VP Debate

Just a quick few thoughts, again.

The VP debate rarely matters in an election. And I guess that’s good if you’re a Clinton supporter because Pence beat the crap out of Kaine. Kaine was constantly interrupting, frequently off-topic, vague with details and awkward in his transparent one-liners. By contrast, Pence was focused and prepared. I disagreed with him plenty, but I ended the night with a good impression of where he stands on the issues. I have no idea what Tim Kaine thinks about anything other than, “Donald Trump sucks.”

It was also a good reminder of what the GOP gave up when they nominated Trump. The election is still close — Clinton has surged in the last week but there’s still five weeks left; plenty of time for Trump to come back and win. However, the Pence debate made it really clear that any normal Republican would be crushing this. The only time Pence ever floundered was having to defend Trump: Trump’s statements, Trump’s positions, Trump’s “foundation”, Trump’s businesses. On these, he mainly resorted to “who is this Donald Trump person of whom you speak?” When he was talking about generic GOP policy or about Clinton, it was simply no contest.

I’m also told there was a moderator, but it was hard to tell. Someone seemed to keep asking pointless questions.

Comments are closed.

  1. CM

    Couldn’t disagree more Hal, Kaine cleaned his clock. Pence had to deny the reality that is Trump, again and again. Mostly via his eyebrows and head shaking. Kaine was specific and articulated well whereas Pence was vague are rarely on subject. Pence was asked to do the impossible and inevitably couldn’t do it. He probably did about as good as he could with the hands he was dealt.

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  2. Hal_10000 *

    I think someone on twitter put it best when they said Pence did a great job articulating Clinton’s foreign policy.  Almost everything he said was in contradiction to what Trump has been saying for months.

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  3. ilovecress

    My take…. In pure terms of the debate, I think Pence was more impressive. I hear what you’re saying CM, but I’d count that as a win for Pence. Trump was clearly the third person in the debate, and Pence handled that well. Kaine on the other hand didn’t actually make any points that would really stick – or rather he didn’t quite get there. There were a few moments where he could have, and he fluffed it (for example, on the tax returns, Pence seemed to imply that he’d seen Trumps tax returns – Kaine should have nailed him on that issue. If he denied it, then he should have nailed him on why Pence had to show his returns, but Trump couldn’t. but he fluffed it.)

    So in pure debate terms I’d call it a win for Pence based on his effective defence. but, I’d imagine that this won’t change anyones minds, and as they’re behind, the result of this debate is basically a win for Clinton/Kaine.

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  4. CM

    I guess if ‘doing the best you can do with a hopeless case’ can be viewed as a ‘win’. Sounds like most people/pundits etc think Pence won.

    When you say ‘handled well’ do you mean the way he just outright denied (i.e. lied) about what Trump has said, or simply ignored it entirely (thereby refusing to endorse what Trump had said on many issues)? Trump was tweeting like a tween at the very same time that Pence is talking about strong leadership….

    How would Kaine have nailed Pence on seeing the tax returns? He did repeat it back to him so he could confirm or clarify and Pence, like he did time and time again, just shook his head and furrowed his eyebrows as a response. I think that said it all, time and time again. Pence had nothing.

    Yep, agree, it’s meaningless in terms of an impact on the election.

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  5. Iconoclast

    Hmm, at this point, I’m not certain whether CM is merely suffering from TDS or simply has a man-crush on The Donald……

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  6. Iconoclast

    You don’t have to, explicitly.  All ya gotta do is make an absurd statements like, “Kaine cleaned [Pence’s] clock.”  The man-crush/TDS shines right through — the debate wasn’t about The Donald, although you and Kaine clearly wanted it to be.

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  7. CM

    You don’t have to, explicitly.

    Says the ‘words matter’ guy.

    All ya gotta do is make an absurd statements like, “Kaine cleaned [Pence’s] clock.”

    Except I then explained why I thought so.

     The man-crush/TDS shines right through — the debate wasn’t about The Donald, although you and Kaine clearly wanted it to be.

    The debate was about the two tickets. The only real matter of interest in the debate was about how Pence was going to deal with being on the ticket with Trump.

    I’m not sure Trump leaves any room for TDS. So much of what he says is the kind of stuff someone suffering from TDS would otherwise say.

    But sure, proceed with your fantasies. Whatever gets you through this difficult time.

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  8. ilovecress

    The debate was about the two tickets. The only real matter of interest in the debate was about how Pence was going to deal with being on the ticket with Trump.

    yep – and he did fine. He avoided the potential pitfalls. The first rule of a Veep is to ‘do no harm’ and that was obviously his strategy.

    How would Kaine have nailed Pence on seeing the tax returns? 

    By switching the issue from the fact that Trump hasn’t released the returns to the fact that Trump is being secretive about it.  Move it from dry tax issues to a question of character. Like I said, he went near there, but didn’t land anything. He let Pence get away with avoiding the question by not actually asking a question.

    “Did Donald Trump explain to you why he could see your tax returns, but you weren’t able to see his?”

    “Why did you release your tax returns Governor Pence? Is this a disagreement between you and Mr Trump?”

    “I’m curious Governor Pence – why do you think that Donald Trump is keeping his tax returns a secret? Has he given you a reason?”

