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Israel and Hamas Again

I’ve been holding back on commentary on the latest Israel-Hamas conflict to see what was going to happen. What’s happening is a war. The latest news is that Hama militants crossed the border into Israeli territory and have fired over 150 rockets into civilian areas. Israel is responding with air strikes. And the sordid mess goes on and on.

There’s a lot of blaming both sides going on. And while I can certainly see the argument against Israel’s response, I don’t think there is anything close to a moral comparison here. This started because three Israeli teenagers were kidnapped and murdered, most likely by Hamas. Hamas has denied involvement but supports the idea of kidnappings in general. Shortly after the bodies of the Israeli teens were found, a Palestinian teen was brutally murdered in retaliation. But the Israeli authorities condemned it as an act of terrorism and have already arrested the people responsible.

That’s how you know who the good guys in this situation are. One side acknowledge the other’s right to exist, condemns brutal violence against innocents and tries to deliver justice for its minority Islamic population. The other is a terrorist organization that does not recognize its opponent’s right to exist and has no interest in delivering justice to the people who murdered three innocent young men.

We can debate Israel’s tactics, sure. But let’s not lose sight of which side we should be on.

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  1. mrblume says:

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  2. Hal_10000 says:

    The problem is that Israel has learned the hard way that these things escalate no matter what you do. If the Israelis timidly cower in bomb shelter every night, Hamas will just start firing more rockets or (in this case) incur on Israeli territory.

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  3. Seattle Outcast says:

    Sometimes I feel we should just flood the region with weapons for all sides and sit back and wait for a winner – and then nuke the winner on general principles.

    How many centuries have they been killing each other over minor differences in religion and who looks slightly different?

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  4. Xetrov says:

    If a cop shoots a drug dealer because he was verbally insulted, I’m not wondering who’s side I’m supposed to be on.

    150 rockets launched at civilians = a drug dealer verbally insulting a cop? Really??

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  5. Iconoclast says:

    150 rockets launched at civilians = a drug dealer verbally insulting a cop? Really??

    Apparently so. If it weren’t for moral relativism, the left would have little to say.

    Israel’s “tactics” are one of persistent overreaction, evidenced by the fact that there are thousands of dead Palestinians for every Israeli killed.

    Assuming the truth of this claim for the sake of argument, that may be due to Palestinian leadership using its civilians as human shields. But I doubt the truth of the statement in the first place. I suspect it’s just anti-Semitic propaganda.

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  6. TxAg94 says:

    Before I do something that is guaranteed to kill an innocent person, I’d rather run to a rocket shelter every single night; and I expect nothing less of people who want to be my moral equivalent.

    Said the guy who doesn’t have to run to a rocket shelter every single night, or have his children run to a shelter every single night.

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  7. Iconoclast says:

    Is that the side of peace, truth and justice?

    Loaded question — as long as Israel exists, there simply will not be peace in the region. Of course, even if Israel were to be eradicated (still a goal of Hamas), that still wouldn’t guarantee peace in the region.

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  8. AlexInCT says:

    Loaded question — as long as Israel exists, there simply will not be peace in the region.

    Even after they destroyed Israel there would be no peace in that shithole part of the world. Israel is just a convenient excuse for evil barbarians to do their thing and get support from their fellow travelers (anti-Semitism runs deep with the left who loves to project it elsewhere). If there was no Israel there would have been another reason for these fucks to kill innocent people, including those amongst them that don’t suck the dick of the master assassins hard enough.

    There is no moral conundrum for me here. You can pretend there is, but I am then more inclined to question you and your intentions than take any fault with people left with no option but to exterminate the evil that keeps coming after them and their children (and then not doing exactly that). Does anyone doubt that if it was us or the Europeans being attacked like this that they wouldn’t strike out? Only Israel needs to keep saying thank you and asking for another. Well, except when you have a scumbag leftist in charge that would rather use the crisis to increase their power than protect the people he swore to do so for. Kind of like the asshole in the WH right now.

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  9. mrblume says:

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  10. Xetrov says:

    Think of it has me using a metaphor. Like Jesus would have.

    I would prefer to think of it as an asinine comparison that in no way reflects reality, which is what it was.

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  11. Section8 says:

    “Regardless, I don’t care what the “bad guys” do.”

    Says it all right there.

    “You would, no question. We wouldn’t.”

    In this case then, encourage those that need to lash out to target “you” whoever that “you” is. At least the “peace” would be kept since there would be no response and since you don’t care what the other side does, it works out for everyone. Then and only then could you tout your morals rather than hypothetical bullshit of running to shelters.

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  12. Poosh says:

    Fact: If the Israelis were actually arab Muslims and did EXACTLY everything the Israelis had done, none of this would happen.

    The only causal factor of this conflict is the fact that one side is Jewish and the other side is commanded to think and do a whole litany of horrific things to the Jews. The fact that Jews beat arab Muslims over and over, and sin by running their own government on Muslim soil (all land that Muslims occupy at some point is Muslim soil, such as parts of Spain – do not confuse this with our understanding of land ownership) is the reason for the conflict.

    Don’t kid your self and think it’s anything else. Don’t pretend the Palestinians are victims (though a good deal of them are, a good deal of them aren’t).

    You think just because 4 million were systemically exterminated, the whole world is gonna stop hatin’ Jews? lol. No one entered WW2 to stop the Jews from being wiped off the planet… First thing we Brits did during the Blitz was blame the Jews and smash their shops up as GERMAN bombers headed back to refuel. Same old hate. First thing the (peasant) Crusders did when heading off to the Holy Land to stop MUSLIM imperialism was to slaughter some Jews (until the Pope told them to wtf, stop it).

    Not a single f*cking thing has happened to change that hate.

    You could pour all of the world’s gold into the Palestinian territories and instead of building hospitals, they’d still build weapons of Jew-destruction. Because Allah Wills It. And Honour demands it.

    The Jews are the lowest of the low after all.. how would you feel if they beat you war after war against impossible odds?

    As for those on the Left who aren’t anti-Semites (and a lot of them are, and there are indeed many on the British right, sadly, the older generations of Tories) – well, the Left love their fake victims. It’s a no-brainer.

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  13. Poosh says:

    “You would, no question. We wouldn’t.”

    Not for lack of want ….

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  14. Iconoclast says:

    Think of it has me using a metaphor. Like Jesus would have.

    Claiming to have equal footing with Jesus, are we? Is there no limit to your sanctimony? I sincerely doubt that Jesus would ever “use a metaphor” to utterly trivialize attempted mass murder, yet such is your implication, based on the fact that you are doing exactly that. Jesus’ Dad, God Himself, promised the land currently called Israel to those Jews being targeted by the Palestinians, and whose attempted mass-murder you are trying to trivialize. I really have a hard time believing God or Jesus would be down with that, your claims of doing what Jesus would do notwithstanding.

    These people that Israel is targeting aren’t hiding among civilians. They are just living. They have families, because that’s what people do.

    Is firing 150 rockets at civilian populations “what people do”? Your massive equivocations are truly a thing to behold. Furthermore, you contradict yourself. If those people who are firing rockets at civilian populations have families, then they’re using their families as human shields, with or without their family’s consent.

    Regardless, I don’t care what the “bad guys” do.

    That’s disturbingly obvious.

    It is hard to justify the assassination of a person to begin with; if you need to kill his whole family in the process, it just became impossible.

    Tell that to those who are firing the rockets into civilian populations. Like I said, your equivocation, along with your massive self-righteous sanctimony, are truly breathtaking.

    Well, look at your own numbers of Israelis vs Palestinians killed in the last week and tell me what they say.

    I have, and what they unequivocally don’t say is that there are thousands of Palestinian dead for every one dead Israeli, which was your claim.

    You would, no question. We wouldn’t.

    If by “we”, you mean Europeans, I say bullocks. Europeans started two global conflagrations last century, and has quite the history of bloodshed in general. Not only is your sanctimony breathtaking, it’s completely unfounded.

    No one entered WW2 to stop the Jews from being wiped off the planet… First thing we Brits did during the Blitz was blame the Jews and smash their shops up as GERMAN bombers headed back to refuel. Same old hate. First thing the (peasant) Crusders did when heading off to the Holy Land to stop MUSLIM imperialism was to slaughter some Jews (until the Pope told them to wtf, stop it).

    I am convinced that there is no other people in human history who have suffered such relentless and consistent persecution as the Jews. They were forcibly removed from their homeland thousands of years ago, wandered in Diaspora for those thousands of years, and suffered persecution everywhere they went, culminating in the Final Solution. In spite of all that, they managed to prosper and do quite well for themselves when circumstances allowed it. An example is that they became proficient at banking, mainly because they were forbidden from owning land.

    After the Holocaust, they were determined that their systematic demise would not happen and therefore retook their original homeland. This is unprecedented in human history, although I have been assured that this sort of thing happens all the time. Nevertheless, I have never been given an example that parallels the Jewish saga, and I doubt that I ever will.

    You could pour all of the world’s gold into the Palestinian territories and instead of building hospitals, they’d still build weapons of Jew-destruction. Because Allah Wills It. And Honour demands it.

    The Jews are the lowest of the low after all.. how would you feel if they beat you war after war against impossible odds?

    Again, I am convinced that Israel prevails precisely because their God is real and Islam’s Allah isn’t. And that is the reason why the Jews have survived these thousands of years in spite of relentless persecution, only to reclaim their homeland in these latter days. Allah didn’t even exist until the early seventh century.

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  15. Poosh says:

    @Iconoclast What’s interesting about antisemitism is it isn’t really like racism.

    Normal racism usually draws out several negative myths and is consistent.

    Antisemitism really is whatever X person wants it to be. Often the anti-Semite engages in double think. Jews are stupid yet run the world, Jews are untrustworthy yet somehow manage to trick everyone around them. Jews are the elites yet also of the gutter. It never makes sense, it morphs and morphs, t’s all things.

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  16. mrblume says:

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  17. Iconoclast says:

    I actually think that’s true (though irrelevant).

    Pointing out double standards is never “irrelevant”, although your recognizing that the double standard exists is encouraging.

    Of course, if Anwar al-Awlaki had been called John Smith and didn’t have a beard, he would never have been assassinated…

    Of course, your implying that the reasons Anwar al-Awlaki was “assassinated” were his beard and his name is quite discouraging, given how utterly silly that implication is. Why do you utterly ignore his al Qaeda connection, and the fact that he was a suspected traitor? What is it about your psyche that makes you trivialize such things? Is your world view really that twisted? Maybe it is. You do seem to think your just like Jesus, after all.

    …and if the Palestinians where Christians, you’d be out on the street crying murder.

    If the Palestinians where Christians, it’s highly unlikely that they would elect “leadership” whose stated goal is the utter destruction of Israel. Again, that twisted world view of yours come into sharp focus.

    Israel Hamas still has hundreds of human lifes (sic) on its conscience in the last week alone…

    Fixed it for you. You’re welcome. Of course, the statement is still flawed in that it assumes Hamas has a conscience, which is far from established.

    That is why they are morally superior.

    You are in no position to judge peoples’ morality at any level, given your apparently twisted world view.

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  18. mrblume says:

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  19. AlexInCT says:

    Not so unlikely. Germany was exclusively Christian in *that* time (and people were actually devoutly believing that shit back then, too).

    Oh, Bulllshit. The Third Reich was all about going back to the old pagan ways, and while the bulk of the German people might not been been very knowledgable about the Nazi leadership’s plans, you had to be blind to not see it. In fact, I bet most people in Germany saw it quite well, and Christian or not, they went along because they were more interested in having dignety, a job that allowed them to put food on the table, and an end to the abuse that followed the armistice after WWI.

    You are correct, however inderectly, that anit-semitism has run and continues to runs rampant in that part of the world and many other places where their brand was exported, even amongst European and other Christians.It’s the same shit that has these types supporting the Palestinian terrorists and pretending they do it because Israel is a meany and the poor child murdering monsters just have no other choice.

    Keep making exuses for the real motivation behind your support for murderers.

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  20. Technomad says:

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  21. Iconoclast says:

    Not so unlikely. Germany was exclusively Christian in *that* time…

    Ah, yes, this utterly predictable talking point raises its head again. The German people were predominately Christian, yes, but to claim that they were “exclusively” Christian is simply nonsense. The Nazis certainly weren’t Christian by any stretch. They adopted essentially pagan beliefs. The swastika itself is a pagan symbol of the sun.

    The Nazis had plans to systematically root out Christianity through a systematic campaign of persecution of Christian churches. When made aware of this documented history, claims that the Germans were exclusively Christian come across as simply absurd.

    I dabble in multiple languages, and fact: the only people I’ve ever heard say the word traitor with a straight face are Americans.

    Assuming the truth of these claims for the sake of argument, they’re hardly relevant, given that they’re thoroughly anecdotal and subjective. And frankly, given the high BS content of your posts thus far, let’s just say your credibility is lacking as to the accuracy of these claims.

    Yes I trivialize it.

    Obviously. Your problem, not mine.

    The concept itself has persecution complex and jingoism built right into it.

    More BS. Being a domestic enemy of the state is a serious matter, your unwillingness to see that notwithstanding. Again, the man was allegedly working with/for al Qaeda. Attempting to trivialize that is borderline insane.

    Still, I was amused by the “suspected” qualification.

    That’s just the way it works, chief. Until one is actually convicted of a crime, they are only a suspect. That you find the concept of due process to be “amusing” speaks volumes, none of it flattering.

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  22. Poosh says:

    “if the Palestinians where Christians, you’d be out on the street crying murder. It’s unforunate, but there you go.”

    Eh, would I have cried murder during the firestorms of WW2? 1000s of Christian Germans burnt alive, many of them bred on the same Nazi upbringing the Palestinians are brought up on. Yet I wouldn’t be crying murder. …

    Islam demands the extermination of the Jews, Christianity does not, so that simply would not happen unless you throw in some Nazi indoctrination or classic Jewish hate. But let’s say the Palestinians were all Christians and did every thing the current Arab Muslims were doing. Everyone would still be supporting Israel. it is entirely hilarious that you would think we would some how be crying murder if it was “Christians” doings this.

    We’ve had no trouble slaughtering and bombing Christians before: in defence of Muslims no less.

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  23. Iconoclast says:

    If countries have a “right to exist,” why aren’t we frantically trying to revive Yugoslavia-that-was? Or Czechoslovakia, or the old Soviet Union? Or the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies? Or the Most Serene Republic of Venice?

    Unfortunately, you have fallen into a trap of equivocation. None of the states you mentioned ever had their “right to exist’ questioned, but Israel has, repeatedly. The claim is that Israel “stole” their land from the Palestinians, and therefore, they don’t have the right to establish their state on “stolen” land. Now, admittedly, we can debate whether states have a “right to exist”, but we should acknowledge that a people should have the right to live in peace, which is something that has been consistently denied the Jews throughout human history.

