The Case for Spanking Vox

Ezra Klein’s Vox endeavor is a mixed bag. Sometimes it has some really intelligent articles. But with 30-some posts a day, it occasionally posts some really dumb shit with very little critical thought. For example, they recently posted about a deeply flawed study claiming female-named hurricanes kill more people than male-named hurricanes because sexism (a notion I debunk here). And today, they post this article arguing that we should ban spanking.

The stupidity of the article is revealed in the first two sentences:

The law prohibits you from spanking your boss, your employee, your spouse, your best friend, or a stranger you walk past on the street.

But in the United States, it’s still perfectly legal to spank your own children.

What … I … you … but … for …

(Sounds of Hal banging his head on the keyboard)

Seriously, Vox?

The reason we can spank our kids is because they are our fucking kids. We’re expected to exercise discipline and teach kids how to live and behave properly. The rules are different when we deal with adults. It’s true, you can’t spank your boss. You also can’t force her to eat her vegetables. You can’t make strangers to go to bed on time. If you told your employees they were grounded, they would laugh at you. And frankly, I’ve known some people who probably would enjoy a good spanking. Hell, there are some people who will pay strangers to spank them.

The article gets worse. It cites some research showing that spanking doesn’t work and that it causes long term damage. I have no doubt that abuse causes long-term damage. But the research on spanking is actually somewhat mixed. The reason is that children who grow up to have problems as adults often had problems as children too and therefore earned more physical discipline. There is some hint in the literature that spanking does benefit younger children, at ages when they are less amenable to reason and other forms of punishment.

The scientific case is not nearly clear enough to ban spanking, least of all (I guess) arrest or fine parents who do it. In a country where parents can be arrested for leaving their kid in a car for five minutes on a cool day, do we really want CPS arresting every parent who swats a kid’s bottom?

The rest of the article uses “everyone else is doing it” logic to say we should join other nations in banning spanking. But everyone else is not doing it. France hasn’t. The UK hasn’t. Australia hasn’t. Italy hasn’t. Canada hasn’t. This isn’t like the metric system where we are practically the only country in the world not doing it. This is clearly something that many countries have different opinions on. If Tunisia has banned spanking, good for them. I’m not using that as a basis for our domestic policies.

More countries outlaw abortion than outlaw spanking. Is Vox going to advocate that we should too? More countries use some form of Sharia Law than ban spanking. Is Vox going to advocate that we should adopt it? Well … I shouldn’t give them ideas.

To me, this just boils down to parental freedom. Spanking is not nearly so abusive and and not nearly so damaging that it mandates government intervention. If you don’t want to spank your kids, don’t spank your kids. But don’t come into my house and tell me how to discipline my offspring. Joseph Stromberg, who wrote the Vox article, clearly has a much lower threshold for government barging into our houses than I do.

Comments are closed.

  1. richtaylor365

    {palm/forehead slap} It just hit me. Hal, are you a DNC plant, paid to write for right leaning blogs, to spread the progressive message, albeit backhandedly?

    Many of your posts start out ,”Ta-Nehisi Coates/ Paul Krugman/ Andrew Sullivan/ Ezra Klein just wrote such and such, although I agree with them on (fill in the blank), here is why I think he is wrong here” which requires the reader to read the original piece in order to context your post. Considering that very few here would bother to read anything from those guys, you have managed to get their perspective published here, very sneaky. And on the off chance that we would disagree with you, then by proxy we must be agreeing with the author, if we agree with the author here, who knows, we may start reading them more often.

    Yeah, I’m being tongue in cheek, but it won’t work. If a clown said that the sun rises in the east, water is wet, and Obama could not find the truth with both hands, he is still a clown. But you did get me to look at that Vox site, I’ll shower later.

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  2. Hal_10000 *

    Rich, approximately a quarter of my political feed is liberal. The other 3/4 is conservative or libertarian. I read the liberal blogs because I like to know what they’re saying and occasionally they make me think. The conservative/libertarian blogs are where I ground myself. I think you’ll find I link OTB, Cato, Reason and Hot Air as much as I link Vox or anything else.

    But that liberal quarter of my feed is the more likely to produce a post because that’s where about 90% of the dumb stuff comes from. I have a lot more fun mocking stupid posts than saying, “Hey, Ed Morrissey is right about this!” That’s how I got into this gig over at Moorewatch — fisking and debunking dumb things said by liberals.

    That “hurricanes are sexist” post is a perfect example. It was so obviously wrong and in such obvious ways that it was like a hanging curve. I couldn’t resist. This one was equally stupid. “You can’t spank strangers so why can you spank your kids” has to be one of the dumbest things I’ve ever read.

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  3. richtaylor365

    I know, I’m just funning with ya. Once and a while I put on my balaclava, lower the shades, dim the lights and trundle on over to huffpo to see what’s floating their boat.

