Anarchy For Dummies
by
Even with a manual, this dipshit couldn’t get it right:
Anarchist manual, firearms found in motel room with ricin
LAS VEGAS, Nevada (CNN) —Officers who found the deadly poison ricin in a Las Vegas, Nevada, extended-stay hotel room also discovered firearms and an “anarchist-type textbook” with an entry about ricin bookmarked, police said Friday.
The deadly poison ricin and an “anarchist-type textbook” were found in a room in this Las Vegas hotel.
Two tests had confirmed the substance found was ricin, and that a man who was staying there has been hospitalized for more than two weeks and is in critical condition, police said Friday.
The 57-year-old man, whose name was not released, summoned authorities February 14 and asked to be transported to a hospital because of difficulty breathing, Kathy Suey, deputy chief of the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department, told reporters.
“Help! I have plans to destroy the government and can’t get up!”
“At this point we feel extremely positive we have all the ricin involved and there is no terrorist threat,” Lombardo said.
How is an anarchist manual, ricin, guns and a Vegas hotel room not a terrorist threat? Just because this is most likely a lone dipshit doesn’t mean there is no threat. Ya, I know they’re saying there is no threat now that they have the situation contained but they seem to be trying to gloss over the reality that this ass had something sinister in mind. Who the hell has an anarchist manual, guns and a deadly toxin in a hotel room? Maybe he’s a friend of Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols and just lookin’ to party.
Update by Lee: Silly GripeBoy. Everyone knows that terrorists are all Muslim. We’d never waterboard an American citizen, unless he had scary brown skin and a weird name like “Muhammad.”
Comments
Maybe I misunderstood something about this story, but did I hear it right that the cops came, took the guy, then some family member showed up for his possessions and found the ricin? Because something about this situation ...
... stinks.
The anarchist cookbook makes interesting reading, but only a total nut would be making ricin.
I have a manual that tells how to convert my 10/22 to selective fire for full auto using common garage tools, but I haven’t done it.
The guy is a dipshit, but needs to be taken seriously. Who knows what mayhem he might get into if left alone…
Because something about this situation ...
... stinks.
LOL!! I just got that.
I’ve had a copy of the Anarchist Cookbook since 1987, when I shoplifted both it and the Satanic Bible from a bookstore in Houston. As SO said, it makes for interesting reading, but you’d have to be a fucking retard to actually try any of that shit.
As SO said, it makes for interesting reading, but you’d have to be a fucking retard to actually try any of that shit.
I got my hands on a copy from a couple of hillbilly neighbors who had it. I’ve always wondered if any of it actually worked.
I remember there was a passage about putting windex in a plastic bag, and putting that in a car’s Gas tank. The gas melts the plastic bag and the reaction of the Windex mixing with gasoline makes KABOOM happen.
I was a bagboy in a Grocery Store at the time, and often thought how cool I was going to be when I did that to my manager’s new Camaro.
Silly GripeBoy. Everyone knows that terrorists are all Muslim. We’d never waterboard an American citizen, unless he had scary brown skin and a weird name like “Muhammad.”
We’ve only waterboarded three times.
And what say you on this matter?
This is the part where you can’t have it both ways. Here is a situation where the government can use this to whip up any kind of terror hysteria, but did not. AAAANNNNND FWIW he has not commited an act of terror.
Man has several vials of ricin poison...suspect. Terrorist? Only in so much as a conspiracy to do so.
If he was smart he didn’t write in the highlighted portion of the book “I will drop the Ricin into the AC of the Wynn on Feb 2x, 2xxx.”
Jose Padilla unfortunately DID demonstrate a working knowledge of being able to call Poppa Bin Laden on the phone.
We’ve only waterboarded three times.
And that is a joke, BTW…
And what say you on this matter?
This is the part where you can’t have it both ways. Here is a situation where the government can use this to whip up any kind of terror hysteria, but did not. AAAANNNNND FWIW he has not commited an act of terror.
Exactly. And this demonstrates clearly that we can use the existing criminal justice system to prosecute terrorists, without torturing them. If the whole idea is that we’re torturing terrorists to extract “valuable information,” why aren’t we torturing this guy to find out whether or not he’s an Al Qaeda operative? Because he’s an American citizen, captured on American soil? So was Jose Padilla, but that didn’t stop us from locking him up without trial and violating his Constitutional rights.
No, the reason we didn’t consider this guy a terrorist is because he’s not a Muslim. If his name had been “Muhammad al Ibrahim al Mazawi” he’d be waterboarded in Gitmo before you could say the word “torture.”
why aren’t we torturing this guy to find out whether or not he’s an Al Qaeda operative?
Not that I’m in favor of torture, but if you torture a guy in a coma, won’t he still be in a ... coma?
And this demonstrates clearly that we can use the existing criminal justice system to prosecute terrorists, without torturing them.
We could if we wanted to grant them the same rights as we have, but we do not because they are not American citizens.
How do you intend to solve the roblem of Saudi Arabia taking their suspects back and releasing them immediately? Is that fair?
If the whole idea is that we’re torturing terrorists to extract “valuable information,” why aren’t we torturing this guy to find out whether or not he’s an Al Qaeda operative?
I love it. We don’t even know what the guy was up to, and our bowling ball has already been flung into the ‘torture’ gutter, and once again without striking a pin.
Lee, he’s probably not on his way to Gitmo because our system of justice works, as unpopular as you make it sound. He is a citizen and he has rights granted to him.
He’s not being ‘tortured’ (my how that word has been degraded to nothing)because there is nothing to be gained from him. He’s an idiot with a copy of the Anarchists Cookbook.
As an aside, I think it’s a spectacular display what what can be spun these days.
Ruh Roh, guys! YOu might want to check back into the drudge and acknowledge that this was a whole lotta nuthin.
If you read on, the person in the coma has been identified as having a funny name. He’s also damn near dead (like CinaJ is trying to tell you) his ‘relative’ has been updated to ‘relation’ (see the section called ‘taking it up the ass’ for details) and this did involve the DHS.
*looks up at sails that have just gone flat*
Ruh Roh, guys! YOu might want to check back into the drudge and acknowledge that this was a whole lotta nuthin.