    No, Israel’s “right to exist” claim didn’t occur in a vacuum; it is a response to incessant claims that it doesn’t have the right to exist. And, for the record, there has never existed a state called “Palestine” in all of human history, whereas Israel did exist in antiquity, and the Jews have simply reclaimed their homeland which was forcibly taken from them.

    Just like the ancient Hebrew Scriptures predicted would happen.

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  24. mrblume says:

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  25. mrblume says:

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  26. Iconoclast says:

    Well, a dead suspect.

    Yes, sometimes suspects get killed before they have a chance to go to trial, but the real point you seem so desperate to dodge is that this particular suspect was killed for working with al Qaeda, not because he had a beard.

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  27. Iconoclast says:

    Of course not.

    You just contradicted yourself. First, you claimed:

    …if the Palestinians where Christians, you’d be out on the street crying murder.

    mrblume, July 19, 2014 6:26 PM

    You then made the comparison to Nazi Germany:

    Germany was exclusively Christian in *that* time

    mrblume, July 21, 2014 5:38 PM

    And now you admit that “we” would not necessarily “cry murder” over dead Christians:

    Of course not.

    mrblume, July 22, 2014 7:24 PM

    Well done, champ.

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  28. InsipiD says:

    The big lesson that nobody ever points out is that the death of Palestinians would stop immediately if they would stop attacking Israel. Regardless of how many die due to this imbalance that is always brought up, or whether someone with an agenda labels them all to be civilians, etc., when Israel is not being attacked, they don’t attack. I don’t understand how they could have such a PR problem when they’re always reactionary.

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  29. CM says:

    InsipiD, the argument is that the controls and occupation is an ongoing attack.

    IMO the shithead fucktard leaders/decision-makers on both sides are fucking over their own people.

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  30. AlexInCT says:

    The big lesson that nobody ever points out is that the death of Palestinians would stop immediately if they would stop attacking Israel.

    If the murderous Palestinians chose to lay down their arms, there would be a chance for peace in the ME. I say maybe, because these people always have one excuse or another to butcher someone else, and often, even their own. If the Jews laid down their arms, they would be slaughtered, after the Palestinians scumbags raped the women and children, and tortured whomever they could. Anyone that pretends otherwise is full of fucking shit.

    That tells you all you need to know about which side is what.

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  31. AlexInCT says:

    IMO the shithead fucktard leaders/decision-makers on both sides are fucking over their own people.

    I call bullshit on your claim. I remind you that no more than a decade or two ago, one side, bowing to enormous and insane pressure from other nations that would never, ever have agreed to something like that, had their country’s future been on the line, was forced to concede to live side by side with people that vowed genocide. The deal was turned down, because the leader of the blood drinkers was afraid if he agreed to it, he might lose the power being the antagonist gave him.

    History has a way to rain on the parade that people that like to equivocate about the two sides involved. After Arafat’s fuck you I would have just steamrolled the fucking assbags into the ocean and been done with that. But here they are, yet again, being forced by assholes of the left that want to see Israel destroyed, to play nice with bloodthirsty murderers. Fuck that.

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  32. InsipiD says:

    Not both sides, one side. The other side is too busy being an economic powerhouse to pick fights. This despite being about the only country in the area having no oil under its soil.

    For anyone who is intellectually honest about the situation, there is no moral equivalency between Israel and whatever cartoonish thugs are in charge of the Palestinian authority at the time. There is no comparison whatsoever.

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  33. CM says:

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  34. richtaylor365 says:

    The big danger with the whole “there is no moral equivalency” argument is that it can be used to justify anything because you are choosing to support one side regardless of what happens.

    Not much of a danger at all to rational thinking folks, and that is not what’s been demonstrated here, the ACTIONS of one side has been weighed against those of the other and a determination has been made as to who is acting morally/properly, and who is not. It’s not that hard. One side fires rockets indiscriminately at the other with hopes of maximum civilian casualties, the other side’s approach is a bit different;

    http://www.inquisitr.com/1342806/gaza-israel-warns-targets-by-sms-and-phone-to-leave-before-bombing/

    Israel’s approach to bombing enemy targets is unique in the history of warfare. Making use of modern technology, it sends text messages, or calls the target several minutes before striking, to warn the occupants to move to safety.

    Then it sends a flare or similar device as a final warning before actually dropping the bomb. The success of this strategy can be measured by the numbers. In striking 500 targets in Gaza, only around 20 civilians have died, with about another 20 Islamic militants. In terms of what is euphemistically called “collateral damage,” those figures are extraordinarily low.

    Should not some moral judgments be made when you consider how each side conducts their conflict with the other?

    IMO it’s far more complicated

    Not really;

    http://conservativehideout.com/2014/07/22/what-is-happening-in-israel-in-a-little-over-five-minutes/

    any attempt to simplify it does that one side being “good” and the other side being “bad” is disingenuous and unhelpful.

    Again, that is not what’s happening here. If Israel decided that enough is enough and just leveled Gaza (which they have the force and firepower to do, sans nuclear weapons) and everyone in it, they would not have the label of “good” anymore, would they? Being “good” only holds if your actions are good.

    I don’t understand your confusion.

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  35. CM says:

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  36. CM says:

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  37. InsipiD says:

    Yeah, I’m sure that Israeli settlements are just as bad as firing rockets at innocent civilians.

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  39. Iconoclast says:

    The big danger with the whole “there is no moral equivalency” argument is that it can be used to justify anything because you are choosing to support one side regardless of what happens.

    There is “danger” in just about everything, including the refusal to see that “there is no moral equivalency” when there is no moral equivalency. Your quoted statement above could very well have been uttered by pacifists during the days leading up to WWII.

    Those of us who “choose to support one side” do so based on our best understanding of what has been happening, but you are trying to twist that into “supporting one side regardless of what happens”. That’s more than a little insulting, yes?

    I don’t want to see Israel destroyed…

    Well, Palestinian leadership — Hamas — does want to see it destroyed. It’s their repeatedly stated goal. That alone should indicate a lack of moral equivalency at some level.

    I don’t think their strategy (which includes expanding settlements on disputed territory and enforcing a prison state) is sustainable.

    Perhaps not, and that is fertile ground for debate. However, I do not believe that Hamas’ goal of destroying Israel is predicated on the existence of Israel’s settlements on disputed territory, although it may be used as an excuse for the current round of rocket attacks.

    Nonsense, I’ve never seen the actions of Israel weighed against anything. I’ve hardly seen any criticism of Israel at all, ever.

    If that’s truly the case, then you must be living under a rock. It seems that Israel gets nothing but condemnation and criticism. There are those in this venue who criticize Israel — check out Technomad’s post of July 21, 2014 7:16 PM, for example. The UN criticizes and condemns Israel on a regular basis, like every time Israel defends herself from Hamas rocket attacks.

    But then all I get back is nonsense in response.

    Maybe because all you post is nonsense in the first place? Garbage in, garbage out.

    How does that help boys kicking a ball around on a beach from being killed, or a geriatric hospital being bombed?

    See? You complain about “a statement entirely free from underlying context”, yet you turn around and pose questions that are “entirely free from underlying context”. Are you saying that the Israelis bomb kids playing on the beach, geriatric hospitals and family homes out of the blue, just for the hell of it? Why do you ignore the underlying context of Hamas firing rockets into Israel, or their using people as human shields? Why do you not ask why those areas were targeted in the first place, or why Hamas insist on placing their rocket launching hardware in such locations? No, you simply see what Hamas wants you to see and proceed from there.

    IDF campaign shows rockets in schools and hospitals

    Yeah, we could dismiss it as more bullshit propaganda, I suppose, but again, Hamas has repeatedly stated that it’s goal was Israel’s destruction. And again, that should be enough to tip the balance, one would think.

    Enjoy the bubble.

    Right. As if. What makes you think you’re not in a bubble?

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  40. Xetrov says:

    InsipiD, the argument is that the controls and occupation is an ongoing attack.

    I don’t understand how so many people have such a brainfart when it comes to the history of Israel. Israel didn’t seek to take more land as an aggressor. They were attacked. Repeatedly. The other side got their asses handed to them. When the attacks on their civilians didn’t stop, Israel too steps to protect their civilians, including keeping some of the land they took during the war. Do you know who the most prosperous Palestinians are by far? Those living under “occupation”.

    Palestinian U.N. Ambassador Riyad Mansour has claimed that the international community must protect Palestinians because of the Geneva Convention. All the while Palestinian leaders are breaking that same convention by hiding military assets among those same civilians they claim need protection. It’s like some people live in the twilight zone or something.

    IMO it’s far more complicated and any attempt to simplify it does that one side being “good” and the other side being “bad” is disingenuous and unhelpful.

    One side targets civilians and tries to kill them on purpose. Is that good, or bad?

    One side goes to great pains of putting their own soldiers in danger by trying to minimize civilian casualties on the other side. Is that good, or bad?

    One side tries to hide among a civilian population, intentionally putting their own people in danger. Is that good, or bad?

    Evil sometimes has to be called for what it is, CM.

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  41. Iconoclast says:

    Why There Can Never Be ‘Peace in the Middle East’

    Hamas’ covenant calls for the destruction of Israel. The preamble reads: “Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.” Article Three describes the duty of all Muslims: “(To) fear Allah and raise the banner of Jihad in the face of the oppressors.”

    Article Seven states: “The Day of Judgment will not come about until Muslims fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: ‘O Muslim, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him.’”

    Article Eleven clarifies their belief that “the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waif (Holy Possession) consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgment Day. No one can renounce it or any part, or abandon it or any part of it.”

    Article Thirteen flatly states: “Palestine is an Islamic land. … Since this is the case, the liberation of Palestine is an individual duty for every Muslim wherever he may be.” It also says, “There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad.”

    Any doubt about how committed Hamas is to Israel’s destruction?

    Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barack offered the following: to withdrawal completely from Gaza, to surrender almost all of the West Bank and to give the Palestinians most of Arab East Jerusalem, which would be their new capital. Israel agreed to dismantle Jewish settlements to achieve those objectives, and would allow a certain number of Palestinians to “return” to Israel, with additional compensation for Palestinians not allowed to return.

    In exchange Yasser Arafat, the head of the Palestine Liberation Organization, was required to do one thing — renounce violence against Israel and accept its right to exist as a Jewish state. Arafat walked away and thus began the so-called Second Intifada, a burst of violence that left over 1,000 Israelis dead by 2005.

    Yeah, more bullshit propaganda, I suppose.

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  42. Poosh says:

    *i’ve always thought it was quite stupid to expand settlements. As far as I’m concerned that land is the spoils of war, tough – BUT it makes no sense to throw meat to the wolves in ALL respects. It makes you look imperialistic and it just increases the land that needs to be protected, it only creates problems in the current decade. That is not to say it should be handed over to anyone, just that Israeli civilians should not be allowed to live there.

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  43. Poosh says:

    The problem is we have ample evidence that the Palestinians are nothing like “us” in regard to consciousness. The’re brought up to hate the Jews from birth and are high on the Islamic extremist scale (and why wouldn’t the be?) It’s not their fault, it’s the culture that is forced upon them and shapes them, we would be no different and do no different if born there. We have no control over our surroundings if those surroundings shape us into Nazis – the vocab and education will make sure we cannot escape it, bar a few lucky individuals or those who experience western life. Yet the left and certain useful idiots want to see these people are “just regular innocent people” and “just like us” when they are not. Therefor they cannot believe that these chaps will happily STAY in a building that the Israelis have demanded to leave, just so they can die and by martyred and be used as propaganda to be fed to the West. They cannot accept that their beef with Israel is purely becase they’re Jewish and think it disgusting that Jews are on arab lands (all Land there belongs to Allah). Because they’ve reframed these aggressors as victims, they imagine them as being just like them.

    On the other hand there is ample evidence that the Israelis are just like us – or are us, in fact. They are a western nation just like the rest of us. You KNOW the Israelis will not target children for the sake of it, because WE WOULDN”T.

    But the left etc imagine the Israelis are not like us, despite contrary evidence – and they imagine them as some sort of monsters. Gleefully killing children or not caring. Imperialist and not at all like us.. DESPITE THEM BEING ONE OF THE MOST ADVANCED WESTERN COUNTRIES for all intents and purposes. Their culture more or less identical in as much as western countries share culture. They even have their own liberals and useful idiots, and fifth columnists, just like we do.

    It’s a complete inversion. But, just as a “white man” cannot be a racist because he has power, the Israselis cannot be victims, because they have power… liberalism 101

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  44. richtaylor365 says:

    Nonsense, I’ve never seen the actions of Israel weighed against anything.

    You trying to set a record for the absolute dumbest things to say? This has gotta be way up there. Everyday I read criticisms, from just about everyone. That goofy link you posted offers one from a US Senator, just the other day we heard Kerry criticize them over a botched “pin point operation”. US cities (along with many in Europe) have hosted many pro Palestinian rallies condemning Israel. Sometimes you are just beyond thick.

    I disagree

    And I’m supposed to congratulate you for your inability to see the obvious? This failure is on you.

    There we go, a statement entirely free from underlying context. Just like InsipiD’s comment that I responded to. But then all I get back is nonsense in response.

    Another massive failure on your part. We see indiscriminate rocket attacks launched by one side, destination unknown (sometimes landing on their own side and killing their own people, bunch of dumbasses) and on the other side we see researched targets hit with precision weapons, along with warnings ahead of time to limit civilian casualties;

    The success of this strategy can be measured by the numbers. In striking 500 targets in Gaza, only around 20 civilians have died, with about another 20 Islamic militants. In terms of what is euphemistically called “collateral damage,” those figures are extraordinarily low.

    And you clamor for context, pathetic.

    Outside the tiny right-wing US bubble anyway. I.e. how they frame it at ‘Conservative Hideout’

    So because the video was reposted, along with dozens of other websites, on a site with “conservative” in the name, you are allowed to scream “propaganda” and discount everything in it? Hopeless.

    Of course 57 seconds might be complete bullshit.

    when one considers the evidence given of the great lengths the IDF takes in warning civilians ahead of time of impending attacks, Yeah, I would say that is total bullshit, but let’s post it anyway, it fits your narrative.

    But thanks for yet another reminder of why discussing this topic here is a colossal waste of time

    Could not have said it better myself, a colossal waste of time.

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  45. Iconoclast says:

    This whole thing is so full of propaganda that it’s hard to accept anything from either side.

