4th Of July Weekend Music And America Appreciation Thread
This is the Fourth of July weekend music thread. Feel free to post patriotic or whatever music you want, and add why you think America is the greatest country on Earth. For me, it’s the fact that a black man can run for President, we have an amazing system of checks and balances that has caused us to avoid the fate of dictatorship that most countries that have had revolutions have gone through, and our society is truly rich and diverse in race, religion, and points of view. Happy Fourth, and Spaghetti Monster Bless America! : )
Comments
just for the record:
i have not blown off any ingers or apendiges,,
and i am drunkersr than fucks,
It’s a good thing I am creative. I might have been offended this is a repackaged DJ thread. I have only to say this is the worst thread ever. I have never seen this country mocked in such fashion.
For me, it’s the fact that a black man can run for President,
I guess this must rule out the continent of Africa. Shocker. Pathetic, that Obama will not even touch his supporters stances. Kennedy would be unproud.
we have an amazing system of checks and balances that has caused us to avoid the fate of dictatorship that most countries that have had revolutions have gone through
Bush is not King George the third, and Rummy is not Cornwallace? hard to understand a guy who supports the idea the constitution is a living document. In that environment “all men are created equal” should also be open for debate. Let’s skip the second ammendment.
and our society is truly rich and diverse in race, religion, and points of view.
Like the support of a spaghetti monster. Bless america.
Happy Fourth, and Spaghetti Monster Bless America! : )
Gee whiz. thanks a pantload, Chet. George Washington could spin enough in his grave to run a city.
Happy fourth.
I’m being patriotic!
Cox & Combes - Washington
I couldn’t resist.
I have only to say this is the worst thread ever. I have never seen this country mocked in such fashion.
Holy pathetic hyperbole, Batman!
OK, maybe I should have said “For me, it’s the fact that I live in a time when a black man can run for President.”
As for the rest...lighten up, Frances Manwhore.
More music:
From one of the best musicals ever.
The Dirt Band-American Dream
OK, maybe I should have said “For me, it’s the fact that I live in a time when a black man can run for President.”
All the great things this country has done and has stood for and all you can come up with is this? Nothing about liberty or freedom, nothing about certain rights endowed by our creator that no other country has bothered to articulate or demand, nothing about our benelovence, our sense of fair play or justice, nothing about the hard work and money involved in spreading democracy (so that other peoples can participate and be represented in government decisions) to other countries, nothing about the charity or aid that we have despensed to millions over the years, nothing about our entrepreneurial spirit, our rugid individualism and innovation that helped create this country, nothing about creating a nation under the basic tenet that all men are created equal (yeah, yeah, we have fallen down many times on its adherance, who hasn’t?)and yet the best you can come up with is ,"ain’t it great that a half black man can run for President?”
I think this was the sentiment that Manwhore was trying to express.
It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance by solemn Acts of Devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with Pomp and Parade, with Shews, Games, Sports, Guns, Bells, Bonfires and Illuminations from one End of this Continent to the other from this Time forward forever more.
John Adams - July 2, 1776
Haha. Mr. Adams was such a dick!
Songs about the fifty states (the ones I could find, anyway):
Louis Armstrong & Ella Fitzgerald-Stars Fell On Alabama
Johnny Horton-North To Alaska
Wilco-Hotel Arizona
Dead Meadow-Rocky Mountain High
Ray Charles-Georgia On My Mind
Built To Spill-Twin Falls
The Get Up Kids-Campfire Kansas
Deep Purple-Kentucky Woman
Charley Pride-Louisiana Man
Mountain-Mississippi Queen
Tom Waits-Jersey Girl
Ryan Adams-New York New York
Lyle Lovett-North Dakota
Modest Mouse-Ohio
Brian Setzer-Pennsylvania 6-5000
James Taylor-Carolina On My Mind
Arrested Development-Tennessee
Bob Dylan & Johnny Cash-Blue Yodel T For Texas
Band Of Horses-Great Salt Lake (fixed)
FINALE
Jimi Hendrix-Star Spangled Banner
nothing about the hard work and money involved in spreading democracy (so that other peoples can participate and be represented in government decisions) to other countries
Before I cam to China I would have wholeheartedly agreed with this statement. However, I now have come to realize the folly of even attempting this in areas of the world which have never had any sort of democratic tradition. China is a perfect example of this. They had emperors for five thousand years, give or take, then in 1911 Sun Yat Sen overthrew the emperor, which resulted in the installation of the Kuomintang (nationalist Party). They stayed in power until the revolution in 1949, when Mao beat their ass in the civil war and drove them in retreat to Taiwan, where the KMT was in power until just a few years ago.
