The Election Post-Mortem and the Breaking of the Keyboard

I just posted this over on my own site. I have a few more posts to push out but I think I’m going to take a break for a while, probably until I put up my Thanksgiving post. This election has simply exhausted me. I have been doing this now for 12 years, nine at this site. And with the GOP descending into a populist chaos, I’m not sure how to go from here. We know that Right-Thinking will close at some point — the boost of funding helped Jim keep it going through the election. But we can’t go on much further.

Last night, I thought I was done with political blogging for good. This morning, though, after a walk and some thought, I’m not so sure. I am currently entertaining the idea of letting Right-Thinking close but starting up a new WordPress blog from the ashes. The blog would be open to posts from, basically, anyone who reads it but I would have editorial control. Another alternative is to just retreat to my long-neglected personal site. There, too, guests posts would be welcome.

But, as I said, I need to take a break from all this and think. Feel free to comment, especially if you happen to be Jim.

I have many scattered thoughts on last night’s tumultuous election. Apologies if this is a bit incoherent. I didn’t get a lot of sleep.

I will not back down from my assessment of Trump as terrible candidate and poor human being. Now that he’s elected, I’m willing to give him a chance but I strongly suspect this will end poorly. But before we pull the plug on the American experiment, let’s consider a few points:

  • Elections are not really about “movements” and rarely about history. They are about candidates and parties. Trump will be the winner, but he will likely end up with fewer votes than McCain or Romney did when they lost. So the idea that he is bringing in new “Trump Republicans” or riding some wave of racial resentment is a bit much. The key difference here was that the Democrat turnout was terrible. Clinton drew ten million fewer votes than Obama did in 2008, six million fewer than in 2012. She lost this in the rust belt, not in the South. Clinton’s electoral history now includes winning a gifted Senate seat by 10 points in a state Gore won by 25, losing a gifted Presidential nomination to a half-term Senator with a funny name and almost losing a second to a 73-year-old socialist. Trump was a bad candidate, but Clinton was just as bad. The Democratic turnout tells you that. And the refusal of Democrats to understand this is a big reason they are full of despair today.
  • This was a cry against the establishment and, for all her pretenses, Clinton was absolutely the establishment: in Washington for 25 years, in politics for 40, feted by Wall Street interests, supported by the media and the political experts, extremely wealthy, a supporter of every war since Vietnam and advocating traditional Washington policies (such as a no-fly zone in Syria of all places). You can claim it’s sexism but remember: Jeb Bush lost for the same reasons. With all the establishment at his back and all the money in the world, he was even more soundly thrashed. Because as it turns out, Americans aren’t that fond of political dynasties. I believe that America is perfectly willing to elect a woman. They just weren’t interested in electing this woman.
  • I have no idea how Trump will govern and, frankly, neither does he. The best case scenario is that he’s a figurehead and Pence/Ryan really run the country. The worst case is that he’s serious about ending free trade, abandoning our alliances and making global warming worse. The early tell will be his cabinet appointments. If it’s a bunch of Trump sycophants (and early indications are that it will be), this could be a long four years. While I’m willing to give him a chance, I am very pessimistic and the danger of a real calamity — a World War or a Depression (or both) — is very real. For the first time in my life, I wonder if my kids will have it better than I did.
  • I know a lot of Democrats are depressed right now. And a lot of minorities are outright scared. I guess it’s easy to just write off half the nation as evil racist sexist monsters. But that would be a mistake. The same country that just elected Trump elected Obama. Twice. Instead of retreating even further into epistemic closure, find out why people really voted for Trump. It wasn’t because they hate black people. And it wasn’t because they hate women. Don’t close off. Don’t isolate. Don’t cut off your family members or friends who voted against you. Argue. Persuade.
  • You think Trump voters can’t be reasoned with? Garbage. Much of the Republican base has moved left on gay marriage and marijuana in just the last decade. Trump openly supported gays during the primary. Some of the loudest voices against mass incarceration are on the Right (although Trump may silence them for the time being). A lot of eyes have been opened to racism and sexism in our society, particularly in the last year or two. Trust me. I spend a lot of time on conservative blogs. Your voices are being heard and making a difference. It’s just an awfully awfully big hill to climb.
  • And don’t despair. There’s nothing Trump wants to do that hasn’t been done before. This country has long and ugly histories of protectionism, religious persecution, racial bias, anti-immigrant hysteria and environmental carelessness. We muddled through. The difference is that these policies were pursued by people who actually believed in them and were way more competent than Donald J. Trump. And if you think the country is going backward, look how far forward it has come. Gay marriage is legal and the GOP basically doesn’t care. Legal marijuana is spreading and the GOP is whistling in the dark. Our society … our society outside of politics … is more open and dynamic than it has ever been. 60 million votes can not turn back that tide.
  • Trust me, your conservative friends are not happy about this either. Trump is not a conservative, he’s a dim-bulb populist. At its best, conservatism is about restraint of government power and respect for existing institutions. My conservatism, such as it is, is the conservatism of Milton Friedman. Trump is against free trade, against small government, against civil liberties and for a massive powerful state. With him in charge, there is no conservative party anymore. Oh, the conservatives will try to cling to him. But in the end, they will be sacrificed on the populist altar.
  • We have, for the last decade or more, lived in an Culture of Outrage. We are constantly hearing about how some celebrity, some politician or even some random internet person has said something so ridiculously OUTRAGEOUS that they must be shunned from public life (and yes, conservative are just as eager to indulge in outrage culture as liberals). This anger is sometimes legit. But it has become so ubiquitous, so random and often so out of proportion that the public has become inured to it. As a result, Trump’s long string of outrageous statements stopped mattering. People stopped caring.
  • One question may be why the public ignored a very legitimate complaint about Trump — his terrible behavior with women. A big part of the problem was that the Democrats were, quite possibly, in the worst position to make a big deal out of it. The party that spent decades overlooking Ted Kennedy’s behavior and Chris Dodd’s behavior and Bill Clinton’s behavior, the party that saw Joe Biden’s tendency to get handsy with women as endearing had absolutely no leg to stand on with Republicans and independents. Trump bringing Bill Clinton’s accusers to the fore — derided as a stunt — actually worked. Because it reminded many voters that the Democrats rarely give a damn when their own politicians do everything Trump was accused of. Until you start calling out your own political allies, sexual harassment and abuse by politicians will be tolerated. That was as true this year as it was in 1998.
  • Just a random prediction here: Hillary Clinton will not be “locked up”. Ever. Almost all of the investigations into her behavior will be dropped. There’s no point in it now for Trump.
  • Finally, we should never let politics rule our lives. It has an important place. But regardless of which particular power-hungry idiot is sitting in the Oval Office, we must do what we always do: go to work, raise our kids, teach our students, try to get a little exercise, be kind to each other. We are better than our leaders and more powerful. They rule based on our good will. And if Trump (or anyone else) starts acting the tyrant, we must all fight against him. We must especially fight against him if that tyranny is indeed directed against Muslims or Latinos or whatever other group Trump has decided is the Enemy. If there is one silver lining to this awful election, it is this: maybe, going forward, we can remember our sacred power to tell the government to get stuffed, to tell leaders to get bent, to stand up against the power of the state. And maybe … we’ll give it a little less power to be abused in the first place.

Now is not the time to despair, whether you are a liberal or a conservative. And if you’re a Trump supporter, now is not the time for complacency. Now is the time for all of us to bend our shoulders to the wheel and push harder then ever. A lot of power was just given to Donald Trump. And only the combined and unrelenting pressure from all of us will keep him from abusing it.

Comments are closed.

  1. AlexInCT

    I know a lot of Democrats are depressed right now. And a lot of minorities are outright scared. I guess it’s easy to just write off half the nation as evil racist sexist monsters. But that would be a mistake.

    Based on what you posted after that Hal I would advice you to reread your own advice…

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  2. richtaylor365

     

    I am currently entertaining the idea of letting Right-Thinking close but starting up a new WordPress blog from the ashes.

    I’m confused, I thought Jim had the car keys, not you. And even if you did not want to be a part of it anymore, why would you just “close” it, even if you did have that power?

    And with the GOP descending into a populist chaos

    You say that as if being a populist was a bad thing? And I think the dems are suffering from much more chaos, don’t you?

     I’m willing to give him a chance but I strongly suspect this will end poorly

    Now there is the power of positive thinking, you couldn’t let just a little of the magnanimity Clinton exhibited in her concessional speech rub off on you?