    Or perhaps the problem is with you personally. Perhaps you personally cannot accept that a people can be driven by ideology to the point of sacrificing their own lives and the lives of their children for a cause, namely, the annihilation of a country and its people. Perhaps you use “propaganda” as your excuse for being unable to wrap your head around it. It’s funny how you rail against “ideology” on a regular basis, shouting “extreme” at the top of your lungs, while being apparently unable or unwilling to see or accept the ideology in this situation.

    Like it or lump it, the Hamas Covenant says what it says. Palestinian leadership does exhort the people to remain in harm’s way during Israeli reprisals, and the 57 seconds may represent genuine human error in not providing sufficient warning, which may have gone unheeded anyway. There is only so much the Israelis can do to protect a people that seems hell-bent on self-destruction.

    But yeah, it’s all propaganda, there are no good guys or bad guys, there is no real difference between the Israelis and the Palestinians/Hamas, it’s just “too complicated” to figure out.

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  46. mrblume says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  47. mrblume says:

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  48. richtaylor365 says:

    This is like every subject ever, in the history of the universe. Somehow, everyone thinks their side is not getting a fair shot.

    I’ll assume that English is not your first language. CM made this implausible statement ,” I’ve hardly seen any criticism of Israel at all, ever.” When I cite examples of criticisms all over the world including those in our own government you somehow equate that with me complaining that my side is not getting a fair shot, uh?

    And who exactly is my side? I am not a Jew, do not live in Israel, don’t have friends or acquaintances in that area, am not financially or even emotionally invested in the fight. Granted, the Bible prophesized this conflict (and already pegged the winner but I won’t ruin it for you), like most Americans I am an outsider watching as the events unfold. But as an outsider I get to see what each side is doing and determine for myself who has the moral high ground, who’s actions are born out of a necessity for survival and who’s are born out of savage and ignorant blood lust.

    At least the rockets being shot at Israel are real.

    Now we’re getting some where. A short while ago you equated the rocket attacks with a verbal insult, as dumb as that was, at least now you admit the rocket attacks are real. Baby steps.

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  49. CM says:

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  50. InsipiD says:

    [quote] At least the rockets being shot at Israel are real. [/quote]

    American Airlines flight 11 wasn’t real?

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  51. CM says:

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  52. CM says:

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  53. richtaylor365 says:

    Ah, this explains CM to a tee;

    Image and video hosting by TinyPic

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  54. Iconoclast says:

    I mean, lol.

    Oh, is that what you mean? I couldn’t tell, through all the self-righteous sanctimony and whatnot.

    Look, there is misinformed, and then there are things you can only believe if you really are a racist.

    So which one are you, misinformed or racist? Seriously, dropping the racism card is utterly weak, as is this lame attempt to laugh away actual evidence, something you have yet to submit in all of your self-righteous, troll-like bloviation. And the Hamas Covenant says what it says, like it or lump it.

    Of course, if this were true, if it were true that the reason Israel has to kill babies now is because they refused to swallow their pride and just had to insist on a semantic point (like we could trust those arabs anyway), then that’s pretty bad.

    What is this “kill babies” nonsense? The ones killing babies are the ones using babies to protect their precious rocket launchers. And yes, it is bad. Thanks for admitting it.

    Fortunately for Israels moral standing, their disagreements were a bit more involved.

    Like I keep saying, you’re hardly in any position to be judging anyone’s moral standing. And I see that you simply pontificate without any attempt to back up your bloviation with actual evidence.

    Again.

    “Lol” indeed!

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  55. Poosh says:

    CMTARD.com says: “And there it is – a key rationale behind ongoing unconditional support and the wholesale acceptable of all Israeli arguments and propaganda. It’s ‘good’ versus ‘bad’, and the ‘bad’ are sub-humans. Animals really (who know no better).”

    Which really is ” trying to set a record for the absolute dumbest things to say”.

    Imagine the logical corollary of CM in the 1940s “the key rationale behind ongoing unconditional support and the wholesale acceptable of all Allied arguments and propaganda. It’s ‘good’ versus ‘bad’, and the ‘bad’ Nazis are sub-humans. Animals really (who know no better).

    I’d love CM to tell the IDF to their faces their liars and baby killers. That being said he probably thinks our respective armed forces are liars and baby killers as well sigh. Far better men then he’ll ever be. I can go to the Palestinians and say “you really hate Jews don’t you” and they’ll be rather “no shit Sherlock” won’t they…

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  56. Iconoclast says:

    Look, there is misinformed, and then there are things you can only believe if you really are a racist.

    Let’s turn it around…

    Look, there is misinformed, and then there are things you can only believe if you really are anti-semitic.

    Much better.

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  57. Iconoclast says:

    It’s certainly something convenient to hide behind.

    Your quoted statement? Agreed.

    I’ve not twisting anything…

    Didn’t say you did, only that you tried to (but failed).

    I don’t though, and yet I don’t unconditionally support Israel.

    Who’s talking about “unconditional” support? Do you “unconditionally support” Hamas by defending their actions as you seem to be doing?

    But there is apparently no need for debate.

    Not when you make statements like that, I guess not.

    The settlements keep getting built, and aquifers under Palestine are drained, children die because of the horrific conditions (which Israel controls), and then something terrible happens after 14 months without rocket fire, and then all of a sudden it’s acceptable for Israel to do what it likes because ‘good versus bad’. FFS.

    And why is your propaganda any more legit than mine?

    It was merely one example of how it’s completely disingenuous to make out that Israel is merely minding it’s business and all of a sudden is attacked. That’s just ridiculous.

    The Hamas Covenant still says what it says, your indignation notwithstanding.

    Well, outside the bubble, where the rest of us live.

    As if.

    I’m talking about that section of the US right who live in the little ‘Israel is always in the right, this is a simple case of goodies and badies’ bubble.

    Okay, show of hands — who of you right-wingers think “Israel is always in the right”? Hmm, about 1 1n a hundred, maybe. The problem is your generalization and mischaracterization, not those on the right who see Hamas using human shields to fight a war of perception in the media, with people like you falling for it every time. It’s not about “Israel is always in the right”, but about how Hamas sacrifice their people to wage a media-perception war. There are other methods of responding to “settlements keep getting built, and aquifers under Palestine are drained, children die because of the horrific conditions (which Israel controls)” beyond trying your best to kill civilian women and children, whether those of your enemy or your own.

    And the Hamas Covenant still says what it says, your indignation notwithstanding.

    Some explicitly support the destruction of Palestine, some go to great lengths to dehumanise the Palestinians.

    Yeah, and some support the utter destruction of both sides. So what? That’s no excuse to tar with the broad brush, mischaracterize the situation as “Israel is always in the right” and pretend that everyone who supports Israel does so “unconditionally”.

    This keeps happening though, and it will keep happening. Over and over again.

    Yes it will. It will probably happen even if aquifers under Palestine are never drained, and children never die because of the horrific conditions (which Israel controls). Those are just the latest excuses. Like I said, there are other ways to respond. But ultimately, it probably doesn’t matter, because Hamas’ current campaign and strategy appears to be working,

    Hamas’ Triumph

    Hamas, with perhaps unwitting help from President Barack Obama, is achieving its war aim: to legitimize Islamic supremacism and Jew-hatred, and take it global. Jews are no longer safe in Europe or even in some places in the U.S.

    Emphasis added:

    Hamas enjoys killing Israelis and Jews — “By God, we will not leave one Jew in Palestine,” one of its leaders, Abdel Aziz al-Rantisi, told Al Jazeera — but thanks to Israel’s self-defense, opportunities for that pleasure are limited. Hamas has successfully terrorized southern Israel — and more recently, central Israel — with its deliberate missile attacks on civilians, and they take satisfaction in that. But their chief aim and greatest victory is in forcing Israelis to kill Palestinians. It’s almost a matter of indifference to Hamas whether a dead child is an Israeli killed by a Hamas rocket deliberately aimed at a village or a Palestinian child killed because Israel returned fire and the launcher was located in a kindergarten. If it’s the latter, the child’s image becomes part of the psychological war on Israel.

    This script has been followed year after year. Elite world opinion seems incapable of seeing the truth — that every dead Palestinian civilian (and, of course, every Israeli) is a victim of Hamas. Maybe it’s just too pleasurable to indulge in guilt-free anti-Semitism. Notice that attacks in Europe have targeted synagogues, not Israeli embassies.

    But of course, this is just propaganda. Only stuff that supports Hamas/Palestinians is the “truth”.
    Back to your nonsense…

    Bombing a densely populated area full of civilians is a war crime because it’s impossible to do without killing loads of civilians.

    It’s a war crime (or it should be) to place rocket launchers in densely populated areas full of civilians and provoke your enemy by launching rockets from those launchers with the goal of killing civilians, whether your own or your enemy’s. The guilty party is Hamas, but you steadfastly refuse to see that.

    It is unrealistic for Hamas to think that it can somehow destroy Israel.

    Yes, it’s easier to scoff than it is to confront evil. Hamas isn’t alone in their goal. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has repeatedly called for Israel’s destruction, and Iran is relentlessly pursuing nuclear weapons capability. Who’s to say they wouldn’t work with Hamas to achieve their mutual goal? Besides you, of course?

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  58. Iconoclast says:

    It’s gospel. Their God is the real one after all.

    I know lots of people who are critical of what Israel are doing, and yet I’m pretty sure that not a single one of them believes that disputed land belongs to Allah.

    For the record, it was mrblume who initially brought religion into this:

    Think of it has me using a metaphor. Like Jesus would have.

    mrblume, July 12, 2014 1:04 PM

    He’s the one who opened the door, I’m just taking advantage of that fact. Besides, your mockery is non sequitur. Ultimately, possession is 99% of the law, Israel is in possession, and the Palestinians, from this particular perspective, can shove it.

    OTOH, if the Judeo-Christian God is real, which I believe He is, it still ultimately doesn’t matter how much you disbelieve. Events will unfold according to His plan, whether you like it or not, and even if His agents behave in a manner that fails to meet with your approval. If the Judeo-Christian God is real, which I believe He is, things are going to turn to major shit the world over, even in your little corner of the world, again no matter how much you may disapprove of His methods.

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  59. AlexInCT says:

    I’d love CM to tell the IDF to their faces their liars and baby killers.

    At best, they would tell him to take a long walk on a short pier. At worse, one of the female soldiers would give him a good ass kicking.

    Leftists have no problem accusing any civilized people they hate of being evil. That’s because they know there is very little risk in doing that. Calling Israelis and Christians, to name just two such groups frequently targeted for abuse by the hubristic left, all sorts of bad names, or equivocating like CM is doing right now, makes them look like they are being though. When is the last time you heard a leftist actually call the for-real bloodthirsty baby killers, like for example the palestinians, or any other rabid mooslims, names? Instead, they tippy toe all around their real and evil brutality, making excuses for them (“They killed people in Benghazi because of a bad video!” or “You drew a bad cartoon about Mohammad, so what did you expect?” are two of my favorites), while ignoring the cause celebre’s they love to bash others for (abortion, gay rights, women treated like real cattle). That’s because the left, despite their bravado, know and fear the real barbarians, even while making excuses for them.

    No, what I would like is for CM to tell the palestinians they are baby killers and that they should leave the Jews alone and live in peace, and to see what happens. They would gut him like a fish.

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  60. CM says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  61. Iconoclast says:

    http://i48.tinypic.com/hvzztc.jpg

    It is now that you have entered it, agreed.

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  62. Iconoclast says:

    Again you don’t just get to make shit up. That you keep doing it speaks volumes.

    That you cannot or will not differentiate between “making shit up” and illustrating how your whines come across speaks volumes.

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  63. CM says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  64. CM says:

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  65. Poosh says:

    Things are horrific and it’s pretty much got to the point that blatant anti-Semitism is on show in Europe now.

    Notice these protests almost never single out HAMAS to stop their murdering and onslaught. You can infer that the protesters have no problem, and, well, you can infer the logical reason behind that.

    Social media – and ignorance – have a lot to blame. Things are really grim.

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  66. CM says:

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  67. Poosh says:

    Oh sorry, I must have imagined all the Jews who have nothing to do with Israel being beaten, having the property smashed etc. From country to country. Or all the “Nazis should have finished the job” and “We’re all HAMAS” now banners.

    My mistake.

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  68. CM says:

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  69. Poosh says:

    You’re a complete contemptible joke.

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  70. CM says:

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  71. InsipiD says:

    Yeah, at July 9, 2014 5:15 am.

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  72. CM says:

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  73. CM says:

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  74. CM says:

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  75. Iconoclast says:

    Umm, I never claimed Hamas was “backed by Iran”. I only said they had a mutual goal in destroying Israel, and floated the possibility that Iran would work with Hamas to achieve that goal. What you quoted doesn’t refute that. On the contrary, it would seem to support it.

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  76. Poosh says:

    http://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2014/07/19/irans_fingerprints_all_over_hamasisrael_conflict.html

    “As former commander of British forces in Afghanistan and a seasoned analyst of terrorist groups, Col. Richard Kemp, told AFP: “Hamas were very badly damaged by the Israeli Defense Forces back in 2012, but since that time they have been re-equipped significantly by Iran and also by weapons from Syria. … As an Iranian-Canadian who has spent years raising awareness of human rights violations inside Iran, it grieves me that Tehran’s brutal agenda is now playing itself out in Israel and Gaza. Were it not for the Iranian regime’s extensive role in laying the foundation for the current war, the past few weeks may have been very different for Israelis and Palestinians”

    Anyway, here’ s just one example, in France, from a liberal source:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/07/22/france-jewish-shops-riot_n_5608612.html

    I assume most here have already read or seen what’s going on in Europe right now. But just in case.

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  77. CM says:

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  78. CM says:

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  79. Poosh says:

    “That is disgusting, but it’s not right to be lazy and tar all those who criticise Israel’s actions with the same brush.”

    Lucky that no one has done that then, isn’t it.

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  80. CM says:

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  81. CM says:

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  82. Poosh says:

    So wrong again, as usual CM, just pulling shit out of the air, as usual. As can be seen, I’ve done nothing as you suggest, certainly not consistently. You’d have to be a low-intelligence stain (like you) to think that as your failed attempt at evidence reveals.

    But I see what you’re doing – you’re building a strawman. Sigh. Do you actually think anyone falls for your crap?

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  83. CM says:

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  84. Poosh says:

    It’s not my fault you can’t understand words CM and have a nack for inferring whatever-the-hell-you-want from sentences.

    I’ve never said everyone (I would assume including myself? i.e the world) is an anti-Semite, if you want to take a phrase literally that’s your defective mind and problem. Here’s a pro-tip for you though buddy, if someone says “The whole world has gone mad!” they don’t mean literally every single human being on the planet.

