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Israel and Hamas Again

I’ve been holding back on commentary on the latest Israel-Hamas conflict to see what was going to happen. What’s happening is a war. The latest news is that Hama militants crossed the border into Israeli territory and have fired over 150 rockets into civilian areas. Israel is responding with air strikes. And the sordid mess goes on and on.

There’s a lot of blaming both sides going on. And while I can certainly see the argument against Israel’s response, I don’t think there is anything close to a moral comparison here. This started because three Israeli teenagers were kidnapped and murdered, most likely by Hamas. Hamas has denied involvement but supports the idea of kidnappings in general. Shortly after the bodies of the Israeli teens were found, a Palestinian teen was brutally murdered in retaliation. But the Israeli authorities condemned it as an act of terrorism and have already arrested the people responsible.

That’s how you know who the good guys in this situation are. One side acknowledge the other’s right to exist, condemns brutal violence against innocents and tries to deliver justice for its minority Islamic population. The other is a terrorist organization that does not recognize its opponent’s right to exist and has no interest in delivering justice to the people who murdered three innocent young men.

We can debate Israel’s tactics, sure. But let’s not lose sight of which side we should be on.

32 comments

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  1. mrblume says:

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  2. Hal_10000 says:

    The problem is that Israel has learned the hard way that these things escalate no matter what you do. If the Israelis timidly cower in bomb shelter every night, Hamas will just start firing more rockets or (in this case) incur on Israeli territory.

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  3. Seattle Outcast says:

    Sometimes I feel we should just flood the region with weapons for all sides and sit back and wait for a winner – and then nuke the winner on general principles.

    How many centuries have they been killing each other over minor differences in religion and who looks slightly different?

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  4. Xetrov says:

    If a cop shoots a drug dealer because he was verbally insulted, I’m not wondering who’s side I’m supposed to be on.

    150 rockets launched at civilians = a drug dealer verbally insulting a cop? Really??

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  5. Iconoclast says:

    150 rockets launched at civilians = a drug dealer verbally insulting a cop? Really??

    Apparently so. If it weren’t for moral relativism, the left would have little to say.

    Israel’s “tactics” are one of persistent overreaction, evidenced by the fact that there are thousands of dead Palestinians for every Israeli killed.

    Assuming the truth of this claim for the sake of argument, that may be due to Palestinian leadership using its civilians as human shields. But I doubt the truth of the statement in the first place. I suspect it’s just anti-Semitic propaganda.

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  6. TxAg94 says:

    Before I do something that is guaranteed to kill an innocent person, I’d rather run to a rocket shelter every single night; and I expect nothing less of people who want to be my moral equivalent.

    Said the guy who doesn’t have to run to a rocket shelter every single night, or have his children run to a shelter every single night.

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  7. Iconoclast says:

    Is that the side of peace, truth and justice?

    Loaded question — as long as Israel exists, there simply will not be peace in the region. Of course, even if Israel were to be eradicated (still a goal of Hamas), that still wouldn’t guarantee peace in the region.

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  8. AlexInCT says:

    Loaded question — as long as Israel exists, there simply will not be peace in the region.

    Even after they destroyed Israel there would be no peace in that shithole part of the world. Israel is just a convenient excuse for evil barbarians to do their thing and get support from their fellow travelers (anti-Semitism runs deep with the left who loves to project it elsewhere). If there was no Israel there would have been another reason for these fucks to kill innocent people, including those amongst them that don’t suck the dick of the master assassins hard enough.

    There is no moral conundrum for me here. You can pretend there is, but I am then more inclined to question you and your intentions than take any fault with people left with no option but to exterminate the evil that keeps coming after them and their children (and then not doing exactly that). Does anyone doubt that if it was us or the Europeans being attacked like this that they wouldn’t strike out? Only Israel needs to keep saying thank you and asking for another. Well, except when you have a scumbag leftist in charge that would rather use the crisis to increase their power than protect the people he swore to do so for. Kind of like the asshole in the WH right now.

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  9. mrblume says:

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  10. Xetrov says:

    Think of it has me using a metaphor. Like Jesus would have.

    I would prefer to think of it as an asinine comparison that in no way reflects reality, which is what it was.

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  11. Section8 says:

    “Regardless, I don’t care what the “bad guys” do.”

    Says it all right there.

    “You would, no question. We wouldn’t.”

    In this case then, encourage those that need to lash out to target “you” whoever that “you” is. At least the “peace” would be kept since there would be no response and since you don’t care what the other side does, it works out for everyone. Then and only then could you tout your morals rather than hypothetical bullshit of running to shelters.

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  12. Poosh says:

    Fact: If the Israelis were actually arab Muslims and did EXACTLY everything the Israelis had done, none of this would happen.

