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Israel and Hamas Again

I’ve been holding back on commentary on the latest Israel-Hamas conflict to see what was going to happen. What’s happening is a war. The latest news is that Hama militants crossed the border into Israeli territory and have fired over 150 rockets into civilian areas. Israel is responding with air strikes. And the sordid mess goes on and on.

There’s a lot of blaming both sides going on. And while I can certainly see the argument against Israel’s response, I don’t think there is anything close to a moral comparison here. This started because three Israeli teenagers were kidnapped and murdered, most likely by Hamas. Hamas has denied involvement but supports the idea of kidnappings in general. Shortly after the bodies of the Israeli teens were found, a Palestinian teen was brutally murdered in retaliation. But the Israeli authorities condemned it as an act of terrorism and have already arrested the people responsible.

That’s how you know who the good guys in this situation are. One side acknowledge the other’s right to exist, condemns brutal violence against innocents and tries to deliver justice for its minority Islamic population. The other is a terrorist organization that does not recognize its opponent’s right to exist and has no interest in delivering justice to the people who murdered three innocent young men.

We can debate Israel’s tactics, sure. But let’s not lose sight of which side we should be on.

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  1. mrblume says:

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  2. Hal_10000 says:

    The problem is that Israel has learned the hard way that these things escalate no matter what you do. If the Israelis timidly cower in bomb shelter every night, Hamas will just start firing more rockets or (in this case) incur on Israeli territory.

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  3. Seattle Outcast says:

    Sometimes I feel we should just flood the region with weapons for all sides and sit back and wait for a winner – and then nuke the winner on general principles.

    How many centuries have they been killing each other over minor differences in religion and who looks slightly different?

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  4. Xetrov says:

    If a cop shoots a drug dealer because he was verbally insulted, I’m not wondering who’s side I’m supposed to be on.

    150 rockets launched at civilians = a drug dealer verbally insulting a cop? Really??

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  5. Iconoclast says:

    150 rockets launched at civilians = a drug dealer verbally insulting a cop? Really??

    Apparently so. If it weren’t for moral relativism, the left would have little to say.

    Israel’s “tactics” are one of persistent overreaction, evidenced by the fact that there are thousands of dead Palestinians for every Israeli killed.

    Assuming the truth of this claim for the sake of argument, that may be due to Palestinian leadership using its civilians as human shields. But I doubt the truth of the statement in the first place. I suspect it’s just anti-Semitic propaganda.

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  6. TxAg94 says:

    Before I do something that is guaranteed to kill an innocent person, I’d rather run to a rocket shelter every single night; and I expect nothing less of people who want to be my moral equivalent.

    Said the guy who doesn’t have to run to a rocket shelter every single night, or have his children run to a shelter every single night.

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  7. Iconoclast says:

    Is that the side of peace, truth and justice?

    Loaded question — as long as Israel exists, there simply will not be peace in the region. Of course, even if Israel were to be eradicated (still a goal of Hamas), that still wouldn’t guarantee peace in the region.

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  8. AlexInCT says:

    Loaded question — as long as Israel exists, there simply will not be peace in the region.

    Even after they destroyed Israel there would be no peace in that shithole part of the world. Israel is just a convenient excuse for evil barbarians to do their thing and get support from their fellow travelers (anti-Semitism runs deep with the left who loves to project it elsewhere). If there was no Israel there would have been another reason for these fucks to kill innocent people, including those amongst them that don’t suck the dick of the master assassins hard enough.

    There is no moral conundrum for me here. You can pretend there is, but I am then more inclined to question you and your intentions than take any fault with people left with no option but to exterminate the evil that keeps coming after them and their children (and then not doing exactly that). Does anyone doubt that if it was us or the Europeans being attacked like this that they wouldn’t strike out? Only Israel needs to keep saying thank you and asking for another. Well, except when you have a scumbag leftist in charge that would rather use the crisis to increase their power than protect the people he swore to do so for. Kind of like the asshole in the WH right now.

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  9. mrblume says:

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  10. Xetrov says:

    Think of it has me using a metaphor. Like Jesus would have.

    I would prefer to think of it as an asinine comparison that in no way reflects reality, which is what it was.

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  11. Section8 says:

    “Regardless, I don’t care what the “bad guys” do.”

    Says it all right there.

    “You would, no question. We wouldn’t.”

    In this case then, encourage those that need to lash out to target “you” whoever that “you” is. At least the “peace” would be kept since there would be no response and since you don’t care what the other side does, it works out for everyone. Then and only then could you tout your morals rather than hypothetical bullshit of running to shelters.

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  12. Poosh says:

    Fact: If the Israelis were actually arab Muslims and did EXACTLY everything the Israelis had done, none of this would happen.

    The only causal factor of this conflict is the fact that one side is Jewish and the other side is commanded to think and do a whole litany of horrific things to the Jews. The fact that Jews beat arab Muslims over and over, and sin by running their own government on Muslim soil (all land that Muslims occupy at some point is Muslim soil, such as parts of Spain – do not confuse this with our understanding of land ownership) is the reason for the conflict.

    Don’t kid your self and think it’s anything else. Don’t pretend the Palestinians are victims (though a good deal of them are, a good deal of them aren’t).

    You think just because 4 million were systemically exterminated, the whole world is gonna stop hatin’ Jews? lol. No one entered WW2 to stop the Jews from being wiped off the planet… First thing we Brits did during the Blitz was blame the Jews and smash their shops up as GERMAN bombers headed back to refuel. Same old hate. First thing the (peasant) Crusders did when heading off to the Holy Land to stop MUSLIM imperialism was to slaughter some Jews (until the Pope told them to wtf, stop it).

    Not a single f*cking thing has happened to change that hate.

    You could pour all of the world’s gold into the Palestinian territories and instead of building hospitals, they’d still build weapons of Jew-destruction. Because Allah Wills It. And Honour demands it.

    The Jews are the lowest of the low after all.. how would you feel if they beat you war after war against impossible odds?

    As for those on the Left who aren’t anti-Semites (and a lot of them are, and there are indeed many on the British right, sadly, the older generations of Tories) – well, the Left love their fake victims. It’s a no-brainer.

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  13. Poosh says:

    “You would, no question. We wouldn’t.”

    Not for lack of want ….

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  14. Iconoclast says:

    Think of it has me using a metaphor. Like Jesus would have.

    Claiming to have equal footing with Jesus, are we? Is there no limit to your sanctimony? I sincerely doubt that Jesus would ever “use a metaphor” to utterly trivialize attempted mass murder, yet such is your implication, based on the fact that you are doing exactly that. Jesus’ Dad, God Himself, promised the land currently called Israel to those Jews being targeted by the Palestinians, and whose attempted mass-murder you are trying to trivialize. I really have a hard time believing God or Jesus would be down with that, your claims of doing what Jesus would do notwithstanding.

    These people that Israel is targeting aren’t hiding among civilians. They are just living. They have families, because that’s what people do.

    Is firing 150 rockets at civilian populations “what people do”? Your massive equivocations are truly a thing to behold. Furthermore, you contradict yourself. If those people who are firing rockets at civilian populations have families, then they’re using their families as human shields, with or without their family’s consent.

    Regardless, I don’t care what the “bad guys” do.

    That’s disturbingly obvious.

    It is hard to justify the assassination of a person to begin with; if you need to kill his whole family in the process, it just became impossible.

    Tell that to those who are firing the rockets into civilian populations. Like I said, your equivocation, along with your massive self-righteous sanctimony, are truly breathtaking.

    Well, look at your own numbers of Israelis vs Palestinians killed in the last week and tell me what they say.

    I have, and what they unequivocally don’t say is that there are thousands of Palestinian dead for every one dead Israeli, which was your claim.

    You would, no question. We wouldn’t.

    If by “we”, you mean Europeans, I say bullocks. Europeans started two global conflagrations last century, and has quite the history of bloodshed in general. Not only is your sanctimony breathtaking, it’s completely unfounded.