    I have no idea how Trump will govern and, frankly, neither does he.

    Here is my hope. Trump had a blast running for president, mixing it up (and besting) with seasoned politicians, being in the limelight, giving all those rally speeches, he likes being adored. But now the real work begins and if his victory speech was any indication, he gets the sanctity/solemnity of the position, will earnestly roll up his sleeves and try to live up to the promise of making America great again.

     For the first time in my life, I wonder if my kids will have it better than I did.

    The guy hasn’t stepped one foot in the WH and you are already predicting Armageddon. With the progressive/socialist agenda that Obama gave us, and the resultant exploding of the national debt, my hopes for my kids were dashed years ago.

    Absent all of Trump’s promises, rosy scenarios for prosperity, and expectations for a better America, no where do I hear him addressing the national debt. A realistic determined assault on this is the only indicator for me for future prosperity and greatness.

    You think Trump voters can’t be reasoned with? Garbage

    Do you actually know any Trump supporters, ever really talked with any face to face? The way you portray them, it is deplorable. I have many friends that were Trump supporters, these folks would laugh at you for the way you describe them, bigots, homophobes, islamophopes, narrow minded, back woods simpletons. These are the folks that pay the taxes that keep this nation running, they are tired of being marginalized and fleeced, they want change, now they will get it.

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  3. Santino

    If money is still an issue, I’d be more than happy to give my share monthly to keep this site going.

    Do you actually know any Trump supporters…

    My read of Hal’s point is that he agrees with you on this one.

     

     

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  4. Hal_10000 *

    Do you actually know any Trump supporters, ever really talked with any face to face? 

    Yes.  My whole family in fact.  There are deplorables in the van of the Trump wave. But most are not.  Which is precisely what I was saying.

    I’m confused, I thought Jim had the car keys, not you. And even if you did not want to be a part of it anymore, why would you just “close” it, even if you did have that power

    Obviously, Jim does. But I think it’s unfair to ask him to continue to support the site.  By “let it close” I mean let right-thinking end, not just open right-thinking Mark II under WordPress.

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  5. CM

    The same country that just elected Trump elected Obama. Twice. Instead of retreating even further into epistemic closure, find out why people really voted for Trump. It wasn’t because they hate black people. And it wasn’t because they hate women. Don’t close off. Don’t isolate. Don’t cut off your family members or friends who voted against you. Argue. Persuade.

    Only 18.6% of Americans actually voted for Trump (18.7% voted for Clinton).

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  6. West Virginia Rebel

    I tend to agree, Hillary will probably never see the inside of a courtroom, let alone a jail cell. She has mastered the art of letting others fall on their swords for her.

    Half the country is severely disappointed right now, but most of that will pass. I really do think that the ones in meltdown mode-Hollywood, college snowflakes, etc-are a minority. These are the same people who panicked about the evil Boosh, but we survived.

    I don’t know how much of what Trump promised he’ll be able to deliver. Get rid of Obamacare-yes. A wall? No. New trade deals with China and Mexico? Probably. Less government regulations on business and help for the energy industry? Likely. A more Constitutionalist Supreme Court? Yes.

    It would be a shame to see Right Thinking go, but a new site could be a good shot in the arm. I’m sure Lee would have agreed. Good luck with whatever you guys decide to do.

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  7. richtaylor365

    Obviously, Jim does.

    What I read was that he did not have the time or the finances to run it anymore, then he offered some ideas about turning the keys over to someone else and running it on a smaller budget. Nowhere did I see any desire to kill it.

    As one of the contributing writers, I would like to see it continue.

    And as for predicting doom, Hillary was magnanimous, forward thinking and patriotic in her speech this morning. She urged her followers to support the new guy, wish him well, and put country before politics, I would expect everyone here to do the same.

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  8. CM

    Warning, some sarcasm lies ahead.
    I want to start by saying “congratulations” to those who voted for and supported Mr. Trump. I would want and expect them to congratulate me if my candidate had won the election.
    I also want to congratulate you on securing both the Senate and the House of Representatives. This was certainly no small accomplishment. Soon, you will also fill the vacancy on The United States Supreme Court, which has been left vacant due to a refusal to even consider a candidate put forth by a sitting president. In less than 3 months, you will control all 3 branches of our government.
    While others may be concerned about this, I am actually very excited at this rare opportunity laying before you. Essentially, you will be able to do whatever you want. There will be no pesky “checks and balances” to slow you down. No more elite Democrats standing in your way.
    Unlike past presidents taking over power, you will now be able to do absolutely everything you promised during the campaign. How great that you will have nobody to blame if your policies fail, or if you are unable to deliver what you promised. It is all about taking personal responsibility, correct?
    I am excited to finally get to see Mr. Trump’s tax returns, which he promised to disclose if elected. I cannot wait to see Mexico pay for the building of a wall that will employ thousands of US citizens. I am excited to see the “terrific” replacement you have for Obamacare. Not to mention the rebuilding of our infrastructure at a “third of the cost” of what we are paying now. And what about taking care of all those women who you respect so greatly, while at the same time defunding plan parenthood. These are certainly exciting times. Just let us know how and where we need to sign up for the database you are going to create for refugees and immigrants so we can be better protected. Will that be an online service so we can do that from our home? Let me know when you have spoken to Putin and convinced him to take care of the Islamic state. Also, I am so excited to see the “bombing the shit out of Isis”. That sounds really exciting. Who doesn’t enjoy a good shit-bombing. When should we call the families of all the hostages in Iran and let them know that you have negotiated their releases. I know that you said you would do that before you took office. Maybe it can be even sooner? Also, let us know when all of the jobs will come back from China. I am sure there are a lot of people just waiting to fill out an application. Finally, who should I call about getting the deportation of the 11 million immigrants illegally living in America? Is there going to be a bus taking them all out of the country or are they simply going to walk across the border?
    I am going to keep my checklist next to my bed so every time you accomplish one of your promises, I can check it off my list. I am just so happy that I won’t have to listen you you complain anymore that somebody or something kept you from fulfilling your promises to this country.
    I am so excited to see you accomplish all of these things and “make America great again.”
    I pledge to do my part and remind you in 4 years of all the things you promised.

    https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.j.fogel/posts/10210368243943650?__mref=message_bubble

    It’s a good point though – the Republicans will have everything their own way, there will be no excuses. Well, other than blaming Obama…..;-)

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  9. ilovecress

    Sorry, long post – but i do have a lot of thoughts. TL:DR – So what happens now?

    Firstly, whatever happens with the site, I’m in for helping it happen either with leg work, keyboard work or cash. I’ve been around here for about 12 years I think, so it would be sad to see it disappear.

    You often ask why people like me, and CM are bothering to find out about and discuss American politics. Well firstly, it’s because it’s something that fascinates me. But secondly it’s because the decisions made by a superpower reverberate all the way out here in the middle of the Pacific. I picked up my coffee from the garage this morning, and the cashier pointed to the Herald front page and said “can you believe it?”. I’ve been pulled into a couple of meetings already with people wanting to strategise on what this means, but coming up empty. The mood of this little country is seriously spooked.

    So a few random thoughts: but my main takeout is that these are all the same issues we saw with Brexit.

    1.)    Bubbles. In my little middle class urban, Auckland dwelling, London centric ecosphere, this was an unthinkable outcome. Because the daily traffic I see comes from people I generally agree with already. Facebook knows that I read more Guardian articles than Breitbart ones, so that’s what it serves up. It’s an effort to find alternative points of view, and is something that the internet actively tries to fight against. This is why Brexit was a shock, because I didn’t know any leave voters, and I saw the NHS claim debunked so many times, that I assumed it was common knowledge. And it’s the same on the ‘other side’. I’ll bet if Alex and CM listed the subjects in their newsfeeds you’d see two completely different realities presented. I’m shocked that I am shocked.

    2.)    Establishment thinking. The side with the most money always wins. It was Hillarys turn. Trump could never be president. Vox created a model (538 style) to interpret the polls alongside a bunch of other data. It consistently showed a Trump victory. But the story they ran with was about how weird the model was. Anti-Trump people left their ballot blank. Because they thought Hillary would win.  538 showed a +30% chance, which are pretty good odds if you think about it.