There is NO tradition of democracy in Chinese culture. Fealty to one strongman or another is in the cultural blood, be it an emperor or a dictator. Many Chinese look at the west and say, “Look at the election fiasco in 2000. We never have anything like that here. And we don’t have government gridlock, if our government wants something done is gets done. And we don’t have the lawlessness or promiscuity or general insecurity which comes from democracy. Besides, in a democracy you don’t get to choose who leads you, you get to choose from a pool of three or four people who may lead you, and out of those you get to choose one of two main parties. So, really, how is this substantively different that that what we have here? Our government has done amazing things over the past 20 years to improve our lives, why should I rock the boat with the uncertainty of democracy?”
You might not understand that mindset, but now that I’ve been here and experienced it for nine months I’m starting to get a handle on it. And I think that Arabic society, while totally different on the surface, has the same underling leader-worship mentality. They want a strong-but-benevolent strongman who can make decisions on their behalf and make their lives better.
Remember, the Iraqis used to complain about life under Saddam, not life without democracy. I think that, other than the outspoken radicals, the vast majority of Iraqis would much rather have a benevolent strongman in place who could use his power to restore order by force.
Think of Iran. Yeah, the shah was a bad guy in many respects, but he was a hell of a lot better than the mullahs who replaced him.
So I think that, in just nine months, I have come to see the inherent folly in “imposing democracy by force.” The west had to go from the Divine Right of Kings to the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution, and that took almost a thousand years. The desire for democracy has to be fostered from within. In other words, if the Iraqi people were clamoring for democracy that would be one thing, but they weren’t, they were saying “Saddam is evil.” In other words, “Get rid of Saddam” and put in someone better in his place.
The Iraqi talking head won’t admit this, of course, jut like Chinese human rights people in the west talk about the unquenchable thirst that he Chinese people have for democracy. I’m telling you, in the nine months I’ve been here I haven’t seen one indication anywhere that the Chinese are interested in democracy or voting, they just want a strong government which can meet their needs and make them a strong player on the world stage. The CCP is currently addressing these needs as best they can, so why should the average Chinese want to roll the dice on something that they believe is antithetical to their best interests?
Look at the Arab world. “In American women dress like whores, their men cannot control them and are weak, and their children do not respect them. They put up with all sorts of abominations—homosexuals can marry in many states? Not to mention their alcohol consumption and their gluttony. This is democracy? No thank you.”
It’s an authoritarian mindset, and those minds have to be changed internally, not at the barrel of a gun.
I’m not saying that trying to spread democracy isn’t worthwhile goal, of course it is. But it’s something which needs to be done with rhetoric and example, rather than “Okay, we killed Saddam. Now you get to vote.”
There’s a reason why Stalin is shown, in poll after poll, to be Russia’s most admired leader. China is the same, and so is the Middle East.
So yes, it’s worthwhile goal, but I think the way we went about it was, shall we say, misguided to put it nicely.
Before I cam to China I would have wholeheartedly agreed with this statement. However, I now have come to realize the folly of even attempting this in areas of the world which have never had any sort of democratic tradition.
I guess I’m not talking about nation building but assisting the peoples of other nations that have shown a desire for throwing off the shackles of tyrany, these are two differnt things. There are statues in Poland and public squares in Afghanistan dedicated to Ronald Reagan for his help in their quest for democarcy. If you look at countries in our own hemisphere (central America) and various nations in Africa and Eastern Europe, the desire was already present, we did not install the notion but we did facilitate it coming to fruition.
There is NO tradition of democracy in Chinese culture.
And before our revolution where was there any “tradition of democracy” anywhere else? Our DOI enumerates certain rights which are not granted by governments or tyrants but by God (or nature if you are so disposed), our founders did not invent these rights, they identified them as always present and available to everyone, everywhere. When you look at the end of the cold war and the fall of communism through out most of the world, most of these ex communist countries did not adopt feudalism or install a dictator to rule over them, they chose governments which would respect and honor their civil liberties. They had had enough of a system that produces at best mediocraty (we pretend to work and they pretend to pay us).
And we don’t have the lawlessness or promiscuity or general insecurity which comes from democracy.
No, you have a system where political prisoners just disappear, where people are thrown into prison for practicing their religious faith, and peole that do not toe the line or dare to think for themselves are made an example of.
You might not understand that mindset, but now that I’ve been here and experienced it for nine months I’m starting to get a handle on it.
I do understand it. You have told me before that your average Chinese worker is much better off now, can afford even some meager luxuries, and need not make fighting starvation an all consumming goal, I get it, they are happy for the improvements in their lives. But once they don’t have to worry about where their next meal is coming from, then they might decide that their government is holding them back from further advances, they can see how the rest of the world lives, how in most places people are not imprisoned for their thoughts and can elevate their lives based on thier abilities.
. I think that, other than the outspoken radicals, the vast majority of Iraqis would much rather have a benevolent strongman in place who could use his power to restore order by force.