    No one entered WW2 to stop the Jews from being wiped off the planet… First thing we Brits did during the Blitz was blame the Jews and smash their shops up as GERMAN bombers headed back to refuel. Same old hate. First thing the (peasant) Crusders did when heading off to the Holy Land to stop MUSLIM imperialism was to slaughter some Jews (until the Pope told them to wtf, stop it).

    I am convinced that there is no other people in human history who have suffered such relentless and consistent persecution as the Jews. They were forcibly removed from their homeland thousands of years ago, wandered in Diaspora for those thousands of years, and suffered persecution everywhere they went, culminating in the Final Solution. In spite of all that, they managed to prosper and do quite well for themselves when circumstances allowed it. An example is that they became proficient at banking, mainly because they were forbidden from owning land.

    After the Holocaust, they were determined that their systematic demise would not happen and therefore retook their original homeland. This is unprecedented in human history, although I have been assured that this sort of thing happens all the time. Nevertheless, I have never been given an example that parallels the Jewish saga, and I doubt that I ever will.

    You could pour all of the world’s gold into the Palestinian territories and instead of building hospitals, they’d still build weapons of Jew-destruction. Because Allah Wills It. And Honour demands it.

    The Jews are the lowest of the low after all.. how would you feel if they beat you war after war against impossible odds?

    Again, I am convinced that Israel prevails precisely because their God is real and Islam’s Allah isn’t. And that is the reason why the Jews have survived these thousands of years in spite of relentless persecution, only to reclaim their homeland in these latter days. Allah didn’t even exist until the early seventh century.

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  15. Poosh says:

    @Iconoclast What’s interesting about antisemitism is it isn’t really like racism.

    Normal racism usually draws out several negative myths and is consistent.

    Antisemitism really is whatever X person wants it to be. Often the anti-Semite engages in double think. Jews are stupid yet run the world, Jews are untrustworthy yet somehow manage to trick everyone around them. Jews are the elites yet also of the gutter. It never makes sense, it morphs and morphs, t’s all things.

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  16. mrblume says:

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  17. Iconoclast says:

    I actually think that’s true (though irrelevant).

    Pointing out double standards is never “irrelevant”, although your recognizing that the double standard exists is encouraging.

    Of course, if Anwar al-Awlaki had been called John Smith and didn’t have a beard, he would never have been assassinated…

    Of course, your implying that the reasons Anwar al-Awlaki was “assassinated” were his beard and his name is quite discouraging, given how utterly silly that implication is. Why do you utterly ignore his al Qaeda connection, and the fact that he was a suspected traitor? What is it about your psyche that makes you trivialize such things? Is your world view really that twisted? Maybe it is. You do seem to think your just like Jesus, after all.

    …and if the Palestinians where Christians, you’d be out on the street crying murder.

    If the Palestinians where Christians, it’s highly unlikely that they would elect “leadership” whose stated goal is the utter destruction of Israel. Again, that twisted world view of yours come into sharp focus.

    Israel Hamas still has hundreds of human lifes (sic) on its conscience in the last week alone…

    Fixed it for you. You’re welcome. Of course, the statement is still flawed in that it assumes Hamas has a conscience, which is far from established.

    That is why they are morally superior.

    You are in no position to judge peoples’ morality at any level, given your apparently twisted world view.

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  18. mrblume says:

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  19. AlexInCT says:

    Not so unlikely. Germany was exclusively Christian in *that* time (and people were actually devoutly believing that shit back then, too).

    Oh, Bulllshit. The Third Reich was all about going back to the old pagan ways, and while the bulk of the German people might not been been very knowledgable about the Nazi leadership’s plans, you had to be blind to not see it. In fact, I bet most people in Germany saw it quite well, and Christian or not, they went along because they were more interested in having dignety, a job that allowed them to put food on the table, and an end to the abuse that followed the armistice after WWI.

    You are correct, however inderectly, that anit-semitism has run and continues to runs rampant in that part of the world and many other places where their brand was exported, even amongst European and other Christians.It’s the same shit that has these types supporting the Palestinian terrorists and pretending they do it because Israel is a meany and the poor child murdering monsters just have no other choice.

    Keep making exuses for the real motivation behind your support for murderers.

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  20. Technomad says:

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  21. Iconoclast says:

    Not so unlikely. Germany was exclusively Christian in *that* time…

    Ah, yes, this utterly predictable talking point raises its head again. The German people were predominately Christian, yes, but to claim that they were “exclusively” Christian is simply nonsense. The Nazis certainly weren’t Christian by any stretch. They adopted essentially pagan beliefs. The swastika itself is a pagan symbol of the sun.

    The Nazis had plans to systematically root out Christianity through a systematic campaign of persecution of Christian churches. When made aware of this documented history, claims that the Germans were exclusively Christian come across as simply absurd.

    I dabble in multiple languages, and fact: the only people I’ve ever heard say the word traitor with a straight face are Americans.

    Assuming the truth of these claims for the sake of argument, they’re hardly relevant, given that they’re thoroughly anecdotal and subjective. And frankly, given the high BS content of your posts thus far, let’s just say your credibility is lacking as to the accuracy of these claims.

    Yes I trivialize it.

    Obviously. Your problem, not mine.

    The concept itself has persecution complex and jingoism built right into it.

    More BS. Being a domestic enemy of the state is a serious matter, your unwillingness to see that notwithstanding. Again, the man was allegedly working with/for al Qaeda. Attempting to trivialize that is borderline insane.

    Still, I was amused by the “suspected” qualification.

    That’s just the way it works, chief. Until one is actually convicted of a crime, they are only a suspect. That you find the concept of due process to be “amusing” speaks volumes, none of it flattering.

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  22. Poosh says:

    “if the Palestinians where Christians, you’d be out on the street crying murder. It’s unforunate, but there you go.”

    Eh, would I have cried murder during the firestorms of WW2? 1000s of Christian Germans burnt alive, many of them bred on the same Nazi upbringing the Palestinians are brought up on. Yet I wouldn’t be crying murder. …

    Islam demands the extermination of the Jews, Christianity does not, so that simply would not happen unless you throw in some Nazi indoctrination or classic Jewish hate. But let’s say the Palestinians were all Christians and did every thing the current Arab Muslims were doing. Everyone would still be supporting Israel. it is entirely hilarious that you would think we would some how be crying murder if it was “Christians” doings this.

    We’ve had no trouble slaughtering and bombing Christians before: in defence of Muslims no less.

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  23. Iconoclast says:

    If countries have a “right to exist,” why aren’t we frantically trying to revive Yugoslavia-that-was? Or Czechoslovakia, or the old Soviet Union? Or the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies? Or the Most Serene Republic of Venice?

    Unfortunately, you have fallen into a trap of equivocation. None of the states you mentioned ever had their “right to exist’ questioned, but Israel has, repeatedly. The claim is that Israel “stole” their land from the Palestinians, and therefore, they don’t have the right to establish their state on “stolen” land. Now, admittedly, we can debate whether states have a “right to exist”, but we should acknowledge that a people should have the right to live in peace, which is something that has been consistently denied the Jews throughout human history.

    No, Israel’s “right to exist” claim didn’t occur in a vacuum; it is a response to incessant claims that it doesn’t have the right to exist. And, for the record, there has never existed a state called “Palestine” in all of human history, whereas Israel did exist in antiquity, and the Jews have simply reclaimed their homeland which was forcibly taken from them.

    Just like the ancient Hebrew Scriptures predicted would happen.

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  24. mrblume says:

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  26. Iconoclast says:

    Well, a dead suspect.

    Yes, sometimes suspects get killed before they have a chance to go to trial, but the real point you seem so desperate to dodge is that this particular suspect was killed for working with al Qaeda, not because he had a beard.

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  27. Iconoclast says:

    Of course not.

    You just contradicted yourself. First, you claimed:

    …if the Palestinians where Christians, you’d be out on the street crying murder.

    mrblume, July 19, 2014 6:26 PM

    You then made the comparison to Nazi Germany:

    Germany was exclusively Christian in *that* time

    mrblume, July 21, 2014 5:38 PM

    And now you admit that “we” would not necessarily “cry murder” over dead Christians:

    Of course not.

    mrblume, July 22, 2014 7:24 PM

    Well done, champ.