    The only causal factor of this conflict is the fact that one side is Jewish and the other side is commanded to think and do a whole litany of horrific things to the Jews. The fact that Jews beat arab Muslims over and over, and sin by running their own government on Muslim soil (all land that Muslims occupy at some point is Muslim soil, such as parts of Spain – do not confuse this with our understanding of land ownership) is the reason for the conflict.

    Don’t kid your self and think it’s anything else. Don’t pretend the Palestinians are victims (though a good deal of them are, a good deal of them aren’t).

    You think just because 4 million were systemically exterminated, the whole world is gonna stop hatin’ Jews? lol. No one entered WW2 to stop the Jews from being wiped off the planet… First thing we Brits did during the Blitz was blame the Jews and smash their shops up as GERMAN bombers headed back to refuel. Same old hate. First thing the (peasant) Crusders did when heading off to the Holy Land to stop MUSLIM imperialism was to slaughter some Jews (until the Pope told them to wtf, stop it).

    Not a single f*cking thing has happened to change that hate.

    You could pour all of the world’s gold into the Palestinian territories and instead of building hospitals, they’d still build weapons of Jew-destruction. Because Allah Wills It. And Honour demands it.

    The Jews are the lowest of the low after all.. how would you feel if they beat you war after war against impossible odds?

    As for those on the Left who aren’t anti-Semites (and a lot of them are, and there are indeed many on the British right, sadly, the older generations of Tories) – well, the Left love their fake victims. It’s a no-brainer.

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  13. Poosh says:

    “You would, no question. We wouldn’t.”

    Not for lack of want ….

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  14. Iconoclast says:

    Think of it has me using a metaphor. Like Jesus would have.

    Claiming to have equal footing with Jesus, are we? Is there no limit to your sanctimony? I sincerely doubt that Jesus would ever “use a metaphor” to utterly trivialize attempted mass murder, yet such is your implication, based on the fact that you are doing exactly that. Jesus’ Dad, God Himself, promised the land currently called Israel to those Jews being targeted by the Palestinians, and whose attempted mass-murder you are trying to trivialize. I really have a hard time believing God or Jesus would be down with that, your claims of doing what Jesus would do notwithstanding.

    These people that Israel is targeting aren’t hiding among civilians. They are just living. They have families, because that’s what people do.

    Is firing 150 rockets at civilian populations “what people do”? Your massive equivocations are truly a thing to behold. Furthermore, you contradict yourself. If those people who are firing rockets at civilian populations have families, then they’re using their families as human shields, with or without their family’s consent.

    Regardless, I don’t care what the “bad guys” do.

    That’s disturbingly obvious.

    It is hard to justify the assassination of a person to begin with; if you need to kill his whole family in the process, it just became impossible.

    Tell that to those who are firing the rockets into civilian populations. Like I said, your equivocation, along with your massive self-righteous sanctimony, are truly breathtaking.

    Well, look at your own numbers of Israelis vs Palestinians killed in the last week and tell me what they say.

    I have, and what they unequivocally don’t say is that there are thousands of Palestinian dead for every one dead Israeli, which was your claim.

    You would, no question. We wouldn’t.

    If by “we”, you mean Europeans, I say bullocks. Europeans started two global conflagrations last century, and has quite the history of bloodshed in general. Not only is your sanctimony breathtaking, it’s completely unfounded.

    No one entered WW2 to stop the Jews from being wiped off the planet… First thing we Brits did during the Blitz was blame the Jews and smash their shops up as GERMAN bombers headed back to refuel. Same old hate. First thing the (peasant) Crusders did when heading off to the Holy Land to stop MUSLIM imperialism was to slaughter some Jews (until the Pope told them to wtf, stop it).

    I am convinced that there is no other people in human history who have suffered such relentless and consistent persecution as the Jews. They were forcibly removed from their homeland thousands of years ago, wandered in Diaspora for those thousands of years, and suffered persecution everywhere they went, culminating in the Final Solution. In spite of all that, they managed to prosper and do quite well for themselves when circumstances allowed it. An example is that they became proficient at banking, mainly because they were forbidden from owning land.

    After the Holocaust, they were determined that their systematic demise would not happen and therefore retook their original homeland. This is unprecedented in human history, although I have been assured that this sort of thing happens all the time. Nevertheless, I have never been given an example that parallels the Jewish saga, and I doubt that I ever will.

    You could pour all of the world’s gold into the Palestinian territories and instead of building hospitals, they’d still build weapons of Jew-destruction. Because Allah Wills It. And Honour demands it.

    The Jews are the lowest of the low after all.. how would you feel if they beat you war after war against impossible odds?

    Again, I am convinced that Israel prevails precisely because their God is real and Islam’s Allah isn’t. And that is the reason why the Jews have survived these thousands of years in spite of relentless persecution, only to reclaim their homeland in these latter days. Allah didn’t even exist until the early seventh century.