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  4. Aussiesmurf

    I’m a parent. I have two children, aged four years and 15 months. I would never, under any circumstances, lay a hand on them. I’m not making a case for or against laws in this regard – simply giving my personal perspective. My reasons :

    1. I consider violence (and let’s face it – spanking is violence.) to be an absolute LAST resort to solve any problem.

    2. I have never been in a situation where there hasn’t been an alternative form of discipline – raised voice, hand gestures, ‘naughty corner’, early bed-time, with-holding privileges (dessert, books, television, games), etc.etc

    3. I consider it a mixed message to instruct in the strongest terms against violence in terms of my children’s conduct, and then to ‘reinforce’ this message with a slap / smack.

    4. Yes, they are ‘my’ kids, but that is a position for me of responsibility, not power. If I can’t outsmart a child by shaping their conduct and behaviour without using violence, then I would be a pretty poor excuse for a parent.

    In a wider context, I agree that the rules are different for children in your care. You can give ‘orders’ to your children, you make decisions on their food, housing etc. It is obviously a false analogy to say that since you can’t discipline other adults, you can’t discipline your children. Defining how the law should read is a complex question. I will say :

    1. I will never lay a hand on my children.
    2. If someone uses physical discipline on their children, it lessens my opinion of them as a parent. My opinion may be of no signficance to them at all, but there it is.

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  5. Hal_10000 *

    Aussie, I’m in the same boat. I have rarely spanked Sal 11000 Beta and even then it’s usually been a quick swat. But she’s a good kid. I have no idea what Hal 11000 Beta will be like.

    I’m not prepared to argue the case for or against spanking. I am prepared, however, to argue the case against a law against spanking.

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  6. Seattle Outcast

    I know(n) a good many children that never experienced any discipline at all, much less the spanking they so sorely needed, and my first thought every time was that it was the parent that needed to be taken out back and have a belt taken to their ass more than the kid.

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  7. AlexInCT

    I’m a parent. I have two children, aged four years and 15 months. I would never, under any circumstances, lay a hand on them.

    I was a terror as child. The only thing that kept me in school was the fact that my grades always put me in the top 1%, but I was always bored and acting up. My parents had their hands full with me. Had my dad not resorted to a good spanking the couple of times he did it I think I might have ended up in jail, or worse. I have friends that ended up all fucked up because their parents never took that responsibility as a parent to teach their kid there are consequences in real life seriously, and bought into that progressive clap trap about not spanking misbehaving kids.

    No good parent sets out to put the beat down on their kids, but anyone that says they will never lay a hand on their children isn’t automatically a hero either. In fact I would make the case they are just as bad as the people that take to whooping their kid for anything and everything. I see the lack of discipline and direction in these kids that come from parents that say they will never spank, and often wonder how much better off these kids would be if they understood there are consequences other than unenforced time outs or meaningless warnings.

    I had to spank my kid, now 19, only once. He learned that lesson and knew better after that. I didn’t have to do anything but hit him once, on the rear end. He was more scared than hurt too. Compared to me and my behavior as a child at that age, he was a saint. He is far betetr adjusted than most kids his age as well too. And I am glad as hell I never had to touch him again after that. But had he kept at it, I guarantee you that I would have done something about it, including anther spanking. My job as a parent is to teach my child that real life will not tolerate that shit and there are consequences. If it takes a spanking to do that, and I don’t do it because some idiot said it is not a good thing, then the fault is with me. I hope for you that your kids never end up needing one and you end up not doing your job as a parent.

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  8. AlexInCT

    Just wanted to say, Alex, that I loved that comment. Agree with every word.

    Hal, kids are a weak spot of mine. I have gotten into fights because people were doing abusive things to kids, and I wont stand for that when I am around. But I am also not one of these crazies that thinks any kind of corporal punishment is child abuse and automatically makes you a bad parent. that kind of thinking is insane to me. Especially when I see so many maladjusted kids that would have been absolutely fine if their parents had been more of a paretn and disciplinarian than a god damned ideologivally driven weakling. In the end the child is the one that remains ill prepared for life, and as a parent, that’s your failure (IMO).

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  9. Section8

    I got spanked occasionally as a child, and I think I turned out alright. The key word is occasionally. When I really fucked up, I got the belt. I deserved it pure and simple. It’s all about moderation just like anything else. Same arguments can be made like gee, you lock your kid up in a room for being bad? Such a confinement is criminal. You aren’t allowed to lock your boss up in a room and put such fear in them that they won’t open the door until you allow it. You yell at them and intimidate them? What a scary world they must live in, why not just sit them down with tea and a biscuit and resolve things rationally?

    Abuse is when you overdo anything. Spanking is not evil, it doesn’t cheapen you as a parent, it’s just another method. Yeah if you beat the shit out of your kids, or spank them on a daily basis because you’re pissed your favorite team lost, or something like that then it is different. Like anything, it boils down to why it’s used, when it’s used, and how much it’s used.

