding anymore now that I know more about it.
But again, not sure why this is an issue right now. Oh wait yes I do. Obama needed a distraction from the fairly respectable protests that are getting more and more attention. He needed people to stop talking about HIS abuses of power by drawing attention to a former president.
I should also say, I believe that fake menstrual blood bullshit is SO fucking NOT torture and that was the straw for me...calling that torture is defining the word downward until it no longer has meaning.
Sleep deprivation is considered torture under any civilized country. Contra Jim, sleep deprivation means 96 straight hours without sleep, repeatedly, a process that leaves someone a shattered wreck incapable of functioning. Victims can take years to recover from it, if they ever recover at all.
And as a survivor of graduate school, you’d know better than most.
Seriously though, the key point here is that the US government has condemned it when other countries do it. As Hal put it:
They openly acknowledge that it’s torture when other countries do it.
That, to me, is enough to convince me that this was morally wrong.
I should also say, I believe that fake menstrual blood bullshit is SO fucking NOT torture and that was the straw for me...calling that torture is defining the word downward until it no longer has meaning.
One man’s torture is another man’s great night out in Vegas.
Sorry if I misunderstood you, Jim.
Joe and jim, are we going to have this argument again?
Forced nudity is considered torture under US law.
Sleep deprivation is considered torture under any civilized country. Contra Jim, sleep deprivation means 96 straight hours without sleep, repeatedly, a process that leaves someone a shattered wreck incapable of functioning. Victims can take years to recover from it, if they ever recover at all.
Food deprivation is considered torture under US law.
Waterboarding is absolutely considered torture under US law. We killed nazis for practicing it.
Stress positions, in which someone is forced into an uncomfortable position for hours on end, is considered an unusually cruel torture. It’s the modern cell of little ease.
The funny thing is that the SAS and other special forces around the world use these techniques to prepare troops in the event that they are themselves tortured.
I really do question the mentality of the hypocritical pro-torture right like JimK who one moment preaches questions such as “Does this thing I am analyzing advance the concepts of liberty and freedom, or does it restrict them? “
and the next is advocating the use of systematic torture all the while hiding behind a laughable small government banner.
I really do question the mentality of the hypocritical pro-torture right like JimK
Wow.
How can a human with eyes be THIS stupid?
Wow.
How can a human with eyes be THIS stupid?
That’s right, ignore what was actually said.
Are you still running a website against Michael Moore (along with being vociferously against public healthcare) whilst taking money off him at the same time, hypocrite?
I knew losing Lee would make this blog worse, I just didn’t think that in his absence he would be replaced by a hypocrite of this magnitude.
Anyone else want to point out this ignorant fuck’s biggest mistake?
Anyone else want to point out this ignorant fuck’s biggest mistake?
I’ll give it a shot
Are you still running a website against Michael Moore (along with being vociferously against public healthcare) whilst taking money off him at the same time, hypocrite?
Michael Moore (a private citizen) giving money to Jim (a private citizen) has nothing to do with Jim’s problem with a government run socialized medical system, regardless, Jim didn’t know who gave the money when he took it. You have poor critical thinking skills.
That works, but I was thinking about the detailed comments I left demonstrating how *not* pro-torture I am…
Paul, you will find I am far, far less tolerant of trolls than almost anyone else on the internet. I could not care less if you disagree with me, but I will not have you trolling me over Moore shit or anything else.
I’m not Pro-torture either… but in this age loud music is considered torture, and I’m hesitant to let the label be applied to anything as people try to co-opt the language. I do admit I can see how this all could be considered torture, and to the degree Hal talks about it definitely is abusive.
Sorry if I misunderstood you, Jim.
S’cool. Sorry if I jumped down your throat a little. Blogging politics brings out the asshole in me. It’s why I kind of quit for so long. I - and everyone else it seems - get real prickish when we should just be talking and debating. So...sorry if I was a dick.
That’s right, ignore what was actually said.
No one is ignoring what was actually said but you. Jim specifically delineated that he was NOT pro-torture, merely that he thought the definition of torture used by some people was too broad. In fact he went so far as to agree with Hal that much of what he had outlines WAS torture in his eyes. If you would like to engage in debate you might want to ensure your facts are straight, which in this case are clearly not.
Are you still running a website against Michael Moore (along with being vociferously against public healthcare) whilst taking money off him at the same time, hypocrite?
Yes, Jim and I still run Moorewatch. Yes, we are both opposed to UNIVERSAL healthcare. This does not mean either of us is against any form of PUBLIC healthcare such as Medicare or Medicaid. There is an enormous difference between the two, one that is apparently lost on you.
Now, on to the money. Clearly you haven’t bothered to do the slightest bit of research on the subject, which tells me that you are willing to enter into discourse on a subject while knowing none of the facts. Says quite a bit about you, doesn’t it?