    3.)    I know I keep banging on about it – but now’s the time to grapple with what you’ve voted for. The GOP have run the table, and now you’re going to have to govern. Ding Dong the Witch is dead, so there’s nothing left to vote against. It’s not ‘get rid of Obamacare’ any more. It’s ‘come up with a new healthcare system’ (he’s a fan of single payer by the way). It’s not ‘build a wall’. It’s ‘come up with a new immigration system’. It’s going to be fun on my next trip over there to find out exactly what ‘extreme vetting’ is! It’s not ‘get rid of bad deals’ – it’s ‘come up with a new international trade policy’. It’s not ‘get rid of the Iran deal’ – it’s ‘come up with a new foreign policy for the middle east’. He’s said he’d reduce spending, but most of his policy positions cost money – so it’ll be fun to see where he cuts. To change from something, you, by definition, change to something. And I don’t know that anyone knows what you’ll end up with. See also May, Teresa.

    4.)    Hillary. This is total Monday Morning quarterbacking, but I can’t remember a single thing she promised to do in the Whitehouse. Minimum wage? That was Bernie’s jam. Parental Care? Trump had that too. Starting WW3 in Syria? Let’s ignore that one…Basing a campaign on the gamble that more people hated Trump than hated Hillary, in hind sight looks like a really bad gamble to take. See also Cameron, David.

     

    5.)    It’s going to be weird for a bit. A few of my US friends have already been abused and shouted at. A bunch of people are pretty frightened. The Alt-Right reddit crowd are out in force. This all happened in London in June too. I know from hanging around you guys for ten years that the ‘deplorable’ wing of the Republican base is the (vast) minority – so please don’t let them tell your story. Trump wasn’t elected because his supporters are racists. But it’s going to seem like that for a few days because the racists are going to get pretty loud, and minorities are going to get pretty scared.

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  10. ilovecress

    David Wong (Cracked)

    The truth is, most of Trump’s voters voted for him despite the fact that he said/believes awful things, not because of it. That in no way excuses it, but I have to admit I’ve spent eight years quietly tuning out news stories about drone strikes blowing up weddings in Afghanistan.

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  11. AlexInCT

    Only 18.6% of Americans actually voted for Trump (18.7% voted for Clinton).

    Thank god for the foresight our forefathers had to create a republic with an electoral college to avoid everyone being left to the mercy of the dysfunctional urban areas that are dis proportionally populated by people that vote for a living, I say. I for one don’t want to be living in a country ruled by people put into power by those that inhabit cities like LA, NY, Detroit, Washington DC, and other dregs that the democrats have turned into giant shitholes.

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  12. InsipiD

    Regardless of what happens to RTFLC, it’s been a lot of fun and a lot of learning here for me. I have certainly built some of my views around what I’ve found on here.

    As for President-elect Trump. As long as he’s trucking along with what he promised in the campaign, we can hardly be upset for fulfilled campaign promises. This might be a chance for someone to temper some of what Obama just declared had to be. I hope that he does a great job. For all his flaws, at least he isn’t Hillary Clinton.

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  13. Hal_10000 *

    And as for predicting doom, Hillary was magnanimous, forward thinking and patriotic in her speech this morning. She urged her followers to support the new guy, wish him well, and put country before politics, I would expect everyone here to do the same.

    And I expect, although I’m unlikely to see, that if Trump blows a hole in the deficit, people will scream just as loud as they did when Obama did. I expect if Trump uses the power of govt to attack his enemies, for people to scream just as loud.  I expect that if he quells free speech or ramps up mass surveillance or kills people with drones, for people to scream just as loud.

    But I don’t think I’ll see that.  The GOP is already preparing a tax cut that will blow out the deficit by $3 trillion.  Trump’s potential pick as DHS Secretary thinks we should quell the anti-Trump protests at colleges.  And I expect this will all go down without a peep out of the Right Wing.  Because I spent eight years being called a traitor for calling out Bush’s abuses.

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  14. Hal_10000 *

    One thing I’ll note: the Democrats are really up shit creek right now. They have been losing so thoroughly at the state and local level that they really don’t have a clear path forward.  Had Trump lost, the Republicans had a deep bench of candidates for 2020 — Rubio, Cruz, Perry, etc.

    Who have the Democrats got for 2020?  Warren will be 71.  Sanders will be 77.  Cuomo?  Don’t make me laugh.  O’Malley? Right.  Booker has a shot, I guess.  But they really don’t have great options because of the ongoing massacre at the state level.

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  15. AlexInCT

    One thing I’ll note: the Democrats are really up shit creek right now. They have been losing so thoroughly at the state and local level that they really don’t have a clear path forward.  

    Yes they do. They will double down on more of the same, with even more rigor and vim than before, because obviously the problem is that they weren’t  (criminal, corrupt, collectivist, deceptive, devious, delusional, and Alinski-like) enough. Take your pick.

    BTW, I hope the republican establishment burns down right along with them. It would be the best thing for this country if both these parties and the credentialed elitist DC douchebags filling them got gutted.

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  16. ilovecress

     It would be the best thing for this country if both these parties and the credentialed elitist DC douchebags filling them got gutted.

    Leaving you with…..? no one seems to have thought past the explosion.

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  17. CM

    One thing I’ll note: the Democrats are really up shit creek right now. They have been losing so thoroughly at the state and local level that they really don’t have a clear path forward.  Had Trump lost, the Republicans had a deep bench of candidates for 2020 — Rubio, Cruz, Perry, etc.

    Yep the more I assess this, the more I’m starting to think that this is terrible for both parties, and the country. The Dems will shift left in response. Inevitably they’ll get back into power (and soon, if Trump is an epic failure) and yet Hillary-haters will be faced with the prospect of someone which will make them pine for Hillary. The Republican Party, which was Trump’s play-thing during the primaries and general election campaign, is now his little bitch. If the Republican plan was to see him lose, lance the boil, learn some lessons and get stronger as a result, then that’s gone down in flames bigly.

    There was a fair amount of disappointment on the left with what Obama failed to achieve, but anyone paying attention knew that he was obstructed at every turn and it’s amazing he got anything done. However that level of disappointment is going to pale in comparison to the rust-belt voters who have now been promised a whole range of things that simply can’t be delivered (e.g. the promises that have been deleted from Trump’s campaign website). Particularly when there is no political obstruction. Won’t be able to blame the Dems. Where will that anger go? How will it manifest?

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  18. ilovecress

    Quote from Huffpo so you don’t have to click:

    Donna Brazile, the interim leader of the Democratic National Committee, was giving what one attendee described as “a rip-roaring speech” to about 150 employees, about the need to have hope for wins going forward, when a staffer identified only as Zach stood up with a question.

    “Why should we trust you as chair to lead us through this?” he asked, according to two people in the room. “You backed a flawed candidate, and your friend [former DNC chair Debbie Wasserman Schultz] plotted through this to support your own gain and yourself.”

    Some DNC staffers started to boo and some told him to sit down. Brazile began to answer, but Zach had more to say.

    “You are part of the problem,” he continued, blaming Brazile for clearing the path for Trump’s victory by siding with Clinton early on. “You and your friends will die of old age and I’m going to die from climate change. You and your friends let this happen, which is going to cut 40 years off my life expectancy.”

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  19. richtaylor365

    And I expect, although I’m unlikely to see, that if Trump blows a hole in the deficit, people will scream just as loud as they did when Obama did.

    Really? you think it unlikely, where have you been the last 10 years?

    Although we do have a ready made blueprint for excellence for you, the Obama model, start off with a $1.2 trillion deficit the first year, then work your way down from there, high fives all around.

    And since we know by Monday’s CBO report that deficits are now going up again (still under Obama’s watch) you seem hell bent to saddle Trump with this already;

    That’s the message in the Congressional Budget Office’s summary, released Monday, of the fiscal year that closed in September. Though the subject barely came up in the campaign—little policy substance did—the federal fisc is once again heading for trouble. There are some lessons in this for the next President, who will quickly realize that Mr. Obama’s fiscal luck has finally run out—on his successor’s watch.

    One lesson is that the days of easy deficit reduction are over. The annual deficit in 2016 rose for the first time in three years—by $148 billion to $587 billion. That’s 3.2% of GDP, up sharply from 2.5% last year.

    And since I just wrote this yesterday;

    Absent all of Trump’s promises, rosy scenarios for prosperity, and expectations for a better America, no where do I hear him addressing the national debt. A realistic determined assault on this is the only indicator for me for future prosperity and greatness.