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  28. InsipiD says:

    The big lesson that nobody ever points out is that the death of Palestinians would stop immediately if they would stop attacking Israel. Regardless of how many die due to this imbalance that is always brought up, or whether someone with an agenda labels them all to be civilians, etc., when Israel is not being attacked, they don’t attack. I don’t understand how they could have such a PR problem when they’re always reactionary.

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  29. CM says:

    InsipiD, the argument is that the controls and occupation is an ongoing attack.

    IMO the shithead fucktard leaders/decision-makers on both sides are fucking over their own people.

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  30. AlexInCT says:

    The big lesson that nobody ever points out is that the death of Palestinians would stop immediately if they would stop attacking Israel.

    If the murderous Palestinians chose to lay down their arms, there would be a chance for peace in the ME. I say maybe, because these people always have one excuse or another to butcher someone else, and often, even their own. If the Jews laid down their arms, they would be slaughtered, after the Palestinians scumbags raped the women and children, and tortured whomever they could. Anyone that pretends otherwise is full of fucking shit.

    That tells you all you need to know about which side is what.

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  31. AlexInCT says:

    IMO the shithead fucktard leaders/decision-makers on both sides are fucking over their own people.

    I call bullshit on your claim. I remind you that no more than a decade or two ago, one side, bowing to enormous and insane pressure from other nations that would never, ever have agreed to something like that, had their country’s future been on the line, was forced to concede to live side by side with people that vowed genocide. The deal was turned down, because the leader of the blood drinkers was afraid if he agreed to it, he might lose the power being the antagonist gave him.

    History has a way to rain on the parade that people that like to equivocate about the two sides involved. After Arafat’s fuck you I would have just steamrolled the fucking assbags into the ocean and been done with that. But here they are, yet again, being forced by assholes of the left that want to see Israel destroyed, to play nice with bloodthirsty murderers. Fuck that.

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  32. InsipiD says:

    Not both sides, one side. The other side is too busy being an economic powerhouse to pick fights. This despite being about the only country in the area having no oil under its soil.

    For anyone who is intellectually honest about the situation, there is no moral equivalency between Israel and whatever cartoonish thugs are in charge of the Palestinian authority at the time. There is no comparison whatsoever.

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  33. CM says:

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  34. richtaylor365 says:

    The big danger with the whole “there is no moral equivalency” argument is that it can be used to justify anything because you are choosing to support one side regardless of what happens.

    Not much of a danger at all to rational thinking folks, and that is not what’s been demonstrated here, the ACTIONS of one side has been weighed against those of the other and a determination has been made as to who is acting morally/properly, and who is not. It’s not that hard. One side fires rockets indiscriminately at the other with hopes of maximum civilian casualties, the other side’s approach is a bit different;

    http://www.inquisitr.com/1342806/gaza-israel-warns-targets-by-sms-and-phone-to-leave-before-bombing/

    Israel’s approach to bombing enemy targets is unique in the history of warfare. Making use of modern technology, it sends text messages, or calls the target several minutes before striking, to warn the occupants to move to safety.

    Then it sends a flare or similar device as a final warning before actually dropping the bomb. The success of this strategy can be measured by the numbers. In striking 500 targets in Gaza, only around 20 civilians have died, with about another 20 Islamic militants. In terms of what is euphemistically called “collateral damage,” those figures are extraordinarily low.

    Should not some moral judgments be made when you consider how each side conducts their conflict with the other?

    IMO it’s far more complicated

    Not really;

    http://conservativehideout.com/2014/07/22/what-is-happening-in-israel-in-a-little-over-five-minutes/

    any attempt to simplify it does that one side being “good” and the other side being “bad” is disingenuous and unhelpful.

    Again, that is not what’s happening here. If Israel decided that enough is enough and just leveled Gaza (which they have the force and firepower to do, sans nuclear weapons) and everyone in it, they would not have the label of “good” anymore, would they? Being “good” only holds if your actions are good.

    I don’t understand your confusion.

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  35. CM says:

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  36. CM says:

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  37. InsipiD says:

    Yeah, I’m sure that Israeli settlements are just as bad as firing rockets at innocent civilians.

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  39. Iconoclast says:

    The big danger with the whole “there is no moral equivalency” argument is that it can be used to justify anything because you are choosing to support one side regardless of what happens.

    There is “danger” in just about everything, including the refusal to see that “there is no moral equivalency” when there is no moral equivalency. Your quoted statement above could very well have been uttered by pacifists during the days leading up to WWII.

    Those of us who “choose to support one side” do so based on our best understanding of what has been happening, but you are trying to twist that into “supporting one side regardless of what happens”. That’s more than a little insulting, yes?

    I don’t want to see Israel destroyed…

    Well, Palestinian leadership — Hamas — does want to see it destroyed. It’s their repeatedly stated goal. That alone should indicate a lack of moral equivalency at some level.

    I don’t think their strategy (which includes expanding settlements on disputed territory and enforcing a prison state) is sustainable.

    Perhaps not, and that is fertile ground for debate. However, I do not believe that Hamas’ goal of destroying Israel is predicated on the existence of Israel’s settlements on disputed territory, although it may be used as an excuse for the current round of rocket attacks.

    Nonsense, I’ve never seen the actions of Israel weighed against anything. I’ve hardly seen any criticism of Israel at all, ever.

    If that’s truly the case, then you must be living under a rock. It seems that Israel gets nothing but condemnation and criticism. There are those in this venue who criticize Israel — check out Technomad’s post of July 21, 2014 7:16 PM, for example. The UN criticizes and condemns Israel on a regular basis, like every time Israel defends herself from Hamas rocket attacks.

    But then all I get back is nonsense in response.

    Maybe because all you post is nonsense in the first place? Garbage in, garbage out.

    How does that help boys kicking a ball around on a beach from being killed, or a geriatric hospital being bombed?

    See? You complain about “a statement entirely free from underlying context”, yet you turn around and pose questions that are “entirely free from underlying context”. Are you saying that the Israelis bomb kids playing on the beach, geriatric hospitals and family homes out of the blue, just for the hell of it? Why do you ignore the underlying context of Hamas firing rockets into Israel, or their using people as human shields? Why do you not ask why those areas were targeted in the first place, or why Hamas insist on placing their rocket launching hardware in such locations? No, you simply see what Hamas wants you to see and proceed from there.

    IDF campaign shows rockets in schools and hospitals

    Yeah, we could dismiss it as more bullshit propaganda, I suppose, but again, Hamas has repeatedly stated that it’s goal was Israel’s destruction. And again, that should be enough to tip the balance, one would think.

    Enjoy the bubble.

    Right. As if. What makes you think you’re not in a bubble?

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  40. Xetrov says:

    InsipiD, the argument is that the controls and occupation is an ongoing attack.

    I don’t understand how so many people have such a brainfart when it comes to the history of Israel. Israel didn’t seek to take more land as an aggressor. They were attacked. Repeatedly. The other side got their asses handed to them. When the attacks on their civilians didn’t stop, Israel too steps to protect their civilians, including keeping some of the land they took during the war. Do you know who the most prosperous Palestinians are by far? Those living under “occupation”.

    Palestinian U.N. Ambassador Riyad Mansour has claimed that the international community must protect Palestinians because of the Geneva Convention. All the while Palestinian leaders are breaking that same convention by hiding military assets among those same civilians they claim need protection. It’s like some people live in the twilight zone or something.

    IMO it’s far more complicated and any attempt to simplify it does that one side being “good” and the other side being “bad” is disingenuous and unhelpful.

    One side targets civilians and tries to kill them on purpose. Is that good, or bad?

    One side goes to great pains of putting their own soldiers in danger by trying to minimize civilian casualties on the other side. Is that good, or bad?

    One side tries to hide among a civilian population, intentionally putting their own people in danger. Is that good, or bad?

    Evil sometimes has to be called for what it is, CM.

