Some facts about police shootings

Here’s some hard data from 2015:
 
50% of all fatal shootings by police were white victims. 26% were black. However, statistics are a funny thing, and context often matters in social statistics.
 
When you adjust for demographics vs. geography, cops shoot and kill black suspects at a rate of 3 to 1 in urban neighborhoods with a predominantly black population. Furthermore, while black men make up 6% of the US population, they make up 40% of fatal police shootings. Most of them, regardless of race, were armed. 4% of the fatal shootings of black men by police involved an unarmed victim. 25% of the fatalities demonstrated clear signs of or had a history of mental illness. Suspects are OVERWHELMINGLY male.If you want, you can adjust for crime statistics but it doesn’t clarify anything. Black people make up 28% of all crime where an arrest was made. The specific number isn’t available at that link, but you have to assume some of those were women. If you remove them entirely, the fact that black men still account for 40% of fatal police shootings really jumps out as a problem.

 
If you are using these statistics to try to make an argument and someone else is using them to oppose you, it’s possible that you are both right and/or both wrong, depending on how you are using the numbers.
 
You can run all sorts of analysis on the 2015 data here. This list is probably the most complete set of data available for 2015, although it may not be perfectly inclusive. You don’t need anyone’s interpretation. You can just look at the facts for yourself. There is a problem with cops shooting black men at a disproportionate rate, and admitting that fact should transcend social and political lines.The real question is how do we make make everyone safer by de-escalating the current tensions? I personally think cameras are a great start. Everyone should film everything, and that includes police with body cams. Let’s keep everything on the record, all the time.

Comments are closed.

  1. AlexInCT

    While I certainly don’t want to come across as uncaring here, I do have to point out that the response tp these incidents, which are being fomented by the agitators in the democratic party, have conveniently made everyone forget about the FBI letting a crook off because she is one of our areistocracy and above the law that this very administration has used to punish the peasants.

    Know what I am saying?

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  2. richtaylor365

    Wow, Jim, considering what just went down in Dallas, Missouri , and Georgia, your timing on this post is absolutely horrible. I also disagree with your premise.

    You can just look at the facts for yourself

    Here are some facts you left out;

    The Bureau Of Justice Statistics gathering data in the 75 largest cities in the country, blacks commit 62% or all robberies, 57% of all murders, and 45% of all assaults, despite the fact that blacks comprise about 15 % of the population in those cities. In NYC its worse, 75% of all shootings, 77% of the robberies and 66% of all violent crime. Since the police just can’t run away or ignore these crimes, they must act and most these arrests are “without incident”. But because they are predominantly in black neighborhoods, dealing with violent criminals sometimes involves lethal force.

    Black and Hispanic officers are more likely to use deadly force against blacks then white officers.

    Young black males were 9 times more likely to commit murders than similarly aged white males.

    There isa problem with cops shooting black men at a disproportionate rate

    I’ll let Ben Shapiro answer that one.

    The real question is how do we make make everyone safer by de-escalating the current tensions? 

    A good start would be to stop spreading the lies perpetrated by BLM, they have an agenda which does not involve truth. Take a hard look at the crime stats in our largest cities since they have been spreading their nonsense. The “Ferguson Effect” has resulted in a huge spike in homicides, cops are hesitant to go into the inner cities and do real police work for fear of being called racists.

    What would also help is for people like Obama and that idiot Minnesota Governor to wait before the facts come in before shooting from the hip. Investigate all police shootings, if the officer is found negligent then punish him. If he is found to have acted criminally, send him to prison. But give him a fair trial, as we have been witnessing in Baltimore, out of control racist prosecutors have been known to mollify mobs with bogus criminal charges.

    As far as that Minn. shooting, I wanted to wait until some actual facts trickled in before getting a rope.  Looks like another BLM false narrative in the making.

     

     

     

     

     

     

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  3. Hal_10000

    Young black males were 9 times more likely to commit murders than similarly aged white males.

    Well, this is bullshit right here. I looked through the post and that number is pulled out of whole cloth.  In 2013, according to the FBI:

    Black offenders killed 2698 people, white offenders 2755.  With blacks as 15% of the population, that means they are three times as likely to commit murder. and 30 times as likely to be killed by police.  To get 9 times, he basically assign all uncategorized murders to blacks, which is … a stretch.  And even then, he still get blacks killed at rate out of proportion to their criminality.

    It’s not clear if a Ferguson effect exists and if it does, what precisely is causing it. You want people to quite repeating BLM “lies”?  Quit repeating Police Union lies.

    What do the shootings have to do with whether there is racial bias in policing? You can be against violence against cops ANDA against violence against black people. These are not exclusive points of view.

    (And you’ll forgive me if I wait until a more reputable source makes this claims about the Castile case.  Right now, every blog is pointing to the exact same source.)

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  4. richtaylor365

    It’s not clear if a Ferguson effect exists and if it does

    It is perfectly clear to anyone that has actually listened to the numerous police chiefs that have spoken on this matter, many have. The Dallas chief mentioned it the other night in his press conference, but you have your finger on the pulse of police sentiment and know better what his officers think and feel than he does. You have been a BLM shill from the get go, don’t ask me why.

    What do the shootings have to do with whether there is racial bias in policing?

    Did I say they had anything to do with it? I  said the timing stinks, just an observation. And given that the Dallas shooter referenced BLM in his negotiations with the cops, your shilling is doubly offensive.

    And you’ll forgive me if I wait until a more reputable source makes this claims about the Castile case.

    Yeah, you are willing to swallow an accomplice’s Facebook video as gospel, but when further facts come to light discrediting said video, now you want show some restraint, typical.

     

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  5. Hal_10000

     an accomplice’s

    So guilty as suspected, I see. Even thought the robber doesn’t actually look very much like Castile (check the beard).  Yeah, I’ll definitely take the word of a backwater blog over an eye witness.  If and when this is confirmed by the PD, I’ll take it seriously.  And I specifically said in my post that these were her claims and that more information needs to come out.  But because I didn’t go digging around until I found a blog that would back up my biases, I’m a BLM shill.  Gotchya.

    That blog makes several mistakes in their analysis, e.g. misinterpreting where his gun was and saying he didn’t have a permit, which KARE says he did. And keep in mind, both parties may be truthful here. The PD may have pulled him over as a robbery suspect. And they may have told him at first that it was for a tail light. These are not mutually exclusive realities. But no, we have to immediately proclaim a woman grieving her dead boyfriend as a liar.

    If true, it would indicate why the cop was on edge. But here is Minnesota gun right advocate Joe Olson detailing the dangerous and faulty police practices in the Minnesota suburb where Castile was killed. As I said in my initial post, even if the shooting was justified (and I have a feeling it will be declared so), the decisions before the shooting happened need to be looked at carefully.

    Even if he were a robbery suspect, even if were a robber, those are not death sentences.  And police in this country give out a thousand death sentences a year.  Are NONE of those a problem?  Are ALL of those justified? Does race play NO factor in this? Can we not at least question the tactics and philosophy that results in so much carnage?  Apparently not without being a BLM shill.

    You have been a BLM shill from the get go, don’t ask me why.

    I have been sympathetic to some of the points they are making because some of the points they are making are perfectly valid. I didn’t think so for a long time because my interactions with police have always been good. But I’ve talked to too many black people who have experienced this kind of BS to no longer take it seriously.

    And I refuse to denounce a group as a terrorist organization just because of conservative dipshits tell me to.  BLM came out with a list of reform several months ago that were actually sensible doable things. I find this more useful than the shoot-em-all-let-God-sort-em-out approach.

    You’ve been a police union shill from the get-go.  Don’t ask me why.

    And given that the Dallas shooter referenced BLM in his negotiations with the cops, your shilling is doubly offensive.

    Yes and the Dallas PD also said he had no association with any groups.  But this is how it works now?  If a terrorist or murdered advocates a political view, that discredits that view? Does the OKC bombing discredit anyone who thought thought Waco was a disaster? Did the guy who flew the plane into the IRS building discredit all tax reformers? Does someone who makes death threats against the President or jump the wall at the White House discredit Obama critics?

    Every day you sound more and more like the flip side of a liberal. You will grasp onto anything to tar your political opponents.  The demonstrations in Dallas were peaceful.  Cops and protesters were posing together.  To hell with desperate attempt to slag people you disagree with a “shills” and extremists.  Why don’t you just go liberal and hang out with people who revel in that kind of thinking?

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  6. AlexInCT

    It’s not clear if a Ferguson effect exists and if it does

    That made me laugh hard, Hal. And you keep pretending you are not a liberal making like he is something else? The only people denying this are the people that want to protect the left’s narrative.

    I am one of the people here with likely the least amount of trust for the police or the legal system. I have ran into too many people that were just goons with a badge and delusions of grandeur to think all cops are good people. And I firmly believe our legal system is corrupted and broken, primarily because of the left’s agenda to politicize it and turn it into a weapon of the massive government leviathan they have created.