I don’t see anything there that explains what this fuckwit was doing with an anarchist manual, guns and ricin in a Vegas hotel room. I’ll wait.
“Shoot, a feller could have a pretty good time in Vegas with all that stuff!”
I don’t see anything there that explains what this fuckwit was doing with an anarchist manual, guns and ricin in a Vegas hotel room. I’ll wait.
I don’t know either, but DHS seems to be convinced he’s probably not that capable of a terrorist:
On Tuesday, management at the hotel began eviction procedures and called Las Vegas police after discovering four firearms in the suite, the Homeland Security memo states.
Police then found an anarchist textbook that was “tabbed” to a section on ricin, Lombardo said.
That discovery prompted police investigators to test the room for the deadly substance. The test was negative.
On Thursday, a man who “claimed to be a relative” was in the suite and discovered several vials of ricin in a bag, along with castor beans from which the substance is derived, Suey said.
Police have not identified the man, whom they said was 53 years old. But the Homeland Security document identified him as Thomas Tholen.
Unless, you now would like anyone found in possesion of firearms, ricin, and hospitalized with a coma due to ricin poisoning to go to Gitmo, which I didn’t think you advocated.
“Shoot, a feller could have a pretty good time in Vegas with all that stuff!”
The only thing missing is adrenacoline.
Speaking of waterboarding, I think we should hold a waterboarding telethon for these fuckers to help defray their victim’s expenses:
LAS VEGAS - A former patient sued a surgical center believed to have spread hepatitis C by reusing syringes and vials of medication, saying Thursday he fears for his health.
The suit comes a day after the Southern Nevada Health District announced that unsafe practices at the clinic may have led to six reported cases of hepatitis C, a potentially fatal blood-borne virus.
Another 40,000 people who received anesthesia at the Endoscopy Center of Southern Nevada between March 2004 and January 2008 are being urged to be tested for hepatitis, strains C and B, and HIV.
I’m only half-kidding about waterboarding as sport for these assholes…
We could if we wanted to grant them the same rights as we have, but we do not because they are not American citizens.
This is such horseshit. If a non-citizen immigrant robs a liquor store, he’s granted every fucking Constitutional right that you and I are. Besides, you’re doing exactly the same thing all torture apologists have been doing for the last few years, painting the picture as if there are only two options: either we give terrorists full Constitutional rights, or we strip them of every basic, fundamental human right and do with them as we please, in any conceivable manner we see fit.
This is crap. I am completely open to the argument that a bona fide terrorist, such as the 9/11 plotters, can be given special designations, provided their not American citizens. HOWEVER, this special designation (i.e. enemy combatant) should still follow fundamental legal procedure, with as much transparency as is possible and prudent.
You know, the way civilized nations act.
How do you intend to solve the roblem of Saudi Arabia taking their suspects back and releasing them immediately? Is that fair?
So we don’t give them back to Saudi Arabia. Problem solved.
I’m only half-kidding about waterboarding as sport for these assholes…
This actually dovetails nicely with a point I have been making for years on the subject of torture. Most of torture’s most vociferous proponents (i.e. Manwhore) couch their argument in terms of “gathering vital intelligence,” when the truth of the matter is that they just want to enjoy what I have named “Screaming Arab Syndrome.”
Waterboarding as punishment is one thing. I agree with you, anyone involved in this needle-sharing crap does, on every fundamental level, deserve a gruesome punishment for their misdeeds. However, they will not receive it, because we are a civilized nation. Prison, fines, and so on, this is how we solve our problems.
So, given that I have clearly demonstrated countless times that not only does torture not work but is actually detrimental to the job of gathering intelligence, and given that to date not ONE PERSON has been able to produce scholarly, respected research or other evidence claiming that torture is a good method of intelligence-gathering, the only possible reason for still supporting it is vengeance, pure blood lust. “He’s a terrist, and I don’t give a fuck about him.” (If I had a dollar for every time some torture supporter used some variation of that theme I’d be a very rich man.)
I view “terrorist” in much the same way I view “criminal.” Until their is a legal adjudication determining someone is guilty of a crime, they are entitled to the presumption of innocence. Once that determination is made, hey, have fun getting raped in the shower. Until their guilt is established, however, they are not criminals, only accused criminals.
And, in exactly the same manner, until someone is found guilty or otherwise deemed to be a “terrorist” via some sort of transparent legal process, then all we’re dealing with is “accused terrorists.” Given the amount of carnage that a terrorist can cause, I have no problem with a special designation for them. But it should still be, say, 80% of what they would be entitled to if they were accused of sawing the heads of kindergardeners and eating their genitals.
This actually dovetails nicely with a point I have been making for years on the subject of torture. Most of torture’s most vociferous proponents (i.e. Manwhore) couch their argument in terms of “gathering vital intelligence,” when the truth of the matter is that they just want to enjoy what I have named “Screaming Arab Syndrome.”
I don’t harbor any overt ill will towards Arabs. As for “Screaming Arab Syndrome” I’d say that a case of ‘Stockholm Syndrome’ could be made for the ‘who cries for the Johnnie Jihad?’ crowd.
I don’t harbor any overt ill will towards Arabs. As for “Screaming Arab Syndrome” I’d say that a case of ‘Stockholm Syndrome’ could be made for the ‘who cries for the Johnnie Jihad?’ crowd.
Thank you for proving my point so fucking perfectly? Do you see what you just said? “The who cries for Johnni Jihad cowd. Let’s break this own.
1. People who disagree with torture are “crying for” these prisoners.
2. The implicit inference is that those of us who oppose torture are therefore weak.
3. A “powerful man” in comparison would shed no tear for Johnni Jihadi. In fact, he’d show him what a macho bad-ass he is by torturing him.
4. This also, unfortunately, with Johnny Jihadi actually being a terrorist. Which he was, with a stroke of Emperor Bush’s pen. Who needs a pesky thing like evidence when we’ve got the word of a Sunni snitch that that Shiite right there is a by-Allah terrist!
5. Since torture has been clearly shown not to work, and in fact produces a lower amount of actionable intelligence, there is no rational explanation for why one would continue to support it when there is not a shred of evidence to show this is true,
6. People who therefore continue to steadfastly support torture (Manwhore) and denounce those of us who oppose torture as weaklings who cry for the enemy, the reasoning is clear. Vengeance and bloodlust. “Screaming Arab Syndrome.”