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  41. Iconoclast says:

    Why There Can Never Be ‘Peace in the Middle East’

    Hamas’ covenant calls for the destruction of Israel. The preamble reads: “Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.” Article Three describes the duty of all Muslims: “(To) fear Allah and raise the banner of Jihad in the face of the oppressors.”

    Article Seven states: “The Day of Judgment will not come about until Muslims fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: ‘O Muslim, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him.’”

    Article Eleven clarifies their belief that “the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waif (Holy Possession) consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgment Day. No one can renounce it or any part, or abandon it or any part of it.”

    Article Thirteen flatly states: “Palestine is an Islamic land. … Since this is the case, the liberation of Palestine is an individual duty for every Muslim wherever he may be.” It also says, “There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad.”

    Any doubt about how committed Hamas is to Israel’s destruction?

    Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barack offered the following: to withdrawal completely from Gaza, to surrender almost all of the West Bank and to give the Palestinians most of Arab East Jerusalem, which would be their new capital. Israel agreed to dismantle Jewish settlements to achieve those objectives, and would allow a certain number of Palestinians to “return” to Israel, with additional compensation for Palestinians not allowed to return.

    In exchange Yasser Arafat, the head of the Palestine Liberation Organization, was required to do one thing — renounce violence against Israel and accept its right to exist as a Jewish state. Arafat walked away and thus began the so-called Second Intifada, a burst of violence that left over 1,000 Israelis dead by 2005.

    Yeah, more bullshit propaganda, I suppose.

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  42. Poosh says:

    *i’ve always thought it was quite stupid to expand settlements. As far as I’m concerned that land is the spoils of war, tough – BUT it makes no sense to throw meat to the wolves in ALL respects. It makes you look imperialistic and it just increases the land that needs to be protected, it only creates problems in the current decade. That is not to say it should be handed over to anyone, just that Israeli civilians should not be allowed to live there.

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  43. Poosh says:

    The problem is we have ample evidence that the Palestinians are nothing like “us” in regard to consciousness. The’re brought up to hate the Jews from birth and are high on the Islamic extremist scale (and why wouldn’t the be?) It’s not their fault, it’s the culture that is forced upon them and shapes them, we would be no different and do no different if born there. We have no control over our surroundings if those surroundings shape us into Nazis – the vocab and education will make sure we cannot escape it, bar a few lucky individuals or those who experience western life. Yet the left and certain useful idiots want to see these people are “just regular innocent people” and “just like us” when they are not. Therefor they cannot believe that these chaps will happily STAY in a building that the Israelis have demanded to leave, just so they can die and by martyred and be used as propaganda to be fed to the West. They cannot accept that their beef with Israel is purely becase they’re Jewish and think it disgusting that Jews are on arab lands (all Land there belongs to Allah). Because they’ve reframed these aggressors as victims, they imagine them as being just like them.

    On the other hand there is ample evidence that the Israelis are just like us – or are us, in fact. They are a western nation just like the rest of us. You KNOW the Israelis will not target children for the sake of it, because WE WOULDN”T.

    But the left etc imagine the Israelis are not like us, despite contrary evidence – and they imagine them as some sort of monsters. Gleefully killing children or not caring. Imperialist and not at all like us.. DESPITE THEM BEING ONE OF THE MOST ADVANCED WESTERN COUNTRIES for all intents and purposes. Their culture more or less identical in as much as western countries share culture. They even have their own liberals and useful idiots, and fifth columnists, just like we do.

    It’s a complete inversion. But, just as a “white man” cannot be a racist because he has power, the Israselis cannot be victims, because they have power… liberalism 101

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  44. richtaylor365 says:

    Nonsense, I’ve never seen the actions of Israel weighed against anything.

    You trying to set a record for the absolute dumbest things to say? This has gotta be way up there. Everyday I read criticisms, from just about everyone. That goofy link you posted offers one from a US Senator, just the other day we heard Kerry criticize them over a botched “pin point operation”. US cities (along with many in Europe) have hosted many pro Palestinian rallies condemning Israel. Sometimes you are just beyond thick.

    I disagree

    And I’m supposed to congratulate you for your inability to see the obvious? This failure is on you.

    There we go, a statement entirely free from underlying context. Just like InsipiD’s comment that I responded to. But then all I get back is nonsense in response.

    Another massive failure on your part. We see indiscriminate rocket attacks launched by one side, destination unknown (sometimes landing on their own side and killing their own people, bunch of dumbasses) and on the other side we see researched targets hit with precision weapons, along with warnings ahead of time to limit civilian casualties;

    The success of this strategy can be measured by the numbers. In striking 500 targets in Gaza, only around 20 civilians have died, with about another 20 Islamic militants. In terms of what is euphemistically called “collateral damage,” those figures are extraordinarily low.

    And you clamor for context, pathetic.

    Outside the tiny right-wing US bubble anyway. I.e. how they frame it at ‘Conservative Hideout’

    So because the video was reposted, along with dozens of other websites, on a site with “conservative” in the name, you are allowed to scream “propaganda” and discount everything in it? Hopeless.

    Of course 57 seconds might be complete bullshit.

    when one considers the evidence given of the great lengths the IDF takes in warning civilians ahead of time of impending attacks, Yeah, I would say that is total bullshit, but let’s post it anyway, it fits your narrative.

    But thanks for yet another reminder of why discussing this topic here is a colossal waste of time

    Could not have said it better myself, a colossal waste of time.

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  45. Iconoclast says:

    This whole thing is so full of propaganda that it’s hard to accept anything from either side.

    Or perhaps the problem is with you personally. Perhaps you personally cannot accept that a people can be driven by ideology to the point of sacrificing their own lives and the lives of their children for a cause, namely, the annihilation of a country and its people. Perhaps you use “propaganda” as your excuse for being unable to wrap your head around it. It’s funny how you rail against “ideology” on a regular basis, shouting “extreme” at the top of your lungs, while being apparently unable or unwilling to see or accept the ideology in this situation.

    Like it or lump it, the Hamas Covenant says what it says. Palestinian leadership does exhort the people to remain in harm’s way during Israeli reprisals, and the 57 seconds may represent genuine human error in not providing sufficient warning, which may have gone unheeded anyway. There is only so much the Israelis can do to protect a people that seems hell-bent on self-destruction.

    But yeah, it’s all propaganda, there are no good guys or bad guys, there is no real difference between the Israelis and the Palestinians/Hamas, it’s just “too complicated” to figure out.

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  46. mrblume says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  47. mrblume says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  48. richtaylor365 says:

    This is like every subject ever, in the history of the universe. Somehow, everyone thinks their side is not getting a fair shot.

    I’ll assume that English is not your first language. CM made this implausible statement ,” I’ve hardly seen any criticism of Israel at all, ever.” When I cite examples of criticisms all over the world including those in our own government you somehow equate that with me complaining that my side is not getting a fair shot, uh?

    And who exactly is my side? I am not a Jew, do not live in Israel, don’t have friends or acquaintances in that area, am not financially or even emotionally invested in the fight. Granted, the Bible prophesized this conflict (and already pegged the winner but I won’t ruin it for you), like most Americans I am an outsider watching as the events unfold. But as an outsider I get to see what each side is doing and determine for myself who has the moral high ground, who’s actions are born out of a necessity for survival and who’s are born out of savage and ignorant blood lust.

    At least the rockets being shot at Israel are real.

    Now we’re getting some where. A short while ago you equated the rocket attacks with a verbal insult, as dumb as that was, at least now you admit the rocket attacks are real. Baby steps.

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  49. CM says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  50. InsipiD says:

    [quote] At least the rockets being shot at Israel are real. [/quote]

    American Airlines flight 11 wasn’t real?

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  51. CM says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  52. CM says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  53. richtaylor365 says:

    Ah, this explains CM to a tee;

    Image and video hosting by TinyPic

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  54. Iconoclast says:

    I mean, lol.

    Oh, is that what you mean? I couldn’t tell, through all the self-righteous sanctimony and whatnot.

    Look, there is misinformed, and then there are things you can only believe if you really are a racist.