    But that having been said, I hold even less respect for people that pretend the left has not done everything in its power to turn people, and especially the various minority groups they take for granted come voting time, against each other. This attack was actually exactly what the left pretended would come from an angry right they warned us to believe was far likely to commit this sort of crime than their pet Islamists. DHS even put out orders to watch any American group that pointed out how this administration was fucking up everything – that fundamental change they promised us – and to consider them enemies of the states. The Tea Party members, angry that our credentialed elite scumbag political class was no longer even bothering to pretend they wanted office to help instead of to just rip us off, was accused of being violent and ready to commit murder because of their racist views (obviously being pissed at a communist scumbag and his administration can only come from being a racist!).

    Personally I can care less if supporters of the left are eating each other up and will not lose a second of sleep when one gangbanger kills another. But time after time, whenever we see someone commit something horrible – and I am not talking about people making up shit and it being carried by the media because it fits the narrative, only to never be corrected after the facts come out – like this despicable crime, the scumbag is a leftist and encouraged to do this shit by their rhetoric and political manipulations (he wanted to kill white people!).

    While the LSM has done its best not to report on it on a national stage because it would obviously hurt Obama, Hillary, and democrats in general, there are massive amounts of local coverage of how horrible things have gotten. Go look at what is going on in Baltimore, Chicago, Washington DC, Detroit, and many other such cesspits dominated by leftist politics, and you will see a clear pattern of things breaking down and the fact that horrible crimes are being committed by the very people that the left has been whipping into an angry frenzy, being ignored. Dallas was one of these other places, and the only reason this story made the front page for more than a day is that it was just too gruesome to hide and the media and left have been desperate for something to take the focus of the fact that our legal system is corrupt and broken because if it was otherwise, Hillary would be behind bars by now.

    Things are breaking down, and breaking down fast, and it is because we have the most inept, corrupt, and craven political class I can remember in my lifetime, willing to do and say anything in order to play the sheep against each other to guarantee their hold on power, purposefully doing things that are causing it all to come apart. Anyone defending this or pretending that it is business as usual is either a fucking idiot or actually a partisan hack leftard that figures somehow we can open up Pandora’s box, and then at some later point, put it all back in there when the left no longer needs to have us all divided and broken. Don’t worry, because then they will give the police carte blanche to kill their enemies if they don’t willingly go to the reeducation camps.

    If you doubt that this shit is orchestrated, just look at the fact that nobody in the LSM or in the lefty political class has come out to condemn the fucking entities that actually are now not only not condemning this horrible act, but making excuses for the scumbag that did this.

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  7. tomchamberlain

    As little offense as possible but this is an insanely stupid conversation.

    First, we are not talking about an epidemic of any kind here.  <a hrev=”http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2015/12/28/3735190/killed-by-police-2015/”>About 1080 people were killed by police in 2015.</a>  A whopping .00000331% of the population.

    As stated above about 26% of those people were black which is about 281 people.   466 people die from falling out of their own bed in a year.  412 drown in their own bathtub.  301 die from summer heat exposure.

    None of this means we shouldn’t look at the problem but lets have some perspective here.  It is easy to make a scary percentage when the number is insanely small (did you know death by faulty toaster is up a shocking 330% in 2015).

    The larger issue (and my second point) is you don’t have enough information to say much of anything on this issue.  How often do black suspects actually pull a gun on police vs white suspects?  How often does the police officer responsible for the shooting have less than 5 years of experience?  How often do white suspects get no jail time vs black suspects?  That’s 3 of probably 200 questions you would need to answer before you could draw any valid conclusions.

    The solution to this problem has always been the same.  We need cameras on cops to accurately document what happens and investigations independent of the police themselves to determine what is actually going on.  Only then can we begin to address what is happening here.

    It’s the first rule of business, until you know what is actually wrong you can’t fix it.

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  8. JimK *

    The solution to this problem has always been the same.  We need cameras on cops to accurately document what happens and investigations independent of the police themselves to determine what is actually going on.  Only then can we begin to address what is happening here.

    100% this. Cameras keep everyone honest, and that is what we need right now. Not a load of conspiracy hooey or blue line of silence shit.

    Cameras. Cameras will benefit police, because criminals lie. They always lie. And cameras will verify the truth.

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  9. Hal_10000

    Agreed on cameras. My wife recently got a ticket and it when the cop said, “I’m recording this stop” we felt a lot safer. One of the things we are waiting for on the Castile case is the lapel or dashcams, which may show whether he did, in fact, go for a gun.

    Tom, even if we accept that these numbers are small, it’s still more than are killed by terrorists and we consider terrorism a major issue. Other countries have even smaller numbers of people killed by cops (as a percent of pop). And it’s not just killings. It’s stops: during stop-and-frisk, the NYC cops stopped more young black men than there were black men. It’s violence: the Chicago PD has now admitted they had a black site where they took suspects to be roughed up. It’s SWAT raids: 80,000+ per year. It’s the slow erosion of our fundamental liberties to be left the hell alone and not be treated as though we are all criminals.

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  10. richtaylor365

     Yeah, I’ll definitely take the word of a backwater blog over an eye witness.

    You are free to believe whoever you want, you no doubt thought Dorian Johnson was straight up when he said Michael Brown had his hands up and was surrendering to Officer Wilson when Wilson killed him for no good reason.

     I’m a BLM shill

    Yes, you are. You are sympathetic to their cause but you ignore their tactics. Go to youtube and in 5 seconds you can find a dozen so called BLM spokes people, all reading from the same script, cops are racists and they are murdering young black men for no good reason , just because they are black. Their incendiary rhetoric and demonization of law enforcement is the exact anti thesis of what MLK preached, and leads to more violence, as witnessed by what happened in Dallas.

    When the shooters at Ft. Hood, San Bernardino, Orlando, Paris, when they all yell “Allahu  Akbar” before their murdering rampage, are you really puzzled about what their motivations are? The Dallas shooter specifically referenced BLM, he mentioned his anger at the 2 shooting incidents involving the police and black men, he said he hated white people and was specifically targeting white officers, is it really a stretch to connect the dots of BLM’s false narratives (hands up don’t shoot, the police are all out to murder innocent black folks) fomenting actual violence towards police in response to these narratives?

    I didn’t comment on your other post about this shooting because I don’t know what happened, and neither do you. Ms. Reynolds’ account did not pass the smell test for me. Did Castile reach for his gun? It seemed highly unlikely to me that the officer would put 4 bullets in him just for reaching for his wallet, so no, I don’t believe Reynolds. But what makes it really difficult for me on this shooting and the Sterling shooting is that right off the bat I spotted 3 or 4 tactical mistakes the officers made, mistakes that will make culpable to some degree (acting out of departmental policy) even if charges are not filed against them.

    You’ve been a police union shill from the get-go.  Don’t ask me why.

    Now you are just being silly. I’m too lazy to go back and reference all the posts (probably half a dozen) I’ve written condemning unions, this goes for police unions. For you to go there is doubly lazy on your part. I have hammered police unions in the past and I’ve been a strict advocate for throwing the book at anyone in power that holds a public office (police included) that broaches that sacred trust.

    Every day you sound more and more like the flip side of a liberal

    I would hope so, the guy that started this blog was “the flip side of a liberal”, hence the name. But I know what you mean, you can get all squishy over the antics of SJW’s and rationalize it by saying ,”Well, their hearts are in the right place, they mean well, their cause is just even if their actions are unsavory”, bullshit. They don’t get to do bad things just because they think thyey have a moral calling, no matter how badly you sympathize with their cause.

     

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  11. InsipiD

    There’s an overall problem with people being shot by the police in this country.  Making it into a black issue is a problem because it ignores the real problem and turns it into something that it might be tempting to marginalize.  Over the last few years, police departments in the US have been gifted large amounts of retired military hardware that it’s not always appropriate for them to have.  By stepping up their equipment, it’s tempting to use it.  When all you have are hammers, every problem starts looking like a nail.  This coupled with years of reverence toward the police in the wake of 9/11, and suddenly the police have become an elite group that trample on individuals’ rights as a part of modern security theater.  Cops aren’t used to being questioned, and never admit wrongdoing when they are.  They pursue suspects in high-speed chases and tend to overreact to the situations that adrenaline brings them into like this.  I might add that they shoot way too many dogs, too.  We have a problem, and that problem is that cops are trigger happy overall.  The fact that a lot of their victims happen to be black can be explained with statistics, but none of that is an excuse for what’s happening.  Instead of shrinking the problem by pretending that only black people are unjustly mistreated by the police, we need to take a look at how the situations are escalated period.

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  12. AlexInCT

    One more comment. Ain’t it funny how this sort of shit seems to always happen in an election year when democrats are worried about turnout, but especially black turn out? Remember that we are dealing with the same people that were behind the Gun Walking, the IRS, Benghazi, and so many other scandals that basically had this administration more concerned with keeping their hold on power at all costs, and something like this sure as hell looks to be again more of the same.