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  10. CM

    We banned smacking (spanking) but only because parents were using it as a loophole in court to avoid being found guilty of beating the living shit out their kids (we have seriuos domestic violence problems). Not that those who opposed it can seem to understand that (well many do but conveniently ignore it).

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  11. CM

    Hal, you’re actively signing yourself up to Alex’s ridiculous idea that someone who won’t smack their kid is “just as bad” as someone who beats the shit out their kid? Really? That’s just bizarre. I don’t expect any better of Alex, but I’m surprised to see you signing up to such nonsense.

    My kids have never done anything that was deserving of physical violence. Doesn’t mean they haven’t been naughty, or I haven’t been really angry. I would just never use violence in that way – I don’t see what they could do to be deserving of being smacked. They are kids, why would I hurt them? I want them to respect me, not fear me. And I don’t think teaching them that using physical violence to deal with a problem is a good idea at all. There are also punishments that are far far better at stopping them doing it again (they all have their own specific currency that hurts). Alex, you can’t use a failure to follow through on punishment threats as a reason to say alternatives don’t work – that is just more poor logic.

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  12. Section8

    When was that law passed? 2007? Still seems to be an issue.

    link

    I would think with the gun control laws, and the spanking/smacking laws everything would be just fine now. This is the issue of the just throw laws at it mentality. It assumes everyone is of the lowest common denominator, it gives the illusion of “do something” and still does not resolve the underlying issue. Absolutely target assholes who abuse whether they abuse kids, spouses or anyone else. Don’t widen the scope to make everyone a criminal. Separate those who are criminal from those who aren’t and deal with it that way. It should be pretty easy for the common person to separate out what is discipline and what is abuse of discipline.Common sense should also be applied to a wide range of issues. Of course that’s from a common sense perspective and unfortunately these days is sorely lacking in the States, as well as other places apparently.

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  13. AlexInCT

    We banned smacking (spanking) but only because parents were using it as a loophole in court to avoid being found guilty of beating the living shit out their kids

    You are kidding me right? Your judicial system could not make the distinction between a spanking to enforce discipline and child abuse? Any legal system that needs to resort to a “no-tolerance” stand is one that’s broken. Period. That’s how you get kids suspended for eating a pop-tart into the shape of a gun or a kid that accidentally brings a toy gun to school and then does the right thing by reporting himself ending up with a juvie criminal record. Other examples include girls suspended for bringing Pamprin to school to deal with their friend of the month and such other stupid shit. That speaks more ill of the people running that system than anything else. And it bodes nothing but ill for good people. Not to mention that it will breed a whole bunch of pussified and entitled stupid kids that never had the benefit of being shown they are not the center of the fucking universe.

    I abhor child abuse. In fact, I was once in trouble with the law for punching the daylights out of a dude that was beating his kid into a pulp because he was drunk and angry. I would do it again if I saw someone beating the shit out of a kid for no apparent reason. But I feel just as much disdain towards idiots that climb on their soap box to tell us how much better parents they are because they won’t spank, while their kids act out like fucking out of control monsters. That’s not cute: it is a fucking sign you have failed as a parent.

    Hal, you’re actively signing yourself up to Alex’s ridiculous idea that someone who won’t smack their kid is “just as bad” as someone who beats the shit out their kid? Really? That’s just bizarre. I don’t expect any better of Alex, but I’m surprised to see you signing up to such nonsense.

    You are fucking moron CM., but a typical liberal douchebag Yes, people that refuse to discipline kids – especially those that realize that there are no consequences to their bad behavior since there never will be any real punishment – are just as fucking bad as people that abuse kids. Both abdicated their responsibility as parents and are harming the children. That you are not bright enough to see how much harm a child that doesn’t understand there are consequences in real life to acting out has been done, doesn’t make those of us that do see the danger/damage in the wrong.

    I had such a friend that never got disciplined. He killed himself at the age of 19, driving drunk and all drugged up along with 2 other people. Another now is doing life because he figured someone that pissed him off could be stabbed to death (funny how he never got touched by his pussy parents and yet turned to violence when he thought it would suit his ends). I have no doubt that I would have ended up in jail or dead had my father not done what he had when I needed it. Does every kid that doesn’t get spanked turn bad? No. But not every kid that gets spanked turns into a monster or is abused either.

    The problem with the left is that they want to control everything, including getting rid of your freedom to choose and to then own the consequences of those choices. That’s not because they care, like they want to pretend, but because they think we are all fucking child abusers, rapists, and other such criminals that can’t be trusted to have common sense or morality of any kind (after all, the left thinks morality, other than what the left believes in, is wrong anyway). You progressives destroy human dignity.