Strange to see the flags on the names. I’m in China arguing with someone in America over why torture is bad. I mean, China tortures people. And now, sadly, we have joined their ignoble ranks.
Thank you for proving my point so fucking perfectly?
No, thank you for missing mine so perfectly. There is a clear dileniation between Arab peoples and an enemy we are fighting. I clearly defined it for you. You’re amazing at scooping things that are distinct and muttling them together, I’ll give you that.
Here, I’ll make the point for you again:
Vietnamese (does not equal) Viet Cong.
I think it is you who is confused as to who the enemy is.
1. People who disagree with torture are “crying for” these prisoners.
Everyone disagrees with torture. the question you are incorrectly defining, again, is what we have done in our possession, ‘on our land’, torture? We know we did it in Abu Ghirab, and we also admonished it from the top brass level right down to punishing those responsible.
2. The implicit inference is that those of us who oppose torture are therefore weak.
No, the implicent inference is that people are jumping to MAJOR CONCLUSIONS about whether or not ‘we’ have tortured anyone.
3. A “powerful man” in comparison would shed no tear for Johnni Jihadi. In fact, he’d show him what a macho bad-ass he is by torturing him.
Well, this is a side bar, but an interesting dynamic. You said yourself you have no remorse for Johnny Jihadi, in so much as killing him, but you have a real problem making him stand in one position past his comfort level. I find it a curious thought process.
4. This also, unfortunately, with Johnny Jihadi actually being a terrorist. Which he was, with a stroke of Emperor Bush’s pen. Who needs a pesky thing like evidence when we’ve got the word of a Sunni snitch that that Shiite right there is a by-Allah terrist!
Yet another monumental leap in conspiratorial thinking. Do you sincerely believe that we have gathered up a group of innocent people and tortured them all for no other explicit purpose than hearing thier moans of pain?
That’s the case you’ve made.
5. Since torture has been clearly shown not to work, and in fact produces a lower amount of actionable intelligence, there is no rational explanation for why one would continue to support it when there is not a shred of evidence to show this is true,
This one is funny too, because it seems to work for everyone else. It’s track record for existing almost anywhere in the world is a testament to it’s success. Now, don’t go spinning that into how I feel about it, I just want to dispell that rumor. Torture works VERY VERY WELL.
Probably one of the reasons we admonish the practice on our soldiers. And we are trying to raise the bar on how to behave as a ‘civilized’ (whatever that means) nation.
Strange to see the flags on the names. I’m in China arguing with someone in America over why torture is bad. I mean, China tortures people. And now, sadly, we have joined their ignoble ranks.
What a world, indeed. The fact that you can even question it is a testament that our rights are still in place.
You’ll probably get to this when you wake up so, I had another thought I wanted to bounce off of you.
The most appropriate question to ask is not where you stand on torture. It’s a baited question that can see either side at an advantage.
The question is are we at war or are we involved in a police action?
My answer:
I was a registered democrat at the age of 16. By the time I was 25 when the World Trade Center was attacked I was a full blown liberal, with Europe under my belt and another trip coming.
I conisder the nation changed on Sept. 11, 2001. Who we were, and who we are as a nation has been permanently altered on that day. I have had an eight year relationship with Al Quaeda and radical Islam.
During that time, I consodered everything the administration did a mistake. I disapprove of the iraq War, in premise, and I didn’t think going to Afghanistan was going to accomplish much. During those eight years though, I have witnessed a pattern of behavior form Al Quaeda that I am thoroughly convinced of.
I am convinced that Radical Islam (with Al quaeda militants) will stop at nothing short of planting an Islamic flag on the White House lawn. I think they have made thier intentions apparent to us, and we have no one to blame but ourselves for losing to them, and I take them seriously. Eight years later they are still actively fighting the Usa, the west, and moderate Islamists the world over.
They have severed our ties with nations, severed our ties with each other, and actively used the media as a strategic weapon against us. They also have treated us like an enemy at war, with conditions for surrender and conditions for peace.
they are not fucking around, and they have my complete fucking attention until they are no longer fighting me. When I am attacked you have earned my attention, and I don’t like to lose.
I believe we are in a war, and we have an enemy that deserves our respect. Not friend respect, but respect in the sense that they will take any horrific means possible to win. And THEY (not us) are NOT FUCKING AROUND.
We can realize this and fight them, or we can allow them to win. I don’t want to be a Muslim, so as evil as some of the means need to be to defeat them, (very carefully) as a STRATEGY we should not spell out to our enemy what we MIGHT do.
Much like we have nukes but won’t really use them, we need to be grownups and allow the idea of fear as a detterent.
I don’t condone torture, and I don’t like war, but much like a martial art violence on our part has been reactionary , for the most part.
Like my grandfather has always said about this from his Viet Nam days. If it’s a war, then let us win. It’s all that your armed forces ask.
“‘Cause these are people that will never, ever, ever tell you a thing. These are people who know who’s responsible for the next terrorist attack. These are hardened people that would kill you and me 30 seconds after they got out of wherever they were being held and wouldn’t blink an eyelash,” Tenet says. “You can sit there after, you can sit there five years later, and have this debate with me, all I’m asking you to do, walk a mile in my shoes when I’m dealing with these realities.”
Seeing as how neither us, nor CBS ever bothered to walk a mile in his shoes, I’ll take him at his word.
It’s a job you’d have to be crazy to sign up for these days.
I conisder the nation changed on Sept. 11, 2001. Who we were, and who we are as a nation has been permanently altered on that day. I have had an eight year relationship with Al Quaeda and radical Islam.
“Where were you when the world stopped turning? Whoa oh aahh!”
Nothing has changed except a bunch of dipshits are now in charge of usurping our rights and lame country singers can now make millions off of shitty nationalistic songs. Plus, it takes longer to get through the airport because fuckwits that previously couldn’t get on at KFC debate about who can eat the most chicken wings instead of screening passengers.
What exactly changed huh? We’re now a nation that sponsors torture? Is that what changed? Are we now the barbarians that attacked us? Woo hoo! Dang dang dong ding diddle diddle. I got mah Ford truck, gonna kill me an Aaaa-rab! Yeeee-hawwww!