    That should tell you, along with 10 years of comments on this blog reiterating my stand on deficits and the national debt, that if Trump goes all ape shit like your typical progressive and does blow a hole in the deficit, I will be Johnny on the spot to rip him for it.

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  20. CM

    I will be Johnny on the spot to rip him for it.

    It’ll be too little too late. You voted for it. Blowing up the deficit was a well advertised result of what he’s pledged to do.

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  21. Iconoclast

    Yep the more I assess this, the more I’m starting to think that this is terrible for both parties, and the country.

    A Trump defeat was supposed to destroy the GOP, and now a Trump victory is going to destroy both the GOP and the Democratic Party.

    And it seems any GOP victory is “terrible for the country”.

    Can’t win for losing, I guess.

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  22. Iconoclast

    From CM’s link:

    There can be no unifying a country when you dismiss its citizens’ protests as a media conspiracy executed by crisis actors.

    Likewise, there can be no unifying a country when so many big babies “protest” the results of an election, or starting an idiotic #NotMyPresident campaign.  Protesting against human rights abuses is one thing.  Protesting simply because you didn’t get your way is infantile.

    And refusing to accept that Trump is your President is potentially far more damaging to democracy than anything you might accuse Trump of doing.

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  23. Hal_10000 *

    Cress, I posted that on Twitter last night. Zach is right. That the Democrats are cheering for Brazille, rather than her booing her off the stage, shows they don’t get what just happened.  They just want to pat themselves on the back and think they’re better than everyone.

    Had a really interesting conversation with my mom last night, who supported Trump.  One thing she said (and I’ve heard from many here as well) was that she not unaware of how awful Trump was.  But:

    1) Trump’s awfulness did not make Clinton less awful; and a lot of people really despise Clinton.  We were talking about Clinton’s career and how — as I said in my anti-Clinton post — the idea that she has this great career as a politician is a fantasy.  She stuffed up healthcare reform, she got embroiled in scandal, she had trouble winning a gimme Senate seat, she couldn’t beat Obama, she couldn’t beat Sanders without cheating and now she couldn’t beat Trump.  The idea that she is some kind of feminist icon is ridiculous.  Were it not for her last name, she’d never have been even close to the White House.

    (I’ve also now heard from a least a dozen personal friends and family who voted from Trump that they would have seriously considered voting for Sanders had he been the nominee.  Who know.  Maybe a few months being slimed by the election would have tainted him in their eyes and they would’ve voted Trump anyway.  But it tells you a lot that die-hard Republicans, people who’ve been voting GOP, in my mom’s case, since 1960, might have voted for the socialist.  Because at least he wasn’t a crook.)

    2) This really did come down to how many people feel that they are left behind in this country.  Part of that is inevitable — America is changing.  But it’s also because as good as the economic numbers look on paper, they conceal a lot.  If you’re educated and urban, you’re doing well.  If you didn’t go to college or you live in a small town, you’re really struggling.  The Democrats don’t seem to get that.  Trump, for all his flaws, did acknowledge this.

    Now his solutions to this are total shit.  Trade and immigration barriers will make things worse, not better.  But then again, the Democrats solutions — raising the minimum wage and something something — wouldn’t have either.  The problem is that no one has a solution to what to do about our diverging economy.  And this is a massive problem leading to the rise of far-right policies all over the Western World.

    Someone needs to figure this out before it really gets bad.

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  24. Hal_10000 *

    Also, I badly underestimate how bad the deplorables comment hurt Clinton. Most people are not on Twitter and are not aware of the tiny but very active cadre of racist trolls who descend on Trump critics. There was a point to make there — that people like the KKK and David Duke liked Trump.  But Clinton bolloxed the point so badly it was a disaster.

    Surprisingly, people don’t like being called racists.

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  25. richtaylor365

    Had a really interesting conversation with my mom last night, who supported Trump. 

    Yesterday I spent the day with my mom and the rest of the family (aunts, uncles, cousins) to celebrate my birthday. They live in a town in the central valley, red leaning so I felt somewhat safe talking politics in the restaurant without being spit on or having my food poisoned, a likely outcome in the Bay Area. My family is evangelical, blue collar, middle class. Everything you said in your above comment is true. Hillary was never an option and although Trump is at times a poor excuse for a moral man or even a human being, their choice was obvious. They will pray for Trump and hope that God gives him guidance and hope he is smart enough to see it when it comes.

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  26. Hal_10000 *

    They will pray for Trump and hope that God gives him guidance and hope he is smart enough to see it when it comes.

    OK. Maybe I’m tired but I found that sentence actually moving.  I share that hope.

    Oh, and Happy Belated Birthday, Rich!

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  27. richtaylor365

    Thanks

    The irony is that for the last year in family get togethers I was always the black sheep, the only non-Trump supporter, the guy that had silly notions about needing to respect the guy I vote for and could not pull the lever for such a substandard morally bankrupt candidate.  My decision was literally made on election day.

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  28. ilovecress

    Happy Birthday Rich  – hope you had a good one.

    Also – just to be clear, the rioting is bullshit. I’m fine with the protesting and I guess we need to have a hashtag, or how will we make our voices heard AND still drink our Lattes. But rioting is bullshit.

    So this is the most devastating thing for us lefties. These are the salty tears that Alex is going to lap up. The thing that makes this sting more than anything.

    We’re meant to be the rebels. You guys are meant to be the empire. But we fucked it up by staying on Tattoine. We thought Trump had no chance of winning, so the revolution could wait until next time.

    All the reasons that Trumps populism appeals, are the same things that we’ve been saying for a while. Corrupt politicians. Wall Street influence. Income disparity. Stagnant working class wages. Real people left behind. Unnecessary wars. The Government revolving door. The system set up in favour of corporations rather than people. (Globally, not just in the US)The status quo is not A-OK.

    But  the DNCs strategy (and Labours in the UK) –said incremental change was the way forward, and that while, yes, corporate influence is bad, this one time it’s necessary. Just get the status quo through this election and then we can start about addressing those concerns. I mean what are you going to do? Vote for Trump/Boris?

    So we just went along with it. We tried to understand the trump voters, but it was via articles called things like ‘Trump Land’ and ‘Finding the Trump Voter’ – which made it seem like they were these rare beasts. In hindsight, every time I heard someone on a podcast or something talking about the ‘Trump Voter Phenomenon’, at least one person would say that their parents were trump voters. No one took notice of the pattern that everyone’s parents are trump voters. And everyone has two parents.

    The right went after Hillary so viciously (I dont’ want to litigate here if it was justified or not – that isn’t my point) that us lefties played defence. Thinking about it, the whole DNC message was “Vote for Hillary, she’s not as bad as that other guy is saying she is.” We ended up arguing that the status quo was A-OK.

    We wanted to punch Washington in the face too, to break the system. Globalisation and diversification is marching on, and the old way of dealing with it wasn’t working for a LOT of people, and that needs to change.

    I’m happy that someone is flying X Wings towards the Death Star. It’s actually what the left have been advocating for years. The worry is what will be left over once the smouldering remains are gone. Because we gave up our right to shape that when we settled for incremental change.

     

    Fuck.

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  29. AlexInCT

    Leaving you with…..? no one seems to have thought past the explosion.

    Really Cress? You feel you have to ask that? It’s not enough that the problem is removed for there to not be an issue to worry about? I thought it would be apparent what the natural conclusion of that would be. Or do you mean that the left will never let this play out naturally or organically, and that they would burn everything down if they lost the way things were now?

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  30. AlexInCT

    Quote from Huffpo so you don’t have to click:

    Doubling down on more of the same, and exactly what I expected, Cress. For those few sane ones left on the left, the ones that dare to stand up and point to the failures, corruption, and downright stupidity of doubling down on more of the same, and even dare to question the master’s expectations, expect the machine to treat them worse than they want to treat Trump supporters. Anyone that dares question the establishment, the agenda, and the narrative, is a heretic, and heretics are the ones oft treated the worst in history by those that they point out to that what they all belong to is full of shit.

    I am loving it. The corrupted and sick beast is eating itself up, lashing out in anger at anyone that dares to question them, both from within or without, and I don’t even feel ashamed to say I am gleeful about it. It couldn’t happen to a bunch of more deserving people.