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  14. richtaylor365

    CM, although your comment (about how you view child discipline) seems reasonable (I too have never spanked my kid, but only because it just worked out that way, not because I was preset against the practice) you suffer from the same hypocrisy that infects most progressives;

    They are kids, why would I hurt them?

    they all have their own specific currency that hurts

    I’m dying to know how you reconcile those two conflicting statements of yours. I guess it’s OK to “hurt” them one way but not another, more fuzzy/irreconcilable progressive logic. Until you can recognize certain absolutes, that spanking is not the same thing as physical/child abuse, and that there are other forms of child abuse much more sinister and long lasting than spanking (which if done sparingly and properly is not child abuse), you will continue to lack objectivity when talking about disciplining a child.

    The problem with the left is that they want to control everything

    There ya go, the very definition of the progressive movement. It starts off with a healthy dose of sanctimony (we know better than you for a variety of reasons not limited to we are smarter than you, and we care more than you), stir in a pot with some nanny stating ( this-fill in the blank- is too important, the planet is at stake, we must compel those to act and do what we tell them, by any means necessary), add a cup of intolerance ( Our way is the gold standard, all others are inferior and must be outlawed/regulated), and slather on top some Noblesse oblige (it is our responsibility, the enlightened ones, to shape society and steer it in the right direction, for its own good)

    As to whether it destroys human dignity, I have no doubt that it bitch slaps liberty and freedom.

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  15. mrblume

    [quote]The rules are different when we deal with adults.[/quote]

    Not all rules are different.

    The fact is, parents are largely horrendous at their job. They have literally no idea what they are doing. Its not like anyone ever thought it through, or measured up their ideas against scientific evidence. “My parents did, and I turned out fine” is pretty much how far it goes. Given what we now about our desire to see patterns where there aren’t any, people cannot even be trusted to draw the right conclusions from their experience.

    I maintain that most kids turn out alright despite their parents best efforts, not because of it. I’m not surprised that the science is mixed, because I would imagine it doesn’t make a big difference either way.

    Which means we might as well the the right thing and ban it. If that means more parents will learn this lesson – super.

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  16. Section8

    The fact is, parents are largely horrendous at their job.

    Based on what your view?

    They have literally no idea what they are doing

    Who sets those standards of what “idea” they should be doing, you?

    people cannot even be trusted to draw the right conclusions from their experience.

    Then on top of all that, you go with this.

    I maintain that most kids turn out alright despite their parents best efforts, not because of it.

    Well then your opinion is also completely irrelevant based on your previous statements, but of course being a left leaning individual what you really meant is everyone is incompetent except me! so therefore they need to follow my lead and we need more laws to make that happen. Sorry for the name calling, but you guys with this mentality are fucking nuts and a scary bunch, and we’ve seen the impact to societies when this mentality merges with the might of government. We’ve seen it over and over. No thanks!

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  17. ilovecress

    Why is everyone using the words ‘spanking’ and ‘discipline’ interchangeably? Alex, yes parents who don’t discipline their kids are awful. But that doesn’t mean parents who don’t hit their kids are awful. In fact in your case Alex, it sounds an awful lot like spanking didn’t work.

    As usual I agree with Loius CK on this – hitting your kid is taking the easy way out.

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  18. Hal_10000 *

    Hal, you’re actively signing yourself up to Alex’s ridiculous idea that someone who won’t smack their kid is “just as bad” as someone who beats the shit out their kid? Really? That’s just bizarre. I don’t expect any better of Alex, but I’m surprised to see you signing up to such nonsense.

    No. I agree that people who do not discipline their kids when they need to be disciplined — almost always by non-violent means — are not doing their jobs as parents.

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  19. AlexInCT

    In fact in your case Alex, it sounds an awful lot like spanking didn’t work.

    You might need to go back and reread what I said, because I pointed out it actually kept me from crossing some lines there was no way back from. The spankings happened after I ignored numerous groundings and just went and did what I wanted.

    BTW, if your first reaction to anything your kid does that annoys you is to beat the living shit out of the kid, you are abusing the kid. But sometimes, when a line has been crossed, a spanking is a must. Kids should know there are consequences, and nothing works better than a good slap on the ass. BTW, the next thing I expect libs to say is also child abuse is sending your kid to their room where there is no TV, sound system, or computer or as the timeout space, or when you send them to bed without dinner, to punish them for breaking the rules. Because any kind of inconvenience to the kid is abuse…

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  20. ilovecress

    Alex – my point was that it didn’t seem to stop you from being a ‘terror’ as you put it.

    I also disagree that ‘nothing works better than a good slap on the ass’. Punishment shows that there are consequences for getting caught. It only works as a deterrent to getting caught, not for the behavior. It also only works until the kid is too old/big to fight back.

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  21. CM

    Secion8, what gun-control laws? And yes, domestic abuse here is a massive problem, as I said (I did not intend to imply that it had been fixed). The intent of the law was also something you appear to have missed.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimes_(Substituted_Section_59)_Amendment_Act_2007

    Hal that’s not what Alex said. Go and re-read what you’re signing up to here. He subsequently tried to change it, but that was later (and hidden amongst his usual abusive nonsense). Cress has obviously picked up on it as well. Sounds like Alex’s parents didn’t find out what his ‘currency’ was (by that I’m referring to what the important things were to him).