Nothing has changed except a bunch of dipshits are now in charge of usurping our rights and lame country singers can now make millions off of shitty nationalistic songs.
Okkkkkay.
Plus, it takes longer to get through the airport because fuckwits that previously couldn’t get on at KFC debate about who can eat the most chicken wings instead of screening passengers.
Okkkay. Lay off the pipe. It’s rotting your brain.
What exactly changed huh? We’re now a nation that sponsors torture? Is that what changed? Are we now the barbarians that attacked us? Woo hoo! Dang dang dong ding diddle diddle. I got mah Ford truck, gonna kill me an Aaaa-rab! Yeeee-hawwww!
Did we ever sponsor torture? Did we ever advocate it?
Or did you cojure it up in your head?
Did we ever sponsor torture? Did we ever advocate it?
Silence is consent.
Cocks double barrel shotgun:
BLAM!
These events occurred on my watch. As secretary of defense, I am accountable for them. I take full responsibility. It is my obligation to evaluate what happened, to make sure those who have committed wrongdoing are brought to justice, and to make changes as needed to see that it doesn’t happen again. I feel terrible about what happened to these Iraqi detainees. They are human beings. They were in U.S. custody. Our country had an obligation to treat them right. We didn’t do that. That was wrong. To those Iraqis who were mistreated by members of U.S. armed forces, I offer my deepest apology. It was un-American. And it was inconsistent with the values of our nation.
– Donald Rumsfeld
BLAM!
Twelve soldiers have been convicted of various charges relating to the incidents, all including dereliction of duty—most receiving relatively minor sentences. Two soldiers have either been cleared of charges or have not been charged. No one has been convicted for murders of detainees.
Colonel Thomas Pappas was relieved of his command on May 13, 2005 after receiving nonjudicial punishment on May 9, 2005 for two instances of dereliction, including that of allowing dogs to be present during interrogations. He was fined $8000 under the provisions of Article 15 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (nonjudicial punishment). He also received a General Officer Memorandum of Reprimand (GOMOR) which effectively ends his military career.
Lieutenant Colonel Steven L. Jordan became the highest ranking Army officer to have charges brought against him in connection with the Abu Ghraib abuse on April 29, 2006.[35] Prior to his trial, eight of twelve charges against him were dismissed, two of the most serious after Major General George Fay admitted that he did not read Jordan his rights before interviewing him in reference to the abuses that had taken place. On August 28, 2007, Jordan was acquitted of all charges related to prisoner mistreatment and received a reprimand for disobeying an order not to discuss a 2004 investigation into the allegations.[36]
Specialist Charles Graner was found guilty on January 14, 2005 of conspiracy to maltreat detainees, failing to protect detainees from abuse, cruelty, and maltreatment, as well as charges of assault, indecency, adultery, and obstruction of justice. On January 15, 2005, he was sentenced to ten years in federal prison.[37]
Corporal Joshua Lee Betts, of the 321st Military Intelligence Battalion, Detachment 9, pled innocent on October 20, 2004 to conspiracy, dereliction of duty, maltreatment of detainees, assault, and numerous violations of Geneva Convention, and human rights violation. Cpl. Joshua Lee Betts was later cleared of all charges.
Staff Sergeant Ivan Frederick pled guilty on October 20, 2004 to conspiracy, dereliction of duty, maltreatment of detainees, assault and committing an indecent act in exchange for other charges being dropped. His abuses included making three prisoners masturbate. He also punched one prisoner so hard in the chest that he needed resuscitation. He was sentenced to eight years in prison, forfeiture of pay, a dishonorable discharge and a reduction in rank to private.[38]
Sergeant Javal Davis pled guilty February 4, 2005 to dereliction of duty, making false official statements and battery. He was sentenced to six months in prison, a reduction in rank to private, and a bad conduct discharge.
Specialist Jeremy Sivits was sentenced on May 19, 2004 by a special court-martial to the maximum one-year sentence, in addition to being discharged for bad conduct and demoted, upon his plea of guilty.[39]
Specialist Armin Cruz of the 325th Military Intelligence Battalion was sentenced on September 11, 2004 to eight months confinement, reduction in rank to private and a bad conduct discharge in exchange for his testimony against other soldiers.[40]
Specialist Sabrina Harman was sentenced on May 17, 2005 to six months in prison and a bad conduct discharge after being convicted on six of the seven counts. She had faced a maximum sentence of 5 years.[41]
Specialist Megan Ambuhl was convicted on October 30, 2004, of dereliction of duty and sentenced to reduction in rank to private and loss of a half-month’s pay.[42]
Private First Class Lynndie England was convicted on September 26, 2005, of one count of conspiracy, four counts of maltreating detainees and one count of committing an indecent act. She was acquitted on a second conspiracy count. England had faced a maximum sentence of ten years. She was sentenced on September 27, 2005, to three years confinement, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, reduction to Private (E-1) and received a dishonorable discharge.[43]
Sergeant Santos Cardona was convicted of dereliction of duty and aggravated assault, the equivalent of a felony in the U.S. civilian justice system. He served 90 days of hard labor at Ft. Bragg, North Carolina. He was transferred to a new unit and was promoted to Sergeant. He is currently assigned to the 23rd MP Company that is presently staged in Kuwait as of November 2006. He has arrived in Kuwait with his unit and has been selected to train Iraqi police.[44]
Specialist Roman Krol pled guilty on February 1, 2005 to conspiracy and maltreatment of detainees at Abu Ghraib. He was sentenced to ten months confinement, reduction in rank to private, and a bad conduct discharge.[45]
Specialist Israel Rivera, who was present during abuse on October 25, is under investigation but has not been charged and has testified against other soldiers.
Sergeant Michael Smith was found guilty on March 21, 2006 of two counts of prisoner maltreatment, one count of simple assault, one count of conspiracy to maltreat, one count of dereliction of duty and a final charge of an indecent act, and sentenced to 179 days in prison, a fine of $2,250, a demotion to private, and a bad conduct discharge.
And if you’re tin foil hat is still attached after that you can always have any other party you wish conivcted of a felony under US law for any breach of the Geneva Conventions due to War Crimes Act of 1996.