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  31. AlexInCT

    And refusing to accept that Trump is your President is potentially far more damaging to democracy than anything you might accuse Trump of doing.

    Remember when Trump was unworthy because he wouldn’t admit to respecting the results of an election when the left thought they would walk away with it? Double standards, baby. Because without that, they have nothing.

    Hey, dissent is patriotic again, I guess….

    Man these leftists and their situational morality can be confusing. (that’s sarcasm)

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  32. ilovecress

    My point, Alex, is that your guy is going to punch Washington in the face, and ‘disrupt’ things. He defeated the status quo, and delivered a fatal sentence to the powerful elite. All good. Then what?

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  33. richtaylor365

    Cress, I am sympathetic towards your Brexit plight.  Although I was for it (from across the pond with no vote) I really hope it works out. We have shared fortunes. The status quo was not working, something had to be done, thus Brexit/Trump.

    All good. Then what?

    Now we wait and see. Burning it all down is fine if you have the ready made plan, and the ability to implement, to make things better.

    Nobody here, especially the Trump supporters, think his success (and ours) is a sure thing. He has won an election with no demonstrable political skills in evidence. He has the floor, now lets see if he can dance.

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  34. Iconoclast

    We’re meant to be the rebels. You guys are meant to be the empire.

    Interesting, because many of us see it the other way around;  Hillary is the quintessential career politician, corrupt as hell, thoroughly connected, and feeling entitled to the Presidency, whereas Trump is the outsider whose career was completely outside of politics.

    And that’s fucking terrifying.

    Unknowns often are.  We fully realize that we’re taking a risk, but the alternative (double down on the status quo) was simply not going to work for us.

    Maybe Brexit can be likened to the signing of the DOI (and ensuing Revolutionary War).  That was 1776, and we didn’t get a functioning government until 1987, eleven years later.  During the interim, we struggled with the disastrous Articles of Confederation.  So yeah, there may be missteps along the way, but I see no reason to believe you won’t figure it out eventually.

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  35. CM

    I second the motion that the rioting is bullshit and stupid. Nothing at all wrong with peaceful protest, and of course that’s what the vast majority of it is, but the people involved in rioting need to be actively disowned/shunned/criticised.

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  36. CM

     He has the floor, now lets see if he can dance.

    Well he’s already engaging in self-pity via twitter so tha may be a sign that he’s reverting to the Trump we know from the campaign. I just can’t see how he’s going to be able to turn into a completely different person. He does not seem to have any self-control.

    Based on what I’ve seen and read since the result, Warren and Sanders appear to be leading the Dem/left.

    Bernie:

    http://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/sanders-statement-on-trump

    “Donald Trump tapped into the anger of a declining middle class that is sick and tired of establishment economics, establishment politics and the establishment media.  People are tired of working longer hours for lower wages, of seeing decent paying jobs go to China and other low-wage countries, of billionaires not paying any federal income taxes and of not being able to afford a college education for their kids – all while the very rich become much richer.
    “To the degree that Mr. Trump is serious about pursuing policies that improve the lives of working families in this country, I and other progressives are prepared to work with him. To the degree that he pursues racist, sexist, xenophobic and anti-environment policies, we will vigorously oppose him.”

    Warren:

    https://twitter.com/AnnieLinskey/status/796430871901442048/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

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  37. Hal_10000 *

    One thing I’ll note: Paul Ryan was pilloried for standing by Trump.  But by not abandoning him, he’ll wield an influence (and, more importantly, retained control of the House caucus).  I’m really hoping we get more of a Ryan govt than anything else.

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  38. AlexInCT

    My point, Alex, is that your guy is going to punch Washington in the face, and ‘disrupt’ things.

    I am absolutely hoping he does. Those of us that here tired of the “Business as usual” crap elected him precisely so he would punch these elitist credentialed establishment douches in the mouth. Frankly I can’t think of it getting any worse than it already is (especially with Hillary having lost: because I am certain she would have doubled down on the very things that would make things worse).

    He defeated the status quo, and delivered a fatal sentence to the powerful elite. All good. Then what?

    Reduce the size and power of the federal government, roll back the regulatory miasma that has crippled the economy, undo the welfare state that basically exists as a vote buying machine for one party, and more importantly, stop stealing from the productive to enrich the powerful elite. The globalist movement, especially one that demands the people of US bow to the will of scumbags like the ones in DC or the UN, needs to die an ugly death. It is a pox on humanity.

    I am actually finally feeling ebullient about some hope and change…

    I am sure those that live off of the way things are today feel this is frightening and horrible, but to me, that was the last 8 years, and I have a dysfunctional world to prove it.

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  39. CM

    A lot of the people feeling frightened and horrible are in groups that he has threatened and abused. Not for their political affiliation though. But obviously you need to ignore/deny this to maintain your fantasies.

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  40. ilovecress

    I am absolutely hoping he does. Those of us that here tired of the “Business as usual” crap elected him precisely so he would punch these elitist credentialed establishment douches in the mouth.

    On that we agree. But the laundry list of things you want next bear no relation to what you were actually voting for.

    Reduce the size and power of the federal government

    Good luck with that one. The 10,000 immigration agents, the register of all (muslim at this point) citizens. Double the infrastructure spending of Clinton. Maybe Government will get smaller – but that’s quite a gamble. But I assume if he does try to expand Government power, you’ll be with us in opposing that?

    undo the welfare state that basically exists as a vote buying machine for one party

    He’s talked about a welfare reform act, but it’s more about admin than anything. I don’t see the welfare state shrinking any time soon. Maybe he’ll change his mind, but that’s quite a gamble.

    stop stealing from the productive to enrich the powerful elite

    You’ll probably like his tax plan, I’ll grant you, but it doesn’t really do what you say above. Your wish sounds quite Bernie, actually.

    The globalist movement, especially one that demands the people of US bow to the will of scumbags like the ones in DC or the UN, needs to die an ugly death.

    Sure, that’ll probably happen (but again, who knows?) but again, what’s left. Globablisation is happening. If you’re going to opt out, then good on ya, but what’s your plan for prospering outside the system?

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  41. AlexInCT

    A lot of the people feeling frightened and horrible are in groups that he has threatened and abused.

    This idiotic shit is precisely why he beat the scumbag you rooted for. Nobody has abused more people than the Clintons. Bill Clinton is a rapist. A REAL rapist. Hillary is about as vile as a human being can be. But here you are trying to pass Trump off as worse.

    What you really have CM is a bunch of douchbags without spines believing their own lies and acting like immature children. They are throwing a tantrum and justifying it by piling on with the stupid. They are mad that Trump is not only not PC, but challenged them on their own playground and defeated their stupid asses.

    Sure some are actually scared, but what these people really are scared about is the fact that after the left spent the last 8 years weaponizing the government, they suddenly don’t control it or the guy in charge.

    That’s what this crap is all about. The rest is idiots being idiots, and deserving of nothing but scorn.

    Abuse this you douchebags. I, and others like me,  have been abused by stupidity and absurdity, on an order of magnitude that baffles intelligence, for too long now, and yet, my standing up against that abuse and saying no more, makes me or Trump the threat? The abuse here is what you leftards have been heaping on humanity.You people should try pulling your heads out of your asses and live in the real world for a while. Fresh air might not reverse your brain damage, but it certainly might help.

    Thumb up 0

  42. AlexInCT

    On that we agree. But the laundry list of things you want next bear no relation to what you were actually voting for.

    Actually it what I voted for I already got, Cress: No Clinton in the WH. The rest is gravy…

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  43. ilovecress

    Actually it what I voted for I already got, Cress: No Clinton in the WH. The rest is gravy…

    I honestly hope it is. But like I said, a real gamble.

    Thumb up 0

  44. CM

    A REAL rapist

    Is that right, Whoopi?

    Double-standard No. 1. How are B Clinton and D Trump not both alleged rapists? Do you get to differentiate because of political affiliation? Remembering that we know Trump brags about his own sexual assault and also that when Bill was facing allegations Trump said he was a victim.

    the scumbag you rooted for.

    Actually it what I voted for I already got, Cress: No Clinton in the WH.

    Double-standard No 2. According to you people weren’t able to vote HRC to keep Trump out of the WH, but you were able to vote Trump to keep HRC out.

     

    Thumb up 1

  45. stogy

    I honestly hope it is. But like I said, a real gamble.