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  9. Iconoclast

    Says the ‘words matter’ guy.

    Non sequitur — words and phrases have implications in addition to explicit meanings.  Deal with it.

    Except I then explained why I thought so.

    Said explanation simply proving my point.

    The only real matter of interest TO ME in the debate was about how Pence was going to deal with being on the ticket with Trump.

    Fixed it for you.  Try to realize that others exist in the world, not just you.

    But sure, proceed with your fantasies. 

    The “fantasies” you prove to be realities…….

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  10. Iconoclast

    Trump, Taxes and Liberal Hypocrisy

    Trump does pay taxes — a lot of them. He pays payroll taxes, property taxes, excise taxes, sales taxes, local taxes and whatever fees imposed by the various states in which he does business. And as for his claim that he’s undergoing an audit and therefore does not want to release returns? The explanation is simple, if not clear to people who don’t run a complicated business.

    Trump and the IRS are very likely in disagreement over how much he owes and how the tax code should be interpreted to come up with the correct amount. Trump, who says he gets audited every year, probably has these disagreements every year. If he were to disclose his returns, and the public became aware of the amount the IRS says he owes versus the amount he thinks he does, the IRS will be publicly shamed into digging in its heels, refusing to negotiate lest they be perceived as caving in to a rich guy. In short, Trump would lose his leverage and very likely millions of dollars in taxes. What sane person does that?

    Not that it matters to the reigning experts here.

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  11. CM

    Non sequitur — words and phrases have implications in addition to explicit meanings.  Deal with it.

    Yeah except you like to have it both ways depending on the circumstances. You’re regularly extrapolating from what I’ve written to suit your own purposes.

    Not that it matters to the reigning experts here.

    I assume you’re not including me in that as I’ve said nothing about his taxes. But then again, words and phrases have implications in addition to explicit meanings so someone could assume so.

     

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  12. CM

    Yeah except you like to have it both ways depending on the circumstances. You’re regularly extrapolating from what I’ve written to suit your own purposes…….but when I respond to something you’ve implied you get your panties all in a bunch and argue ‘words matter’.

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  13. CM

    All banter aside, I agree that Trump was fully entitled to use the laws as they applied to his situation. I don’t actually have a problem with that, so long as it was the case. The problem is one of perception and moral obligation given that he’s now running for President (and I agree that there are many politicians on the left that have similar problems – if you owe a whole lot of tax, you shouldn’t be talking publicly about tax, period). The argument put forward in your quote/link might be right, but it also might be about something else. We just don’t know, and isn’t that the main issue? The argument that releasing tax returns provides transparency about who you might owe money too would seem to be a good one. Surely it’s better for people to know?

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  14. Iconoclast

    The argument that releasing tax returns provides transparency about who you might owe money too would seem to be a good one. Surely it’s better for people to know?

    Nobody seems to give a damn when it’s a Democrat or a liberal. Allegedly, Al Sharpton owes the IRS a few million in taxes, and nobody cares.  Of course, he ain’t running for office, but he does seem to get invited to the White House often enough…..

    At some point, I believe The Donald quipped that, unlike Hillary’s emails, the contents of his tax returns wouldn’t send him to prison. Frankly, I’m not convinced that any politician’s or celebrity’s tax returns are anyone’s damned business.  And I have no reason not to believe the explanation I quoted.  It does make sense, leftist paranoia notwithstanding.

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  15. CM

    At some point, I believe The Donald quipped that, unlike Hillary’s emails, the contents of his tax returns wouldn’t send him to prison.

    We’d have to take his word on that. And he’s made damn sure his word is close to worthless (Pence argued as much in the one time he did vaguely address his support for all the nonsense that has come out of Trump’s mouth).

    Nope, I just think it’s cute.

    The man-crush/CMDS shines right through

     

     

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  16. AlexInCT

    We’d have to take his word on that. 

    Why? Did you just say the IRS was to incompetent or in cahoots with him, which is why he got off? Neither claim bodes well for the IRS. In the case of Hillary there is no doubt that justice was not only subverted, but that the orders to do this came from the WH, because it’s current occupant would have gone down in flames with her.

    Basically, democrats that used to talk down to everyone about Nixon, not only one-upped him, but actually committed crimes Nixon couldn’t even have dreamed of actually trying. That they are getting away with it, and getting people like CM defend them out of nothing but ideological circle-jerkery, is a warning to us all of how bad things are soon to become.

    You think rewarding criminals that have constantly broken the law with more power and the ability to go after their enemies ever ends well? Yeah, sure you marxist cunts might think that since she plays for your team you are safe from her insane and dangerous wrath, but that isn’t how it will play out. Ever.

    Have fun with the dark times coming. Hope you all can enjoy indentured servitude, because that is where your kind is leading the globe to: a two class system, with the real 1%ers running the show, and the rest of us slaves to them and beholden to the legal system that was supposed to make us all equal, but which they are above.

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  17. Iconoclast

    We’d have to take his word on that. And he’s made damn sure his word is close to worthless….

    You do realize that this applies equally, if not more so, to Hillary, yes?  It’s pretty much common knowledge that the Clintons lie even when the truth would serve them better — it’s just their nature.

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