Improve your happiness and well being by being one of the many who will try and fail sueing the administration for this.
I’m sure all the Bush double-speak on torture just represents a “different point of view”.
Rumsfeld, pshah! Whatever.
Do you seriously think these guys just took it upon themselves to torture? That it had nothing to do with an environment where torture was given tacet approval by this administration? After all the bullshit we’ve been fed and the over-exaggerations?
Do you seriously think these guys just took it upon themselves to torture? That it had nothing to do with an environment where torture was given tacet approval by this administration? After all the bullshit we’ve been fed and the over-exaggerations?
I honestly don’t think you’re after anything more than advancing the number of comments, but I gave you a golden opportunity to read the Act of 1996 and point out where it was later ratified (to some poeple’s opinion) as a benefit to the Bush administration. It was in 2006, but it does now define what an lawful enemy combatant, and unlawful enemy combatant are.
If you wanted my case, I gave it to you. If you want to ignore what I gave you, because you don’t like the source. I can’t help you.
This is crap. I am completely open to the argument that a bona fide terrorist, such as the 9/11 plotters, can be given special designations, provided their not American citizens. HOWEVER, this special designation (i.e. enemy combatant) should still follow fundamental legal procedure, with as much transparency as is possible and prudent.
This is something I concur with fully.
You know, the way civilized nations act.
This however is utter bullshit in the biggest of ways. Lee, how can you put America on a pedestal when it propped up, fought with, and equipped Ngô Đình Diệm’s regime and the Shah. We installed Samoza. All of these regimes tortured and killed thousands. I really don’t know how you can classify our nation as civilized and a beacon of hope for opressed peoples.
This is crap. I am completely open to the argument that a bona fide terrorist, such as the 9/11 plotters, can be given special designations, provided their not American citizens. HOWEVER, this special designation (i.e. enemy combatant) should still follow fundamental legal procedure, with as much transparency as is possible and prudent.
This is something I concur with fully.
As do I, but where were the 9/11 terrorists on 9/10 and if you could have captured at least one of them, how would you have done it?
I am convinced that Radical Islam (with Al quaeda militants) will stop at nothing short of planting an Islamic flag on the White House lawn. I think they have made thier intentions apparent to us, and we have no one to blame but ourselves for losing to them, and I take them seriously. Eight years later they are still actively fighting the Usa, the west, and moderate Islamists the world over.
Why am I not surprised that you believe this, considering your views on the moon landing.
How do you think this invasion is going to take place? Are they going to send their tanks and fighter bombers over to the US? Do they have a stealth army we’re not aware of? How, exactly, is Islam going to take over a country full of citizen patriots armed with 300 million firearms?
You’re out of your fucking mind. Seriously, this is your paranoid delusion, you tell me exactly HOW the Islamic flag is going to fly above the White House.
These events occurred on my watch. As secretary of defense, I am accountable for them. I take full responsibility. It is my obligation to evaluate what happened, to make sure those who have committed wrongdoing are brought to justice, and to make changes as needed to see that it doesn’t happen again. I feel terrible about what happened to these Iraqi detainees. They are human beings. They were in U.S. custody. Our country had an obligation to treat them right. We didn’t do that. That was wrong. To those Iraqis who were mistreated by members of U.S. armed forces, I offer my deepest apology. It was un-American. And it was inconsistent with the values of our nation.
– Donald Rumsfeld
Wow, fascinating. He takes responsibility for it, yet oddly enough he isn’t in prison. No, the low-level grunts are doing that. Rummy will go on the lecture circuit and make $400,000 a speech for the rest of his life.
It’s incontrovertible that Rumsfeld ordered these types of activities. Read Bob Woodward’s “Plan of Attack,” or any of the other numerous books, by credible authors with impeccable sources. Torture was directly ordered by Rumsfeld, and if you think he did it on his own, without the tacit approval of the White House, you’re insane.
And if you’re tin foil hat is still attached after that you can always have any other party you wish conivcted of a felony under US law for any breach of the Geneva Conventions due to War Crimes Act of 1996.
And again, even though this has been explained to you a thousand times, the official position of the US is that the Geneva Conventions do not apply to these prisoners. By designating them “enemy combatants” instead of POWs we have placed them in a legal limbo, outside the purview of either the Geneva Conventions or US law.
And let’s not forget that one of the last things that the GOP Congress did was vote in retroactive immunity for all parties involved so that none of them—Bush, Cheney, Rummy, etc.—can ever be tried for anything. But we got those enlisted grunts, which everyone knows was the entire extent of the problem.
Why am I not surprised that you believe this, considering your views on the moon landing.
How do you think this invasion is going to take place? Are they going to send their tanks and fighter bombers over to the US? Do they have a stealth army we’re not aware of? How, exactly, is Islam going to take over a country full of citizen patriots armed with 300 million firearms?
I’m out of my mind? Well, here’s where they’ve actually attempted it.Link.
And here are their goals:
Ideology and Goals
The principal stated aims of al-Qaeda are to drive Americans and American influence out of all Muslim nations, especially Saudi Arabia; destroy Israel; and topple pro-Western dictatorships around the Middle East. Bin Laden has also said that he wishes to unite all Muslims and establish, by force if necessary, an Islamic nation adhering to the rule of the first Caliphs.According to bin Laden’s 1998 fatwa (religious decree), it is the duty of Muslims around the world to wage holy war on the U.S., American citizens, and Jews. Muslims who do not heed this call are declared apostates (people who have forsaken their faith).
Al-Qaeda’s ideology, often referred to as “jihadism,” is marked by a willingness to kill “apostate” —and Shiite—Muslims and an emphasis on jihad. Although “jihadism” is at odds with nearly all Islamic religious thought, it has its roots in the work of two modern Sunni Islamic thinkers: Mohammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab and Sayyid Qutb.
Al-Wahhab was an 18th-century reformer who claimed that Islam had been corrupted a generation or so after the death of Mohammed. He denounced any theology or customs developed after that as non-Islamic, including more than 1,000 years of religious scholarship. He and his supporters took over what is now Saudi Arabia, where Wahhabism remains the dominant school of religious thought.