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  15. Poosh says:

    @Iconoclast What’s interesting about antisemitism is it isn’t really like racism.

    Normal racism usually draws out several negative myths and is consistent.

    Antisemitism really is whatever X person wants it to be. Often the anti-Semite engages in double think. Jews are stupid yet run the world, Jews are untrustworthy yet somehow manage to trick everyone around them. Jews are the elites yet also of the gutter. It never makes sense, it morphs and morphs, t’s all things.

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  16. mrblume says:

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  17. Iconoclast says:

    I actually think that’s true (though irrelevant).

    Pointing out double standards is never “irrelevant”, although your recognizing that the double standard exists is encouraging.

    Of course, if Anwar al-Awlaki had been called John Smith and didn’t have a beard, he would never have been assassinated…

    Of course, your implying that the reasons Anwar al-Awlaki was “assassinated” were his beard and his name is quite discouraging, given how utterly silly that implication is. Why do you utterly ignore his al Qaeda connection, and the fact that he was a suspected traitor? What is it about your psyche that makes you trivialize such things? Is your world view really that twisted? Maybe it is. You do seem to think your just like Jesus, after all.

    …and if the Palestinians where Christians, you’d be out on the street crying murder.

    If the Palestinians where Christians, it’s highly unlikely that they would elect “leadership” whose stated goal is the utter destruction of Israel. Again, that twisted world view of yours come into sharp focus.

    Israel Hamas still has hundreds of human lifes (sic) on its conscience in the last week alone…

    Fixed it for you. You’re welcome. Of course, the statement is still flawed in that it assumes Hamas has a conscience, which is far from established.

    That is why they are morally superior.

    You are in no position to judge peoples’ morality at any level, given your apparently twisted world view.

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  18. mrblume says:

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  19. AlexInCT says:

    Not so unlikely. Germany was exclusively Christian in *that* time (and people were actually devoutly believing that shit back then, too).

    Oh, Bulllshit. The Third Reich was all about going back to the old pagan ways, and while the bulk of the German people might not been been very knowledgable about the Nazi leadership’s plans, you had to be blind to not see it. In fact, I bet most people in Germany saw it quite well, and Christian or not, they went along because they were more interested in having dignety, a job that allowed them to put food on the table, and an end to the abuse that followed the armistice after WWI.

    You are correct, however inderectly, that anit-semitism has run and continues to runs rampant in that part of the world and many other places where their brand was exported, even amongst European and other Christians.It’s the same shit that has these types supporting the Palestinian terrorists and pretending they do it because Israel is a meany and the poor child murdering monsters just have no other choice.

    Keep making exuses for the real motivation behind your support for murderers.

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  20. Technomad says:

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  21. Iconoclast says:

    Not so unlikely. Germany was exclusively Christian in *that* time…

    Ah, yes, this utterly predictable talking point raises its head again. The German people were predominately Christian, yes, but to claim that they were “exclusively” Christian is simply nonsense. The Nazis certainly weren’t Christian by any stretch. They adopted essentially pagan beliefs. The swastika itself is a pagan symbol of the sun.

    The Nazis had plans to systematically root out Christianity through a systematic campaign of persecution of Christian churches. When made aware of this documented history, claims that the Germans were exclusively Christian come across as simply absurd.

    I dabble in multiple languages, and fact: the only people I’ve ever heard say the word traitor with a straight face are Americans.

    Assuming the truth of these claims for the sake of argument, they’re hardly relevant, given that they’re thoroughly anecdotal and subjective. And frankly, given the high BS content of your posts thus far, let’s just say your credibility is lacking as to the accuracy of these claims.

    Yes I trivialize it.

    Obviously. Your problem, not mine.

    The concept itself has persecution complex and jingoism built right into it.

    More BS. Being a domestic enemy of the state is a serious matter, your unwillingness to see that notwithstanding. Again, the man was allegedly working with/for al Qaeda. Attempting to trivialize that is borderline insane.

    Still, I was amused by the “suspected” qualification.

    That’s just the way it works, chief. Until one is actually convicted of a crime, they are only a suspect. That you find the concept of due process to be “amusing” speaks volumes, none of it flattering.

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  22. Poosh says:

    “if the Palestinians where Christians, you’d be out on the street crying murder. It’s unforunate, but there you go.”

    Eh, would I have cried murder during the firestorms of WW2? 1000s of Christian Germans burnt alive, many of them bred on the same Nazi upbringing the Palestinians are brought up on. Yet I wouldn’t be crying murder. …

    Islam demands the extermination of the Jews, Christianity does not, so that simply would not happen unless you throw in some Nazi indoctrination or classic Jewish hate. But let’s say the Palestinians were all Christians and did every thing the current Arab Muslims were doing. Everyone would still be supporting Israel. it is entirely hilarious that you would think we would some how be crying murder if it was “Christians” doings this.