    Obama meant it when he told us his gang would not let any crisis go by without using it to their advantage, so at a minimum, what we have is them doing a “Weekend at Bernies” with every tragedy that happens. BLM is exactly what the left accuses the KKK or the Tea Party of being, and that is not by accident. The left’s biggest arrow in their quiver, well second biggest, as their biggest one is hypocrisy, has always been projection. This is all more of the same divide and conquer shit they live by, and they care not who dies as long as this can help them motivate a dispirited base – including felons and the dead – to make it to the polls.

    We can keep pretending the issue is race or police abuse, but then we are not talking about the real problem and basically will be run around like sheep. I am telling you that the Clintons are loving this, because the abuse of power being perpetrated to keep Hillary in the game sure has dropped from the news cycle.

    Do we need changes to make sure police abuse their power less? Absolutely! As others have mentioned, police cameras can go a long way to protecting both the police and the people. But I believe we need to change our media and our political class, with far more urgency than we do the militarization of the police, because they are destroying this once great nation.

    Practically every single problem we have happening now is the fundamental transformation they promised us. Keep that in mind as you hear these scumbags say shit like this that defies logic and reason after every fucking tragedy of their making, just because it doesn’t fit their narrative.

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  13. Hal_10000

    Rich, that blog has already been shown to have lied about Castile’s gun permit. Their other statements are conjecture at best.  Reynolds has yet to be shown lying about anything.  If she is shown to be lying, I’ll write about it.

    Agreed on tactical errors.  This is precisely the point Balko makes (and Olson also made).  We are not training cops in de-escalation techniques.  We are training in techniques that escalate danger and put suspects AND COPS in greater danger.

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  14. richtaylor365

    Rich, that blog has already been shown to have lied about Castile’s gun permit. Their other statements are conjecture at best

    If you noticed, I did not reference the blog in my last comment, I found it dubious and of little value, except the fact that it did provide another reason for the traffic stop, the BOLO for the robbery suspect.

    As far as Reynolds’ veracity, sure, she might be telling the truth but let me ask you something, didn’t you find it odd and extremely creepy that as her boyfriend is dying right in front of her, she can’t be bothered attending to him, she totally ignores him as he takes his last breath because she is too busy with her video stream? Besides, although her testimony is of some value,  her relationship with the deceased makes it’s probitive value limited. An independent third party witness would lend much greater credibility.

    We are training in techniques that escalate danger and put suspects AND COPS in greater danger

    I would submit that what we are witnessing here, Baton Rogue and in most of the other cop shootings is NOT an adherence to their training, is just the opposite, their actions are outside of policy. That is why most  not involved cops that watch these videos can spot numerous tactical mistakes that got that officer in trouble in the first place, I spotted them immediately.

     

     

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  15. tomchamberlain

    Tom, even if we accept that these numbers are small, it’s still more than are killed by terrorists and we consider terrorism a major issue. Other countries have even smaller numbers of people killed by cops (as a percent of pop). And it’s not just killings. It’s stops: during stop-and-frisk, the NYC cops stopped more young black men than there were black men. It’s violence: the Chicago PD has now admitted they had a black site where they took suspects to be roughed up. It’s SWAT raids: 80,000+ per year. It’s the slow erosion of our fundamental liberties to be left the hell alone and not be treated as though we are all criminals.

    I don’t see how this is an erosion of our liberties at all.  Saying that implies an official policy to harass black people more than others.  I don’t see that in any of these cases

    I’m not going to address the Chicago black site because denying someone an attorney, beating them, and making no record of an arrest are already things that are illegal.  It is bad that they are happening but you can’t really bring those things up in a policy discussion.  Policy discussions are designed to determine the best law to create and the above acts are already against existing law.   So the Chicago issue is one of enforcing existing law.

    As for your other examples those are all based on individual officer judgment and I don’t see a way around that.  Even stop and frisk, a terrible policy, is not inherently racist.  The issue comes when the police enforcing it are overly suspicious of black people.  But short of setting a ratio you can’t prevent that.  And even setting a ratio would only get more white and Asian people harassed to meet a quota.  It wouldn’t stop the cops from harassing black people they find suspicious.

    I’ll be the first to admit I don’t know everything and there might be some magic policy that allows cops to enforce the law without using their personal judgment but I can’t think of one.

    Which brings me back to my original point.  This is not a huge epidemic.  The numbers are relatively small.  So there is no rush to make massive changes.  Cameras on cops and independent investigators could weed out the more racist police officers over time and that will make things better.

    But right now the problem is the media using these relatively rare incidents to make this issue seem like an emergency.  I mean, Beyonce is quoted as saying “It is up to us to take a stand and demand that they ‘stop killing us.”  That makes it sound like some kind of genocide is going on and that type of talk is what gets an already unstable man worked up enough to murder police officers.

     

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  16. CM

    Ah so now people with authority need to be careful what they say. Strange how that responsibilty didn’t apply when it came to politicians and others with influence spreading lies and hate about Planned Parenthood.

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  17. Hal_10000

    To clarify something: I don’t think cops are running around looking for black people to shoot or shooting people because they are black.  And the people saying so are making the problem worse.

    I think we are seeing a combination of decades of militarized policing, poor training, pseudo-tactical bullshit.  And when you combine that with a soft racism that views black people with suspicion, this is the result.  We have spent three decades makings cops jumpy and trigger prone.  That comes out against everyone but especially against black people. Rich, you noted tactical mistakes. But these tactical mistakes are happening constantly because of the emphasis on aggressive tactics instead of solid policing. We have constantly seen such incidents be investigated and the authorities conclude that the cops did nothing wrong (e.g., Habersham County, where the cops fried a toddler with a flash-bang grenade or shot a minister to death and were exonerated; Radley Balko’s recent series on South Carolina, where investigators just took the cops’ version of events and reported that as gospel). This IS policing now.

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  18. AlexInCT

    Ah so now people with authority need to be careful what they say. Strange how that responsibilty didn’t apply when it came to politicians and others with influence spreading lies and hate about Planned Parenthood.

    I know I should just stay away from engaging stupid, but I guess I just can’t help calling an idiot an idiot. What lies were told? Correct me if I am wrong, but the whole reason this organization exists is to kill fetuses before they are born. And because some people feel tax payers should foot that bill whether they like it or not and were basically not funneling enough tax payer cash to it enterprising entities in that organization made claims they were selling these parts out for extra cash.

    What followed was a bunch of partisan hacks covering this up and makign the story go away and idiots like you claiming lies where told. The same corrupt fucks that decided Hillary was above the law while others have had their lives ruined under the administration to prosecute more people than all others combined under the espionage act, let PP off the hook, and you claim that the other people are the ones lying? What’s next a few months from now you will accuse those of us that point this travesty of justice the Clintons are involved in of being liars too because a corrupt and dispicable bureaucracy let her off?

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  19. AlexInCT

    To clarify something: I don’t think cops are running around looking for black people to shoot or shooting people because they are black.  And the people saying so are making the problem worse.

    That’s some major understatement of the issue, man. Especially when after the fact that their bullshit incited someone to go shoot cops and specifically do so because he wanted to kill some white people, they tell us they are not sure what the scumbag’s motive was and that the problem again was evil guns. As I have repeatedly pointed out: the only standards the corrupt left has are double standards.

    Remember Palin being accused of somehow inspiring some nut job to go shoot Giffords because of some idiotic campaign logo that had crosshairs in it? You hat to be wearing a tinfoil hat 12 feet tall to make that idiotic connection. But here we are today with every leftard, including the president, saying cops are out to just shoot every person with black skin, and someone actually responds to this by retaliating, and they can’t make the connection?

    Seriously, nobody distrusts cops more than me, but shit, you have to be on some mega-narrative campaign to pretend what is going on now, and all so the left can jazz up black voter turnout for the election, doesn’t sets a new low bar. These condescending fucks should never be allowed near the levers of power considering how easily they condemn innocents to death to advance their own political agenda.

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  20. richtaylor365

    But these tactical mistakes are happening constantly because of the emphasis on aggressive tactics instead of solid policing.

    I would remind you that thousands of arrests are handled daily, 99% (or more) done properly, within departmental policy, and with no injuries to either party, so be very very careful about throwing around loaded words like “constantly”.

    And how do you know what is taught at police academies re: “aggressive tactics”?. There was a cop in South Carolina a few months ago that was caught on video shooting an unarmed fleeing black man in the back, you aren’t really implying that these sort of tactics are taught and sanctioned by the respective department, are you?

    And when you combine that with a soft racism that views black people with suspicion

    What you call “soft racism”, I call statistical reality. When cop A makes a traffic stop on the family truckster in Suburban Town USA, he is probably thinking about the big game as he makes his approach to the driver, OTWH when cop B makes a stop in South Chicago with what looks like a car full of gang bangers, he is on high alert. Racism is not a factor here, statistics have told him that he is more  at risk.