Sayyid Qutb, a radical Egyptian scholar of the mid-20th century, declared Western civilization the enemy of Islam, denounced leaders of Muslim nations for not following Islam closely enough, and taught that jihad should be undertaken not just to defend Islam, but to purify it.
I’m not that crazy.
It’s incontrovertible that Rumsfeld ordered these types of activities. Read Bob Woodward’s “Plan of Attack,” or any of the other numerous books, by credible authors with impeccable sources. Torture was directly ordered by Rumsfeld, and if you think he did it on his own, without the tacit approval of the White House, you’re insane.
I will make you this promise. I will read those books, and I won’t bring it up again until I am done reading it.
And again, even though this has been explained to you a thousand times, the official position of the US is that the Geneva Conventions do not apply to these prisoners. By designating them “enemy combatants” instead of POWs we have placed them in a legal limbo, outside the purview of either the Geneva Conventions or US law.
No, again we have made them declare either ‘lawful’ or ‘unlawful’ enemy combatant status. It has been explained a thousand times, yet ratified into law only last year.
As for the assertion that BushCo. wrote themselves out of any responsibility by law, I believe if they are all guilty of something they will be brought to justice.
As do I, but where were the 9/11 terrorists on 9/10 and if you could have captured at least one of them, how would you have done it?
And what of him?
A 9/11 terrorist captured before 9/11. You asked about capturing at least one of them, and I pointed you at one.
I’m out of my mind?
Yes, batshit insane. Over this, anyway…
A 9/11 terrorist captured before 9/11. You asked about capturing at least one of them, and I pointed you at one.
So, on who’s side of the fence do you sit? He can be spun as much to my argument as he can Lee’s.
Yes, batshit insane. Over this, anyway…
I’m batshit insane for believing Al Qaeda is our enemy?
“Where were you when the world stopped turning? Whoa oh aahh!”
Nothing has changed except a bunch of dipshits are now in charge of usurping our rights and lame country singers can now make millions off of shitty nationalistic songs. Plus, it takes longer to get through the airport because fuckwits that previously couldn’t get on at KFC debate about who can eat the most chicken wings instead of screening passengers.
What exactly changed huh? We’re now a nation that sponsors torture? Is that what changed? Are we now the barbarians that attacked us? Woo hoo! Dang dang dong ding diddle diddle. I got mah Ford truck, gonna kill me an Aaaa-rab! Yeeee-hawwww!
BTW, this is the rhetoric of someone who is batshit insane.
I’m not that crazy.
Yes you are. If you think that there is any possibility of them ever achieving these goals then you are fucking nuts. Just because that is their stated intention doesn’t mean they have a chance in hell of completing it.
You’re doing exactly what they want. They cannot destroy America, ever, but they can create a situation where people like you, scared out of your wits due to skerry brown Muslim A-rab terrists, are willing to shred the reputation of this country, the principles which we claim to support, and the rights of citizens, because you actually believe that these people have any chance whatsoever of doing what they claim.
It would be like me saying “I’m going to kill the president.” Now, that may be my goal, but considering the security around the president it’s all but impossible.
(Note to the Secret Service functionary who will inevitably read this comment—I have no desire whatsoever to kill the president. It was being used as an example of something impossible to do.)
So the worst that these terrist A-rabs can do is hit us with the occasional attack and kill a few thousand of us. I’d like to see America have a little bit more of the British stoicism, but due to the paranoia of people such as yourself, the greatest threat to American liberty comes not from the terrorists but in the way people like you react to their blather and rhetoric.
Yes you are. If you think that there is any possibility of them ever achieving these goals then you are fucking nuts. Just because that is their stated intention doesn’t mean they have a chance in hell of completing it.
It is a debate. I would argue that they are invested in this process for deeper than we are, and great studies on who we are as a society, and how to beat us.
I wouldn’t call me that crazy yet. They beat the Soviets.
You’re doing exactly what they want. They cannot destroy America, ever, but they can create a situation where people like you, scared out of your wits due to skerry brown Muslim A-rab terrists, are willing to shred the reputation of this country, the principles which we claim to support, and the rights of citizens, because you actually believe that these people have any chance whatsoever of doing what they claim.
I’m a dick. I am a dick that wouldn’t ever have such disdain for my situation as to commit an act like 9/11.
I take the word ‘jihad’ deadly serious, as a person who is now maried into Islam. They are not fucking playing with you what-so-fucking ever.
To deny them credibility of intent, displays both racism and willfull ignorance.
So the worst that these terrist A-rabs can do is hit us with the occasional attack and kill a few thousand of us. I’d like to see America have a little bit more of the British stoicism, but due to the paranoia of people such as yourself, the greatest threat to American liberty comes not from the terrorists but in the way people like you react to their blather and rhetoric.
The Bristish are an interesting thing to aspire to. They have it all wrong on socialized medicine, but right on how to handle terror and Islam?
Please.
A 9/11 terrorist captured before 9/11. You asked about capturing at least one of them, and I pointed you at one.
Here’s what Manwhore doesn’t get. 9/11 was absolutely preventable. They had the goods on Zacarias Moussaoui before 9/11. The FBI agent wanted to execute a search warrant, but the FBI brass said no. After 9/11, when he was searched, they found a pirate’s bounty of information. Much of it was evidence of easily traceable payments to the other 9/11 hijackers.
So the issue wasn’t lack of information, it was government incompetence. And if the problem back then wasn’t lack of information, then it sure as hell doesn’t justify all the expansive and immoral actions our government, actions which you are totally cool with because they are the only thing standing between us and an Islamic flag on the White House.
Here’s what Manwhore doesn’t get. 9/11 was absolutely preventable. They had the goods on Zacarias Moussaoui before 9/11. The FBI agent wanted to execute a search warrant, but the FBI brass said no. After 9/11, when he was searched, they found a pirate’s bounty of information. Much of it was evidence of easily traceable payments to the other 9/11 hijackers.
You underestimate the intent.
On August 16, 2001, Moussaoui was arrested by Harry Samit of the FBI and INS agents in Minnesota and charged with an immigration violation[15]. Materials itemised when he was arrested included a laptop computer, two knives, 747 flight manuals, a flight simulator computer program, fighting gloves and shin guards, and a computer disk with information about crop dusting[15].