    And… right on cue, there go a couple more election promises. Looks like he is going to keep the Iran deal and not build a wall. Newt Gingrich told the Washington Post:

    “He’ll spend a lot of time controlling the border. He may not spend very much time trying to get Mexico to pay for it, but it was a great campaign device.”

    Shorter, simpler Newt: the public are a bunch of dimwit suckers who lapped up all that “build the wall” crap. And we won because of it.

    Just as well you were voting against something and not for something Cress, otherwise you’d be feeling pretty disappointed now.

    Thumb up 0

  46. CM

    Hilarious. I wonder if this was the plan all along. If it was it’ll surely go down as one, if not THE, greatest con-job of all time. Rule as a Democrat and the Democrats take none of the heat. We’ll see.

    Thumb up 0

  47. AlexInCT

    I honestly hope it is. But like I said, a real gamble.

    Not by my count. Trump has started naming names for his cabinet, and so far I am loving his picks. This one makes me fucking ecstatic. And this one would be awesome to me too. I hope there is a ton more like these ones, because this isn’t just great news for freedom loving Americans: it is gold when the totalitarian douchebags leftists heads start exploding.

    Thumb up 0

  48. richtaylor365

    Stogy, come on, first you bold stuff in your other comment thinking the other stuff will just magically disappear, then you selectively cherry pick. How about  keep reading your own link;

    “The wall is going to take a while,” Giuliani said. “Absolutely he’s going to build it; it’s a campaign promise. He’s not going to break a campaign promise.”

    Please tell me this is not the sort of tactic we can expect from your return?

    Cress, I think you are making this more complicated than necessary, allow me to simplify for you…………Supreme Court

    Trump may not follow through on all of his promises (who does?) but Supreme Court.

    Trump may not shrink the government as much as we like but, Supreme Court.

    Trump may not be a conservative and may not please those conservatives that voted for him but, Supreme Court.

    Trump may not even be a very good President but, Supreme Court.

    Oh, and Hillary lost.

    Trump says he will fill SCOTUS positions with Scalia clones, doing just that would make it all worth it.

    Yes, I expect the usual suspects is keep posting links  about broken campaign promises (jeez, he isn’t even in office yet, they just can’t help themselves).

     

    Thumb up 0

  49. CM

    Magically disappear like some of Donald’s most significant campaign promises, and like his tweets calling for revolution after the 2012 election? Lol.

    Thumb up 0

  50. stogy

    Please tell me this is not the sort of tactic we can expect from your return?

    You are really telling me that you actually think he’s going to build a wall and get the Mexicans to pay for it? He can’t even get his own team to maintain a solid line on any one policy. Newt is saying one thing, now Giuliani is saying something completely different.

    And now there is talk of appointing Palin as Secretary of the Interior? Where are the quality ‘mystery’ picks he promised during the campaign – the best team that we have never heard of. His picks are starting to look  like a team of boobs and incompetents.

    Stogy, come on, first you bold stuff in your other comment thinking the other stuff will just magically disappear

    I stand by what I said in those posts – nothing there at all that indicates he said Trump voters should quit. You’ve basically inferred it.

     

    Thumb up 1

  51. Iconoclast

    Looks like he is going to … not build a wall.

    You need to learn how to comprehend written English.  What you quoted:

    “He’ll spend a lot of time controlling the border. He may not spend very much time trying to get Mexico to pay for it, but it was a great campaign device.”

    Your moronic interpretation:

    Shorter, simpler Newt: the public are a bunch of dimwit suckers who lapped up all that “build the wall” crap. And we won because of it.

    The thing is, absolutely nowhere in what you quoted does Gingrich say the wall won’t be built.  No, all he’s saying is Mexico won’t necessarily pay for it, and he’s saying THAT (having Mexico pay for it) was the “great campaign device”.

    Donald Trump says he will build wall, remove ‘criminal’ immigrants during ’60 Minutes’ interview

    Thumb up 0

  52. stogy

    The thing is, absolutely nowhere in what you quoted does Gingrich say the wall won’t be built.  No, all he’s saying is Mexico won’t necessarily pay for it, and he’s saying THAT (having Mexico pay for it) was the “great campaign device”.

    Ah bless you, you actually really think he’s going to build that wall. I would be extremely surprised if he has achieved even 1 in 10 of his election promises by the end of his term.  They will be derailed by a) his lack of policy experience, b) infighting within his team and his inability to keep key staff for more than 12 months, c) opposition from both the Democrats and from within the Republican party, and d) public demonstrations.

    There might be sections of wall, but it will be really just for show. Mexico was never go to pay for it anyway. Newt was just the thin end of the excuse wedge.

    Thumb up 2

  53. Iconoclast

    Ah bless you, you actually really think he’s going to build that wall.

    What I think is irrelevant.  What’s relevant is your inability to comprehend written English.

    Thumb up 0

  54. Iconoclast

    I would be extremely surprised if he has achieved even 1 in 10 of his election promises by the end of his term.

    I’m not at all surprised — of COURSE you think Trump will fail.  That’s a given.  But you guys have been consistently wrong about Trump’s ability  to get nominated and elected, so your dim outlook is of little importance now, and is just more of the same nay-saying you have been doing all along.

    I’m glad you guys are such experts at predicting the future…..

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  55. richtaylor365

    Ah bless you, you actually really think he’s going to build that wall.

    See, this is the kind of crap I called you on earlier. I was really hoping that with your return, some honestly would be displayed from the left aisle on this blog, although Crest has always been good in this area. First you cherry pick bold certain words, like all the other words don’t mean anything, then you cherry pick your own link, not bothering to read one more paragraph down, where it totally contradicts your premise, then you take what Newt said as somehow an admonition that there will be no wall….uuggghhhh!!

    His picks are starting to look  like a team of boobs and incompetents

    No surprise there, somehow I think Solomon, Thucydides, Plato, or Adam Smith would meet with your disapproval.

    Although I must admit that I am not a Steve Bannon fan and I read somewhere  the other day that his Son in law might get  prominent post in his administration. I don’t care if he is the second of Carl Rove, the optics on this ain’t good.

    Thumb up 0

  56. CM

    Iconoclast you were totally resigned to Hillary being elected, so that’s a little pot/kettle.

    So you guys are paying the $5 billion+ for the wall? You voted for a guy who promised a free wall and now you’ll have to pay for it……you must be apoplectic!

    Thumb up 1

  57. CM

    His picks are starting to look  like a team of boobs and incompetents.

    It’s just optics, stogy. Just like all the staged hate crimes to try and make Trump look bad.

    Thumb up 1

  58. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast you were totally resigned to Hillary being elected, so that’s a little pot/kettle.

    But I’m not continuing to make predictions.  That would be stogy.

    So you guys are paying the $5 billion+ for the wall? You voted for a guy who promised a free wall and now you’ll have to pay for it……you must be apoplectic!

    And you must be utterly desperate to find gloom and doom.  Face it, Hillary lost.  Deal.

    There may be a wall.  There may not be a wall.  Mexico might pay for it if there is one to pay for, or they might not.  The wall was never an issue with me, so I am unclear as to why I’m supposed to be apoplectic.  My only concern was the SCOTUS appointments.  So that is your and stogy’s cue to insist on your mothers’ graves that Trump will appoint liberal activist judges.  I’m waiting…..

    Like I’ve said before, it’s a good thing you guys are so damned good at predicting the future.  You yourself gleefully posted on how getting the required electoral votes would be an uphill battle since there were so many already in the Hillary column.   Like I said to stogy, you guys just keep right on making your failed predictions.  It’s inconsequential at this point.

     Just like all the staged hate crimes to try and make Trump look bad.

    At least one hate crime was staged.  And losers did riot.  That is historical reality.

    Thumb up 0

  59. Iconoclast

    Hillary lost.

    You know, every time I read that, I smile to myself, and the idiotic pronouncements from stogy and CM just look even sillier. The Clintons have been relegated to history’s dust heap.  Glorious Day indeed, although CM and stogy will never get it.  As for me, I am willing to be cautiously optimistic and take my chances with The Donald.  Sure, he could very well let me down, but for CM and stogy, that is a foregone conclusion, even though my bar ain’t really that high, and their track record on predicting the future ain’t that great.  Like Alex said, Hillary Lost, so anything The Donald might do that is positive is just gravy.

    I said it before, Trump is Russian Roulette, but Hillary would have been Russian Roulette with either a semi-automatic, or a fully loaded revolver.