    I know I should just stay away from engaging stupid

    Yep, you know what they say about wrestling with pigs in the mud?

     

     

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  21. AlexInCT

    And when you combine that with a soft racism that views black people with suspicion

    Tell that to the black lady that told me she would cross the road whenever she saw a young black man at night on the road, but would never think of doing the same for any other race. She must have been a racist herself, I guess for actually letting reality overcome the narrative.

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  22. InsipiD

    What followed was a bunch of partisan hacks covering this up and makign the story go away and idiots like you claiming lies where told.

    Just like the people who think that Trump’s supporters are the cause of violence when it breaks out at a Trump rally, and I’ve heard people refer to that with a serious look on their faces.

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  23. ilovecress

    What you call “soft racism”, I call statistical reality

    That’s still racism. That’s assuming something about someone based on their race, rather than their actions. It’s why lady justice wears a blindfold.

    I’m not saying it’s not a natural human reaction, but that’s why cops are meant to be above that shit.

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  24. richtaylor365

    Cress, please explain to me how my scenario I put forth in the above comment meets the definition of racism. And if you are going to give me some squishy answer like ,”Well, they have a different mind set, they are more careful in the second instance than in the first, I would just remind you that all black, Hispanic, and Asian police officers suffer from the exact same racism, square that circle.

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  25. ilovecress

    Because they’re pre-judging the situation, which is the definition of, uh, prejudice. And black, asisan and hispanics can be prejudiced too.

    When acting in the name of the Government, cops (or any Government officials) aren’t supposed to take any ‘statistical realities’ into account when prejudging a situation. This isn’t squidgy-liberal anti racism, it’s about checking Government’s power – something I thought you guys would be all for that?

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  26. richtaylor365

    This isn’t squidgy-liberal anti racism

    Couldn’t have described it better myself, that is exactly what it is.

    Sorry, but your definition fails and I don’t even know what “prejudging the situation” even means. An inclination to be more cautious because statistics say certain situations are more inherently dangerous than others is not being racist.  In my scenario is one treated any different than the other? Is the outcome of the stop different?Are actions displayed by the officer any different?

    And I’m sure the black cop would get a kick out of you calling him racist when he pulls over other blacks, good one.

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  27. Iconoclast

    Because they’re pre-judging the situation…..

    I agree with Rich; this “pre-judge” rhetoric is meaningless.  In both scenarios, the cop is already in the situation, so there’s no ‘pre-” anything.  In both scenarios, the cop is judging the existing situation according to statistical and historical reality.

    Like it or lump it, a car full of gang bangers in a bad neighborhood is inherently more dangerous, statistically speaking, than a guy in a pickup in Picketfenceville.  Sure, the car full of gang bangers could be heading home from church, and the guy in the pickup could yank out a pistol and blow the cop away, but the odds are totally against that.

    Pretending otherwise for the sake of political correctness is sheer lunacy.

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  28. AlexInCT

    That’s still racism.

    Our biggest race problem today is that we can’t even talk about the facts without someone claiming its racism to point out something that makes minorities look bad, even if it is the truth and the underlying reason for the problem. Good luck fixing a problem you can’t even correctly diagnose (like not being able to make the case that whether we want it or not, fundamentalist Islam is at war with us), let alone talk about.

    That’s assuming something about someone based on their race, rather than their actions.

    Actually you have it backwards Cress. What is being pointed out is that the actions, and numbers behind the actions, point out a problem. But the people that gain – politically or otherwise – from the status quo immediately jump to accusations of racism to silence discussion.

    It’s why lady justice wears a blindfold.

    Which lady is that? The one the people that tell us racism is alive & well, and then only in one direction, but then let a criminal off so she can run for president, have basically ass raped?

    I’m not saying it’s not a natural human reaction, but that’s why cops are meant to be above that shit.

    And there in lies the problem. Let me regale you with a very pertinent story. After 9-11, a desperate Boosh administration smartly decided to ask for help from to the people that have had the best track record dealing with terrorism: the Israelis. They brought in one of Israel’s top security companies to help us figure out how to improve security at airports and any other such locations people suspected would become the next targets. They were given a very simple answer and the reason for that success: you profile the people you are screening and then focus on those that fit the profile.

    The idea, successful as it was, was DOA, because it would end up in someone accusing the profiles of being racists. Instead today we have a joke of a system that makes life hell for everyone and adds zero fucking value when it comes to security. I see them frisk old ladies, and of course hot ladies they want to feel up, pat down little kids that are in a panic, and do all kind of other idiotic shit, while avoiding people that actually walk and talk the terrorist way because of the potential of being accused of racism.

    Believe it or not, cops are in almost the same boat. You are in a crime infested inner city, where people that fit a certain profile seem to always end up being the ones responsible for practically all of the crime, but anyone that dares point that out is looking to end up gored by the grievance mongers. That’s not racism when statistics based on unmanipulated data show that constantly is the case.

    Crap, I hate having to defend the police, considering I see them as just another tool of the collectivist big government machine to hold people down and too many of them are abusive dicks (to everyone), but seriously I am tired of the way things are today where the politically correct, social virtue signaling, dickweeds prevent us from actually even correctly identifying the problems.

    A criminal is a criminal, and they should all be treated the same way under the law. That is, unless they are a democratic politician, it seems, and a Clinton in particular. Then that blind lady suddenly gets dragged into a dark corner and beaten into a pulp.

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  29. Hal_10000

    Incidentally, it looks like the Ferguson Effect may, in fact, be bullshit. It’s looking way more likely that the uptick in crime is a result of the heroin epidemic much like the crack epidemic drove crime up in the early 90’s.  Basically, the fall of El Chapo has fragmented the heroin market, creating a series of turf wars. Police in St. Louis have specifically said this appear to be the big driver of violent crime right now.

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  30. ilovecress

    In my scenario is one treated any different than the other? Is the outcome of the stop different?Are actions displayed by the officer any different?

     

    if the actions by the cop aren’t any different, then fine. He can be on alert. But he should be stopping them for a reason other than an assumption. Again, I’m talking about him acting on behalf of the Government here.

     

    In both scenarios, the cop is judging the existing situation according to statistical and historical reality.

     

    And that’s not meant to be what happens. They’re meant to judge the situation according to some very specific laws and guidelines.I get how Bob Smith might see a car full of gang bangers and make an entirely justified assumption that they’re up to no good, and they need to be dealt with. but as soon as he’s acting on behalf of the Government as a cop, he needs to treat them in exactly the same way he would with a picketville person. I get it, being a cop is hard.

     

    Pretending otherwise for the sake of political correctness is sheer lunacy.

     

    It’s not political correctness. it’s making sure the Government doesn’t get to do things to you based on any assumptions about you.

     

    Alex – to your profiling example. I agree, it would be much easier for cops in inner city areas where the majority of crime is committed by minorities to treat all minorities differently. but that’s not how it’s supposed to work. Take away all the BLM stuff and hand wringing, and you’re still left with the fact that the Government isn’t allowed to treat people differently based on them deciding that a certain proportion of the country are more likely to be criminals. (or not – see Clinton, Hillary Rodham)

     

    And I’m sure the black cop would get a kick out of you calling him racist when he pulls over other blacks, good one.

     

    Why would I care? He can be racist in his own time no problem – but when he’s a cop he needs to treat everyone equally under the eyes of the law. IT’S WHY BEING A COP IS HARD.

     

     

    Useless analogy time. Hillary wins in November. Bernie Sanders is Attorney General. He decrees that as most mass killings are perpetrated by Gun Owners, police are going to be provided with a database of all gun owners, and are to stop any they see for signs of mental illness. Profiling these gun owners will help catch the bad apples, and as any stops may be dangerous, it’s probably best to go in with guns drawn. Now why should law abiding gun owners be treated as criminals, just because of ‘historical and statistical realities’?

     

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  31. richtaylor365

    Jesus, Hal, the somersaults you will go through to intentionally be obtuse. The “Ferguson Effect” is not limited to murders committed and certainly not to just the streets of St. Louis. Police chiefs all across the country have told you about it, Comey has mentioned it, the Dallas police chief mentioned it just last week, wake up. Look what it’s doing to Chicago alone.

    From the National Review;

    It’s all really quite simple. Cops and criminals alike are rational actors, weighing the potential risks and rewards of any contemplated action. When police officers on the street spot someone whose behavior is indicative of possible lawbreaking, they know that initiating a stop carries the risk of an altercation that may not unfold in a manner approved by cowardly superiors, rabble-rousing “community activists,” craven politicians, or perhaps even the president. Against that risk he weighs the benefits of driving on by and finishing his shift on time and in one piece, and without having played the villain in some new YouTube sensation.