    So which one are you, misinformed or racist? Seriously, dropping the racism card is utterly weak, as is this lame attempt to laugh away actual evidence, something you have yet to submit in all of your self-righteous, troll-like bloviation. And the Hamas Covenant says what it says, like it or lump it.

    Of course, if this were true, if it were true that the reason Israel has to kill babies now is because they refused to swallow their pride and just had to insist on a semantic point (like we could trust those arabs anyway), then that’s pretty bad.

    What is this “kill babies” nonsense? The ones killing babies are the ones using babies to protect their precious rocket launchers. And yes, it is bad. Thanks for admitting it.

    Fortunately for Israels moral standing, their disagreements were a bit more involved.

    Like I keep saying, you’re hardly in any position to be judging anyone’s moral standing. And I see that you simply pontificate without any attempt to back up your bloviation with actual evidence.

    Again.

    “Lol” indeed!

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  55. Poosh says:

    CMTARD.com says: “And there it is – a key rationale behind ongoing unconditional support and the wholesale acceptable of all Israeli arguments and propaganda. It’s ‘good’ versus ‘bad’, and the ‘bad’ are sub-humans. Animals really (who know no better).”

    Which really is ” trying to set a record for the absolute dumbest things to say”.

    Imagine the logical corollary of CM in the 1940s “the key rationale behind ongoing unconditional support and the wholesale acceptable of all Allied arguments and propaganda. It’s ‘good’ versus ‘bad’, and the ‘bad’ Nazis are sub-humans. Animals really (who know no better).

    I’d love CM to tell the IDF to their faces their liars and baby killers. That being said he probably thinks our respective armed forces are liars and baby killers as well sigh. Far better men then he’ll ever be. I can go to the Palestinians and say “you really hate Jews don’t you” and they’ll be rather “no shit Sherlock” won’t they…

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  56. Iconoclast says:

    Look, there is misinformed, and then there are things you can only believe if you really are a racist.

    Let’s turn it around…

    Look, there is misinformed, and then there are things you can only believe if you really are anti-semitic.

    Much better.

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  57. Iconoclast says:

    It’s certainly something convenient to hide behind.

    Your quoted statement? Agreed.

    I’ve not twisting anything…

    Didn’t say you did, only that you tried to (but failed).

    I don’t though, and yet I don’t unconditionally support Israel.

    Who’s talking about “unconditional” support? Do you “unconditionally support” Hamas by defending their actions as you seem to be doing?

    But there is apparently no need for debate.

    Not when you make statements like that, I guess not.

    The settlements keep getting built, and aquifers under Palestine are drained, children die because of the horrific conditions (which Israel controls), and then something terrible happens after 14 months without rocket fire, and then all of a sudden it’s acceptable for Israel to do what it likes because ‘good versus bad’. FFS.

    And why is your propaganda any more legit than mine?

    It was merely one example of how it’s completely disingenuous to make out that Israel is merely minding it’s business and all of a sudden is attacked. That’s just ridiculous.

    The Hamas Covenant still says what it says, your indignation notwithstanding.

    Well, outside the bubble, where the rest of us live.

    As if.

    I’m talking about that section of the US right who live in the little ‘Israel is always in the right, this is a simple case of goodies and badies’ bubble.

    Okay, show of hands — who of you right-wingers think “Israel is always in the right”? Hmm, about 1 1n a hundred, maybe. The problem is your generalization and mischaracterization, not those on the right who see Hamas using human shields to fight a war of perception in the media, with people like you falling for it every time. It’s not about “Israel is always in the right”, but about how Hamas sacrifice their people to wage a media-perception war. There are other methods of responding to “settlements keep getting built, and aquifers under Palestine are drained, children die because of the horrific conditions (which Israel controls)” beyond trying your best to kill civilian women and children, whether those of your enemy or your own.

    And the Hamas Covenant still says what it says, your indignation notwithstanding.

    Some explicitly support the destruction of Palestine, some go to great lengths to dehumanise the Palestinians.

    Yeah, and some support the utter destruction of both sides. So what? That’s no excuse to tar with the broad brush, mischaracterize the situation as “Israel is always in the right” and pretend that everyone who supports Israel does so “unconditionally”.

    This keeps happening though, and it will keep happening. Over and over again.

    Yes it will. It will probably happen even if aquifers under Palestine are never drained, and children never die because of the horrific conditions (which Israel controls). Those are just the latest excuses. Like I said, there are other ways to respond. But ultimately, it probably doesn’t matter, because Hamas’ current campaign and strategy appears to be working,

    Hamas’ Triumph

    Hamas, with perhaps unwitting help from President Barack Obama, is achieving its war aim: to legitimize Islamic supremacism and Jew-hatred, and take it global. Jews are no longer safe in Europe or even in some places in the U.S.

    Emphasis added:

    Hamas enjoys killing Israelis and Jews — “By God, we will not leave one Jew in Palestine,” one of its leaders, Abdel Aziz al-Rantisi, told Al Jazeera — but thanks to Israel’s self-defense, opportunities for that pleasure are limited. Hamas has successfully terrorized southern Israel — and more recently, central Israel — with its deliberate missile attacks on civilians, and they take satisfaction in that. But their chief aim and greatest victory is in forcing Israelis to kill Palestinians. It’s almost a matter of indifference to Hamas whether a dead child is an Israeli killed by a Hamas rocket deliberately aimed at a village or a Palestinian child killed because Israel returned fire and the launcher was located in a kindergarten. If it’s the latter, the child’s image becomes part of the psychological war on Israel.

    This script has been followed year after year. Elite world opinion seems incapable of seeing the truth — that every dead Palestinian civilian (and, of course, every Israeli) is a victim of Hamas. Maybe it’s just too pleasurable to indulge in guilt-free anti-Semitism. Notice that attacks in Europe have targeted synagogues, not Israeli embassies.

    But of course, this is just propaganda. Only stuff that supports Hamas/Palestinians is the “truth”.
    Back to your nonsense…

    Bombing a densely populated area full of civilians is a war crime because it’s impossible to do without killing loads of civilians.

    It’s a war crime (or it should be) to place rocket launchers in densely populated areas full of civilians and provoke your enemy by launching rockets from those launchers with the goal of killing civilians, whether your own or your enemy’s. The guilty party is Hamas, but you steadfastly refuse to see that.

    It is unrealistic for Hamas to think that it can somehow destroy Israel.

    Yes, it’s easier to scoff than it is to confront evil. Hamas isn’t alone in their goal. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has repeatedly called for Israel’s destruction, and Iran is relentlessly pursuing nuclear weapons capability. Who’s to say they wouldn’t work with Hamas to achieve their mutual goal? Besides you, of course?

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  58. Iconoclast says:

    It’s gospel. Their God is the real one after all.

    I know lots of people who are critical of what Israel are doing, and yet I’m pretty sure that not a single one of them believes that disputed land belongs to Allah.

    For the record, it was mrblume who initially brought religion into this:

    Think of it has me using a metaphor. Like Jesus would have.

    mrblume, July 12, 2014 1:04 PM

    He’s the one who opened the door, I’m just taking advantage of that fact. Besides, your mockery is non sequitur. Ultimately, possession is 99% of the law, Israel is in possession, and the Palestinians, from this particular perspective, can shove it.

    OTOH, if the Judeo-Christian God is real, which I believe He is, it still ultimately doesn’t matter how much you disbelieve. Events will unfold according to His plan, whether you like it or not, and even if His agents behave in a manner that fails to meet with your approval. If the Judeo-Christian God is real, which I believe He is, things are going to turn to major shit the world over, even in your little corner of the world, again no matter how much you may disapprove of His methods.

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  59. AlexInCT says:

    I’d love CM to tell the IDF to their faces their liars and baby killers.

    At best, they would tell him to take a long walk on a short pier. At worse, one of the female soldiers would give him a good ass kicking.