Some agents worried that his flight training had violent intentions, so the Minnesota bureau tried to get permission (sending over 70 emails in a week) to search his laptop, but they were turned down.[16] FBI agent Coleen Rowley made an explicit request for permission to search Moussaoui’s personal rooms. This request was first denied by her superior, Deputy General Counsel Marion “Spike” Bowman, and later rejected based upon FISA regulations (amended after 9/11 by the USA Patriot Act). Several further search attempts similarly failed.
FBI watchdog Sen. Chuck Grassley, Republican-Iowa, later wrote to FBI Director Robert Mueller:
If the application for the FISA warrant had gone forward, agents would have found information in Moussaoui’s belongings that linked him both to a major financier of the hijacking plot working out of Germany, and to a Malaysian al-Qaida boss who had met with at least two other hijackers while under surveillance by intelligence officials.
Oops. and:
Osama Bin Laden response
On May 23, 2006, an audio recording attributed to Osama Bin Laden said in translation that Moussaoui “had no connection at all with September 11… I am the one in charge of the 19 brothers and I never assigned brother Zacarias to be with them in that mission… Since Zacarias Moussaoui was still learning to fly, he wasn’t number 20 in the group, as your government claimed”. The voice alleged to be Bin Laden also suggested that Moussaoui’s confession was “void” as it was a result of pressures applied during his incarceration.[46][47]
No real argument in your favour of police only action. Next, we can talk his behaviour in the trial.
You underestimate the intent.
I’ve never said that FISA didn’t need to be amended. Now you’re talking out your ass. The subject has switched from the use of torture (which you enthusiastically support) to your paranoid belief that al-Qaeda could ever actually take over the US, to FISA reform somehow justifying torture.
No real argument in your favour of police only action. Next, we can talk his behaviour in the trial.
Well, if you’re naive enough to believe this horseshit, then I guess you’re naive enough to believe the moon landing was faked.
Do you think for a second than Bin Laden is unaware that every word he speaks will be intercepted somewhere? So he says something like this, and gullible saps like you lap it up.
I say torture doesn’t work, and provide years of solid evidence in favor of my view. You believe in torture, but can’t provide a single shred of evidence that it works. That doesn’t matter, because for you it’s all about making A-rabs scream in pain. And now, the pièce de résistance, you justify all this by quoting Osama bin Laden.
You’ve still never answered my question. (Oddly, this is exactly what you did in the moon landing thread when we all handed your ass to you.) You’re paranoid that the skerry brown terrists want to take over America. You obviously believe this is possible. Can you give me details of a scenario where this could happen? Use your imagination, tell me how they would ever succeed at this.
Either provide a practical potential scenario, or admit that you’re scared about nothing.
The Bristish are an interesting thing to aspire to. They have it all wrong on socialized medicine, but right on how to handle terror and Islam?
Please.
This is like saying, “Hitler was right about freeways but wrong about Jews? Please.”
When the 7/7 attacks happened in London, do you know what the Brits did on 7/8? They got back on the buses and trains and went to work, saying “We are not intimidated.”
Now compare this to you, an otherwise intelligent guy who actually believes that terrorists taking over America is a very real possibility. Because of this paranoia you are willing to enthusiastically support torture and other nefarious activities.
Terrorists will NEVER destroy America. The only people who can destroy America are paranoid Americans who, out of a sense of fear and a need for safety, are willing to sell out our core principles. To borrow the line from Vietnam, “We had to destroy the village in order to save it.” And that same tortured logic, Manwhore, is what you are doing now, destroying the country in order to save it.
I’ve never said that FISA didn’t need to be amended. Now you’re talking out your ass. The subject has switched from the use of torture (which you enthusiastically support) to your paranoid belief that al-Qaeda could ever actually take over the US, to FISA reform somehow justifying torture.
Wow! Point me to that one, my friend!
Well, if you’re naive enough to believe this horseshit, then I guess you’re naive enough to believe the moon landing was faked.
Do you think for a second than Bin Laden is unaware that every word he speaks will be intercepted somewhere? So he says something like this, and gullible saps like you lap it up.
No, I think he is well aware that what he says will be made public. So when he makes himself known, he intends it to be known.
It goes back to the blurb I wrote about actively using the media as a weapon.
I say torture doesn’t work, and provide years of solid evidence in favor of my view. You believe in torture, but can’t provide a single shred of evidence that it works. That doesn’t matter, because for you it’s all about making A-rabs scream in pain. And now, the pièce de résistance, you justify all this by quoting Osama bin Laden.
I do not believe in or condone torture. I have told you repeatedly that I am married into Islam and have A-rabs for relatives.
The fact that you ignore these repeated claims is nothing short of shocking.
You’ve still never answered my question. (Oddly, this is exactly what you did in the moon landing thread when we all handed your ass to you.) You’re paranoid that the skerry brown terrists want to take over America. You obviously believe this is possible. Can you give me details of a scenario where this could happen? Use your imagination, tell me how they would ever succeed at this.
No, I gave you 9/11 in my defense and you ignored it. That was Al Qaeda’s attempt at....what?
When the 7/7 attacks happened in London, do you know what the Brits did on 7/8? They got back on the buses and trains and went to work, saying “We are not intimidated.”
As opposed to us eeegnorant un cowardly Amurukuns who got all uppity on 9/12?
Now compare this to you, an otherwise intelligent guy who actually believes that terrorists taking over America is a very real possibility. Because of this paranoia you are willing to enthusiastically support torture and other nefarious activities.
You keep trying to sneak this in, and you’re even poisoning the dessert to do so. I do not condone torture. I do not condone torture. I do not condone torure.
I am also, not a paranoid individual. Al qaeda is our enemy. To deny them credibility is disingenuous.
Wow! Point me to that one, my friend!
Wasn’t it you who wrote a post a couple of weeks ago essentially calling anyone who disagreed with torture a weak pussy who “weeps” for the enemy?
No, I gave you 9/11 in my defense and you ignored it. That was Al Qaeda’s attempt at....what?
Instilling fear in the heats of people like you, so that you’ll do exactly what you’re doing it now.