    It’s not hard to understand.

     but as soon as he’s acting on behalf of the Government as a cop, he needs to treat them in exactly the same way he would with a picketville person.

    And that it exactly what happened in the scenario I provided, but you had to jump in with shouts of racism because his mindset, based on statistics of possible outcomes, is different.

    Why would I care?

    You don’t need to care, and he really doesn’t give a shit what you think about the precautions he takes to keep him safe and going home to his family after shift. But you did provide him some comedic relief in calling him a racist because his spidey sense dingles a bit more with scenario B from above.

     

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  32. AlexInCT

    Alex – to your profiling example. I agree, it would be much easier for cops in inner city areas where the majority of crime is committed by minorities to treat all minorities differently. but that’s not how it’s supposed to work.

    Except, that is not what I said at all Cress. My point was precisely the opposite of what you are arguing. If minorities commit the majority, if not all the crime, they shouldn’t be surprised that the police is looking at minorities for suspects. That’s not because they are racists or feel like treating them differently.

    Do you ever hear stupid meth head crackers complaining that police unjustly come to their trailer parks to look for suspect of locally committed crimes? The reason you don’t is that they know if they complain people will have no problem telling them that since they fit the criminal profile and are the ones committing the crimes, the police comes to them. Yeah, they treat them like potential criminals because they likely are that. But switch to a minority, and somehow logic goes out the fucking window, and the narrative becomes that the cops are there because racism or that these cops are treating them differently – like criminals – not because criminality abounds, but just because of their skin color!

    Why the fuck do people behaving like thugs – of any gender, color, sexual orientation, or planet for that fucking matter – think they should get a pass because of PC reasons?

    Take away all the BLM stuff and hand wringing, and you’re still left with the fact that the Government isn’t allowed to treat people differently based on them deciding that a certain proportion of the country are more likely to be criminals. (or not – see Clinton, Hillary Rodham)

    You could have fooled me, and especially during these past 8 years (and what was different then?) when I saw people in government – and not just in the US, but across the mentally damaged western world created by multi-culturalism and PC bullshit – not only tell people with a straight face that racism only goes one way, and clear instances of racism not only not being prosecuted, but outright dismissed, because only white people can be racist.

    Sorry dude, but you have no case to make. And Hal is on crack digging the hole he is in deeper and deeper trying to pretend that the scumbags in the demcorat party, starting with the guy that will make Jimmy Carter’s abysmal presidency finally look OK,  didn’t foment the anger and ridiculous behavior we have been seeing that has led to the Dallas attack. Note that there have been tons of instances of racial attacks – by blacks angry at whites because of the racist sermons from Obama and Sharpton to name a couple of assholes doing this – that have been outright ignored/burred by the fucking media/DNC operatives with bylines. Even more ludicrous are the multiple instances where the perp tells us precisely why they are doing somethign horrible and evil, and figures in authority and the members of the corrupt media, act as if the motive isn’t clear because it doesn’t fit the narrative they want to push.

    But hey, keep trying to score points with the social circles in Hollywood and Washington DC by helping them sell their bullshit if that makes you feel like you are showing your bonafide social justice warrior creds, Hal. It must be tiring to have to work so hard to do all that social signaling.

    I am the person here that probably has the most disdain for government and the abuse a bloated collectivist government propagates, and I have to tell you, it saddens me to have to be the one to point out that the problem is the very fact that these dirtbags running things want to have it both ways. You can’t claim you are the sole moral authority, then also claim the agents that you want to have enforce your moral authority are the problem to divert the obvious spot light from you.

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  33. Hal_10000

    What a pile of crap, Rich. Comey was claiming a Ferguson effect before there was any evidence whatsoever of an uptick in crime (and there’s isn’t; there’s an uptick in murder specifically). That a bunch of people believe in this stuff means nothing. A bunch of people also believe there Satanic child abuse cults.  There weren’t. A bunch of people are telling us there is an epidemic of sex trafficking. There isn’t. You can forgive me if I don’t take the word of a bunch of people who think the biggest problem with cops shooting civilians is when we see it on video. Are you seriously going in for this garbage about how cops won’t shoot people because they’re afraid of YouTube rather than, you know, shooting an innocent person? What the hell do you guys really think of cops when you’re saying things like that?

    The connection to the heroin epidemic is based on data.  The connection to BLM or whatever is anecdote and wishful thinking by people who oppose policing reform.  I’ll put my trust in data every time.

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  34. ilovecress

    Why the fuck do people behaving like thugs – of any gender, color, sexual orientation, or planet for that fucking matter – think they should get a pass because of PC reasons?

    But you’re not talking about people behaving like thugs. You’re talking about people being profiled because of their minority status regardless of their behaviour. If they’re behaving like thugs, skin colour/ethnic background/whatever shouldn’t come into it.

    If statistically most crimes were committed by people called Alex, it would be prejudiced for me to pre-judge you based on your name. Now as a private citizen, that’s fine. But as soon as I am acting in an official capacity, that’s not on. Your little old lady example – it’s fine for her to cross the street because in her experience, she’s had more experience of trouble with black youths. But if she wants a gun and a badge, she needs to treat everyone equally under the law.

    I am the person here that probably has the most disdain for government

    And yet you’re happy for the Government to have the authority to designate people as ‘potential criminals’ ?

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  35. Hal_10000

    by blacks angry at whites because of the racist sermons from Obama and Sharpton to name a couple of assholes doing this

    Please point me to a racist inflammatory sermon Obama has given. I’ll wait.  I’ll wait just as long as I’ve been waiting for people to point me to his violence-inducing anti-police rhetoric. The closest they’ve gotten is that he criticized the cop in the Gates case and was a few hours later than they liked in calling the widow of a murdered cop.

    And Cress has a point you seem to be missing: that while a majority or significant plurality of criminal are black, criminals are still a minority of black people. And yet, they are all treated like potential criminals. Castile was pulled over 52 times for traffic violations, half of which were dismissed outright. During stop-and-frisk, black males were likely to be stopped and frisked more than once a year. There was an entire Justice Department report on Ferguson that detailed case after case of police harassing black people who weren’t doing anything and deluging black people with petty fines. Black people use drugs at about the same rate white people do but constitute the vast majority of busts for simple possession. You can’t pretend these facts don’t exist or that they don’t reflect something troubling and dangerous. That doesn’t make a BLM supporter or whatever. It just means acknowledging reality.

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  36. richtaylor365

     That a bunch of people believe in this stuff means nothing

    People? These are chiefs of police, from all over the nation, guys that have a damn better idea of police sentiment than progressives like yourself, the arrogance, you should be ashamed of yourself, you think that you know better than those that actually are on that blue line. The garbage that comes out of your keyboard, astounding. And again, you just can’t grasp the obvious, it’s not just murders or stuff going on in St. Louis, there is a direct correlation between arrests going down and crime going up. But yeah, you know what the cops are thinking and how they feel because your BLM sites you get your info from tells you what to think.

     The connection to BLM or whatever is anecdote and wishful thinking by people who oppose policing reform

    Yep, the Dallas shooter, the guy that specifically referenced BLM in his negotiations, must oppose police reform. The dumbest statement I’ve read here all year, collect your prize at the door.

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  37. Hal_10000

    I always know when you’re running out of facts Rich, because you devolve into insults an calumnies.  It’s all you have left. Police sentiments are not facts, Rich.  There are no facts to back up your claims, just cowering behind police sentiment because you expect the very word police to cow me into conceding all your points.  Sorry.

    You claim arrests are down. Show me the data.  You claim murders are up.  But they are up mainly in cities undergoing heroin turf wars.  In other cities, murders are down. You’re post-hoc propter-hoc argument is the kind of shit I expect from liberals (e.g, when they aregue that the stock market is up, therefore Obama has been great for the economy.)

    Yep, the Dallas shooter, the guy that specifically referenced BLM in his negotiations, must oppose police reform. The dumbest statement I’ve read here all year, collect your prize at the door.

    Yeah, except … that this guy was massively mentally unstable.  He tried to join Black Power groups and they rejected him because he was mentally unstable.  He was not a part of BLM.

    But is that how it works now?  If Person A kills Person B and claims it was for cause C, then we came blame Cause C?  Good to know.  I will expect a post from you:

    1) Denouncing those who think the Waco Massacre was unnecessary because Timothy McVeigh blew up the Murrah building in retaliation (as well as other incident of terrorism)

    2) Denouncing the pro-Life movement and any anti-gay movements because of Eric Rudolph and Scott Roeder and John Salvi and Robert Dear and numerous other anti-abortion murderers, some of whom were actually part of anti-abortion groups.

    3) Denouncing anti-immigration movements because of Albert Gaxiola and others who have committed violence against immigrants.

    4) Denouncing tax critics because of Andrew Stack’s attack on the IRS.

    5) Denouncing all the pundits who support Cliven Bundy, part of the Sovereign Citizen Movement that has, in some instances, killed cops.