    Rich my second ‘hurt’ relates to things like banning screen time for the day, or taking 15 minutes off bed-time. If you want to be comparing that to physical violence, but not sure the logic works too well, and not sure that you get to lecture me about objectivity and get all sanctimonious about how I’m apparently being sanctimonious.

    IMO parents usually only hit kids (i.e. physical punishment) because they’re angry and they lack self-control (and they don’t see the need to learn any) or simply because their parents hit them (and “I turned out ok”). Suggesting “a spanking is a must” is just nonsense. It implies there are no other options, but that’s only the case if you can’t think of any. It’s also a poor way of communicating about what the kd did wrong…..I think it’s much better to reinforce the importance of decision-making and choices, and it’s far easier to do that without physical hurt. And whether smacking/spanking is banned or not, the government still needs to make a judgement as to whether child abuse is occuring.

    Alex’s comment about what he expects libs to say seems to be what Rich was suggesting above (other punishments also inflict pain etc).

    I think is somewhat of a generational thing, more so than a political-affiliation thing.

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  22. AlexInCT

    Alex – my point was that it didn’t seem to stop you from being a ‘terror’ as you put it.

    So you still missed the point Lovecress. What it did do is prevent me from going from just being a real annoying kid to a criminal, which IMO was worth it. And who knows, maybe if they had spanked me even more often, it would have actually stopped being a terror too.

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  23. richtaylor365

    Yes, CM, I know what you meant, I just thought it funny that you come here with ,”Why would I hurt my kids?”, then proceed to explain how you hurt your kids and why that is just so much more superior to how others hurt their kids.

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  24. Xetrov

    I kicked my older sister when I was about 7 once. My father took a yard stick to my backside because of it. It’s the only time I was ever spanked, and I remember it like it was yesterday. I’m glad he did it. I never hit either of my sisters again, and to this day I still hold doors for women, and can’t bring myself to sit in a chair in a room if a woman is standing. I attribute my respect for women to his spanking, but more than that, to his example.

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  25. Seattle Outcast

    Uh, CM, the reason you execute people is to get rid of them because society can no longer tolerate their continued existence due to the danger they represent. It isn’t, as you seem to believe, comparable to a deterrent or punishment given to children who grossly misbehave.

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  26. CM

    Yes, very good Rich. You sure got me there.

    Xetrov, do you really not think you could have grown up to respect women (as much) without that spanking? Would he have not spanked you if you’d kicked your older brother?

    Seattle, so the death penalty isn’t designed to be a punishment or deterrent at all then? I call bullshit.

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  27. ilovecress

    I attribute my respect for women to his spanking, but more than that, to his example.

    Which was it? The spanking, or the example your father set? If he hadn’t spanked you that one time, do you not think that his example as a father would have been enough?

    That’s my point to the Alex situation – you’re attributing causation to the spanking arbitrarily to suit the argument. Alex’s spanking stopped him from crossing a very specific line (criminality) but didn’t stop him from being ‘a terror’.

    My guess (and it is just that) would be that Xetrovs respect for women owes more to the attitudes and values that his father instilled in him over many years – rather than a couple of whacks with a ruler.

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  28. richtaylor365

    CM, my point was not to get you, but to maybe shine a light on those absolutes of yours (all spankings are child abuse, those parents that spank lack self control/are not smart enough to understand and utilize other options). Sure, some parents may over react and spank out of frustration, but some use it as just one more tool in the shed, use spanking (judiciously) in a calm manner, well thought out and for a purpose.

    They say there is more than one way to skin a cat. Instead of turning up your nose at those that have a different point of view, have a dialogue. Just maybe for some the practice is by design and not as a knee jerk reaction because they got nothing else.

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  29. Section8

    Exactly Rich. THIS ^^^^

    Also, thanks for your post last year on the GOT. Got me hooked.

    Best of all, I love the armchair psychiatrists here who not only know every situation out there regarding other people’s children and parents and how best to handle things, all billions of them, but even know more about some of our own childhoods and the outcome of events than we do. Classic. I wonder what type of parenting leads to that horseshit?

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  30. Xetrov

    Xetrov, do you really not think you could have grown up to respect women (as much) without that spanking?

    I doubt it. To this day, every time I am presented with holding open a door, or offering a woman my chair, that night flashes through my mind. Not the pain, but the lesson taught in conjunction with the pain. Might I still hold doors for women, or get out of my seat? Sure, but it wouldn’t impress upon my mind as fully that it is expected of me as a man, and that that is how I choose to live.

    Would he have not spanked you if you’d kicked your older brother?