    Leftists have no problem accusing any civilized people they hate of being evil. That’s because they know there is very little risk in doing that. Calling Israelis and Christians, to name just two such groups frequently targeted for abuse by the hubristic left, all sorts of bad names, or equivocating like CM is doing right now, makes them look like they are being though. When is the last time you heard a leftist actually call the for-real bloodthirsty baby killers, like for example the palestinians, or any other rabid mooslims, names? Instead, they tippy toe all around their real and evil brutality, making excuses for them (“They killed people in Benghazi because of a bad video!” or “You drew a bad cartoon about Mohammad, so what did you expect?” are two of my favorites), while ignoring the cause celebre’s they love to bash others for (abortion, gay rights, women treated like real cattle). That’s because the left, despite their bravado, know and fear the real barbarians, even while making excuses for them.

    No, what I would like is for CM to tell the palestinians they are baby killers and that they should leave the Jews alone and live in peace, and to see what happens. They would gut him like a fish.

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  60. CM says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  61. Iconoclast says:

    http://i48.tinypic.com/hvzztc.jpg

    It is now that you have entered it, agreed.

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  62. Iconoclast says:

    Again you don’t just get to make shit up. That you keep doing it speaks volumes.

    That you cannot or will not differentiate between “making shit up” and illustrating how your whines come across speaks volumes.

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  63.   
  64. CM says:

    Won’t someone please just think of the ankles. #anklejustice2014
    http://www.mh17news.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/bto4g01ceaesung.jpg

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  65. Poosh says:

    Things are horrific and it’s pretty much got to the point that blatant anti-Semitism is on show in Europe now.

    Notice these protests almost never single out HAMAS to stop their murdering and onslaught. You can infer that the protesters have no problem, and, well, you can infer the logical reason behind that.

    Social media – and ignorance – have a lot to blame. Things are really grim.

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  66. CM says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  67. Poosh says:

    Oh sorry, I must have imagined all the Jews who have nothing to do with Israel being beaten, having the property smashed etc. From country to country. Or all the “Nazis should have finished the job” and “We’re all HAMAS” now banners.

    My mistake.

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  68. CM says:

    You’re imagining it applies to all who criticise Israel.
    Yes, your mistake.

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  69. Poosh says:

    You’re a complete contemptible joke.

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  70. CM says:

    Sorry, we’re already reached FULL RETARD in this thread.

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  71. InsipiD says:

    Yeah, at July 9, 2014 5:15 am.

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  72. CM says:

    “LEAVE OUR BUBBLE ALONE!”

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  73. CM says:

    This started because three Israeli teenagers were kidnapped and murdered, most likely by Hamas.

    Except it was a lone cell (Hamas affiliated but not operating under leadership). The resulting swoop on the West Bank against Hamas, which soon escalated into all-out war, was based on a a false premise. The Israeli government knew from the get-go that the murderers of three Israeli teens were not doing official Hamas’ bidding even in the West Bank, let alone Gaza. Hamas had recently been very quiet on the rockets front: Fewer rockets were fired from Gaza in 2013 than in any year since 2001, and nearly all those that were fired between the Nov 2012 ceasefire and the current crisis were launched by groups other than Hamas; the Israeli security establishment testified to the aggressive anti-rocket efforts made by the new police force Hamas established specifically for that purpose.

    http://www.crisisgroup.org/~/media/Files/Middle%20East%20North%20Africa/Israel%20Palestine/b039-gaza-and-israel-new-obstacles-new-solutions.pdf

    But if you assume that Netanyahu has no intention of ever coming to a peace agreement, a more radical Palestinian population helps justify that. Meanwhile, the core project of a permanent Greater Israel is advanced.

    http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2014/07/27/the-lie-behind-the-war/

    None of that is relevant in the bubble though, so it will all be casually dismissed. And likely hidden from view.

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  74. CM says:

    Hamas isn’t alone in their goal. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has repeatedly called for Israel’s destruction, and Iran is relentlessly pursuing nuclear weapons capability. Who’s to say they wouldn’t work with Hamas to achieve their mutual goal? Besides you, of course?

    There is a whole chapter on “isolating Iran-backed Hamas as an obstacle to peace”. Unfortunately, come the current Operation Protective Edge, which began on 6 July, there was a problem for Israeli propagandists because Hamas had quarrelled with Iran over the war in Syria and had no contact with Tehran. Friendly relations have been resumed only in the past few days – thanks to the Israeli invasion.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/israelgaza-conflict-the-secret-report-that-helps-israelis-to-hide-facts-9630765.html

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  75. Iconoclast says:

    Umm, I never claimed Hamas was “backed by Iran”. I only said they had a mutual goal in destroying Israel, and floated the possibility that Iran would work with Hamas to achieve that goal. What you quoted doesn’t refute that. On the contrary, it would seem to support it.

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  76. Poosh says:

    http://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2014/07/19/irans_fingerprints_all_over_hamasisrael_conflict.html

    “As former commander of British forces in Afghanistan and a seasoned analyst of terrorist groups, Col. Richard Kemp, told AFP: “Hamas were very badly damaged by the Israeli Defense Forces back in 2012, but since that time they have been re-equipped significantly by Iran and also by weapons from Syria. … As an Iranian-Canadian who has spent years raising awareness of human rights violations inside Iran, it grieves me that Tehran’s brutal agenda is now playing itself out in Israel and Gaza. Were it not for the Iranian regime’s extensive role in laying the foundation for the current war, the past few weeks may have been very different for Israelis and Palestinians”

    Anyway, here’ s just one example, in France, from a liberal source:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/07/22/france-jewish-shops-riot_n_5608612.html

    I assume most here have already read or seen what’s going on in Europe right now. But just in case.

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  77. CM says:

    Umm, I never claimed Hamas was “backed by Iran”. I only said they had a mutual goal in destroying Israel, and floated the possibility that Iran would work with Hamas to achieve that goal. What you quoted doesn’t refute that. On the contrary, it would seem to support it.

    Well I never claimed Hamas couldn’t destroy Israel if someone who could destroy Israel helped them. I was talking about Hamas. But there you go again with your hypocritical game-playing.
    But if Iran is always going to rebuild Hamas, and ultimately will work with Hamas to destroy Israel via nuclear weapons, that makes the current strategy (occupation, blockade, keeping Gaza on the brink of collapse) even more stupid and short-sighted.

    “As former commander of British forces in Afghanistan and a seasoned analyst of terrorist groups, Col. Richard Kemp, told AFP: “Hamas were very badly damaged by the Israeli Defense Forces back in 2012, but since that time they have been re-equipped significantly by Iran and also by weapons from Syria. … As an Iranian-Canadian who has spent years raising awareness of human rights violations inside Iran, it grieves me that Tehran’s brutal agenda is now playing itself out in Israel and Gaza. Were it not for the Iranian regime’s extensive role in laying the foundation for the current war, the past few weeks may have been very different for Israelis and Palestinians”

    And yet apparently nearly all rockets fired between the Nov 2012 ceasefire and the current crisis were launched by groups other than Hamas. So perhaps having the weapons doesn’t necessarily mean they’re being used.

    I assume most here have already read or seen what’s going on in Europe right now. But just in case.

    That is disgusting, but it’s not right to be lazy and tar all those who criticise Israel’s actions with the same brush.

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  78. CM says:

    Were it not for the Iranian regime’s extensive role in laying the foundation for the current war, the past few weeks may have been very different for Israelis and Palestinians

    Again, outside the bubble…..

    Things had been very quiet for the past two years. Hamas had been strictly observing a cease-fire agreement since it was brokered in 2012, and was even arresting Palestinian militants from rival factions who fired rockets at Israel as recently as last month.
    http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-arrests-terror-cell-responsible-for-rocket-fire-on-israel/

    Hamas ultimately did resume firing rockets into Israel, but only after the massive crackdown Israel initiated against Hamas in the West Bank (and by some accounts, even after an Israeli airstrike on Gaza).
    http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-fired-rockets-for-first-time-since-2012-israeli-officials-say/

    And it turns out the initial crackdown against Hamas was also without basis. Israeli officials now acknowledge, in direct contradiction to statements by Israel’s prime minister, that Hamas was actually not responsible for the kidnappings of the three Israeli teens after all. And this is not just a realization Israel made over the weekend: Israeli intelligence officers reportedly noted as early as June 30 that there was no evidence implicating Hamas as an organization.
    https://twitter.com/sheeraf/status/483672275187552257
    http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/07/hamas-didnt-kidnap-the-israeli-teens-after-all.html

    How is that even remotely consistent with “laying a foundation”?