    Oh, suddenly it’s bullshit right?  When it’s a cause you believe in or don’t have a problem with, suddenly this tactic is garbage?

    When someone commits violence on behalf of a violent movement (e.g., jihadists), that’s valid. But using political violence to disparage a political movement you don’t like is a Left Wing bullshit tactic, Rich.  I don’t put up with it from shitwit leftists and I don’t put up with it from our “side”.

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  38. Hal_10000

    (Also refreshing to see, after all this time, that you still define “progressive” as “anyone who disagrees with me on anything.”)

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  39. richtaylor365

    Police sentiments are not facts, Rich.

    No, but they are sentiments, which is part of the Fergusson effect that you keep ignoring. If you are going to make the claim the Fergusson effect is “bullshit” (your words) then you have to invalidate the elements of that effect and police sentiment, how they feel about doing their job and risking their lives, is a part of that. So far you have failed in that endeavor. Police chiefs thru out the land have told you what they see within the ranks, what their officers tell them,but again, you know better, you discount anecdotal testimony from folks that know because your black sites tell you different.

    There are no facts to back up your claims

    Nope, no facts whatsoever, it’s the El Chapo effect, right? And arrests down, what evidence? No cause/effect at all?

    I could do this all day;

    Lt. Bob Kroll, president of the union that represents the Minneapolis Police Department’s 850-plus officers, says the department has a morale crisis because of the public criticism of police officers after the shooting death last November of Jamar Clark. Kroll said his members are into “self-preservation mode’’ and responding only to emergency calls.

    But their actions — or lack of action — have yielded these results: Through May 2, police have made 8,504 arrests citywide, compared with 11,879 during the same period last year. In addition, the number of people who have been stopped, questioned and frisked has declined nearly 32 percent year over year.

    To be clear, I do not condone any of this, officers doing their jobs properly within the confines of departmental policy and the rules of law should have nothing to fear, but this link and a dozen more I could find in about 5 minutes negates your bullshit claim that the Fergusson Effect is a myth.

    Yeah, except … that this guy was massively mentally unstable.He tried to join Black Power groups and they rejected him because he was mentally unstable.He was not a part of BLM.

    But he was inspired by BLM, said so himself, keep denying it. And given all the crazy things BLS spokes people have said, to think that there is a sanity provision for official membership, still rolling on the floor over that one. More evidence of sane BLM members.

    But is that how it works now?If Person A kills Person B and claims it was for cause C, then we came blame Cause C?Good to know.

    If cause C espouses/provokes violence against person B and person A acts on those instructions, then yes, that is exactly how it works. You really needed that clarification? “what do we want? dead cops, When do we want them? now?” Seems like pretty simple instructions to me. And all your examples do not meet that criterion.

    Using political violence to disparage a political movement you don’t like is a Left Wing bullshit tactic, Rich.

    Sure is, but in order for your faux sanctimony to be valid, you will have to show “our side” committing this type of violence against an organization they don’t like, do that and I will agree with you. “our side” really?

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  40. Hal_10000

    If cause C espouses/provokes violence against person B and person A acts on those instructions, then yes, that is exactly how it works. You really needed that clarification? “what do we want? dead cops, When do we want them? now?” Seems like pretty simple instructions to me. And all your examples do not meet that criterion.

    Again, you use the favored tactic of the left wing. Just like they would troll Tea Party rallies looking for racists signs and claim they represented the entire movement, we’ll troll any rally we can find and claim it reflects BLM.  Meanwhile, here are their proposals. Notice that killing cops isn’t on the list. You tend to see what a movement is about when you do something other than troll right-wing blogs for confirmation of your beliefs.

    Arrests went down in NYC.  They then went back up.  Same with Minneapolis. And you specifically claimed that St. Louis arrests were down.  Murders and shootings are up in some cities, especially Chicago. Chicago has many problems, one of which is an ongoing drug war.

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  41. richtaylor365

     (Also refreshing to see, after all this time, that you still define “progressive” as “anyone who disagrees with me on anything.”)

    Be proud of your progessive creds. BLM, OWS, SJW’s? All worthy respectful folks who work within the confines of legality and only want a better society. Threats, property damage, criminal activity, a total erosion of civil liberties for those that oppose their views, no big deal. You have to break a few eggs to make an omelet, right?

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  42. richtaylor365

     Just like they would troll Tea Party rallies looking for racists signs and claim they represented the entire movement

    And if a Tea Party organizer or someone actually on stage espoused violence against the other side, then you would have a valid claim, but we do have video of BLM organizers actually doing this.

    You tend to see what a movement is about when you do something other than troll right-wing blogs for confirmation of your beliefs.

    You tend to see what a movement provokes when you listen to their supporters, what they want and what they are willing to do to get it.

     Chicago has many problems, one of which is an ongoing drug war.

    Yep, but why is the homicide rate doubling? I’m not here to say that the officer slow down, officers reluctant to do what they have always done before, is the only factor. But police chiefs say it is a factor, your denials notwithstanding.

     

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  43. richtaylor365

     Meanwhile, here are their proposals.

    How telling. When you click on the link of their policy solutions, you  get a picture of them spreading their false narrative, the hands up/don’t shoot false narrative, they just can’t help themselves.

    I have read their proposals, some of them I actually like and would support. But shitcaning the inflammatory rhetoric, the threats, and a new commitment to the truth would go a long way towards getting the rest of us on board. At your next BLM rally, mention that to them.

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  44. Hal_10000

    Yes, I keep forgetting. In Richworld, when you point out that a criticism launched against some organization is wrong or that they have a point, you are 100% aligned with them and agree with everything they say, as well as anything anyone has ever said that he didn’t like.

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  45. richtaylor365

    In Richworld when you praise an organization but deny/ignore all the bad things they do in furtherance of their cause, you come off like a hypocrite, actually that is in everyone’s world but yours.

    Oh look, another expert (just wrote an entire book on it) just came out with further proof that the Fergusson Effect is real. But yeah, you know better than everyone else. And you ridicule me for mocking your arrogance.

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  46. Iconoclast

    And that’s not meant to be what happens. They’re meant to judge the situation according to some very specific laws and guidelines.

    And now you’re setting up a false dichotomy.  Both scenarios start off with the implication that some law has been broken.  You appear to be assuming the car load of gang bangers was pulled over just because it’s a car load of gang bangers.  Unless you can prove that assumption, you have no case.

    I get how Bob Smith might see a car full of gang bangers and make an entirely justified assumption that they’re up to no good, and they need to be dealt with.

    So then, my observation is correct:  You are assuming that the gang bangers are being pulled over just because they’re gang bangers.  Fail.

    but as soon as he’s acting on behalf of the Government as a cop, he needs to treat them in exactly the same way he would with a picketville person.

    And there is absolutely nothing in Rich’s scenarios saying otherwise. It’s just assumption on your part.

    It’s not political correctness. it’s making sure the Government doesn’t get to do things to you based on any assumptions about you.

    Which, again, is based on your assumption that the cop would do something different, when such was never stipulated.  Being on heightened alert is not racism, no matter how much to try and fabricate a case that it is.

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  47. Hal_10000

    Oh look, another expert (just wrote an entire book on it) just came out with further proof that the Fergusson Effect is real.

    Rich, please check your spelling.  That should read: “Oh, look, a hack who has been banging on about the ‘War on Cops’ for years has finally cashed in with a factually-challenged book that used a few months worth of data to argue for what she’s believed all along!”  Citing that as proof of the Ferguson effect is like saying, “Hey, Barack Obama said the economy is doing great!  So that confirms what Obama has said about the economy being great!”  I have to almost admire it, Rich. It’s very rare that someone argues in a perfect circle like that.

    I don’t agree with BLM on everything or even the majority of things.  But I get tired of seeing groups and causes attacked for things they don’t do, statements they haven’t made and positions they don’t hold. I get tired of seeing legitimate concern dismissed because you don’t like part of the message or who is delivering it. And this goes on with BLM all the fucking time. The Ferguson Effect, based on partial crime data that doesn’t quite support the hypothesis, is a perfect example. There’s evidence that murder is up. But why and where and when it started to rise and what connection that has to policing is still unclear. But because BLM is raising questions that people don’t want answered, it’s convenient to blame them. It’s narrative construction for political purposes, no different then when people credit Obama with the oil boom that he had nothing to do with.

    Let me take a step back. I’m pro-choice.  But most of the time when I blog or comment on abortion, it’s to defend the pro-life side.  Not because I agree with them but because I believe they are unfairly attacked and maligned. It infuriates me when they are blamed for things like the George Tiller shooting or the Planned Parenthood attack (and remember, the pro-Life movement is claiming that mass murder is going on; a more serious charge than BLM is making).  It boggles my mind that the views of tens of millions of people — tens of millions of women — are written off as bible-thumping misogyny.  It’s not that I think they’re right; it’s that I think their views should be taken seriously.