    Being the youngest of six, my older brothers would have just beat me down for kicking them, and they likely would have been the ones in trouble afterwards.

    Which was it? The spanking, or the example your father set?

    Didn’t I already answer that?

    If he hadn’t spanked you that one time, do you not think that his example as a father would have been enough?

    No, no I don’t. Not in the same vein that it is impressed upon me today.

    That’s my point to the Alex situation – you’re attributing causation to the spanking arbitrarily to suit the argument.

    Actually, I’m just expressing my opinion on how I remember being spanked in my own life, and the result of it. If it didn’t “suit the argument”, I wouldn’t have brought it up. If I had had a father that beat me mercilessly every chance he got, I’d have brought that up if I felt safe enough to share it, and my resulting experience from it.

    My guess (and it is just that) would be that Xetrovs respect for women owes more to the attitudes and values that his father instilled in him over many years – rather than a couple of whacks with a ruler.

    My guess (and it isn’t just that) would be that I don’t personally give a shit what you think my respect for women is attributed to. I shared a personal experience of mine and my memories of it as to why spanking isn’t necessarily always a negative thing. I didn’t ask to be psychoanalyzed, and I’m not condoning beating children before you try to take the argument there either.

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  31. ilovecress

    for f*cks sake Xetrov – its a discussion – calm down mate. Man you guys throw your toys out of the pram sometimes…

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  32. Section8

    Who says he’s angry, maybe you’re just paranoid. Responding to your claims of “guessing” what he took away from his childhood even though he already outlined it pretty clearly is a bad thing? Of course there was a bit of arrogance there on your part by first by telling him he needed to revise his story and narrow it down to either the punishment or his father’s examples as the reason for his current conduct and views, rather than a blend of events. Very binary of you tisk tisk. Then following up by “guessing” on what he really meant or should have meant given he’s in no position to be an authority on his own mind apparently. My guess is he should be grateful and not angry. The world certainly is blessed to have such people like you with such amazing abilities.

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  33. CM

    Hahaha that’s funny, every week I get told what I really mean or really think and I don’t recall anyone ever having a problem with that. Different standards I guess huh. What Xetrov describes sounds very much like trauma.

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  34. Section8

    Calm down mate. We all know you’re the real victim here. You always are.

    Doesn’t appear Xetrov felt traumatized based on his OWN writings of his OWN childhood, but again I guess it’s just ignorance on his part. Glad to have you more superior folks around. Must have been some great parenting to give yourselves such delusions of your commanding ability to know how someone else should interpret an event in their own childhood. Anyhow, another thread heading down the hole of ridiculousness.

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  35. Xetrov

    Holy shit. I’m a traumatized, deluded idiot. Thank you so much, CM/ILC for opening my eyes. My father was such a bastard. I now see the truth.

    CM, I have never told you what you really think, or really felt based on a personal experience that you shared. I expected better.

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  36. Seattle Outcast

    Seattle, so the death penalty isn’t designed to be a punishment or deterrent at all then? I call bullshit.

    It’s a punishment in that you have to commit a crime so serious that you can’t be allowed to exist any longer in order for it to be meted out.

    It’s a deterrent in that once you’re dead you don’t commit any more crimes.

    It’s bullshit to you because you’re an idiot.

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  37. ilovecress

    Anyhow, another thread heading down the hole of ridiculousness.

    Exactly. I was just responding to a comment with my opinion and suddenly everyone gets pissy. I even made sure (in my parentheses) that you all knew I was making wild guesses in order to continue the discussion. It was as gentle a comment as I could make it so as not to offend – but there you go I guess.

    Maybe I should have put a smiley face at the end?

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  38. CM

    Calm down mate. We all know you’re the real victim here. You always are.

    I’m totally calm thanks. Who says I’m not? Nice way to reinforce your double standard there though. Couldn’t really have scripted it any better.
    You can’t hide your double-standards by throwing back accusations. You can try, but it doesn’t work.

    Glad to have you more superior folks around.

    You really need to get over this whole inferiority shtick.

    Must have been some great parenting to give yourselves such delusions of your commanding ability to know how someone else should interpret an event in their own childhood.

    All I said was that it sounded like trauma. It matches the definition. Xetrov is free to interpret the event as he sees fit.

    I didn’t get hit with a stick but I respect women – although I believe in true equality and I think that’s a greater and deeper level of respect than Xetrov’s examples.

    Holy shit. I’m a traumatized, deluded idiot. Thank you so much, CM/ILC for opening my eyes. My father was such a bastard. I now see the truth.

    It certainly sounds like trauma, i.e. an emotional response to a distressing or disturbing experience). Not saying you are traumatized or deluded or an idiot (I certainly don’t think any of those things about you, trauma is on a continuum and manifests itself in a variety of ways). And I would certainly not call your father anything of the sort.
    Personally I’d rather my kids learn lessons (including the big ones) via reason (and also via non-physical punishments).