    Nor did I say everyone who opposes Israel is an anti-Semite. It’s somewhat odd that you’re trying to push that though, makes me wonder about your agenda. I mean if you follow your own silly “evidence” that you think needs to be debunked you switch from accusing me of saying all who oppose Israel are jew-haters, to demonstrating by my own words that I don’t think that … before trying to show I think everyone is a jew-hater (so confusing following your non-logic btw) again. “, implying that MrPlume is an anti-Semite” < say what? so I want to make a point to someone and blam you trace it m.. just gonna cut off here.

    I think you're trying to push me into accusing you of being an anti-Semite, for whatever perverse game you're playing, something that isn't going to happen. I've never called you an antisemite and it's not gonna happen here.

    BTW anti-Semites, bar a handful of neo-nazis, generally don't stand up and admit they are such. That's another pro-tip for you.

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  85. Iconoclast says:

    Well I never claimed Hamas couldn’t destroy Israel if someone who could destroy Israel helped them. I was talking about Hamas.

    You tried to scoff at the notion of Hamas destroying Israel and failed to consider the possibility of alliance with Iran. Interesting that you consider the raising of that possibility to be “hypocritical game-playing”, but there you go.

    The whole world doesn’t hate Jews.

    This is factually incorrect. The only way that statement could be true is if everybody in the world didn’t hate Jews. Since that’s simply not the case, the statement is refuted before it was even written. Dolt.

    Wow, yeah you sure debunked that then, with your “as can be seen”. Case closed.

    Why not? You seem to think that saying “clearly” has the same effect. How is “clearly” any different from “as can be seen”?

    F-ing hypocrite…

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  86. Iconoclast says:

    In response to Iconclast’s response to MrPlume, implying that MrPlume is an anti-Semite.

    The only time I implied mrblume was an anti-Semite was in response to his implication that I am a racist. I merely took his inflamatory rhetoric and threw it back in his face. Not surprising in the least that you utterly failed to pick up on that…

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  87. Poosh says:

    @Iconoclast If I follow CM correctly I think he was saying I was calling MrPlume an anti-Semite (implying). I didn’t read MrPlume’s comments so can’t comment…

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  88. Iconoclast says:

    @Iconoclast If I follow CM correctly I think he was saying I was calling MrPlume an anti-Semite (implying).

    If that is the case, then I revise as follows:

    In response to Iconclast’s response to MrPlume, implying that MrPlume is an anti-Semite.

    CM, you need to learn how to NOT jump to stupid fucking conclusions. My response was to BOTH mrblume AND Poosh. If you read it carefully, the part where I discuss Jewish persecution through history is in direct response to Poosh’s July 13, 2014 8:48 PM posting. I even quoted part of it to provide the context, but you still managed to miss that, even though you yourself quoted part of the same post in your response to Poosh (July 29, 2014 8:22 PM).

    Bottom line, Poosh did NOT imply that mrblume was an anti-Semite in his response to my post. I did, by throwing his inflammatory rhetoric back in his face (July 25, 2014 1:50 PM).

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  89. CM says:

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  90. Poosh says:

    “As above, there is plenty of clear evidence that that is what you think and zero evidence against it.”

    I think only an absolute cretin of an individual would actually think that was the case. Like you CM.

    Do you know what the word “consistent” means? Maybe you should look it up.

    I DO think you’re protesting a little too much, it makes me very suspicious.

    Not gonna bother responding to your contradictory ramblings, or even read through them all. It takes quite a dumbass to claim someone thinks everyone who “opposes Israel is an anti-Semite” whilst bringing up a direct quote that contradicts that claim as evidence. You’re just a dumb person CM.

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  91. Poosh says:

    ok just so we wingnuts are pushed out of this bubble or what not, here’s some bubble bursting ammo:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2693423/Jewish-vigilantes-rampage-Paris-attack-pro-Palestinian-demonstrators.html#ixzz37eGsa9cM%20

    OH WAIT, it’s the Daily Mail. Automatic lies in CM land. Discard…

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  92.   
  93. Iconoclast says:

    Hamas don’t have the ability to destroy Israel.

    The real point is that, as long as that’s their goal, whether it’s achievable or not, what it means is that there simply will not be peace in the region as long as Israel exists.

    “Backed by” or “working with”- where is the meaningful difference?

    Well, in my use of the phrases, “backed by” was past tense while “working with” was future tense. My meaning was that I didn’t claim that Iran backed Hamas (past tense), only that they might work together in the future toward a mutual goal. But let’s not let a little detail like that stop us from foaming at the mouth…

    And again.

    Just throwing your pedantry back in your face.

    I’m sorry that your penis is so small and that you constantly feel the need to compensate.

    You’re projecting again. I’m embarrassed for you, bro.

    All irrelevant anyway as Israel are simply bombing power plants, hospitals, ambulances and shelters “ACCIDENTALLY” on a daily basis because it’s fulfilling religious prophesy.

    I never said that — that’s just you twisting what I said in your typically perverse manner. I simply said the reclaiming of their homeland was religious prophecy, and that if the Judeo-Christian God exists, then events will unfold according to His plan. That doesn’t mean “bombing power plants, hospitals, ambulances and shelters” is part of His plan, only that whatever His plan is, it will come to pass.

    You’ve all but admitted that logic and reason and rationale and legitimacy and whether civilian deaths are accidents or not are all completely irrelevant.

    Where have I allegedly “all but admitted” this? What I have done is state that Hamas use people as human shields, and place their rocket launchers in densely populated areas. You’re tired of hearing that. Well, too bad. That doesn’t make it not true.

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  94. CM says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  95. Iconoclast says:

    Both sides are seeking to carry out ‘God’s Will’.

    Yeah, and you try to pass judgement on my rationality? I never said Israel was seeking “God’s Will”, only that God’s Plan would unfold regardless of what Hamas or Israel seek. But in truth, Israel is a very secular nation — it’s Hamas that’s driven to a large degree by religious fervor, not Israel. No, by all appearance, the only thing Israel seeks is survival as a sovereign state.

    well unless you’re sure it’s God’s Will, then you’d be silly to fight against it, and you’d give blind and unqualified support to Israel and not give two shits about methods – which is why you’ve counted yourself out from being taken seriously on any of this

    I quoted this merely to chuckle at its irrationality, and at you for implying you are being rational, when you’re clearly being emotional instead.

    I don’t really do mouth-foaming.

    And now I’m laughing out loud!

    It certainly seems to allow people to justify a whole lot of bad shit.

    People will use anything to justify bad shit. Charles Manson used a freaking Beatles song, for Marx sake. But you cannot blame the object being used for the justification. You need to blame the people using the object to justify their behavior.

    You’ve removed yourself from any discussion involving logic, rationality, reason, or morality.

    As if you’re in any position to judge…

    Again, my statements were qualified, and contingent upon God’s existence. My statements were in the form of “if A then B”, with the clear implication of “if not A then not B”. Claiming that such is “removed from … logic, rationality, reason” is simply absurd. You cannot get any more fundamentally logical than “if A then B”.

    If you want to try an use the “which I believe He is” to justify your absurdity, then feel free to demonstrate how belief in God is “removed from … logic, rationality, reason” at your earliest convenience.

    Saying something over and over doesn’t necessarily make it true, or at least doesn’t make it true all the time.

    Doesn’t make it false, either, nor does mere denial.

    FactCheck: Does Hamas use civilians as human shields?

    Credible reports from journalists in Gaza suggest some civilians are choosing to stay in their homes, ignoring warnings of imminent destructions that the Israeli military gives via telephone calls or empty shells “knocking on the roof”.

    On the same day as Mr Abu Zuhri was broadcasting Hamas’s message, the New York Times reported the fate of a Palestinian man, Salah Kaware, who received a telephone warning that his house in Khan Younis in south east Gaza was about to be hit by the IDF.

    The newspaper reported that another warning came as the occupants were leaving, when an Israeli drone fired a flare at the roof of the three-storey home.

    “Our neighbours came in to form a human shield,” Mr Kaware said, with some even going up on to the roof to try to prevent a bombing.

    And, to let you know that this isn’t more “bubble” talk…

    The verdict

    Hamas has made no secret of its policy of encouraging civilians to face down Israeli attacks “with their bare chests”.

    But we don’t know how many people have followed this advice, so it’s difficult to say how far Hamas can be blamed for the civilian deaths.

    We do know that rockets have been stored in UN-run schools, which may or may not add credibility to Israel’s broader claims that Hamas has a habit of operating in civilian areas.

    Even if all these things turn out to be true, they may not exonerate Israel from the accusation of war crimes being levelled by the UN’s human rights chief Navi Pillay.

    Israel’s conduct could still be found to be “indiscriminate” or “disproportionate” if it led to excessive civilian casualties or failed to distinguish between military and civilian targets, regardless of the behaviour of Hamas.

    If you really had an issue with that then you’d have criticised, or at least questioned, Israel for doing the same thing.

    Yes, it’s inexcusable when Israeli soldiers do this, but notice a difference, here. Your own cite states that the Israeli Supreme Court ruled against this practice, and that the practice is illegal. So, you see, there really is no comparison in terms of official policy, and that’s the real point. Hamas calls for the practice while Israel officially forbids it.

    (and fuck anyone who disapproves of His methods, right, their arguments are irrelevant, as it morality)

    I never said or implied this. That you keep repeating it indicates your own irrational hatred of religion. The rest of your irrational rant is ignored and dismissed.

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  96. InsipiD says:

    Clearly we’ve found the subject about which CM can’t honestly discuss. He’s too busy declaring us to be in a bubble, like he’s trying to force a belittling new term, to honestly look at any comparison of the situations.

    The full retard, indeed.

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  97. Poosh says:

    Channel 4 News has been heavily anti-Israeli, their lead presenter Jon Snow (probable anti-Semite, half-confirmed with his unguarded “what is called the Jewish lobby” comment) is a particularly vile individual (of course he is well loved in the UK purely because he comes across as nicely and grandadish).

    For even Channel 4 to admit that Hamas use human shields is quite telling. That being said a host of cretin and irrational ***** seem to disagree in the comments section… with probably one of the only decent articles out of Channel 4. Oh well…

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  98. richtaylor365 says:

    Poosh, you should cut the poor guy some slack. Refused legitimacy by his father, spurned by his step mother, banished to The Night’s Watch to find himself, and even getting 3 arrows in the breadbasket from the only ass he ever had, he has had a tough go of it.

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  99. Poosh says:

    After Jon Snow’s rather pathetic “omg think of the children of Gaza” video which went viral all many could say is … … you know nothing Jon Snow

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  100. mrblume says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  101. AlexInCT says:

    Hamas is terrible, now lets talk about Israel.

    We already did dickwad. Your puerile attempt lacks any credibility and reeks of desperation. I, for one, pointed out that no other country in the world would put up with the shit Israel is made to put up with. If this shit was being done to any European nation or the US, they would start a war with their neighbors. Several of us pointed out that if the fucking barbarians put their arms down there would be peace, while if Israel did that there would be a whole sale slaughter. Israel has been forced to accept idiotic concession after concession from people that have sworn it’s destruction. There is nothing else to say about Israel unless your objective is to help the blood drinking barbarian’s cause.

    To me Israel’s crime is that it continues to hold back, and worse, listen to anti-semites like Obama, Kerry, and so many others that pretend they are telling Israel to bear it’s throat to the wolves, because that will make the barbarian murderers suddenly act civilized, when they knew exactly what they are doing. Fuck the lot of you.

    I am not Jewish, and have no skin in the game other than I know evil when I see it. And these blood thirsty barbarians dead set on genocide and the spread of their despicable cult, are evil. We better accept that reality before they are knocking at our door.

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  102. Iconoclast says:

    Hamas is terrible, now lets talk about Israel.

    Why? You and CM haven’t demonized Israel enough, yet?

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  103. Poosh says:

    It is quite right to look a the errors of Israel and hold them to a greater standard seeing as we would do the same thing for ourselves. Though prospective is needed of course.

    But whenever I find some possible valid issues with Israel, after a bit of research Israel seems justified. The most I can find is Jewish fanatics, settlers etc. Basically ruining things for every one – but they’re a small number of racists/thugs as with every country. They are not the norm which one can’t say the same for the “Palestinians” who seem just like every other fanatical arab grouping.

    I also cannot seem to find any evidence of a Palestinian people.. I can’t fund a mish-mash of arabs – Jordanians and Egyptians but no Palestinian nation or actual grounded culture. …

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  104. CM says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  105. CM says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  106. CM says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  107. CM says:

    I also cannot seem to find any evidence of a Palestinian people.. I can’t fund a mish-mash of arabs – Jordanians and Egyptians but no Palestinian nation or actual grounded culture. …

    What is your aim with this? Palestinians are the Arab population that hail from the land Israel now controls. What does “an actual grounded culture” have to do with anything?

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  108. Iconoclast says:

    Who are these ‘agents’ in this case? What is the ‘manner’ that fails to meet with my approval?

    The Israelis and their military. Killing Palestinian civilians.

    I’m not the one explaining (and attempting to legitimise) something via religious faith.

    Neither am I. I am merely saying that if God exists, certain things will happen, regardless of what you, I, the IDF or Hamas do or think. Part of those certain things will be the continued existence of Israel, even if you personally think the Israelis have committed “war crimes” or whatever.

    Obviously, if there is no God, then all bets are off in that regard. The only difference is that I see the situation under the assumption that God exists, and you see it under the assumption at He doesn’t. If Israel were to cease existing for any reason, then, from my vantage point, my assumption would obviously be wrong and yours correct. I am not saying that I “unconditionally” support Israel because GOD like you stupidly insist. I merely say that Israel’s existence supports my belief, considering its unprecedented nature (ancient people conquered and taken from their homeland, scattered to the winds, suffering endless persecution, yet maintaining their identity through the centuries and reclaiming there homeland in these latter days, just like ancient prophecies predicted).

    The only reason I brought God into the discussion at all is because mrblume did, by pretending to be like Jesus. If he never did that, then I, in all likelihood, never would have mentioned God.

    That’s like saying that if I flip a coin and heads I get to murder you and tails I don’t…

    Only if you’re an irrational moron.

    …and then when I flip heads, well, the decision was made rationally.

    Um, no, the decision would, by definition, have been made randomly, not rationally. Rational decision-making involves weighing available evidence, not flipping coins. And killing someone in cold blood is never rational.

    YOU believe it. There is no hypothetical, so why falsely pretend that there is? Well other than to try and pretend there is rationality and logic behind what it means.

    I believe WHAT? The idiocy you just stated? The hopelessly stupid notion that flipping coins leads to rational decisions regarding committing murder? No, apparently YOU are the sick motherfucker who believes THAT. You’re simply proceeding from a false premise, that mere belief in God’s existence somehow justifies murder at some insane level. I never said that, never implied that, that’s completely on you.

    Because it requires faith. Logic, rationality and reason doesn’t.