    We’ve had no trouble slaughtering and bombing Christians before: in defence of Muslims no less.

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  23. Iconoclast says:

    If countries have a “right to exist,” why aren’t we frantically trying to revive Yugoslavia-that-was? Or Czechoslovakia, or the old Soviet Union? Or the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies? Or the Most Serene Republic of Venice?

    Unfortunately, you have fallen into a trap of equivocation. None of the states you mentioned ever had their “right to exist’ questioned, but Israel has, repeatedly. The claim is that Israel “stole” their land from the Palestinians, and therefore, they don’t have the right to establish their state on “stolen” land. Now, admittedly, we can debate whether states have a “right to exist”, but we should acknowledge that a people should have the right to live in peace, which is something that has been consistently denied the Jews throughout human history.

    No, Israel’s “right to exist” claim didn’t occur in a vacuum; it is a response to incessant claims that it doesn’t have the right to exist. And, for the record, there has never existed a state called “Palestine” in all of human history, whereas Israel did exist in antiquity, and the Jews have simply reclaimed their homeland which was forcibly taken from them.

    Just like the ancient Hebrew Scriptures predicted would happen.

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  24. mrblume says:

    Until one is actually convicted of a crime, they are only a suspect.

    Well, a dead suspect.

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  25. mrblume says:

    Eh, would I have cried murder during the firestorms of WW2?

    Of course not. You were the one dropping the bombs, and to top it off, no false-god worshipers were involved.

    In fact, I bet most people in Palestine see it quite well, and Muslim or not, they go along because they are more interested in having dignity, a purpose and the fight the abuse they endure by military occupiers living without basic rights in a ghetto for the last fifty years.

    “Fixed it for you”?

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  26. Iconoclast says:

    Well, a dead suspect.

    Yes, sometimes suspects get killed before they have a chance to go to trial, but the real point you seem so desperate to dodge is that this particular suspect was killed for working with al Qaeda, not because he had a beard.

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  27. Iconoclast says:

    Of course not.

    You just contradicted yourself. First, you claimed:

    …if the Palestinians where Christians, you’d be out on the street crying murder.

    mrblume, July 19, 2014 6:26 PM

    You then made the comparison to Nazi Germany:

    Germany was exclusively Christian in *that* time

    mrblume, July 21, 2014 5:38 PM

    And now you admit that “we” would not necessarily “cry murder” over dead Christians:

    Of course not.

    mrblume, July 22, 2014 7:24 PM

    Well done, champ.

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  28. InsipiD says:

    The big lesson that nobody ever points out is that the death of Palestinians would stop immediately if they would stop attacking Israel. Regardless of how many die due to this imbalance that is always brought up, or whether someone with an agenda labels them all to be civilians, etc., when Israel is not being attacked, they don’t attack. I don’t understand how they could have such a PR problem when they’re always reactionary.

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  29. CM says:

    InsipiD, the argument is that the controls and occupation is an ongoing attack.

    IMO the shithead fucktard leaders/decision-makers on both sides are fucking over their own people.

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  30. AlexInCT says:

    The big lesson that nobody ever points out is that the death of Palestinians would stop immediately if they would stop attacking Israel.

    If the murderous Palestinians chose to lay down their arms, there would be a chance for peace in the ME. I say maybe, because these people always have one excuse or another to butcher someone else, and often, even their own. If the Jews laid down their arms, they would be slaughtered, after the Palestinians scumbags raped the women and children, and tortured whomever they could. Anyone that pretends otherwise is full of fucking shit.

    That tells you all you need to know about which side is what.

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  31. AlexInCT says:

    IMO the shithead fucktard leaders/decision-makers on both sides are fucking over their own people.

    I call bullshit on your claim. I remind you that no more than a decade or two ago, one side, bowing to enormous and insane pressure from other nations that would never, ever have agreed to something like that, had their country’s future been on the line, was forced to concede to live side by side with people that vowed genocide. The deal was turned down, because the leader of the blood drinkers was afraid if he agreed to it, he might lose the power being the antagonist gave him.

    History has a way to rain on the parade that people that like to equivocate about the two sides involved. After Arafat’s fuck you I would have just steamrolled the fucking assbags into the ocean and been done with that. But here they are, yet again, being forced by assholes of the left that want to see Israel destroyed, to play nice with bloodthirsty murderers. Fuck that.

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  32. InsipiD says:

    Not both sides, one side. The other side is too busy being an economic powerhouse to pick fights. This despite being about the only country in the area having no oil under its soil.

    For anyone who is intellectually honest about the situation, there is no moral equivalency between Israel and whatever cartoonish thugs are in charge of the Palestinian authority at the time. There is no comparison whatsoever.

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