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  79. Poosh says:

    “That is disgusting, but it’s not right to be lazy and tar all those who criticise Israel’s actions with the same brush.”

    Lucky that no one has done that then, isn’t it.

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  80. CM says:

    Lucky that no one has done that then, isn’t it.

    Except you’ve done it consistently. In just this thread alone:

    You think just because 4 million were systemically exterminated, the whole world is gonna stop hatin’ Jews? lol.

    The whole world doesn’t hate Jews.

    As for those on the Left who aren’t anti-Semites (and a lot of them are, and there are indeed many on the British right, sadly, the older generations of Tories) – well, the Left love their fake victims. It’s a no-brainer.

    Provide evidence which backs up this claim that a lot on the left are anti-Semites. That’s the sort of serious accusation that should come with evidence. Otherwise it’s just laziness.

    @Iconoclast What’s interesting about antisemitism is it isn’t really like racism.

    In response to Iconclast’s response to MrPlume, implying that MrPlume is an anti-Semite.

    They cannot accept that their beef with Israel is purely becase they’re Jewish

    You can infer that the protesters have no problem, and, well, you can infer the logical reason behind that.

    Very clearly you cannot conceive of criticism of Israel that doesn’t come from antisemitism. Part and parcel of living in the bubble.

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  81. CM says:

    “Obviously what happened has been very worrying for some hospital staff. If they start targeting hospitals, everyone’s in danger”, said Dr Nasser al-Tatar, the director.

    Dr Nasser’s own home was destroyed in an air strike and, he wanted to point out, this was a dangerous new development. “The Israelis have hit hospitals before in their other attacks in Gaza, but we have not had this kind of deliberate targeting of doctors before. My house was targeted, they knew who I was. The staff here have been working around the clock, but obviously, when they are away, this causes problems.”

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-100-palestinians-killed-and-power-station-shut-down-in-heaviest-day-of-bombardment-yet-9636136.html

    Obviously just another Jew-hating motherfucking anti-semite arsehole who doesn’t understand that bombing the main hospital, only power station, and 80% of deaths being civilians is all for PEACE (TM). What a dick.

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  82. Poosh says:

    So wrong again, as usual CM, just pulling shit out of the air, as usual. As can be seen, I’ve done nothing as you suggest, certainly not consistently. You’d have to be a low-intelligence stain (like you) to think that as your failed attempt at evidence reveals.

    But I see what you’re doing – you’re building a strawman. Sigh. Do you actually think anyone falls for your crap?

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  83. CM says:

    Wow, yeah you sure debunked that then, with your “as can be seen”. Case closed.
    It’s all there in black and white, and is consistent with your comments in all other retarded threads on this issue. Deny it all you like (because you obviously can’t explain it away).

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  84. Poosh says:

    It’s not my fault you can’t understand words CM and have a nack for inferring whatever-the-hell-you-want from sentences.

    I’ve never said everyone (I would assume including myself? i.e the world) is an anti-Semite, if you want to take a phrase literally that’s your defective mind and problem. Here’s a pro-tip for you though buddy, if someone says “The whole world has gone mad!” they don’t mean literally every single human being on the planet.

    Nor did I say everyone who opposes Israel is an anti-Semite. It’s somewhat odd that you’re trying to push that though, makes me wonder about your agenda. I mean if you follow your own silly “evidence” that you think needs to be debunked you switch from accusing me of saying all who oppose Israel are jew-haters, to demonstrating by my own words that I don’t think that … before trying to show I think everyone is a jew-hater (so confusing following your non-logic btw) again. “, implying that MrPlume is an anti-Semite” < say what? so I want to make a point to someone and blam you trace it m.. just gonna cut off here.

    I think you're trying to push me into accusing you of being an anti-Semite, for whatever perverse game you're playing, something that isn't going to happen. I've never called you an antisemite and it's not gonna happen here.

    BTW anti-Semites, bar a handful of neo-nazis, generally don't stand up and admit they are such. That's another pro-tip for you.

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  85. Iconoclast says:

    Well I never claimed Hamas couldn’t destroy Israel if someone who could destroy Israel helped them. I was talking about Hamas.

    You tried to scoff at the notion of Hamas destroying Israel and failed to consider the possibility of alliance with Iran. Interesting that you consider the raising of that possibility to be “hypocritical game-playing”, but there you go.

    The whole world doesn’t hate Jews.

    This is factually incorrect. The only way that statement could be true is if everybody in the world didn’t hate Jews. Since that’s simply not the case, the statement is refuted before it was even written. Dolt.

    Wow, yeah you sure debunked that then, with your “as can be seen”. Case closed.

    Why not? You seem to think that saying “clearly” has the same effect. How is “clearly” any different from “as can be seen”?

    F-ing hypocrite…

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  86. Iconoclast says:

    In response to Iconclast’s response to MrPlume, implying that MrPlume is an anti-Semite.

    The only time I implied mrblume was an anti-Semite was in response to his implication that I am a racist. I merely took his inflamatory rhetoric and threw it back in his face. Not surprising in the least that you utterly failed to pick up on that…

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  87. Poosh says:

    @Iconoclast If I follow CM correctly I think he was saying I was calling MrPlume an anti-Semite (implying). I didn’t read MrPlume’s comments so can’t comment…

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  88. Iconoclast says:

    @Iconoclast If I follow CM correctly I think he was saying I was calling MrPlume an anti-Semite (implying).

    If that is the case, then I revise as follows:

    In response to Iconclast’s response to MrPlume, implying that MrPlume is an anti-Semite.

    CM, you need to learn how to NOT jump to stupid fucking conclusions. My response was to BOTH mrblume AND Poosh. If you read it carefully, the part where I discuss Jewish persecution through history is in direct response to Poosh’s July 13, 2014 8:48 PM posting. I even quoted part of it to provide the context, but you still managed to miss that, even though you yourself quoted part of the same post in your response to Poosh (July 29, 2014 8:22 PM).

    Bottom line, Poosh did NOT imply that mrblume was an anti-Semite in his response to my post. I did, by throwing his inflammatory rhetoric back in his face (July 25, 2014 1:50 PM).

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  89. CM says:

    if you want to take a phrase literally

    Brilliant. Yes, how dare I take what you say as what you mean, particularly when it’s entirely consistent with what you’ve said earlier, and earlier again.

    I’ve never said everyone (I would assume including myself? i.e the world) is an anti-Semite

    Not even close to what I wrote.

    Nor did I say everyone who opposes Israel is an anti-Semite.

    As above, there is plenty of clear evidence that that is what you think and zero evidence against it.
    But if you’re now saying that it isn’t true, that’s great.

    It’s somewhat odd that you’re trying to push that though, makes me wonder about your agenda.

    I must be an anti-Semite I guess (after all “you can infer the logical reason behind that”).

    I mean if you follow your own silly “evidence”

    Yeah, how silly to quote you directly to support my point.

    just gonna cut off here.

    Same old then. Just run away. Or start responding to your audience instead.

    You tried to scoff at the notion of Hamas destroying Israel

    The scoffing was only in your brain (that’s what you always do – you’ve got this whole tribal mentality).
    Hamas don’t have the ability to destroy Israel. No scoffing required. Don’t blame me for shit you invent to make me the enemy.

    Interesting that you consider the raising of that possibility to be “hypocritical game-playing”, but there you go.

    “Backed by” or “working with”- where is the meaningful difference? It’s your usual bullshit game-playing – looking for every single possible way of opposing what I’ve posted.

    This is factually incorrect. The only way that statement could be true is if everybody in the world didn’t hate Jews. Since that’s simply not the case, the statement is refuted before it was even written. Dolt.

    And again.
    I’m sorry that your penis is so small and that you constantly feel the need to compensate. Have you thought of buying a sports car instead? I understand that works well.