    Yes, they do. They require faith in them, and in one’s own intellect. The problem is that the intellect is prone to human failing, error, decay. One who is clinically insane may honestly believe themselves to be quite rational, and that it’s everyone else who has a problem…

    Ah but I’m not claiming that it’s always false (I’ve already said I believe they DO sometimes do it), whereas you and others have never qualified your parroting of the official Israel position…

    I’ve never qualified it???

    Assuming the truth of this claim for the sake of argument, that may be due to Palestinian leadership using its civilians as human shields.

    Iconoclast, July 9, 2014 1:03 PM

    That was the very first thing I said in this thread. What part of “may be due” does your addled mind refuse to comprehend?

    “Official policy” is just a convenient cover if it keeps happening.

    IF IT KEEPS HAPPENING. So far, there is the one confirmed case, and it’s possible that the sentence was light because, after all, nobody was harmed. But, no, that doesn’t excuse the behavior.

    (including sleeping children in a UN shelter where they were specifically told to go)

    If this is confirmed, then yes, it is a problem and no, “human shields” wouldn’t mitigate it, unless Hamas also parked a rocket launcher there. If we can confirm that the IDF bombed a UN shelter and that there were no Hamas assets there, then yes, you have a legitimate complaint. But I’m only saying that there are rocket launchers in civilian areas, and therefore, those civilians are being used as human shields. This would be true regardless of whether the IDF even targeted those particular assets.

    I don’t even remotely hate religion.

    Well, your twisted arguments scream otherwise.

    And failing to use qualifiers…

    “Indicates” is a qualifier, moron.

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  109. richtaylor365 says:

    unless Hamas also parked a rocket launcher there

    Uh oh;

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nu-e5qWXx-k

    Same with all those reports of Hamas storing rockets and munitions of all types in UN run hospitals, all propaganda.

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  110. richtaylor365 says:

    CM knows (or at least he should) that Israel is not a theocracy, not run within the confines of any religion or religious book, it is a parliamentary democracy, so all this crap about them feeling justified in doing any damn thing they want regardless of the consequence or the morality is just that, crap. And because it is common knowledge that the actions taken are strictly for survival (as any other nation would do) and not the fulfillment of any prophecy or special dispensation given by God, he is only bloviating, with no real aim or purpose, like we haven’t seen that a couple hundred times.

    I guess he does not know that being Jewish is ethnic, not religious, hence the existence of Jewish atheists, maybe the very same people running the country.

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  111. richtaylor365 says:

    Image and video hosting by TinyPic

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  112. CM says:

    Neither am I. I am merely saying that if God exists, certain things will happen, regardless of what you, I, the IDF or Hamas do or think. Part of those certain things will be the continued existence of Israel, even if you personally think the Israelis have committed “war crimes” or whatever.

    How is that not explaining (and attempting to legitimise) something via religious faith?
    What it predicts in the Bible could happen solely because those who believe in God determine that they should be acting as his agents, and so they carry it out. God might not even exist. whether he exists is irrelevant to that. In which case it’s absolutely a case of people acting in the name of God. If they succeed those who believe in that God will point to it and say “there we go, proof” even though it may be nothing more than people believing it and deciding to make it happen.
    Just like Hamas.

    The only difference is that I see the situation under the assumption that God exists, and you see it under the assumption at He doesn’t.

    I’m fairly sure he doesn’t but I’m still open to the possibility. I have had no indication or seen nothing to suggest that he does but I’m not sure I’m want to be close-minded about it.

    I merely say that Israel’s existence supports my belief, considering its unprecedented nature (ancient people conquered and taken from their homeland, scattered to the winds, suffering endless persecution, yet maintaining their identity through the centuries and reclaiming there homeland in these latter days, just like ancient prophecies predicted).

    As above, if that happened because people made it happen because they believed it said it in the bible, then that doesn’t make God any more real. So why should it support your belief? That’s a potentially self-fulfilling situation.

    The only reason I brought God into the discussion at all is because mrblume did, by pretending to be like Jesus. If he never did that, then I, in all likelihood, never would have mentioned God.

    Well I’m glad you did because it brings an entirely different dimension to all our discussions. Now I know your overall perspective on…..everything.

    Um, no, the decision would, by definition, have been made randomly, not rationally. Rational decision-making involves weighing available evidence, not flipping coins. And killing someone in cold blood is never rational.

    Whether one believes in God (and which God or Gods) is to at least some degree a product of brain chemistry and the accident of geography (family, community, country). Nothing rational about those – they are random.

    I believe WHAT?

    That God exists. End-times prophesy.

    Yes, they do. They require faith in them, and in one’s own intellect.

    Well of course the ability to use logic, rationality and reason will differ from person to person. But using them, or attempting to use them, doesn’t require a leap of faith. Religious belief is inherently a leap of faith.

    That was the very first thing I said in this thread.

    Ok, yep, sorry, I missed that one.

    IF IT KEEPS HAPPENING. So far, there is the one confirmed case, and it’s possible that the sentence was light because, after all, nobody was harmed. But, no, that doesn’t excuse the behavior.

    The report found several cases. All we can say is that the Israeli military court have only passed a sentence once, which could be evidence that it remains only technically illegal but implicitly encouraged.

    What is of the official policy on engaging targets in close proximity to large amounts of civilians? On taking out civilian infrastructure like the only power station?

    If this is confirmed, then yes, it is a problem and no, “human shields” wouldn’t mitigate it, unless Hamas also parked a rocket launcher there.

    Who determines whether it would mitigate it?
    International law says that unlawful strikes in Gaza are ones that either do not attack a legitimate military target or attack despite the likelihood of civilian casualties being disproportionate to the military gain.
    Even if it’s confirmed, what would it mean? Nothing. There will be any meaningful accountability. There never is, why would this time be any different. If anything, findings such as those would simply enrage and isolate Israel even more.

    But I’m only saying that there are rocket launchers in civilian areas, and therefore, those civilians are being used as human shields. This would be true regardless of whether the IDF even targeted those particular assets.

    Given the population density and the lack of anywhere to go, that’s close to meaningless. It’s essentially saying that armed resistance to occupation, blockade and settlement expansion is automatically “using civilians as human shields”.

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  113. CM says:

    Same with all those reports of Hamas storing rockets and munitions of all types in UN run hospitals, all propaganda

    Not even remotely close to what I wrote Rich.

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  114. CM says:

    Rich your image just confirms the ridiculous binary tribal nonsense that is a significant part of this whole issue. The comparison is absurd.

    People really don’t have to choose between being “pro-Israel” or “pro-Palestine.” If you support secularism, democracy, and a two-state solution – and you oppose Hamas, settlement expansion, and the occupation – you can be both.

    And because it is common knowledge that the actions taken are strictly for survival (as any other nation would do)

    How is expanding settlements in the West Bank “strictly for survival”?
    Which other nations occupy land, operate a blockade, and build settlements within the occupied land?

    and not the fulfillment of any prophecy or special dispensation given by God

    So if that’s not what the settlements are about (claiming back the disputed land bit by bit, making a two state solution impossible) then what is the rationale?

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  115. richtaylor365 says:

    Not even remotely close to what I wrote Rich.

    Why does everything have to be about you? My comment had nothing to do with what you wrote, it was affirming all those reports we have been reading of late that UN affiliated hospitals have been found to be storing Hamas weapons. Then when Icon asked about rocket firings in close proximity, I could not resist linking to a real live reporter who witnessed first hand this exact thing happening.

    Rich your image just confirms the ridiculous binary tribal nonsense that is a significant part of this whole issue. The comparison is absurd.

    Agreed, pushing Obama to a position of friend or enemy of Israel denies his true character, he is neither. Israel cannot further his agenda, cannot host fundraisers or even provide him a golf course for relaxation, he is the consummate “What can you do for me” president, hence, he devotes his limited brain power of things closer to home.

    How is expanding settlements in the West Bank “strictly for survival”?

    Seriously, you don’t know? Think about it for a moment, think about what has happened to them in their very limited life as a nation, think about the wars they have had to fight, think about their adversaries and how they are completely surrounded, think about the land they won fair and square and ultimately gave back, think about all the consolations they have made, given all that has happened to them, the constant attacks, you don’t think expanding a buffer zone of security (whether you agree with the legality or not) is their ultimate goal?

    Many legal scholars( and international precedent) have stated that a country acting in self-defense may seize and occupy territory when necessary to protect itself. And, as a condition of withdrawal the occupying power may require security measures designed to ensure its citizens are not menaced again from that territory, no such assurances have been made by the Palestinians. Considering that Sinai, Gaza, the West Bank, and Golan Heights were all won and secured through conflict, some might consider all that land as Israeli owned. Even UN resolution 242 gives legitimacy and legality to occupying the West Bank.

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  116. CM says:

    Why does everything have to be about you?

    It doesn’t, I took it as a response to my suggestions that both sides use propaganda heavily, and it’s often difficult to know what is propaganda and what is real.

    Remember during Operation Cast Lead Israel accused UNRWA of transporting Hamas rockets in a UN ambulance, a charge it later retracted. I wonder how many people realise that it was retracted? I wonder how many just “added to the pile”?

    all those reports we have been reading of late that UN affiliated hospitals have been found to be storing Hamas weapons

    To be accurate (god forbid), weapons caches have been found in three schools (schools had been closed up for the summer holidays and were not being used as shelters). Which appears to be fact (unless the UN have a reason to lie about it?). But which is still different from bombing a power plant and having six schools hit. The UN says 95 of its installations in Gaza have been damaged since the start of the conflict, in 135 strikes that include at least 10 direct hits.
    Storing of weapons obviously falls well short of the required threshold to make it a lawful target. I assume the argument is that if they’re storing weapons there, they’re shooting missiles from there. But that’s still to be shown in each specific case. EVEN if they were, it still clearly wouldn’t meet the legal threshold, especially when the specific school is being used as a shelter for civilians. Civilian deaths cannot be disproportionate to any military advantage gained by the other party. In case of doubt, the property should be presumed to be civilian.

    None of that excuses what Hamas do though, they are a despicable terrorist organisation.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/31/why-hamas-stores-its-weapons-inside-hospitals-mosques-and-schools/

    Agreed, pushing Obama to a position of friend or enemy of Israel denies his true character, he is neither.

    IMO pushing someone away from being able to act as an honest broker isn’t in anyone’s longterm interests.

    Seriously, you don’t know? Think about it for a moment, think about what has happened to them in their very limited life as a nation, think about the wars they have had to fight, think about their adversaries and how they are completely surrounded, think about the land they won fair and square and ultimately gave back, think about all the consolations they have made, given all that has happened to them, the constant attacks, you don’t think expanding a buffer zone of security (whether you agree with the legality or not) is their ultimate goal?

    Look at the sizes of Israel and of Gaza and of the West Bank. They have plenty of room for a buffer zone within Israel. There is far less room within Gaza and the West Bank.
    None of what you have stated provides a justification for expanding settlements into the West Bank. It simply makes it more baffling that they would preemptively keep acting in such an aggressive manner. Unless the goal is to ensure they never have to agree to a two-state solution. Then it makes perfect sense. But how is that sustainable in the long run? It isn’t. Support for Israel will keep dropping as long as this goes on.

    Many legal scholars( and international precedent) have stated that a country acting in self-defense may seize and occupy territory when necessary to protect itself.

    Got some supporting links/sources for that?

    Even UN resolution 242 gives legitimacy and legality to occupying the West Bank.

    The preamble to that resolution refers to the “inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war…..”

    Lord Caradon, the chief author of the resolution:
    It was from occupied territories that the Resolution called for withdrawal. The test was which territories were occupied. That was a test not possibly subject to any doubt. As a matter of plain fact East Jerusalem, the West Bank, Gaza, the Golan and Sinai were occupied in the 1967 conflict. It was on withdrawal from occupied territories that the Resolution insisted.

    Lord Caradon also maintained,
    We didn’t say there should be a withdrawal to the ’67 line; we did not put the ‘the’ in, we did not say all the territories, deliberately.. We all knew – that the boundaries of ’67 were not drawn as permanent frontiers, they were a cease-fire line of a couple of decades earlier… We did not say that the ’67 boundaries must be forever; it would be insanity.[75]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_242

    Even the contrary viewpoint (arguing the against the author of the resolution, an inherent uphill battle you’d have thought) doesn’t explicitly mention the West Bank.
    Again, not as simple or clear-cut as you’d like to make out.

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  117. richtaylor365 says:

    Again, not as simple or clear-cut as you’d like to make out.

    The only one that has indicated simplicity in this matter is you;
    Israel is killing innocent civilians
    Israel is not justified in establishing their settlements
    Israel is needlessly targeting non military sites
    The main reason I have stayed out of this discussion is the very reason that it is complicated, but whereas you have doggedly latched on to your stridency, I and to a some degree Icon, have tried to get you to walk a mile in their moccasins and try to understand their precarious existence, constantly under fire from rocket attacks.

    http://www.jewishvoiceblog.org/2014/07/22/80-percent-israel-bomb-shelters/

    Take a long hard look at that chart, not very much time to react, is there?

    There are some in the West who tell us, we support Israel’s right to defend itself… as long as you don’t exercise that right. Well what else could we do, what would you do… if 80 percent of your people were in bomb shelters? (Times of Israel)

    The IDF Blog site notes “Most of the Israeli population is currently living under the threat of rocket fire. Life between sirens, in and out of bomb shelters, has become the daily reality for millions of Israelis.”

    To be accurate (god forbid), weapons caches have been found in three schools

    So far, you think they have no more rockets? And that link I posted has an eye witness account of a rocket being fired from hospital grounds, why fire a rocket from a hospital? Come on, I know you know the answer to that. Yet despite tactics like these, and the use of human shields the IDF has gone out if its way (as my prior links have indicated) to limit human casualties, if only the Palestinians cared for its people the same way.

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  118. richtaylor365 says:

    Civilian deaths cannot be disproportionate to any military advantage gained by the other party.

    Says the guy, fat and safe, firmly ensconced in suburbia, sans any bomb shelters or air raid sirens. I think I will leave it up those that have suffered through this to determine what is proportionate to their safety.

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  119. CM says:

    The only one that has indicated simplicity in this matter is you;
    Israel is killing innocent civilians
    Israel is not justified in establishing their settlements
    Israel is needlessly targeting non military sites

    That’s hilarious Rich. And ridiculous in equal measure. I bring up these things in an attempt to provide some semblance of balance to a completely unbalanced discussion. And I don’t bring them up free of context.
    And yet your response is essentially “no, you are”.
    Whatever.