    CM, I have never told you what you really think, or really felt based on a personal experience that you shared. I expected better.

    No, you haven’t. I should have made it clearer that I wasn’t including you in that. My apologies.

    For the record, I don’t think a gentle smack should be a punishable offence. I supported the change in our law because it put an end to a stupid loophole. But that doesn’t extend to taking a yardstick to a kid. In my view that should be an offence. I think there is a line somewhere (but then whatever system you have, there is going to be a line somewhere).

    It’s a punishment in that you have to commit a crime so serious that you can’t be allowed to exist any longer in order for it to be meted out.

    It’s a deterrent in that once you’re dead you don’t commit any more crimes.

    It’s a punishment and a deterrent. You’ve killed someone, which is wrong, so now we’ll kill you.

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  39. Section8

    I’m totally calm thanks. Who says I’m not?

    And what a way to back that up than with your ensuing rant.

    You really need to get over this whole inferiority shtick.

    then

    …although I believe in true equality and I think that’s a greater and deeper level of respect than Xetrov’s examples.

    No need for me to try to add to that comedy.

    But that doesn’t extend to taking a yardstick to a kid. In my view that should be an offence.

    Lucky it doesn’t. Sounds like most of our parents would be felons. Of course there’s no superiority complex surrounding you. It’s just that you’re so just the might of government should be on your side. Doesn’t really matter what anyone else thinks about whether they felt like they were a victim of a felony or not. They were traumatized and just don’t know it. Of course you said you really didn’t mean that, but proceeded to contradict yourself anyhow. In a superior sort of way of course.

    Anyhow. My feeling has turned to boredom. Until next time genius.

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  40. richtaylor365

    I know I shouldn’t, but it is a slow news day (except for Ryan getting his ass handed to him in a paper bag), so to CM, I’m curious, how is your belief in “true equality” different from Xetrov’s apparent phony equality, a distinction you specifically went out of your way to make?

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  41. CM

    Doesn’t really matter what anyone else thinks about whether they felt like they were a victim of a felony or not.

    Not when they’re 7. It’s the responsibility of adults and the state. The line is drawn at some point between the two. IMO it’s before being hit with a stick. That’s my opinion. And it’s a fairly strong one.

    They were traumatized and just don’t know it. Of course you said you really didn’t mean that, but proceeded to contradict yourself anyhow. In a superior sort of way of course.

    How did I contradict myself? It’s likely that many of us have experienced some sort of trauma in our lives. That doesn’t mean we’re traumatized adults wandering around like dribbling zombies. It varies considerably in terms of effect, and we all deal with it differently. Maybe look beyond your surface-logic for a couple of seconds. Both in terms of what I mean by trauma (you’re not addressing what trauma actually is, as defined), and how there is always going to have to be a line drawn somewhere (unless you’re advocating that anything short of murder is acceptable).

    Anyhow. My feeling has turned to boredom. Until next time genius.

    Diddums, you hypocritical muppet.
    Ilovecress nailed this one pretty good – there’s obviously not going to be any discussion available here.

    I never said phony Rich. Xetrov was talking about a basic level of ‘respect’ (manifesting by an action in the moment) whereas I’m talking about wider, deeper equality in terms of how society treats women (including but not limited to a women’s right to choose what happens to her body). Respect is obviously not the same as equality (his examples where actually the opposite of equality, as a man is not treating a women how he would treat a man). Of course Xetrov might well embrace actual equality (in all its forms) between men and women, however the examples provided were simply being polite and chivalrous in their company (they would be good examples of paternalism, however that’s not the same as saying that Xetrov subscribes to that view). They’re nice actions, and I’m sure they are appreciated by many, however they are essentially surface-level examples of ‘respect for women’. They are not ‘equality’ by any measure, and respect doesn’t inherently also mean equality.

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  42. Kimpost

    You don’t use violence to discipline your kid, or your dog, or your wife. You might use violence to stop a kid from harming someone else, or to stop it from running into the street, but that’s it.

    It’s never necessary as a disciplinary tool. Spanking should be banned by nanny state laws all over the world. And it will be, just wait. It’s just one of those cultural things that needs some time getting used to.

    When this becomes law, and it will, everywhere, things will change:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_the_Rights_of_the_Child

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  43. Section8

    Exactly Kimpost! And it will be flowers and rainbows and fairies in the sky raining down chocolate candies. No chance at all of abuse on the government side, i.e. throwing people in jail unnecessarily, breaking up families, and bankrupting them while defending themselves in court thereby creating a whole host of true trauma that will last a lifetime. Bless the day when the village idiot politician becomes the parent! Not a cultural change I intend to get used to. Hopefully the rest of society doesn’t as well.

    The UN should worry more about its child rape problems when they go into a country to “help”. That would be something useful.