    Why not? You seem to think that saying “clearly” has the same effect. How is “clearly” any different from “as can be seen”?

    F-ing hypocrite…

    All irrelevant anyway as Israel are simply bombing power plants, hospitals, ambulances and shelters “ACCIDENTALLY” on a daily basis because it’s fulfilling religious prophesy. Anything is acceptable. You’ve all but admitted that logic and reason and rationale and legitimacy and whether civilian deaths are accidents or not are all completely irrelevant.

    @Iconoclast If I follow CM correctly I think he was saying I was calling MrPlume an anti-Semite (implying). I didn’t read MrPlume’s comments so can’t comment…

    That’s right, although I’m happy to withdraw that one as you’ve clarified that you were responding to what Iconoclast wrote in the second half of his post.

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  90. Poosh says:

    “As above, there is plenty of clear evidence that that is what you think and zero evidence against it.”

    I think only an absolute cretin of an individual would actually think that was the case. Like you CM.

    Do you know what the word “consistent” means? Maybe you should look it up.

    I DO think you’re protesting a little too much, it makes me very suspicious.

    Not gonna bother responding to your contradictory ramblings, or even read through them all. It takes quite a dumbass to claim someone thinks everyone who “opposes Israel is an anti-Semite” whilst bringing up a direct quote that contradicts that claim as evidence. You’re just a dumb person CM.

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  91. Poosh says:

    ok just so we wingnuts are pushed out of this bubble or what not, here’s some bubble bursting ammo:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2693423/Jewish-vigilantes-rampage-Paris-attack-pro-Palestinian-demonstrators.html#ixzz37eGsa9cM%20

    OH WAIT, it’s the Daily Mail. Automatic lies in CM land. Discard…

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  92.   
  93. Iconoclast says:

    Hamas don’t have the ability to destroy Israel.

    The real point is that, as long as that’s their goal, whether it’s achievable or not, what it means is that there simply will not be peace in the region as long as Israel exists.

    “Backed by” or “working with”- where is the meaningful difference?

    Well, in my use of the phrases, “backed by” was past tense while “working with” was future tense. My meaning was that I didn’t claim that Iran backed Hamas (past tense), only that they might work together in the future toward a mutual goal. But let’s not let a little detail like that stop us from foaming at the mouth…

    And again.

    Just throwing your pedantry back in your face.

    I’m sorry that your penis is so small and that you constantly feel the need to compensate.

    You’re projecting again. I’m embarrassed for you, bro.

    All irrelevant anyway as Israel are simply bombing power plants, hospitals, ambulances and shelters “ACCIDENTALLY” on a daily basis because it’s fulfilling religious prophesy.

    I never said that — that’s just you twisting what I said in your typically perverse manner. I simply said the reclaiming of their homeland was religious prophecy, and that if the Judeo-Christian God exists, then events will unfold according to His plan. That doesn’t mean “bombing power plants, hospitals, ambulances and shelters” is part of His plan, only that whatever His plan is, it will come to pass.

    You’ve all but admitted that logic and reason and rationale and legitimacy and whether civilian deaths are accidents or not are all completely irrelevant.

    Where have I allegedly “all but admitted” this? What I have done is state that Hamas use people as human shields, and place their rocket launchers in densely populated areas. You’re tired of hearing that. Well, too bad. That doesn’t make it not true.

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  94. CM says:

    The real point is that, as long as that’s their goal, whether it’s achievable or not, what it means is that there simply will not be peace in the region as long as Israel exists.

    Both sides are seeking to carry out ‘God’s Will’. But there have been signs in the past, and from some Hamas leaders, that it might be possible for them to live with Israel. It would be silly to just give up on that (well unless you’re sure it”s God’s Will, then you’d be silly to fight against it, and you’d give blind and unqualified support to Israel and not give two shits about methods – which is why you’ve counted yourself out from being taken seriously on any of this).

    Well, in my use of the phrases, “backed by” was past tense while “working with” was future tense. My meaning was that I didn’t claim that Iran backed Hamas (past tense), only that they might work together in the future toward a mutual goal.

    Ah ok: “my use of the phrases” explains yours, but I’m just ‘scoffing’.
    Typical.

    But let’s not let a little detail like that stop us from foaming at the mouth…

    It was an eye-roll, and a “here we go again’ sigh.
    Also, I’m not the fundamentalist here. Inherently I don’t really do mouth-foaming.

    I never said that — that’s just you twisting what I said in your typically perverse manner. I simply said the reclaiming of their homeland was religious prophecy, and that if the Judeo-Christian God exists, then events will unfold according to His plan. That doesn’t mean “bombing power plants, hospitals, ambulances and shelters” is part of His plan, only that whatever His plan is, it will come to pass.

    It certainly seems to allow people to justify a whole lot of bad shit. This whole tribal mentality really is so damaging (and as retarded as this thread, and every discussion of this topic on this blog). Fuck people using religious prophecy to justify harm to others. Fuck them.

    Where have I allegedly “all but admitted” this?

    OTOH, if the Judeo-Christian God is real, which I believe He is, it still ultimately doesn’t matter how much you disbelieve. Events will unfold according to His plan, whether you like it or not, and even if His agents behave in a manner that fails to meet with your approval. If the Judeo-Christian God is real, which I believe He is, things are going to turn to major shit the world over, even in your little corner of the world, again no matter how much you may disapprove of His methods.

    You’ve removed yourself from any discussion involving logic, rationality, reason, or morality.

    What I have done is state that Hamas use people as human shields, and place their rocket launchers in densely populated areas.

    Saying something over and over doesn’t necessarily make it true, or at least doesn’t make it true all the time.

    While human rights organizations haven’t yet addressed “human shields” allegations in the ongoing round of Israel-Gaza violence, they did after the 2009 round when Israel killed at least 773 Palestinian civilians, compared to three Israeli civilian casualties (a ratio of 257:1), and used the same “human shields” argument to deflect responsibility for those deaths. When the dust settled, Amnesty International investigated the matter and concluded that there was “no evidence that [Palestinian] rockets were launched from residential houses or buildings while civilians were in these buildings.” More attention-worthy was the report’s note that,

    in the cases of [Israeli] precision missiles or tank shells which killed [Palestinian] civilians in their homes, no fighters were present in the houses that were struck and Amnesty International delegates found no indication that there had been any armed confrontations or other military activity in the immediate vicinity at the time of the attack.

    http://www.salon.com/2014/07/18/israels_military_has_no_moral_superiority_and_its_time_the_media_covered_gaza_fairly/

    Gaza is a densely populated area, and is getting even more densely populated as Israel has reduced it by something like 44% during the past 2 weeks. By default they are launching rockets in a densely populated area.

    You’re tired of hearing that. Well, too bad. That doesn’t make it not true.

    And using it as an excuse every time doesn’t make it true every time. But very clearly you don’t give two shits about that.
    If you really had an issue with that then you’d have criticised, or at least questioned, Israel for doing the same thing.

    By contrast, the same report found that “in several cases Israeli soldiers also used [Palestinian] civilians, including children, as ‘human shields’.” Going back in time just a little further to put this into context is important: when the Israeli Supreme Court ruled in 2005 that the Israeli military had to stop using Palestinian civilians as human shields, the Israeli “defense” establishment objected to the ruling. The appeal against the ruling failed, and the practice remains technically illegal, but Israel implicitly encourages it to continue by offering an “inadequate … slap on the wrist,” as Human Rights Watch put it, to Israeli soldiers caught using this reprehensible tactic.

    I maintain that the leaders of both sides are a bunch of fucking arseholes who care little for civilians (and fuck anyone who disapproves of His methods, right, their arguments are irrelevant, as it morality). The Israelis are just better at rhetoric, in order to maintain US funding and to try and appear as the “good guys just defending themselves”. And within the bubble (where you firmly live) it’s all just swallowed up, seemingly without question.

    Bombing the power plant (multiple times over multiple days) and therefore knocking out power, water supply and sewage works is a serious war crime on earth, no matter what He says elsewhere. But yeah I know, if it’s part of the method then it doesn’t matter.

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