Some might feel this way because the in place system can not at present protect them, this is changing and when the Iraqi’s do not have to fear for their safety (like the Chinaman who does not have to worry about his next meal) then they can go about their business.
I have come to see the inherent folly in “imposing democracy by force.”
Yep, bad idea all the way around.
Look at the Arab world. “In American women dress like whores, their men cannot control them and are weak, and their children do not respect them. They put up with all sorts of abominations—homosexuals can marry in many states? Not to mention their alcohol consumption and their gluttony. This is democracy? No thank you.”
Maybe the radical clerics think this way but not your average citizen. They look at America and see cell phones, movies, pizza, dating who you want, being able to say what you want, choice in everything, and mostly wealth and all that that intails.
Before I cam to China I would have wholeheartedly agreed with this statement. However, I now have come to realize the folly of even attempting this in areas of the world which have never had any sort of democratic tradition. China is a perfect example of this. They had emperors for five thousand years, give or take, then in 1911 Sun Yat Sen overthrew the emperor, which resulted in the installation of the Kuomintang (nationalist Party). They stayed in power until the revolution in 1949, when Mao beat their ass in the civil war and drove them in retreat to Taiwan, where the KMT was in power until just a few years ago.
The beauty of this is that we didn’t need to lift a finger to move them in our direction. We simply opened commerce with them and let society do the rest. In my (now twice travelled to HK and ShenZen) I don’t think our influence can be denied there. China is not imperial, or communist, but free market. They have an agreement with the government that to save face, they will remain communist. The government has publicly condoned to the people of China that in order for the notion to advance some individuals need to be allowed to be richer than others. This was a public admission that they are not communist china anymore. Authoritarian is a good word, and you were spot on for using it.
It would be impossible for this China to exist without us. the government of China would be foolsih to let the story of America remain unanswered. This is the reason why they have made this shift. They have thier version of it, but the idea is there, and it is something that works for them. I don’t think anyone here would say that communist china represents the communism of Russia or Viet Nam.
You might not understand that mindset, but now that I’ve been here and experienced it for nine months I’m starting to get a handle on it. And I think that Arabic society, while totally different on the surface, has the same underling leader-worship mentality. They want a strong-but-benevolent strongman who can make decisions on their behalf and make their lives better.
East/West differences transcend nine months, and it is commonly known through history that we learn from the differences in each other. The two are indepent thought processes that somethimes arrive at the same conclusion, and sometimes don’t. China is opening up to the west, similar to the way the Japanese did a century ago. since Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, and any other ME country broght forward can support this does place them in the Asias, much like the English thought of them for centuries. Europe made her own path and Americnas are descendants of that process.
Do the middle eastern people adhere to Asian philosophy? Probably. Are they beyond the concept of American ideals and democracy? Unlikely. Your model of behavior only has credence if the immigrants who come here from those nations reject our ideals.
So I think that, in just nine months, I have come to see the inherent folly in “imposing democracy by force.” The west had to go from the Divine Right of Kings to the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution, and that took almost a thousand years. The desire for democracy has to be fostered from within. In other words, if the Iraqi people were clamoring for democracy that would be one thing, but they weren’t, they were saying “Saddam is evil.” In other words, “Get rid of Saddam” and put in someone better in his place.
This is largely taken out of context. The middle east has a history of strong men dictatorships that go as far back to thier prophet. However your assertion throws the baby out with the bathwater. It would be more compelling to latch onto the areas in which America and the ME chime. That would be in commerce. A quick study of the Ottomans, would find that cooperation with an occupying power is not beyond them, and a secular governing force is not out of thier comprehension. Islam is a powerful religion and way of life, yes, but it is misunderstood in this regard. There are ways, in it, for us all to see eye to eye. It has the capacity to explain how best to join the modern world. Harems are part of ME culture. Sharia can be very progressive. It is the prevelence of Wahibbi Islam that has dragged the Muslim world back a few steps.
Democracy at the end of a gun? I dunno, that is better left to the Russians, and not what our attempt with the country has been at all. BTW, it is not the people of iraq we find the most resistance with, it is al Quaeda, hardliners, and iran, at this point. They all know people will abandon thier ideas in droves if there were a safe vehicle to do so.
Look at the Arab world. “In American women dress like whores, their men cannot control them and are weak, and their children do not respect them. They put up with all sorts of abominations—homosexuals can marry in many states? Not to mention their alcohol consumption and their gluttony. This is democracy? No thank you.”
Is this the view of Middle Eastern people? Do you say this with authority?
There’s a reason why Stalin is shown, in poll after poll, to be Russia’s most admired leader. China is the same, and so is the Middle East.