As opposed to us eeegnorant un cowardly Amurukuns who got all uppity on 9/12?
No, you’re acting ignorant and cowardly, and it’s seven years down the road. There hasn’t been another terrorist attack, or even a bona fide attempt. (And if you think this is due to Bush administration and vigilance you’re even more gullible and paranoid than you appear.)
I am also, not a paranoid individual. Al qaeda is our enemy. To deny them credibility is disingenuous.
I notice you’re still dodging my question. Come on, Manwhore, you can do better than this. Don’t pussy out on me, answer the question. You said it, now back it up, or admit you’re full of shit.
You keep trying to sneak this in, and you’re even poisoning the dessert to do so. I do not condone torture. I do not condone torture. I do not condone torure.
Waterboarding is torture. You can look it up and everything.
Wasn’t it you who wrote a post a couple of weeks ago essentially calling anyone who disagreed with torture a weak pussy who “weeps” for the enemy?
No, the conversation is about having compassion for an enemy.
Instilling fear in the heats of people like you, so that you’ll do exactly what you’re doing it now.
I am not afraid of Al Quaeda and I am NOt afraid of Islam. you are confused over two distinct emotions. Respect and fear. I am acknowledging the enemy, and it was my original assertion that you do not. you continue to ‘do not’.
It is why an argument like this is moot. You do not believe Al Qaeda is an enemy. It is your choice to make.
Now, unless you think 9/11 was an inside job, then pardon me for taking notice their second attempt at taking us down.
thier continued presence in Iraq is another instance where they are intentioned and willfull about sticking to thier intended ideology.
No, you’re acting ignorant and cowardly, and it’s seven years down the road. There hasn’t been another terrorist attack, or even a bona fide attempt. (And if you think this is due to Bush administration and vigilance you’re even more gullible and paranoid than you appear.)
well, you’ve already headed me off at the pass, so not much more to talk about here.
I will continue to tell you that I am not a coward, either. This very debate is a testament to my courage. Here, I am having a debate with someone I both repsect and consider a vociferous foe when in the mood.
Now, I am telling you after seven years of evidence that Al quaeda is an enemy and there is mountains of proof that they mean us harm.
what to do with them is a debate, but who they are and the fact that they hate us and are violent in undeniable.
I notice you’re still dodging my question. Come on, Manwhore, you can do better than this. Don’t pussy out on me, answer the question. You said it, now back it up, or admit you’re full of shit.
answer which qustion? you’ve spread the argument to accusing me of being an enthusiastic supporter of terror, to being a coward, to being a fool for believe that islamic terror is real and Al qaeda’s intention to destroy us is false.
For a person chiding conspiracy, you seem to have signed on to tplenty of it yourself.
Manwhore, you miss the point.
The point is - if we change who we are, what we do, how we act, how we treat others, etc, because of AQ or any other nutjobs, then we are empowering them and letting them win. This is what we must not do, and why we Libertarians object to so much of what’s going on.
My wife and I were scheduled to go on a cruise from Honolulu to Mexico leaving the 1st week of October, 2001. Our friends & coworkers could not believe we were going. Our position was “screw them; if we change our plans because of them, they won”. At the time, everyone was terrified of terror attacks on cruise ships (it took like 3 hours to get on the ship; they inspected every single bag by hand, because they weren’t prepared to scan stuff).
Maybe it comes from me growing up with Israeli friends & neighbors, and relatives living in Israel. You wanna see a country that says “screw you, we’re moving on with our lives” to terrorist, go to Israel. But my wife didn’t experience any of that, and she was right there with me saying “fuck them”.
It’s what makes statements like:
I conisder the nation changed on Sept. 11, 2001. Who we were, and who we are as a nation has been permanently altered on that day.
from otherwise intelligent people so disturbing. Such a position statement is a tacit acknowledgement that they won the battle (if not the war). We won’t concede that point.
Dwex, I still have plenty more opinions on the topic, and throwing the Israeli solution to terrorism is quite another debate entirely.
I promised Lee a hudna until I read the book he has asked me too.
If you are defining victory to the terrorists by:
if we change who we are, what we do, how we act, how we treat others, etc, because of AQ or any other nutjobs, then we are empowering them and letting them win.
then we might as well just capitulate now because they won. The very fact that we now have Homeland Security, have FISA, have long lines at airports is evidence that we have changed how we act (as any prudent person would) but if you define this change as victory for the terorists then I would disagree.
Last summer while on vaction in London we noticed that in all the train and metro stations there are no garbage cans. I asked the locals about this and was told that all trash recipticals were removed so that bombs could not be placed in them, these are those stoic Brits that Lee brings up, I guess by your definition the terrorists won because they managed to get the Brits to change their behavior.
I bring this up because the “libertarian” solution of do nothing otherwise they win is just as myopic as going commando and locking up all the Arabs.
The price we pay for saying “screw them” and continuing with our business and our vacations is being a little more vigilant in protecting our asses.
If all we were doing was being “a little more vigilant”, I wouldn’t have any issues. We’re being anal-retentive and running around like scared kitty cats. In this context, yeah, we’re losing.
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How quickly they soured us on their ideology, huh?
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Mark_M: The average American is so fucking stupid I don’t give us much hope. I'll paraphrase a great line from Dennis Miller ..."The American people are so stupid...of course, I know better than them. But then again I DO have a bachelor's in communications from Tallahassee Junior College."
Tonight's speech by Obama on Iraq...
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Manwhore: It is striking to me that Alex is now the only real voice of conservative thinking on this blog. For the few who rebel against the idea are hit in the face with a Limbaugh smear. I think it was fucking hilarious that he handed all of you your asses;…
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Dick Fitzwell: A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always count on the support of Paul--George Bernard Shaw Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.--Mark Twain A major source of objection to a…
How quickly they soured us on their ideology, huh?
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Seattle Outcast: Get that sand washed out yet muirgeo1?
The Discovery Gunman
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Seattle Outcast: Considering that this is exactly what I hear from your typical garden-variety libtard, I'm keeping my guard up around them in case they snap.
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Because he had a Ron Paul blimp next to him, and explained he was doing all of this to save the constitution. ;)
Whoever said he...was..........alone?
gripe, GRIPE!! The first rule about Fight Club is....