The facts. Jim and I were sent a completely anonymous and untraceable donation, which we accepted. ONE YEAR LATER Michael Moore revealed the donation was from him. We never *knowingly* accepted money from Michael Moore and it did not occur in any way as it was portrayed in the film. This does not make us ungrateful for the donation, but it does make me at least angry at the way in which the donation was used and portrayed in the film.
Can you tell me how ANY of this is hypocritical? Even Moore himself has said repeatedly that he hopes Moorewatch will continue to run if that’s what Jim wants. If Moore is okay with it… why aren’t you?
If you’d care to respond with any intelligence or facts to back up your claims at that point I will be happy to respond to you. Until then, I suggest you do some research because right now you are only serving to make yourself look foolish.
There is no need to answer any of Paul’s retarded questions. He’s a through and through 9/11 truther.
Check out what he has to say about it. Check out this whole thread… Donna. Jim, Don’t give him the time of day. He’s a fucking whackjob....
http://tinyurl.com/d262mw
And even if we open that debate again, what’s the fucking point? Torture doesn’t work. Solzhenitsyn described the exact same torture techniques Bush authorized—but they were not used to gain intelligence. They were used to gain confessions to crimes against the state. We know that the Bushies ran out and arrested innocent people, issued needless terror alerts and attacked harmless sites based on information from torture.
I suppose I’ll bang this drum again: One of the oft repeated arguments against torture is that it doesn’t ever work. The logic of the paragraph above is a great example of this theme. Because the Soviets used torture as a political tool to repress dissidents, it must not work in any situation. So if the Soviets used grain distribution as a political tool to repress dissidents, that must never work either right? Better stop delivering food.
Here’s a quote from two people who atually know what they are talking about:
The terrorist Abu Zubaydah (sometimes derided as a low-level operative of questionable reliability, but who was in fact close to KSM and other senior al Qaeda leaders) disclosed some information voluntarily. But he was coerced into disclosing information that led to the capture of Ramzi bin al Shibh, another of the planners of Sept. 11, who in turn disclosed information which—when combined with what was learned from Abu Zubaydah—helped lead to the capture of KSM and other senior terrorists, and the disruption of follow-on plots aimed at both Europe and the U.S.
See here: http://tinyurl.com/dgtoyq
What do they know, they just directed operations that captured terrorists based on information obtained by torture (they don’t call it that, of course).
People that argue that torture never works blur two different scenarios:
A) Grab random people and torture them and see what you come up with
and
B) Torture people you are sure-or pretty sure-have information that you want.
The link shows that amazingly enough, the people in the CIA aren’t idiots. When they tortured someone they started asking questions that they already knew the answer to-but that the victim didn’t know that the CIA knew. If they gave bullshit answers-apply more torture. If they give correct answers, move on to other things.
Now I really don’t think we should be torturing people, but if you keep repeating the “torture never works” line, then you weaken your argument. Just like saying it violates the Geneva Convention rights of the Jihadi asswhipes (they don’t have Geneva Convention rights).
but if you keep repeating the “torture never works” line, then you weaken your argument.
That is something I have always felt. I don’t know about you but if a guy even just points a gun at me there isn’t a whole lot I wouldn’t tell him let alone if I was being tortured.
Torture doesn’t work
The CIA and their obviously disagreed :/ And I’m still not calling this exactly “torture”
If the torture we used under Bush is as banal as they want us to believe, then why are they so insistant that it must be retained beause it works? And, how can Obama have damaged National Security by letting terrorist know what we might do if Obama has banned those practices anyway?
There is no need to answer any of Paul’s retarded questions. He’s a through and through 9/11 truther.
Dakrat beat me to that point. EVERYTHING paul says is automatically retarded.
Also, bringing up Moore’s anonymous contribution without knowing what the hell you’re talking about was a grade-A dick move, paul86. If you’re even capable of being ashamed, you should be now.
If the torture we used under Bush is as banal as they want us to believe, then why are they so insistant that it must be retained beause it works? And, how can Obama have damaged National Security by letting terrorist know what we might do if Obama has banned those practices anyway?
If you know what to expect when you are captured then you can train to resist it-that’s the point of the SERE training that a lot of these techniques came from.
Also if you know the absolute limits of what will be done to you8 it is easier to resist. If technique A makes you pretty uncomfortable but you can hold one, knowing for sure that technique A is as bad as it gets makes it easier to resist. If there is in your mind the possiblility that Technique A could be followed by techniques B through Z, you probably don’t want to find out through personal experience what those are.
And the worst thing is that this is all part of the sorry-we-were-so-evil-please-forgive-us-can-I-suck-your-dick-while-you-kick-me foreign policy. No president in history has apologized for his country more. Our president has made it loud and clear to the world that he thinks we are evil pricks.
Not even Carter was this bad.
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The President said the US doesn’t torture. Clearly, you must hate America if you disagree.