    The main reason I have stayed out of this discussion is the very reason that it is complicated,

    And you wouldn’t want to bring that up here, no siree, look where it gets you. Ridiculous nonsense.

    but whereas you have doggedly latched on to your stridency,

    Right, that it’s a lot more complicated than others have made out. That’s what I keep stridently saying. By pointing out things that are ignored because they’re contrary to the “israel is just a victim again’ narrative.

    I and to a some degree Icon, have tried to get you to walk a mile in their moccasins and try to understand their precarious existence, constantly under fire from rocket attacks.

    What do I not understand about the fear of Israelis from rocket attacks?
    Other than it’s hardly as precarious as you make it, and they’re not “constantly” under fire – Iron Dome takes care of a lot, almost all of the rest fail to hit anything, and there was no (or close to no) Hamas rockets for over a year or so before this latest exchange.
    Not that rocket fire is excusable (it isn’t) or that Israeli’s should live in fear that they might be the unlucky one that gets hit. That is certainly not a nice way to live (certainly not nearly as shitty as living in a shitty occupation, but not nice all the same). Of course the Israeli’s could look to their own leaders and ask questions, but apparently they must think this is all heading in the right direction.
    I do accept that I find it difficult, if not impossible, to “walk a mile’ in the shoes of someone who adheres to End Times prophesy.

    Take a long hard look at that chart, not very much time to react, is there?

    Nope. And given what Israel has done, it’s only going to continue. How could it not? What, the killing of 2000, largely civilians, with a high number of them being children, will make Hamas weaker, will weaken the resolve at armed resistance to what’s being going on in Gaza? Insanity.

    Where does Iron Dome figure in these IDF assessments?

    The defense system has been highly effective in the current round of violence between Israel and Hamas militants in the Gaza Strip. It allows Israel’s military to shoot down incoming rockets or mortars headed toward major population centers in Israel. Israeli officials say it has a success rate as high as 90 percent.

    But not even a mention by the IDF. WTF?

    So far, you think they have no more rockets?

    No idea how many they have. I assume they’ve got heaps. And?

    And that link I posted has an eye witness account of a rocket being fired from hospital grounds, why fire a rocket from a hospital?

    Because Hamas military are a bunch of fucktard arseholes. But that doesn’t mean all rockets are fired from hospitals and schools, and it certainly doesn’t excuse those facilities being bombed by Israel (which seems to be very clearly an international war crime, whether you like that or not). And it doesn’t mean that Israel spread propaganda.

    Come on, I know you know the answer to that.

    Yes because I’ve said so repeatedly that I believe it happens. How did you miss all that?

    Yet despite tactics like these, and the use of human shields the IDF has gone out if its way (as my prior links have indicated) to limit human casualties,

    Well given the amount and percentage of civilians killed and UN shelters and schools housing people being attacked (not to mention hugely important civilian infrastructure being taken out via multiple attacks), the IDF propaganda is pretty much dead in the water. Do you not realise how much of a minority you’re in, still clinging on grimly to that?
    Personally I don’t see any motive for Israel purposely targeting civilians, but I also don’t see how this could have happened to this scale unless there was ongoing carelessness.

    f only the Palestinians cared for its people the same way.

    i

    If only Hamas military did you mean. For most of the time Hamas is a social welfare agency (yes, they get people on side by providing basic supplies – they have a very convenient operation going on there). Treating Palestinians the same as Hamas military may be convenient, but it’s not helpful or accurate.

    Says the guy, fat and safe, firmly ensconced in suburbia, sans any bomb shelters or air raid sirens. I think I will leave it up those that have suffered through this to determine what is proportionate to their safety.

    Actually says the world, following considerable experience, assessment and discussion. The whole point is not to leave it up to the people at the time, as they can and will invariably justify anything.
    Who told you I’m fat ?! ;-)

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  120. CM says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  121. CM says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  122. mrblume says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  123. CM says:

    One more thing….

    you don’t think expanding a buffer zone of security (whether you agree with the legality or not) is their ultimate goal?

    Who builds residential settlements as a buffer? If you were trying to create a buffer, wouldn’t that be the last thing you’d have?

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  124. richtaylor365 says:

    Uh oh, Sunday’s Gaza school attack now appears to be staged;

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSkFQqutEpk

    Is that both Optimus Prime and Wolverine in the background?

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  125. richtaylor365 says:

    More here;

    BREAKING Lead Kidnapper of Three Israeli Boys Arrested (Admits He Works For Hamas)

    http://yidwithlid.blogspot.com/2014/08/breaking-lead-kidnapper-of-three.html?utm_source=co2hog&m=1

    And;

    Indian television crew films Hamas setting up rockets outside its hotel

    http://israelmatzav.blogspot.com/2014/08/indian-television-crew-films-hamas.html?m=0#links

    A French reporter says “ditto”

    http://therightscoop.com/french-reporter-who-ran-after-hamas-rocket-launched-next-to-him-changes-his-tune-exposes-hamas-using-human-shields/

    I expect more equivocations from the usual suspects here.

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  126. CM says:

    Ah right yes because we’re all just big Hamas supporters. All the words written about Hamas being fucktard arseholes and using people as shields doesn’t actually exist.
    What planet are you on at the moment? Probably worth checking.

    You going to address everything else above? How about this one as well?
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2715466/Israeli-official-calls-concentration-camps-Gaza-conquest-entire-Gaza-Strip-annihilation-fighting-forces-supporters.html

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  127. richtaylor365 says:

    And we have another mrblume like idiotic comparison, kidnapping/murder and indiscriminate rocket launchings for the sole purpose of killing innocent civilians, placed up against some dopey Facebook posting. Thanks for comedic relief, you never fail.

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  128. CM says:

    Um, who said it was meant to be any sort of comparison?

    Thanks for comedic relief, you never fail.

    No problem Alex. Although making shit up is obviously what makes it somehow funny, so you pat yourself on the back. And be sure to keep ignoring all that is inconvenient, that’s what the bubble is for after all. :-)

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  129. CM says:

    placed up against some dopey Facebook posting

    What makes it “dopey”?
    (1) The guy is the deputy speaker of the Knesset. He’s not an obscure blogger for the Times of Israel. He is a luminary of the Likud – he got 23 percent of the vote in a contest for the Likud Party leadership. He was appointed to his current high position by Netanyahu.
    (2) It’s a specific and detailed plan:

    a) The IDF [Israeli army] shall designate certain open areas on the Sinai border, adjacent to the sea, in which the civilian population will be concentrated, far from the built-up areas that are used for launches and tunneling. In these areas, tent encampments will be established, until relevant emigration destinations are determined. The supply of electricity and water to the formerly populated areas will be disconnected.

    b) The formerly populated areas will be shelled with maximum fire power. The entire civilian and military infrastructure of Hamas, its means of communication and of logistics, will be destroyed entirely, down to their foundations.

    c) The IDF will divide the Gaza Strip laterally and crosswise, significantly expand the corridors, occupy commanding positions, and exterminate nests of resistance, in the event that any should remain.

    The usual response to this kind of thing among the lockstep pro-Israel community is that it is a tiny fringe opinion. But looks like as that fails those in the bubble will just dismiss it out-of-hand as merely “dopey Facebook posting”.
    Equivocations indeed.

    Here is yet another “dopey Facebook posting” from Ayelet Shaked, a member of the Israeli Parliament (written the day before the gruesome lynching of an Arab teen who was forced to drink gasoline and then burned to death by Jewish extremists. Note that her call for war came before any Hamas rocket was fired):

    Behind every terrorist stand dozens of men and women, without whom he could not engage in terrorism. They are all enemy combatants, and their blood shall be on all their heads. Now this also includes the mothers of the martyrs, who send them to hell with flowers and kisses. They should follow their sons, nothing would be more just. They should go, as should the physical homes in which they raised the snakes. Otherwise, more little snakes will be raised there.

    http://mondoweiss.net/2014/08/knesset-genocide-against.html

    As you did earlier (conflating Hamas military with Palestinians) they dispense with the distinction between civilians and militants in Gaza.

    (some of this quoted or paraphrased from http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2014/08/05/the-last-and-first-temptation-of-israel/)

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  130. richtaylor365 says:

    What makes it “dopey”?

    Oh, so it’s not dopey? It has your enthusiastic approval? You should log on to his Facebook site and give him a hearty thumbs up, but I think it’s dopey.

    And if you look at this guys wiki page;

    ” He opposes a two-state solution and advocates that Israel annex the West Bank and Gaza. Feiglin opposes equal citizenship for Israel’s Arab minority. On foreign policy, Feiglin is a firm believer in self-reliance, advocating that Israel take care of its security problems alone and not accept foreign aid from the US.”

    I like his stance on accepting US foreign aid, but he is clearly a fringe player. Last time I checked the Israeli government does not formulate policy off of a Facebook page, when they do, let me know and we can discuss this dopey proposition.

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  131. richtaylor365 says:

    And I can’t let this one slip

    (conflating Hamas military with Palestinians)

    So Hamas has a military now? Did you look at that link I just posted, the video of the Indian guy that watched Palestinians setting up and shooting a rocket? Did you see any uniforms? Did you see anyone in the area that was dressed in uniforms? Does the Hamas military have rank? The guy in a white shirt must be a SGT, and the guy in camo must be a private. Does the Hamas military have any type of basic training where they enlist for a certain amount of time then swear that they will uphold the Constitution of the Muslim Brotherhood? So in your little mind anyone that fires rockets (including both transportation and assembly) must be part of the Hamas military?

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  132. CM says:

    Oh, so it’s not dopey?

    Well it’s not obscure at all, not just random one-off rantings by some nobody. As you’ve pointed out, it’s consistent with his position, and yet this guy is clearly very popular and in a position of some authority.

    And I can’t let this one slip

    LMAO – as opposed to everything else…..;-)

    So Hamas has a military now?

    They have active fighters who actively send rockets into Israel. What would you like to call them? Are you utterly unable to differentiate between all people within Palestine?

    So in your little mind anyone that fires rockets (including both transportation and assembly) must be part of the Hamas military?

    That’s certainly what I mean. I wasn’t using the term in the strictest sense. Would ‘combatants’ be more accurate? Regardless, it’s hilarious that you’re attacking my accuracy in specifically defining these people correctly, when the whole point is that you seemingly don’t wish to go beyond considering them as one single group.

    No matter, I’ll continue to file this issue alongside ‘climate change’ as one of those huge self-isolating willfully-ignorant-blind spots some on the American right have, and are proud of.

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  133. richtaylor365 says:

    Well it’s not obscure at all

    I did not say it was obscure, did I? I said it was dopey, but disagree, I’m sure Feiglin appreciates the support.

    LMAO – as opposed to everything else…..;-)

    What, I can’t pick and choose what stupid comment you make to respond to? Most of your stuff (at least in this post) has been just too asinine to respond to, like insinuating that the Israeli government formulates policy based on their interpretation of the end times, too stupid for words.

    Are you utterly unable to differentiate between all people within Palestine?

    No, that is easy, what I am utterly unable to figure out is what you mean by Hamas military. They have no uniforms, no rank, no organized training regimen, yet you fall all over yourself enlisting them in an imaginary army if they pick up a gun or play with rockets. There is Hamas, there are Palestinians, there are those that are both, and there exists Palestinians that fight Jews who do not consider themselves as Hamas or Hamas affiliated, you are so good at it, I’ll let you decide who goes in to what cuby hole.

    No matter, I’ll continue to file this issue alongside ‘climate change’ as one of those huge self-isolating willfully-ignorant-blind spots some on the American right have, and are proud of.

    Since I never participate in the AGW threads, how in the hell to do know what my position is on the matter?

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  134. Poosh says:

    The Facebook post seemed perfectly rational and indeed, at first glance, an intelligent and justified solution (skim read mind), however it is flawed and sadly unworkable. Much of the population are essentially nazis at this point – unless you have a way to de-nazify them, they will continue their hatred once returned.

    Iran et al will continue to fund those who wish to continue doing Allah’s work and killing the Jews (slightly ironic it’s arguable that the Koran justifies the existence of Israel…)

    The terrorists will quite happily endure these “concentration camps” and await a return. It would be a pointless endeavor.

    I already researched that “knesset genocide” bullshit, but I didn’t really read what CM wrote so maybe he didn’t missquote her or misrepresent her words. She’s not calling for the death of ACTUAL INNOCENT civilians. Yes, if a civilian teaches their children to hate, encouraged them to martyr, then they are indeed snakes and what not, and I see no difference (in principle) between them and, say, Bin Laden (who never actually killed anyone as far as I know, not personally..) they are more guilty than their children, because a child’s mind is easily warped. Whether or not they are legitimate targets in war, I don’t know. It’s certainly a good thing and the right thing for them to be killed, but I’m not sure it’s the correct role of a military in war, I suppose its more a “war crime”, I mean, what was the rightful way to deal with German civilians who aided the Nazi party by nazifying their children, or writing pro-nazi literature.

    Some of these terrorists (it;s not just Hamas out there in Gaza) are just kids and teens, young adults brainwashed from an early age. We would do exactly the same if we were in their shoes because we have NO choice. Your consciousness and morality is shaped by the language and society around you. If you go to UN-sponsored school where you’re taught the protocols of zion, watch kids tv where children are being praised for saying they love to kill Jews, and then you see a missile blow up half your family, of course you’re going to join Hamas etc. So are the parents, and teachers any worse than the terrorists?

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  135. CM says:

    I did not say it was obscure, did I? I said it was dopey, but disagree, I’m sure Feiglin appreciates the support.

    You’re dismissing it with a wave of your hand as just being ‘dopey’. It may seem dopey to you and me (yee-haa we agree) but clearly this guy is a serious player.

    What, I can’t pick and choose what stupid comment you make to respond to? Most of your stuff (at least in this post) has been just too asinine to respond to, like insinuating that the Israeli government formulates policy based on their interpretation of the end times, too stupid for words.

    What the stuff we’ve been talking about between ourselves more recently? For example that the stated section of law is just something said by “the guy, fat and safe, firmly ensconced in suburbia, sans any bomb shelters or air raid sirens”. Or that residential development is built as a buffer. Or the questions about the hospital rocket. Or UN resolution 242? Or the US President positioning himself so he could actually be considered an honest broker for a change (although I still don’t see how that is possible given how all the death in Gaza is from US financed and/or supplied weapons and far outstrips anything provided in Gaza).

    like insinuating that the Israeli government formulates policy based on their interpretation of the end times, too stupid for words.