    Thumb up 0

  60. CM

    And you must be utterly desperate to find gloom and doom.

    No desperation required. Plenty in evidence, particularly among those who were so horribly abused and threatened by your guy (and certainly his appointment of a white nationalist as his senior advisor suggests they have sound reason to be concerned, whether your lack of empathy or inability to put yourself in anyone else’s shoes enables you to acknowledge it).

    Face it, Hillary lost.  Deal.

    What does that actually mean, in reality? What does ‘facing it’ and ‘dealing’ actually look like? Nobody can now say anything negative about Trump?

    Sorry, but I don’t think you’re going to be allowed to normalise this guy, try hard as you might.

    The wall was never an issue with me, so I am unclear as to why I’m supposed to be apoplectic.

    The high likelihood of having to pay many billions of dollars. So much for fiscal conservatism. Apparently that never mattered much anyway. Apparently almost none of what Obama was criticised for (to the point of ODS) was actually a problem. What a surprise! (not)

    My only concern was the SCOTUS appointments.

    Yes, I know that, I understand you buy into the whole ”ripping babies out of wombs 10 seconds before birth” nonsense, because of your religious extremism and desire to impose that on the country.

    So that is your and stogy’s cue to insist on your mothers’ graves that Trump will appoint liberal activist judges. 

    It is a little confusing – apparently the SCOTUS has already decided about gay marriage, but Roe v Wade wasn’t a decision made on abortion.

    Like I’ve said before, it’s a good thing you guys are so damned good at predicting the future.

    And again, you predicted the future.

    At least one hate crime was staged.  

    Oh well, there we go. At least one means you can ignore the rest as they must also be staged.

    And losers did riot. 

    What does that have to do with hate crimes as a foreseeably direct result of Trump winning? Anyway, I certainly think rioting is counter-productive and I oppose it completely, as I’ve already said.

    That is historical reality.

    Wow, that’s impressive cherry-picking (in order to minimise abuse and threats to our fellow countrymen and women). Good one. I guess if you get your SCOTUS picks it’s all a means to an end though, right? Rhetorical question, you’ve already answered it.

    Thumb up 1

  61. CM

    Glorious Day indeed, although CM and stogy will never get it

    I get part of it. Partisanship on the right, particularly among women, is incredibly strong and can even withstand a candidate such as Trump. Additionally, sufficient numbers of people in the right areas of the country wanted to throw a bomb into the political system because they’re sick of business-as-usual. And Hillary didn’t get sufficient support in those same specific areas to outnumber those who voted Trump because of partisanship or to throw a bomb.

    I also understand that religious extremism results in priorities that aren’t going to make any sense to me.

    I certainly don’t understand how and why other people would minimise, embrace and/or be actively gleeful about all the very negative aspects of Trump (all the abusing and threatening, the clear evidence that he’s proud of using his position to commit sexual assault, the mocking of someone with a disability, and the genuine fear that this causes). Does that stuff make you smile, Iconoclast? Because at this point, it’s not clear.

    Thumb up 1

  62. CM

    Not to mention the explicitly expressed threats to the 1st, 8th, and 14th amendments, and separation of powers. All good though, because back-street abortions are preferable, and Hillary Clinton?

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  63. Iconoclast

    You get none of it. None.  Your rants pretty much prove it. Just more of your self-righteous condemnation of a result you didn’t want.

    You obviously don’t get the SCOTUS appointments.  It ain’t about overturning any previous decision.  It’s about protecting the Bill of Rights going forward.  Hillary had targeted the first two Amendments, and would have made her SCOTUS appointments accordingly.

    The rest of your rant is just ill-informed garbage, not worthy of response.

    [Detailed response reconsidered and deleted]

     

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  64. Iconoclast

    Oh well, there we go. At least one means you can ignore the rest as they must also be staged.

    This is exactly what I mean.  One incident was staged.  Therefore, it stands to reason that possibly others were.  Not all, but possibly some.  The bottom line is that we shouldn’t jump to any conclusions based on them.

    But that’s no fun — don’t want to miss out on self-righteous condemnation mental masturbation, now, do we?

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  65. CM

    You get none of it. None.  Your rants pretty much prove it.

    Ok then, so has ‘it’ been articulated here anywhere? I mean in a way that isn’t just self-righteous condemnation?

    Hillary had targeted the first two Amendments

    And Trump has targeted the 1st, 8th, and 14th amendments, and separation of powers. With respect to the 1st, way more explicitly than Hillary. He threatened to jail his opponent, like a two-bit dictator.

    The rest of your rant is just ill-informed garbage, not worthy of response.

    Right, the abuse and threats explicitly made by Trump and what has resulted from his win and the genuine fear etc being felt are just ill-informed garbage. Thanks for confirming.

    This is exactly what I mean.  One incident was staged.  Therefore, it stands to reason that possibly others were.  Not all, but possibly some.  The bottom line is that we shouldn’t jump to any conclusions based on them.

    This is exactly what I mean. You find one that is staged and you can somehow intellectually minimise or dimiss the rest, on the flimsy rationale that that means they could be too. Lame.

    But that’s no fun — don’t want to miss out on self-righteous condemnation mental masturbation, now, do we?

    And you don’t want to miss out on using “self-righteous condemnation” as something to hide behind.

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  66. Iconoclast

    And Trump has targeted the 1st, 8th, and 14th amendments, and separation of powers. With respect to the 1st, way more explicitly than Hillary. He threatened to jail his opponent, like a two-bit dictator.

    All of which would be nullified with a proper SCOTUS.

     Thanks for confirming.

    Fuck you.  I was talking about all that ripping babies apart nonsense, and your falling back on “EXTREEEEEME” again.  But yeah, losers on the left, again, did riot and trash stuff.  I saw a video of black guys pulling someone out of their car and beating him because he voted for Trump…..

    When Trump’s abuses become real (as opposed to simply predicted), I will be vocal in my opposition.  I was opposed to some of Bush’s policies, but that’s before you ever traipsed into this venue.

    So again, fuck off.

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  67. CM

    All of which would be nullified with a proper SCOTUS.

    And the same wouldn’t apply if Hillary had won? What did Obama achieve in his 8 years?

    Fuck you.  I was talking about all that ripping babies apart nonsense, and your falling back on “EXTREEEEEME” again. 

    Ah, no, go fuck yourself if you can’t articulate yourself properly. You’re the first in line with your self-righteous condemnation when others aren’t as articulate as they should have been. “Words matter”, remember.

     But yeah, losers on the left, again, did riot and trash stuff. 

    Non-sequitor and a logical fallacy. Nice.

    I saw a video of black guys pulling someone out of their car and beating him because he voted for Trump…..

    And that doesn’t in any way invalidate legitimate concerns and fears of all those who didn’t riot (or even get out and protest). Just like one staged abuse doesn’t mean…oh come one, my 10 year old can understand this. Or are you now THIS blinded?

    When Trump’s abuses become real (as opposed to simply predicted), I will be vocal in my opposition. 

    Predicted? He explicitly articulated them, over and over, for months. This ongoing minimisation is possibly more obvious than you intend?

    So again, fuck off.

    Nup.

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  68. Iconoclast

    I cannot help but wonder, if Hillary had won, would you be so utterly fixated on all her negative shit, or would you be preaching to us how and why she’s the best thing for our country right now?

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  69. Iconoclast

    We have endured 8 years of Obama and his oppressive policies.  Hillary would have been a double down on the same shit.  People besides myself decided enough was enough.  I articulated why I was in favor of Trump — it was that teeny tiny glimmer of hope for good SCOTUS appointments.  Other than that, I conceded that he was a vile person, but that Hillary was just as bad if not worse.

    Gays voted for Trump.  So did women, and minorities.  So did millennials, and former Obama voters.  So I’m not sure why you’re on such a rag, CM.

    Trump, for all of his obvious faults, still represents that teeny tiny glimmer of hope, and I’ll be marxdamned if I let you try and take that away from me or anyone else who is relieved that the Obama/Clinton nightmare has ended.

    Yes, a Trump nightmare may begin.  Well, for loser like you, it already has.  Reagan was also supposed to be the End Of The World, as I recall.

    Well, again, I will cling to that glimmer of hope.  So fuck you again.