    I spend 90% of my time on this blog attacking the Left and Obama.  But the minute I say, “well, they have a point on this” or “they’re right about one thing” or “that’s not true; that attack is unfair” or even “we don’t have enough information to say that”, I’m suddenly an SJW-BLM-DNC-XYZ-PDQ progressive Obama cocksucker.

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  48. richtaylor365

    A hack? I would say that you have just lost all credibility, but that was lost long ago. Hal, you could live another hundred years and still not accomplish half of what this author has. Calling this woman a hack, highlarious.

     It’s very rare that someone argues in a perfect circle like that.

    Except that in this thread I have provided half a dozen links to bolster the argument, so again, you fail.

     The Ferguson Effect, based on partial crime data that doesn’t quite support the hypothesis, is a perfect example. 

    Which proves that you still, after repeated attempts I’ve made, you still don’t know what the Ferguson Effect even is. Hopeless for you would be an improvement. For the 10th time, a substantial part of the Furgusson Effect is police sentiment, how they view the current political climate, how they feel supported or unsupported by society and how willing they are to proactively do their job when they feel either unappreciated or under undue unfair scrutiny. It’s not just about crime going up or down. But I’m not worried, your next comment will reveal a total misunderstanding of the effect and I will be back to square one.

    I spend 90% of my time on this blog attacking the Left and Obama.  But the minute I say, “well, they have a point on this” or “they’re right about one thing” or “that’s not true; that attack is unfair” or even “we don’t have enough information to say that”, I’m suddenly an SJW-BLM-DNC-XYZ-PDQ progressive Obama cocksucker.

    Quit whining. When you say something stupid or something easily refuted, people are going to call you on it, whether it has to do with left, right, or center.

    BLM now has the blood of 7 dead cops on their hands, 5 in Dallas and 2 in NYC, and these are just the ones where the murderer made the connection himself, no doubt more will follow. As I said above, which you ignored, I could easily get behind some of their reforms, but until they dial down the inflammatory hate fueled rhetoric and rain in their supporters, their pleas will fall on my deaf ears.

     

     

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  49. AlexInCT

    But you’re not talking about people behaving like thugs. You’re talking about people being profiled because of their minority status regardless of their behaviour. 

    No, that is what you want it to be, but not what I am saying. While many people would like to believe that is how things work, I am fairly certain that nobody gets stopped just for the color of their skin: they do because there was some behavior or action that raised suspicion AND they fit a profile. Any system that just stops minorities, regardless of behavior, because they are minorities, will not last. And that will not be because it is wrong, but because the system doesn’t actually exclude enough people unlikely to be a culprit, for it to be effective.

    If they’re behaving like thugs, skin colour/ethnic background/whatever shouldn’t come into it.

    And it doesn’t practically all the time. Ask Justin Beiber. The point is that if you fit a profile in a specific place, then you should not be surprised you are approached and treated a certain way.

    Profiling is actually a very scientific process, based on a series of criteria that narrow down the field of candidates one would have interests in, so you can actually limit your efforts to candidates or things that matter for whatever reason. Everyone profiles. You do it when you decide what to eat for lunch. You do it when you decide who you want to date, or even marry. And you do it whenever you go through a process that eliminate options so you can narrow down choice to something that is managable. Nobody would imply that you doing this is out of discriminatory reasons that are negative even if that might actually be the case. When looking for a potential criminal, the process is identical. The criminal has characteristics they conform to. Law enforcement agents basically choose to focus on the people that exhibit those characteristic. Hence my point that anyone acting like a thug shouldn’t be surprised law enforcement agents will be drawn to them like moths to flames. People that dont act in a fashion that promotes a certain profile, will rarely end up the subject of scrutiny, unless they are dealing with an inept system like the TSA.

    Chris Rock said it best in the standup skit he did about how to avoid a beatdown by cops. Google it. Not only is it funny, but it is dead on.

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  50. AlexInCT

    If statistically most crimes were committed by people called Alex, it would be prejudiced for me to pre-judge you based on your name.

    First off, any profiling system based on just one criterion isn’t going to be very effective, and is likely to yield too many false positives to be of value, but let me play along. If most crimes being committed are done by people called “Alex”, then I with the name “Alex”, shouldn’t think that it is unfair or prejudiced for a system that is trying to prevent crime to targeting me. Note that I certainly wont like it, but it would only be a real problem if I was targeted, then, even when it found I was not a criminal, acted as if I was. However, if I was exhibiting the characteristics of criminal, whether I am a criminal or not, and law enforcement chose to focus on me, I not only have no soap box to stand on, but I should have the wherewithal to know I brought it on myself. Perception matters, whether we would like it to or not.

    The problem people like you seem to be suffering from – and I am basing it on the discussion we are having – is the incorrect assumption that the ONLY reason someone gets targeted by law enforcement is the color of their skin. If you could show me that law enforcement agents only shot black people and nobody else, you might have a case. The fact is that they shoot far more white people than black ones, but white people don’t think that is some form of racism. Neither do Asians, whom are the least likely to be shot. Let me remind you that Alton Sterling had an impressive rap sheet. Just like that guy in Ferguson, which had just committed a crime (robbery) and then assaulted an officer, but then had people with an agenda tell us was just shot because he was black. When people with an agenda argue from this premise, they deprive the people that really where wronged from justice. And as I pointed out: the agenda was to get black voters out for the DNC, and nothing does that better than a fake crisis that involves racism!

    Oh, I have heard of how many more blacks get in troube with the law and end up shot compared as a percentage of the population, but then again, in every one of these cases they conveniently ignore the percentage of crime done by this segment of the population, which when juxtaqposed, paints a completely different picture. Let me be frank with you Cress. I despise this discussion we are having. Not because of the Political Correctness component, but because it detracts from the important problem that police abuse of power exists (and it is definitely not limited to shooting people, and black people in particular, which seems the only time that nanny staters have a problem with their overbearing enforcement agents). I doubt I will ever find myself in a situation where a police officer will feel compelled to pull a weapon out at me ever again, let alone shoot at me, because I know what not to do when dealing with them. I am far more concerned with stopping agents of the state from ripping me off financially and acting uppity about it, because they wear a badge, because it is that sort of hubris that leads so many to think they can get away with anything.

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  51. Hal_10000

    Heather McDonald is a hack. The very title of her book is a lie. There is no War on Cops. They last few years have been the safest for cops in history. Her “War on Cops” is supposed rhetoric — hurty words — that, when you dig into them, don’t amount to much. I am STILL waiting for someone to show me Obama’s vile anti-cop rhetoric.  Every link you provide is the same crap: there’s a War on Cops because we say there’s a War on Cops.  There’s a Ferguson Effect because we say there is. There’s not necessarily any connection violence.  But Cops don’t feel supported because someone criticized them and they are used to total unconditional support for politicians.  So there.

    War on Cops? When cops are killed, it is national news.  Everyone opposes it.  The President will speak on it and call the widows. The killers are hunted down relentlessly and, in states that have it, almost always given the death penalty. All of this is entirely appropriate.

    Again, look at Obama’s “vile anti-cop rhetoric” that is supposedly destroying morale.  He criticized the cop in the Gates case.  He expressed sympathy for Trayvon Martin’s family (who was, uh, not killed by a cop).  This is nothing compared to the shit we see spewed at him every damned day. And yet somehow, this constitutes a War on Cops.  Every time someone so much says, “Maybe there’s a racial bias in policing” you guys clutch your pearls and scream “how DARE you!”. BLM will never be able to tone down the inflammatory because all rhetoric is considered inflammatory.

    BLM now has the blood of 7 dead cops on their hands, 5 in Dallas and 2 in NYC, and these are just the ones where the murderer made the connection himself, no doubt more will follow.

    BLM has not called for cops to be murdered.  Some people who’ve shown up at rallies have said awful things.  But to the extent that there is a central leadership, they’ve called for non-violent reform.  Again, you’re pulling that favorite trick of the liberals: “my political opponents said something I didn’t like, someone else killed someone, therefore it is my political opponents’s fault.  How dare they say their hurty magical words which make people go out and kill!” How is this any different from the liberals blaming pro-Lifers for abortion doctors getting murdered? Why don’t you just give up and go look for an election map with crosshairs on it or something.

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  52. Hal_10000

    To be clear on where I disagree with BLM: I don’t think all cops are racist. I don’t think most are.  I don’t think even a significant minority are.  And even those I would hesitate to describe as “racist” and more of “prejudiced” or “biased” in small ways.

    However … here’s the rub. We have so many laws on our books and so much pressure from overspending cities to give out as many fines and citations as possible and so many interactions between cops and citizens that even if a tiny minority of cops are biased, black people encounter that bias constantly.  And the emphasis on aggressive militarized policing means that those biases can explode in violent incident like no-knock raids and shootings. The push for police to do more, the emphasis on militarization and the reflexive defending of anything they do is putting pressure on a part of society’s mechanism that is already strained.