    It’s far from stupid to speculate that some may take action believing that they are doing God’s work and/or carrying out God’s plan. Whether he exists or not. Whether they are in fact his agents (assuming he exists) or not. And there seemingly isn’t any good reason for the ongoing aggressive settlement building within the West Bank, which everyone else in the world says is a bad idea (even Poosh). Well, not you though.
    A lot of the action Israel takes makes little sense otherwise. Especially when, as noted in the other thread, the Torah is considered to be the constitution and the body of law, and the Torah (in its narrowest sense) constitutes the first five books of the Bible, and they make it pretty clear what will happen and even provides helpful instructions. But no, all too stupid for words. I must remember that when someone next tells us that the Muslimoids are just following instructions and everything Palestine suffers is because Hamas has that bit in their Charter written in 1998 (even though they owe their entire existence and ongoing levels of support largely because of what Israel have done since

    No, that is easy,

    Seemingly not, unless you want to clarify this a little further:

    …if only the Palestinians cared for its people the same way.

    Did you mean only those specifically involved in/with Hamas? Because even Hamas isn’t solely a terrorist group who just lob missiles into Israel, far from it. They didn’t have a military branch for the first 4 or so years of their existence. Instead they were largely focusing on social and cultural activities while the PLO did the terrorism.

    The population in the Gaza Strip is mainly composed by families of Palestinian refugees. Many of them were expelled in 1948 from Najd, Al-Jura and Al-Majdal, present-day Or Haner, Sderot and Ashkelon (a city of Canaanite origins, that included, until 1948, al-Majdal). These villages were razed to the ground by the Israel Defense Forces to prevent the return of their inhabitants. The latters were transferred by bus to the camps and the cities that form the present-day Gaza Strip.

    http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.608906

    Like it or not (again, their terrorist tactics are abhorrent and utterly unsupportable in my view), this is what Hamas grew out of. The Hamas-affiliated military wing is called the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades,

    Since I never participate in the AGW threads, how in the hell to do know what my position is on the matter?

    Well perhaps not you on climate change although I did notice you referencing it a few days ago in a manner suggestive of a stance (picking up on the ‘science is settled’ canard). But sure, I could yet be pleasantly surprised.

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  136. CM says:

    The Facebook post seemed perfectly rational and indeed, at first glance, an intelligent and justified solution (skim read mind), however it is flawed and sadly unworkable. Much of the population are essentially nazis at this point – unless you have a way to de-nazify them, they will continue their hatred once returned.

    He said, with an entirely straight face.
    There we go Rich, not dopey at all to Poosh either. Perhaps an example of how he got 23 percent of the vote in a contest for the Likud Party leadership, and was appointed as Deputy Speaker.

    Except wouldn’t the Nazis usually be the ones putting people in concentration camps?

    Iran et al will continue to fund those who wish to continue doing Allah’s work and killing the Jews (slightly ironic it’s arguable that the Koran justifies the existence of Israel…)

    Your irony is a paragraph late.
    Ah yes here we go – Israel has the Torah which is considered to be the constitution and the body of law, and the Torah (in its narrowest sense) constitutes the first five books of the Bible, and they make it pretty clear what will happen and even provides helpful instructions. But nah, don’t worry about that. Whereas the Palestinians (most of them Nazis at this point) are absolutely just doing Allah’s work.
    Brilliant. Life much be much much easier operating like that.

    The terrorists will quite happily endure these “concentration camps” and await a return. It would be a pointless endeavor.

    Right, but killing shitloads of civilians, many of them kids, and maiming and destroying the homes of many many more, isn’t a pointless endeavour, it’s JUST “self defence”.

    I already researched that “knesset genocide” bullshit, but I didn’t really read what CM wrote

    Course not. Woe betide.

    She’s not calling for the death of ACTUAL INNOCENT civilians.

    Only because she’s essentially saying that nobody is innocent – it depends entirely on how you define ‘innocent’. Does the person next door who tolerates their neighbour being in Hamas (perhaps not in the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades) meet her personal threshold?

    If you go to UN-sponsored school where you’re taught the protocols of zion, watch kids tv where children are being praised for saying they love to kill Jews, and then you see a missile blow up half your family, of course you’re going to join Hamas etc.

    Or perhaps seeing a missile blow up half your family would be sufficient. Would it not be for you? Israel has sure put on one hell of a three-week recruitment drive. They’ve also flushed a shit-load of cash down the toilet that they paid out to students in universities around the world to say positive things about Israel.

    So are the parents, and teachers any worse than the terrorists?

    Even if we accepted that (although possibly your wording is off there, you likely meant ‘any better’), who determines what level of complicity is deserving of death? Who cares it out? A conscripted 18 year old Israeli boy who has no interest in killing anyone, let alone someone who someone else deems to have met the threshold based on the sketchy data that have in front of them? What effect does that have on that poor 18 year old kid? Why should be live with that for the rest of his life?
    This is why we have internationally agreement rules/laws/norms. It didn’t all happen by accident, or as part of the bringing in a One World Government. People and leaders involved in the heat of the battle cannot be trusted with making up the rules as they go.

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  137. CM says:

    http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/06/qawasmeh-clan-hebron-hamas-leadership-mahmoud-abbas.html#

    I guess we need to see how this progresses…

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  138. richtaylor365 says:

    You’re dismissing it with a wave of your hand as just being ‘dopey’. It may seem dopey to you and me (yee-haa we agree) but clearly this guy is a serious player.

    It is a Facebook post, forchrssakes, do you get that? Arguing over the ridiculous, that is your MO, unbelievable. This is like Shelia Jackson Lee posting “Whites don’t like Obama because he is black”, designed only to pander to the base. This guy is like Alan Grayson, a bomb thrower. You can get all constipated if you want, but until he puts forth a bill, or the Knesset seriously debates such a proposal, it just a Facebook rant. I can’t believe I am wasting time debating you on such stupid bullshit, but this will be my last comment.

    It’s far from stupid to speculate that some may take action believing that they are doing God’s work and/or carrying out God’s plan.

    Unbelievably stupid. Tell me, what does “end times” exactly mean? Do you know when the end times will come? Does any person on earth know when we are in end times? You do know that the end times (how things will progress and unfold) is documented in the New Testament and the Jews do not subscribe to or believe in the NT? Go ahead, square that circle. If Israel was a theocracy (which it isn’t) run by lunatic Imam’s like Iran, and those leaders wanted to accelerate the end times coming, they could do that right now, yet they don’t. How many nukes does Israel have? Enough to drop one or two on every single major Muslim city on earth? Yeah, I would say that would bring on the end times real fast.

    Where the book of Revelation (NT) describes conflicts between the Jews and the rest of the world, the passages in the OT that speaks of the Messiah returning ( the Jews think he is still coming) speaks of a period of prosperity and peace, no world wars, hunger and death will cease, the temple will be re built, and the whole world will prosper under one king. Hardly the conflagration described in Revelation.

    Especially when, as noted in the other thread, the Torah is considered to be the constitution and the body of law

    Repeating this nonsense does not make it so. Israel is not a theocracy, their Constitution is the Basic Laws of Israel;

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Laws_of_Israel

    No where does it mention the Torah or that Israeli subjects are bound by it, nonsense. The Israeli government consists of all factions, Zionists, non Zionists, atheists, even Arabs. To even insinuate that Israel is run religiously is stupid, being Jewish is ethnic, not religious.

    I must remember that when someone next tells us that the Muslimoids are just following instructions and everything Palestine suffers is because Hamas has that bit in their Charter written in 1998

    Then take it out, simple, show the world that you really want peace, want to co exist as a two state nation, otherwise you get pegged for the zealot that you are, incapable of living with the rest of civilized folks.

    Well perhaps not you on climate change although I did notice you referencing it a few days ago in a manner suggestive of a stance (picking up on the ‘science is settled’ canard). But sure, I could yet be pleasantly surprised.

    So, you took a title of a post I wrote on dating and mangled that into exposing myself as a climate denier even though I never participate in AGW threads? There you have it, folks, an open mind, and classic progressive behavior, making a judgment without any facts to support that judgment, Q.E.D.

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  139. Poosh says:

    Is there actually any point talking to CM? I mean I realise I keep making the stupid mistake, forgetting that he is devoid of intelligence and simply incapable of understanding basic concepts / reading text. But it just goes on and on. He doesn’t understand things, people explain it, he still doesn’t understand (because he’s a low intelligence individual), he makes a few snide comments, posts a few dodgy links as evidence, he tells a few lies, he misrepresents what everyone says .. it goes on and on.

    Nothing good comes out of it, other than feeding the troll.

    I would really like intelligent discussion about this subject, maybe learn something, but each post is just bogged down in CM and other libtards stupidity.

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  140. Xetrov says:

    Nazi.

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  141. CM says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  142. CM says:

    I would really like intelligent discussion about this subject…..

    Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. SURE you would…..

    The Facebook post seemed perfectly rational and indeed, at first glance, an intelligent and justified solution (skim read mind), however it is flawed and sadly unworkable. Much of the population are essentially nazis at this point – unless you have a way to de-nazify them, they will continue their hatred once returned.

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  143. Section8 says:

    My view on this whole thing is for the US to stay out. For those bitching about how shitty Israel is, i.e. Europe and “the world”, put down your markers and cardboard, let up on your grandstanding for a bit about how you “care” and focus on getting your leaders to get their shit together and broker a true peace. One that is reasonable, and recognizes Israel’s right to exist because there is no other option, and one that works out for the Palestinians because there is no other option, and don’t let up until it’s signed sealed and delivered. Don’t find ways of side stepping and finding some way to blame the US as a cop out, just get it done.

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  144. Poosh says:

    @Section8 the problem is most arab Muslims do not want any Jews on Muslim land, in addition to the damaged pride that only the destruction of the Jews can heal.

    Israel, as do many of the so called “anti-Israel” crowd know, if Israel completely gives over Gaza etc, that’s basically game over Jews. They need their buffer zones. Look how useless it was giving Gaza over to the “Palestinians” – they merely turned it into a weapons platform, building tunnels to engage in standard Islamist terror strikes (as demanded by the Koran) – such as we have seen in Kenya, Mumbai etc. Israel was going to see the hell-on-earth that those Islamists keep engaging in (and indeed HAVE been trying to do to us, from the USA to London): torture, mutilation and bullets.

    It’s got to the point that Israel is thinking about building some mental “underground wall” to mirror the current wall, and keep the Islamist terrorists out.

    There is simply no way Israel will survive unless it maintains and possibly burns up those buffer zones. The Iron Dome is only a temporary measure – the so called “anti-Israel” crowd know this perfectly well, as well i suspect – it won’t be long until it’s bypassed by the Islamists.

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  145. HARLEY says:

    All this rage and venom from the left and Muslims in europe/america about the Gaza strip, but near utter silence about what isis is doing in Iraq, and it is far more tragic and violent …

    https://twitter.com/ajaltamimi/status/477923254876012544

    http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/07/horror-new-video-isis-terrorists-slaughter-hundreds-of-shiites-in-iraq/

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  146. Poosh says:

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/27/isis-s-black-flags-are-flying-in-europe.html

    To paraphrase Mark Steyn: you go to a “Save Gaza” rally to engage in a bit of light antisemitism, and you end up next to a guy waving an ISIS flag .. at that point you might want to work out your priorities.

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  147. Section8 says:

    “@Section8 the problem is most arab Muslims do not want any Jews on Muslim land, in addition to the damaged pride that only the destruction of the Jews can heal.”

    Poosh, I have no doubt on that one. Certainly at the state level from countries like Iran that’s been made clear. Of course they’ve just been misquoted or whatever excuse comes up. My point is basically it seems there are groups of people that like to get on their soap box, yet offer no real solutions, they don’t encourage any meaningful solutions, they just bitch about whichever westernized country is convenient to bitch about at the moment so they can appear bad ass. Absolutely useless.

    It’s a very complex situation, there are those who want no Israel in the territories and neighboring countries, but there are some just pissed that they’re stuck in what is basically a land locked area with no ability for upward mobility since there is no infrastructure to do so. Whether they agree with their leadership or not, they’re going to be pissed at the persons bombing them and locking their access. That’s just human nature. I know if some country bombed my neighborhood but said it’s because Obama is a prick, I’d find myself siding with Obama if he took retaliatory action. It’s not because I’d suddenly think he’s awesome, but because my neighborhood, my country just got bombed. Israel is going to have to make sacrifices too such as moving out of those settlement areas, and allow for a Palestinian state. The Palestinians and neighboring countries are going to have to accept a the Jewish state of Israel to exist.

    That said, where are these European and the rest of “the world’s” leaders? Talk is cheap, useless UN resolutions are cheap. It will be hard work, and it won’t be a pleasant endeavor. These folks know this so it’s just easier to hold a protest sign, come up with some rhyming chants, and other 8th grade level reactions and bitch about the US or the Jooos, and show one’s diplomatic prowess via that method. Not seeing much better in the way of brokering solutions from the leadership side either.

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  148. CM says:

    Harley that is an excellent point, there is FAR worse going on elsewhere, and that is a prime example. I got some crappy dumb response on Facebook when I pointed that out.

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  149. Poosh says:

    @Section8 indeed, though Israel has constantly accepted a two state solution – the blindingly obvious truth is the “Palestinians” could have their state and peace tomorrow if they wished (that being said, Hamas et al would simply slaughter them, as they have done to any Palestinian who behaves rationally (i.e stats this is not Israel’s fault, this is Israels).

    I also think a rational individual who has been granted some degree of free thought, would understand their house/family died because of Hamas, not because of Israel. I suspect many Germans and perhaps Japanese realised allied bombing of civilian areas was entirely their fault and a doom brought upon “themselves”. However the arabs living in the disputed territoriy are not rational etc. and have little free thought to connect the dots – and those that do are dealt with swiftly. But keep in mind we (“we”) killed, I forget the figure, but something like 10,000 – 50,000 (yes I know, I forget the figure!) French civilians via bombing mostly during WW2 as we liberated France. French mostly understand.

    As for “where is the world leaders” looks like Hamas etc have mostly won this won. It was about the world perception, and Hamas have managed to manipulate a lot of world leaders and countries (mosltly with the aid of a % of the Muslim populations who conveniently speak up when Israel does something but are silent about their brothers being slaughters in multiple other countries: there’s a reason for that).

    A lot of liberals are idiots desperate for a fake victim to wear on their sleeves, Palestine is a great issue to use to that end, if they lie about the Palestine (or allow themselves to be lied to) they’ll get a lot of kudos from people. Bread and butter liberal stuff, entirely self interested (again, that’s why they’re not horrified by Syria etc) – remember how many idiots marched on Stop The War rallies re. Iraq etc. with the most idiotic reasons, completely unhinged (there were good arguments against, but they never voiced them) and making the most disgusting assertions about the US military – well, they’re gonna be doing the same about Israel, we can take that to the bank. They will ALWAYS get it wrong and be on the side of evil, not because they’re evil themselves, but because they’re just idiots.

    But what is unique are the large numbers of mostly eh “asian” as the UK media puts it, people quite happily being blatant about their antisemitism (Koran enabled) and we’re now seeing ISIS flags being flown around Europe (albeit small numbers I assume). So much for assimilation, we’ve dug our own graves.