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  70. CM

    I realise that narratives are everything, but I was never pro-Hillary. She supported the Iraq War so immediately she’s disqualified from being first choice for anything as far as I’m concerned. She also made some other terrible choices (using a private email server being Exhibit B). So I totally agree that she has some ‘poor judgement’ examples against her. Much of what else she’s been accused of seems to be mainly an alt-right narrative, unsupported by fact. It’s all relative – the list of Trump’s negative qualities isn’t even remotely comparable. The main positive is that she would have kept Trump out of the White House. To me, as a non-American, Hillary would have been significantly less risky for Planet Earth (e.g. in terms of conflict and the climate).

    Would I have expressed concern that she, um, might use another private email server? Probably not, I doubt she would have. Could the examples of her using poor judgement in general mean that she might use poor judgement as POTUS? Sure, that’s probably indisputable. But again, this is a false equivalence. I highly doubt her poor judgement could hold a candle to what Trump has done in his life and actively promised/threatened during his campaign (hey you never have to pay for anything, just say you didn’t like it – I would have thought that attitide was the very opposite of personal responsibility, and morality).

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  71. Iconoclast

    Just as I thought.  You minimize her failings while ragging on me for minimizing Trump’s.  You believe Trump is objectively worse than Hillary.  You are unconcerned about the email server and what it actually represents (compromised US security, which you obviously don’t give a fuck about — to you, it’s just a server).

    Trump said a lot of shit, but gays and women and minorities and Obama voters voted for him anyway.  Trump said that shit to rile people like you, and it obviously worked.  Because riling people like you fires up people who are sick of Obama/Hillary.  I have read articles attempting to explain the abject fear that the losers are feeling right now, and it makes sense to me.  You are just part of that dynamic.

    Obama didn’t halt the rise of the oceans, and Trump won’t accelerate it.  Much of the shit he said is not doable.  Kill the families of terrorists?  Not likely.  Build a wall and get Mexico to pay for it? Maybe, maybe not. Deport millions of illegals?  Well, his plan is to target illegals with a criminal record first.  The rest?  TBD.

    But you can’t get past his over-the-top rhetoric.  And Hillary supporters ARE doing real damage out there, but that doesn’t matter to you because Hillary.  Even if she did vote foe the Iraq war.  Because Not Trump.

    So please quit pretending you’re better than those who voted for Trump.  Save your dire predictions about the Earth melting and WWIII starting for your own mental masturbation blog.

     

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  72. CM

    We have endured 8 years of Obama and his oppressive policies. 

    Are you speaking as a wealthy, hetero, old, religious white guy, or on behalf of everyone? Are you speaking on behalf of gay people, or people who didn’t have health insurance? Those who lost their job because of the GFC but then had one?

    People besides myself decided enough was enough. 

    Well as more people voted for Hillary it actually came down to Trump getting slightly more votes than Romney in some specific states, and Hillary getting less than Obama in those same states because she failed to make her case to the point where they didn’t show at the polls.

    Wisconsin – Obama 1.6m (Hillary down to 1.3m), Romney 1.4m (Trump same at 1.4m); Michigan – O 2.5m (H down to 2.2m), R 2.1m (T up to 2.2m); Ohio – O 2.8m (H down to 2.3m), R 2.6m (T up to 2.7m); Penn – O 2.9m (H down to 2.8m), R 2.6m (T up to 2.9m). 

    Also, you would have voted for whoever the Republican candidate was, just like you did last time, and the time before. Obama/Hillary – you could replace those names with some made up ones and the result would be the same. So in reality ‘enough is enough’ isn’t really the case.

    I articulated why I was in favor of Trump — it was that teeny tiny glimmer of hope for good SCOTUS appointments. 

    Yep, I know why you were voting for Trump. But getting “it” surely refers to understanding why he won in general terms. In reality of course, he won because of the Electoral College and everything else is under that heading (including why that happened, as outlined above).

    Other than that, I conceded that he was a vile person, but that Hillary was just as bad if not worse.

    Yeah see we had month and months and months of Trump’s vileness being in clear evidence because it came out of his mouth directly (not to mention his previous history of vileness, including with women), but most of Clinton’s supposed ‘equal or worse’ personal vileness required narratives, ideology, and outright derangement (SHE’S A MURDERER!).

    Gays voted for Trump.  So did women, and minorities.  So did millennials, and former Obama voters.

    Sure, partisanship is one hell of a drug. A guy was on the radio in this weekend talking about studies that have proven that people will favour people like them (men, or minorities, or gays) until a party is attached to the options, and then they’ll almost always go with the party candidate even if it’s not the initial one. So that’s certainly one aspect to it. It’s also extremely relevant that the Dems chances are hurt in areas where women, gays, minorities are under-represented. This is something they’ll have to deal with. America is getting more diverse and socially progressive (the left has certainly won that war) on the whole, but concentrations of like-minded people are increasing. Under the EV system it doesn’t matter if their candidate wins every single vote in California – a non-college educated unemployed 20 year old in a less-populous has a vote that is worth many of theirs.

    But again, Clinton actually got significantly more support than Trump. The national polls showed her ahead by about 3-4% and she’ll end up ahead by about 1.7% or so, it seems. So within what would be expected with a normal polling error.

    So I’m not sure why you’re on such a rag, CM.

    Well today I’m mostly procrastinating at work.

    I’ll be marxdamned if I let you try and take that away from me or anyone else who is relieved that the Obama/Clinton nightmare has ended.

    I can’t take anything away from you, even if I wanted to.

    Nightmare – yeah, as I say, your hyperbole probably doesn’t extend beyond your specific cohort. Which is possibly why Obama’s favourability rating is so high.

    Yes, a Trump nightmare may begin.  Well, for loser like you, it already has. 

    Loser? You’re adopting his language now?

    Again, I’m not an American and don’t live there, so although I have legitimate concerns about his impact beyond America, I’m not actually affected at all by the internal stuff. So I guess I’m a semi-loser. Or, perhaps more accurately I AM a loser because the whole world is. Certainly his appointment of a science-denier is a potentially serious problem for generations to come (although I know you don’t care about that because even if the science is accepted you don’t think future generations have any right to impede us today, or some such thinking).

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  73. CM

    You are unconcerned about the email server and what it actually represents (compromised US security, which you obviously don’t give a fuck about — to you, it’s just a server).

    I understand it. It was definitely stupid, for that very reason.

    By that measure you are unconcerned about the clear interference in the election by the Russian Government, who it seems was also in contact with the Trump campaign. Does that, and his Russian financial ties, not concern you? Does these matters not relate strongly to US security? Putin has made a laughing stock of your democracy and played you for fools.

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  74. Iconoclast

    Right.  Of course.  If we didn’t vote Hillary, we’re fools.  Why didn’t I think of that?  Brilliant!

    Obviously, you’ve simply gone off the deep end.

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  75. Iconoclast

    Sure, partisanship is one hell of a drug.

    Wow.  Just….wow.

     …it doesn’t matter if their candidate wins every single vote in California – a non-college educated unemployed 20 year old in a less-populous has a vote that is worth many of theirs.

    The Electoral College prevents California and New York (the two most populous states) from potentially deciding every national election. It allows the other 48 States to have a voice.  And those States spoke.  Loudly.

    The only reason H won the popular vote is because California.  Which illustrates why it’s meaningless.

    But yeah, we’re still fools.  We are only wise when a Donk is in the White House.

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  76. Iconoclast

    Bottom line:  As long as you persist in using terms like “supremacist” and “science-denier”, you are part of the problem, and part of the reason someone like Trump got elected in the first place.

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  77. CM

    If we didn’t vote Hillary, we’re fools. 

    No, if you’re not concerned about it then you are.

    Wow.  Just….wow.

    I know, research is so….liberal.

    It allows the other 48 States to have a voice. 

    Absolutely. I think it’s probably the right system for that reason.

    As long as you persist in using terms like “supremacist” and “science-denier”, you are part of the problem

    So what are your thoughts on Bannon and his appointment? Would you prefer ‘white nationalist’?

    Trump said climate change was created “by and for the Chinese in order to make U.S. manufacturing non-competitive. And that “our planet is freezing”. Myron Ebell, who isn’t a scientist, thinks the vast majority of scientists believe that the case for climate change is silly.

    So ‘denial’ is accurate.

     

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  78. Iconoclast

    So what are your thoughts on Bannon and his appointment? Would you prefer ‘white nationalist’?

    I would prefer “nationalist” — leave the race-baiting out of it.

     

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