    So I think they have a point.  There is a bias (read this, for example. But I think we’d better off concentrating on the things that are easier to change: less militarized police, fewer laws, fewer arrests and citations.

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  53. AlexInCT

    However … here’s the rub. We have so many laws on our books and so much pressure from overspending cities to give out as many fines and citations as possible and so many interactions between cops and citizens that even if a tiny minority of cops are biased, black people encounter that bias constantly. 

    You lost me as soon as you mentioned cities. I wouldn’t live in a city if that was the only option left to me. The people that tend to end up there do so because they can’t go elsewhere or know freeloading is easier there. To be honest I have little sympathy for those people. However, I disagree with your premise that cops target minorities for money. Unless they are targeting successful drug dealers, they are not going to get much money from welfare recipients.

    Now the fact that they target suburbanites to make money pisses me off even more. I have no desire for where I live to turn into a shithole like Hartford, New Britain, New Haven, or Waterbury (big cities in CT), so why am I being forced to pay for a police force that only sees me as a means of income?

    Our legal system is broken and a joke. Fewer laws, a less militarized police, and even legilized drugs (as long as I am not asked to foot any part of the bill for addicts with my tax money) can go a long way to making life better, but then, the left, which tends to be behind most of the dumbest laws possible, will have less opportunity for graft, so that will never happen.

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  54. Hal_10000

    However, I disagree with your premise that cops target minorities for money. Unless they are targeting successful drug dealers, they are not going to get much money from welfare recipients.

    You would be wrong.  Communities like Ferguson have a lot of working class blacks.  And they are being totally shaken down. You can read Balko again on how this works. The cities target whomever they can and they like targeting poor and working class because those people (a) rarely have the resources to fight; (b) rarely have the resources to pay a ticket, so they on installments than end up doubling or trebling the initial fine.  The IRS does the same shit.  If you look at who they audit, it’s heavily middle class people who can’t fight them.

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  55. richtaylor365

    Hal, you are just awesome, to be able to critique a book without even reading it, to discount all the research, the footnotes, the statistics, studies, peer reviews,discount everything because it does not fit your preconceived notion of how things should be, then call the author a hack for good measure. And how much time you save, knowing the contents of a book without even reading it, what a talent. The latest Harvard study backs Macdonald’s findings, but you know better, a legend in your own mind.

    Police chiefs from all over the nation give anecdotal testimony of what they hear and see from their officers, all saying the same thing, but Hal does not believe it, he knows better.

    Here is who you are aligning yourself with, but yeah, just a few rabble rousers, youtube is filled with them.

    Lenin had a description for stooges like yourself, boy, was he spot on.

    If you told me the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, I would want a second opinion.

     

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  56. AlexInCT

    Police chiefs from all over the nation give anecdotal testimony of what they hear and see from their officers, all saying the same thing, but Hal does not believe it, he knows better.

    I am sorry to go there again, but it sure sounds like what your typical liberal does whenever the facts get in the way of the narrative. There is plenty of real problems with the police , but this one is one that is made up for craven political reasons. Again. leftist get people killed and use that as an excuse to fuck us all over.

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  57. Hal_10000

    al, you are just awesome, to be able to critique a book without even reading it, to discount all the research, the footnotes, the statistics, studies, peer reviews,discount everything because it does not fit your preconceived notion of how things should be, 

    None of that exists.  MacDonald’s book has no footnotes and cites no sources. The Ferguson incident was just two years ago. WE DONT EVEN HAVE FULL CRIME DATA FOR 2015.  How can you possibly make such huge claims based on so little data?  Oh wait, it fits your narrative.  MacDonald has been saying that is because of politicians attacking police. That’s the entire basis of this “War on Cops” narrative because it certainly isn’t showing up in an actual war on cops. But I am still waiting for this vile anti-police rhetoric the President supposedly spews.  I have been waiting throughout 60 comments for it.  Still not getting it.  Are you seriously telling me that the entire country is going to war against cops because of a few BLM idiots?  Seriously?  Again, this is the liberal template: “He said bad words!  He questioned us! MY FEELS!”  And another liberal narrative: “Somebody published a book.  That ENDS the debate.”

    The Harvard study is also dubious.  First of all, it DID find racial disparities in policing (fact #3).  Second of all, its claim that police shooting did not have a racial bias was based on less than 10% of documented cases and relied heavily on initial police reports.  He didn’t use the FBI data, which is incomplete but consistent and would literally cover ten times as many incidents with critical details like the results of independent investigations. He didn’t use the Guardian’s data, which is complete but only for two years and covers twice as many incidents.  He didn’t account for blacks being more likely to be arrested or detained by police in the first place.  If he had used those, he would have seen the racial disparities.

    Useful idiot? Do you even understand what that concept means? Look in a mirror. This entire Ferguson Effect/War on Cops narrative is being pushed by people who want to stop police reform and continue police militarization. It has already been used in North Carolina to bar the public from having access to body cam and dash cam footage (like the way the Chicago police buried dash cam footage for two years that showed them riddling holes into the body of a man who was walking away). It’s being used to push all manner of legislation to make cops less accountable. You’re the one trying to advance the agenda of the powerful.

    But no, we’ll go with your feels.  You’ve made it very clear that your feels are what matter here.  Policing being safer than its ever been? No, you feels there’s a War on Cops.  A rise on inner city violence that we can barely document, let alone understand? No, you feels there’s a Ferguson Effect. Racial disparities that show up in previous research into policing? No, you feels that some guy at Harvard who’s an economist and never studied crime before did it right going with a fraction of the data available to everyone else.

    You guys are skeptical about every government narrative … until it’s cops shooting people. Hefty tomes are written on global warming an income inequality and you’re skeptical … until it’s cops shooting people. Then suddenly the agents of government should be trusted without question.

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  58. Hal_10000

    Here is who you are aligning yourself with, but yeah, just a few rabble rousers, youtube is filled with them.

    Those aren’t BLM. They appear to be Black Panthers. And I can find a thousand Youtube videos of crazy right wing groups advocating violence (including the Sovereign Citizen/Cliven Bundy types many Republicans openly supported).  You really want to go into the YouTube sewer on this one?

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  59. richtaylor365

    Ah, now it all becomes clearer, you got a hard on for Macdonald because she blows holes in your specious war on drugs argument, so she has nailed you twice for being wrong, now it makes sense. And the irony of you calling this accomplished woman a hack is totally lost on you.

    How can you possibly make such huge claims based on so little data?

    It’s  not a huge claim at all, I already provided links to back it up, oh wait,  you got the definition wrong again, I won my own bet.

     Are you seriously telling me that the entire country is going to war against cops because of a few BLM idiots? 

    Nice work, you normally dive right into the reducto absurdium, but here you waited a bit. Yeah, I’m telling you the ENTIRE country is going to war against [all] cops because of a few BLM idiots. absurdium times 10 with you. Funny but I never once mentioned anything about a war on cops in this thread did I? Did I? I referenced Macdonald’s book only in the context of the Fergusson Effect (yeah, I know, you don’t know what that is) I did mention 7 dead cops at the hands of BLM but no mention of any war, so again, what the hell are you talking about?

    The Harvard study is also dubious

    Of course it is, it doesn’t confirm with your narrative, just like Macdonald’s books. You don’t have to read them to know what’s in them and what studies their facts are drawn from.

    Useful idiot?

    Yep, BLM needs white bleeding heart types like yourself to remove the stink of what they advocate and lend even the appearance of legitimacy, they need your empathy, compassion, and your willingness to further cause, they just hope that you don’t look too hard at the ingredients, you guys never do, do you?

    It’s being used to push all manner of legislation to make cops less accountable. 

    So by your nebulous theory since I believe the Furgussn effect is real, I should be against police reform and for making cops more accountable, yet I believe just the opposite and have written about both here on this blog. Time to rework your dopey narrative.

    Then suddenly the agents of government should be trusted without question.

    {In my best Reagan voice} there you go again, saying the absurd. Yeah, I am a big believer in trusting the government without question.

    Those aren’t BLM

    And yet there a guy with a BLM sign standing right next to him. The levels at which you will try to mitigate evil, amazing. Here is another reference to that rally, more BLM threats, nice friends you have there Hal.

    And I can find a thousand Youtube videos of crazy right wing groups advocating violence (including the Sovereign Citizen/Cliven Bundy types many Republicans openly supported).

    Except that I never ever sang the praises of these folks or backed their cause, but you have with BLM, so your analogy does not work.

     You really want to go into the YouTube sewer on this one?

    So when I post a video showing what these idiots say or do, it’s going in to the sewer? It’s not their fault, it’s youtubes fault. Much like the liberal fall back on gun violence, it’s not the fault of the person that actually fired the gun, it’s the gun’s fault. At least you guys are consistent.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

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