Not really. this is a pretty small minded look at the demographic. You omit Russia’s influence, the history, and why peoples of the region made the decisions they did. For example, Armenians opted to join the Russian Empire. They did so to escape religious persecution, not because they favor strongmen and oppose democracy. Quite the opposite. They are more freindly to anything in the west than any other neighbor.
the ME could have opted to be a part of the Russians, but did not. They wanted a solution that integrated their religion’s role in society. Lumping this part of the world together, is a gross overstatement.
There are statues in Poland and public squares in Afghanistan dedicated to Ronald Reagan for his help in their quest for democarcy.
No, they are there for his stand against their occupation by the Soviet Union. The fact that they became a democracy is secondary, they could have chosen any number of different paths to take once the Russians pulled out, and Reagan would still be remembered as a hero.
And before our revolution where was there any “tradition of democracy” anywhere else?
Nowhere, and that’s exactly my point. When the American colonials decided “Hey, enough with this shit,” they went to war against the world’s mightiest army and won their freedoms. They weren’t given their freedoms, no foreign government came in occupied the colonies, and created a government for them.
My point is that I have come to believe that societies which are not democratic are largely so for a reason. And just because they may be under the thumb of some evil bastard dictator (i.e. Iraq) and would like to see that evil bastard removed (i.e. Saddam) does NOT inherently mean that they want to live under a Jeffersonian democracy like ours.
I think authoritarianism is a fundamental part of various cultures. It was a part of western culture until the enlightenment. Until other nations undergo this type of cultural change *on their own* then they will never be able to appreciate what they have been given. You always respect more what you earned than what you were given, especially if what you are given is not what you what in the first place.
No, you have a system where political prisoners just disappear, where people are thrown into prison for practicing their religious faith, and peole that do not toe the line or dare to think for themselves are made an example of.
Right, and to you and I this is a bad thing. Many Chinese view this as a necessary function of government, to deal with agitators and lawbreakers and “terrorists” who would otherwise try and undermine Chinese society.
Some might feel this way because the in place system can not at present protect them, this is changing and when the Iraqi’s do not have to fear for their safety (like the Chinaman who does not have to worry about his next meal) then they can go about their business.
Well, let’s wait 50 years and see how well Iraq’s democracy experiment turns out. I’ll bet that they’re living under some kind of strongman.
Maybe the radical clerics think this way but not your average citizen. They look at America and see cell phones, movies, pizza, dating who you want, being able to say what you want, choice in everything, and mostly wealth and all that that intails.
And not all of them think it’s a good thing. I see exactly the same shit in China every day. Yes, they love our movies and iPods and clothes and such, but they have a deep-seated nationalistic desire to maintain their Chinese identity. They want to have the best the western world has to offer without fundamentally disrupting their Chinese culture.
The beauty of this is that we didn’t need to lift a finger to move them in our direction. We simply opened commerce with them and let society do the rest
Of course. Which is why I favor lifting the embargo on Cuba, and I think Obama’s pledge to meet with the leaders of Iran and North Korea is a far better tactic than the Cheney “Let’s blow ‘em the fuck up!” technique. I’m not against using military force by any means, but I think the idea of using it to implement a sea change in policy is ridiculous.
East/West differences transcend nine months, and it is commonly known through history that we learn from the differences in each other. The two are indepent thought processes that somethimes arrive at the same conclusion, and sometimes don’t. China is opening up to the west, similar to the way the Japanese did a century ago. since Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, and any other ME country broght forward can support this does place them in the Asias, much like the English thought of them for centuries. Europe made her own path and Americnas are descendants of that process.
I’ve read this paragraph about six times and have no idea what you’re trying to say.
Do the middle eastern people adhere to Asian philosophy? Probably. Are they beyond the concept of American ideals and democracy? Unlikely. Your model of behavior only has credence if the immigrants who come here from those nations reject our ideals.
Huh??? You’re not making any sense here. The people who come to the US to live do so PRECISELY BECAUSE they understand and want to be a part of our society and all it offers. But this doesn’t change the fact that the majority of them are more or less fine with the way they are. If anything your example proves the point I’m trying to make, that people who want to be free bad enough will usually figure out some way to do it.
It would be more compelling to latch onto the areas in which America and the ME chime. That would be in commerce.
Which is the point I’m making. Somehow you’re taking what I’ve written, then making the exact same point to somehow disprove what I wrote.
Is this the view of Middle Eastern people? Do you say this with authority?
With as much authority as you speak about anything else, sure.
Not really. this is a pretty small minded look at the demographic. You omit Russia’s influence, the history, and why peoples of the region made the decisions they did
You’re right. Listening to Russian after Russian in Russian clubs hoisting toasts to Stalin, then having them tell me that Stalin was great because he made Russia strong, makes me “small minded.”
Make a better argument, Manwhore, then come see me again. Next time, try and make sense.
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Just to get things started:
James Brown-Living In America
Neil Diamond-America
Simon & Garfunkel-America
Lee Greenwood-God Bless The U.S.A.