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  150. mrblume says:

    That said, where are these European and the rest of “the world’s” leaders?

    No one can do anything as long as there is some other guy with all the weapons and an expressed intention to use them if necessary. It is the responsibility of the US, because you keep choosing it. Take your weapons out of Israel and let Congress declare that from this point on, the US is indeed going to stop caring; then other countries can assume the responsibility.

    As it stands, anything is meaningless if the US does not sign off on it, so what grounds would anyone have to negotiate in their place.

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  151. mrblume says:

    All this rage and venom from the left and Muslims in europe/america about the Gaza strip, but near utter silence about what isis is doing in Iraq, and it is far more tragic and violent

    While no doubt the United States has to take responsibility for the mess in Iraq, the fact is, as of this moment, my taxes are not currently financing the killing spree of ISIS.

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  152. mrblume says:

    What is it with conservatives always talking about other people, ideally in some some other place, rather than taking responsibility for their own actions?

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  153. mrblume says:

    I suspect many Germans and perhaps Japanese realised allied bombing of civilian areas was entirely their fault

    Yes. What they didn’t quite understand was the “blockade” after WW1. That is why they started WW2. I wish I could say that afterwards the United States had located their brains; instead they found McCarthy and simply became distracted by red fever.

    . But keep in mind we (“we”) killed, I forget the figure, but something like 10,000 – 50,000 (yes I know, I forget the figure!) French civilians via bombing mostly during WW2 as we liberated France.

    Nice! Israel is approaching 10.000 by now over multiple bombing campaigns, except they are only bombing Paris and not liberating anyone.

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  154. Section8 says:

    “As it stands, anything is meaningless if the US does not sign off on it, so what grounds would anyone have to negotiate in their place.”

    lol, typical

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  155. Iconoclast says:

    How is that not explaining (and attempting to legitimise) something via religious faith?

    The word “if” may be small, and therefore easy to ignore, but it’s still significant in meaning. If God doesn’t exist, then everything else fails to follow.

    What it predicts in the Bible could happen solely because those who believe in God determine that they should be acting as his agents, and so they carry it out.

    So? If it’s all false myth with no actual God to back it up, then there is no real reason to expect success, especially when the odds against are overwhelming, as is the case with the re-establishment of a Jewish state after several centuries of Diaspora. Your premise seems to be that making prophecy come true is a walk in the park. “… those who believe in God determine that they should be acting as his agents, and so they carry it out…” As if it were that simple.

    No, in the natural, the very idea of a new Israel would seem preposterous during WWII, when the Jews were being systematically exterminated from the face of Europe. After the war, when the idea was proposed, it met with substantial opposition. Britain was opposed, as was the US State Department. Of course, all the Arab states were opposed. Besides the Jews themselves (and not even all of them), virtually nobody was in favor of a sovereign Jewish state in the midst of Arab states.

    Once Israel declared its independence, the Arab world attacked it immediately. Even though President Truman recognized the state, the US still embargoed all belligerents in that war, including Israel. Arab opposition obviously continues to this day. The whole point is that Israel exists in spite of history and in spite of all of the opposition aligned against her since day one.

    …it may be nothing more than people believing it and deciding to make it happen.

    Again, you make it sound like a walk in the park. If it were a trivial matter, your argument would mean something, but the re-establishment of a sovereign Jewish state of Israel, when virtually the whole world was opposed to the idea, is far from trivial.

    As you point out (“Just like Hamas”), Hamas is trying to make its own prophetic texts come true, but they’re having decidedly less luck, aren’t they? You yourself state that they cannot destroy Israel, even though that is their goal. And they ostensibly have the whole Arab world behind them, along with much of the MSM.

    As above, if that happened because people made it happen because they believed it said it in the bible, then that doesn’t make God any more real.

    But if there was no real reason to expect success, then it does suggest God is real. Again, “people made it happen because they believed” doesn’t disqualify that suggestion, although you seem to think it should. You apparently proceed from the premise that “making prophecies come true” is a trivial matter. Re-establishing an ancient nation in modern times, after the people of that nation were scattered to the winds for centuries, is far from trivial, especially considering the levels of opposition, and especially considering that they were being systematically exterminated just a few years prior.

    Whether one believes in God (and which God or Gods) is to at least some degree a product of brain chemistry and the accident of geography (family, community, country). Nothing rational about those – they are random.

    That holds for disbelief as well, although I doubt you would admit as much. Growing up in the USSR would make one much more likely to be an atheist than a theist of any persuasion, but that would also be random, especially if the parents were atheists. There is nothing magically rational about being an atheist, nor is there anything magically irrational about being a theist.

    Well of course the ability to use logic, rationality and reason will differ from person to person. But using them, or attempting to use them, doesn’t require a leap of faith. Religious belief is inherently a leap of faith.

    No, you’re simply assuming a false dichotomy between reason and faith. Religious belief is not “inherently” a leap of faith. Sure, it can be, depending on the individual, but it can also be the rational result of weighing the available evidence.

    What is of the official policy on engaging targets in close proximity to large amounts of civilians? On taking out civilian infrastructure like the only power station?

    Well, you seem to be proceeding from the premise that Hamas absolutely must launch rockets from densely populated civilian areas. If Hamas stopped firing rockets, the IDF would stop killing Palestinians, but your arguments, by all appearances, utterly fail to take that into account.

    Hamas receives millions of dollars in financial aid every year, from the UN and other entities. Aside from buying rockets and launchers, and lining their pockets, what do Hamas spend this money on? Why don’t they use it to build more power stations? Or air raid sirens? Bomb shelters? Water treatment plants? An Iron Dome of their own? Don’t tell me they cannot afford any of this. Millions of dollars can at least buy a warning system of some kind. Of course, maybe the firing of rockets from civilian areas is the “warning system”…

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  156. Poosh says:

    The existence of Israel is somewhat unlikely – then again, life is full of Rorke’s drifts so meh.

    Though note some Muslims may be fully aware the existence of Israel may negate their own religion.

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  157. CM says:

    If God doesn’t exist, then everything else fails to follow.

    Right, but if you believe God exists, it doesn’t matter if He doesn’t. Because you’ll do what you think is right according to God anyway. If you die and that’s it (no afterlife, just ceasing to exist on any level) then ultimately you won’t know that God never existed anyway. But your actions while you were alive could very well matter.

    Again, you make it sound like a walk in the park. If it were a trivial matter, your argument would mean something

    I never said anything was a walk in the park. I didn’t comment at all on how hard anything was.

    As you point out (“Just like Hamas”), Hamas is trying to make its own prophetic texts come true, but they’re having decidedly less luck, aren’t they?

    Of course, but then they’re up against a state fully supported and armed by the world’s only superpower, which is inarguably part of their problem. That’s the exact opposite of a walk in the park.

    But if there was no real reason to expect success, then it does suggest God is real.

    If that’s your pre-existing position and you’re looking to support it, I can see how that would follow. Otherwise, the existence of a specific God isn’t going to be on the shortlist. Lots of things happen unexpectedly, all the time. If people are religious, they sometimes seem to attribute it to God. If it’s a negative, it’s a test from God or similar. Either way, God has decided it for a reason.

    Again, “people made it happen because they believed” doesn’t disqualify that suggestion, although you seem to think it should.

    Not at all. It just seems far more likely. But then I don’t believe in God (although, as I say, I’m prepared to keep an open-mind). If you do believe in God, you need look no further.

    You apparently proceed from the premise that “making prophecies come true” is a trivial matter.

    I can put it on record that I don’t.

    Re-establishing an ancient nation in modern times, after the people of that nation were scattered to the winds for centuries, is far from trivial, especially considering the levels of opposition, and especially considering that they were being systematically exterminated just a few years prior.

    I agree, it’s far from ‘trivial’. But that doesn’t automatically bring me any closer to believing in a Christian God. Nor should it.

    That holds for disbelief as well, although I doubt you would admit as much.

    Well then you’d be wrong. It follows. It would be a bit difficult to believe in the Christian God if you lived in a remote village where nobody else has even heard of such a thing.

    Religious belief is not “inherently” a leap of faith. Sure, it can be, depending on the individual, but it can also be the rational result of weighing the available evidence.

    What do you mean ‘can’ be? If the evidence is made obvious to you (by God appearing in front of you or similar)?
    I’d certainly be interested in reading more about how religious belief being “the rational result of weighing the available evidence”. Usually I’m told that the ‘faith’ aspect is a critical part of the whole thing (i.e. if it was too easy then it wouldn’t be worth anything).

    If Hamas stopped firing rockets, the IDF would stop killing Palestinians, but your arguments, by all appearances, utterly fail to take that into account.

    Israel and their IDF aren’t forced into these specific actions. These are specific decisions being made. Yes they are decisions being made in response to Hamas rockets, but implying (by all appearances) that they have no choice is just nonsense. There are big choices, and many many smaller choices being made throughout this whole thing.
    Tell me this though – if Hamas stopped firing rockets, would Israel pull the settlements out of the West Bank, and lift the blockade and end the occupation of Gaza? Of course not. But leaving that of any “if they did that then they’d do that” is just a waste of time.

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  158. CM says:

    Since virtually every comment on Hamas in American media includes the assertion that the group’s Charter rejects Israel’s right to exist, it’s worth noting the following from the Likud Platform of 1999:
    a. “The Jordan river will be the permanent eastern border of the State of Israel.”
    b. “Jerusalem is the eternal, united capital of the State of Israel and only of Israel.
    The government will flatly reject Palestinian proposals to divide Jerusalem”
    c. “The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.”
    d. “The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.

    http://www.juancole.com/2014/08/charter-destruction-palestinian.html

    So the settlements are there as an expression of the fact that it is considered to be Jewish land.

    It is stated in that piece that “the Likud Party has *never* in its statements of principles, accepted a Palestinian State”.

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  159. Section8 says:

    “Tell me this though – if Hamas stopped firing rockets, would Israel pull the settlements out of the West Bank, and lift the blockade and end the occupation of Gaza? Of course not. But leaving that of any “if they did that then they’d do that” is just a waste of time.”

    Handing back Gaza, most of the West Bank, and some of the settlements, splitting Jerusalem so the new Palestinian state could have a capitol, and a creation of a Palestinian state has been offered several times, and a comprehensive plan as recently as 2008 per the link below. It’s been rejected every single time. So I’ll tell you this: Israel has been willing to negotiate despite your Likud Party talking points, it’s been willing to give up areas, it is not the one consistently walking away from the negotiating table on the major reforms. Why do you continue over and over to ignore this?

    Link

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  160. Poosh says:

    If the West Bank magically turned into a liberal city like Israel or France, dropped their racist arab nationalism, then Israel would more than likely pull out of such areas. Duh.

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  161. Iconoclast says:

    Right, but if you believe God exists, it doesn’t matter if He doesn’t. Because you’ll do what you think is right according to God anyway. If you die and that’s it (no afterlife, just ceasing to exist on any level) then ultimately you won’t know that God never existed anyway. But your actions while you were alive could very well matter.

    Yeah, and you’ll do what you think is right according to CM anyway. The problem is, if there is no God, then nothing I or you do really matters, because we’re just going to die and cease to exist, as will humanity as a whole. Eventually, all life on this ball will cease to exist, as will any life that may exist elsewhere in the universe, because, eventually, the universe itself will die. So no, my actions simply cannot matter to an utterly indifferent universe. We’re just ants scurrying around on a ball of water and mud, no matter how self-important we pretend to be.

    I never said anything was a walk in the park. I didn’t comment at all on how hard anything was.

    It would be nice if you could comprehend what I actually write. I didn’t claim that you said it was a walk in the park. What I said was, you make it sound like it’s a walk in the park.

    That’s the exact opposite of a walk in the park.

    So was the re-establishment of Israel, which it the point you are avoiding.

    Lots of things happen unexpectedly, all the time.

    “Unexpectedly” is irrelevant. Israel’s re-establishment was predicted thousands of years ago. If this is a “self-fulfilling” prophecy, why wait until 1948 AD to make it happen? what is so special about that particular time?

    Yes, improbable events occur regularly, but that’s just a dodge. Israel’s re-emergence on the world stage, playing a pivotal role in world events, was predicted centuries ago by Bronze-Age sand-dwellers, and it has come to pass. That is beyond mere improbability.

    If people are religious, they sometimes seem to attribute it to God. If it’s a negative, it’s a test from God or similar. Either way, God has decided it for a reason.

    But we aren’t talking about random life events like getting sick or getting rich. We’re talking about an ancient people losing their homeland, being sold into slavery, scattered to the four corners of the earth to live as exiles without a homeland, for thousands of years, while still maintaining their identity in spite of ongoing persecution, facing genocide, and re-establishing their ancient homeland as their sacred texts foretold. I understand the desire to trivialize this, but it simply isn’t trivial by any stretch.

    Not at all. It just seems far more likely.

    It seems “far more likely” that an ancient people who were scattered to the winds managed to maintain their identity in the face of ceaseless persecution could simply re-established their homeland in Israel, in the face of world opposition, just because? How, exactly, do you go about calculating probabilities?

    But that doesn’t automatically bring me any closer to believing in a Christian God. Nor should it.

    Well, the fact that you apparently felt compelled to tack on your “nor should it” dismissal belies your claims of open-mindedness. I never said anything should be “automatic”, but I would think it might cause one who truly is open-minded to pause and reflect just a wee bit, rather than flatly reject it out of hand as you seem to be doing. But then, I suppose there are those who would reject the possibility of God’s existence no matter what happens.

    What do you mean ‘can’ be?

    It should be self-evident; religious belief can be a leap of faith for a given individual, but that doesn’t mean it has to be for every individual.

    I’d certainly be interested in reading more about how religious belief being “the rational result of weighing the available evidence”.

    Perhaps the most striking example would be Antony Flew, who was a leading authority of atheistic thought and philosophy for many years. After studying the evidence presented by the Intelligent Design people, Flew converted to Deism. There are other examples, such as Christopher Hitchens’ brother Peter Hitchens.

    Usually I’m told that the ‘faith’ aspect is a critical part of the whole thing (i.e. if it was too easy then it wouldn’t be worth anything).

    But what does that mean? Faith that God merely exists? Or faith that God will actually do what He says He will do? There is a difference. People seem to think that seeking evidence of God’s existence somehow undermines faith, but there is no reason to adopt such a view when one understands that faith is action based on God keeping His word, not on God’s mere existence.

    And by “action”, I don’t mean killing Palestinians or bombing hospitals, so kindly refrain from going there.

    Israel and their IDF aren’t forced into these specific actions.

    And Hamas isn’t forced to fire rockets at Israeli civilians. That’s the point.

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