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  44. Iconoclast

    Just a few observations…

    The point of the original article was, to what level do we let Big Brother dictate how parents raise their kids? Big Brother is already too damned powerful. Our sitting POTUS is clearly above the law of the land, and he acts like it. The very idea that Big Brother can jail someone for spanking their kid should send chills up anyone’s spine, regardless of how opposed you may be to spanking.

    In terms of gender, “equality” is meaningless. Man and Woman are different. They are not equal. The obvious example is that a man will never ever ever ever be able to conceive and/or bear a child, by definition. We have become a generation of wusses, afraid to acknowledge the fundamental differences between the sexes and how they are tailored differently.

    We should stop encouraging girls to be “just like” boys, and we should stop pretending that boys are “defective girls”. Post-modern feminism need to be taken out back and shot in the head. But that will never happen, because we are a generation of wusses. “I would never, ever lay a hand on my child” is Exhibit A. If you can successfully raise your child into a responsible adult without ever spanking him/her, kudos. But don’t legislate away the right of other parents to use spankings if they see fit to use them, you self-rightous, sanctimonious ponces.

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  45. richtaylor365

    I never said phony Rich.

    Of course not, but when you couch your comment by labeling it as “true equality” by implication it is a separation from that which is not true, then you pile on with ,”I think that’s a greater and deeper level of respect than Xetrov’s examples”. Too bad Xetrov never said or even indicated that that one incident shaped his entire life view on women and how they should be treated, so your high opinion of yourself as a comparison to Xetrov’s opinion on women is meaningless.

    No doubt your world view on anything was not shaped by one incident, one fact that you read about, no, it is the totality of everything we have taken in up to this point in our lives. And you get the benefit of this accumulation in formulating your position of “true equality”, but not Xetrov, he recants one incident that happened to him as a kid, you latch on to that to the exclusion of everything else that happened to him or that would refine/mold his opinion of equality, not very sporting. Bottom line is that you have no idea how he thinks about equality, taking one incident to the exclusion of all the others, and this post really wasn’t about that anyway, but it did not stop you from forming an opinion, albeit a fact-less weak one.

    Respect is obviously not the same as equality

    For sure, who said they were? And why did you think the distinction needed to be made? Or was your point simply to denigrate Xetrov as having only “respect” for women, but you, the modern enlightened male that you are, have the total package, respect AND a sense of equality?

    (including but not limited to a women’s right to choose what happens to her body)

    Oh boy, can’t forget about abortion rights, tell me, does the female child inside the female’s womb have similar rights?

    Don’t leave out climate change, if we really cared about equality for women we would do everything we could to lessen the changes to climate so that women could survive on our planet. Now all the bases are covered.

    you self-rightous, sanctimonious ponces.

    Certainly understand the sentiment behind that.

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  46. CM

    Of course not, but when you couch your comment by labeling it as “true equality” by implication it is a separation from that which is not true.

    Sure, but as I said (but which you seem to have completely ignored for some reason) I don’t know if Xetrov’s examples reflect the extent of his ‘respect’, or whether that respect extends to matters of equality. Personally, despite not having been physically punished for something I did to a female as a child, I consider myself to be a strong believer in women being treated the same as men are treated (notwithstanding biological differences). IMO that is the ultimate ‘respect’.

    Too bad Xetrov never said or even indicated that that one incident shaped his entire life view on women and how they should be treated,

    Well he did say “I attribute my respect for women to his spanking, but more than that, to his example”.

    Even then, I explicitly stated that Xetrov may not have intended to summarise his whole attitude to women (equality, respect, etc) by giving those examples. Not sure how you missed that.

    Bottom line is that you have no idea how he thinks about equality

    Which I explictly noted.

    For sure, who said they were?

    Nobody. However we are discussing the effects of being hit as a child. I wasn’t hit and yet I was able to grow up to respect women.

    Oh boy, can’t forget about abortion rights, tell me, does the female child inside the female’s womb have similar rights?

    Again, we all have to pick a line somewhere. Unless we take one extreme or the other. I’m not at an extreme on either issue (physical punishment or abortion).

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  47. richtaylor365

    Informing us that you possess “true equality” negates any backpeddling that you are doing now. You specifically delineated your true equality from that which Xetrov possessed which was only “respect”, if it was not out of a sense of superiority, here is your chance to explain otherwise.

    The funny thing is that he shared one isolated experience from when he was a kid, and you projected that one incident into how he views women now, a narrow primitive opinion that only rates a “respect”, when in point of fact he may possess an even truer sense of equality then you. But one would not get that impression from your comments.

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  48. CM

    Informing us that you possess “true equality” negates any backpeddling that you are doing now. You specifically delineated your true equality from that which Xetrov possessed which was only “respect”, if it was not out of a sense of superiority, here is your chance to explain otherwise.

    Rich, in the post I specifically referred to the “examples” Xetrov provided. I.e. I explicitly made it clear that I wasn’t taking into account the entirety of his views about women. But after re-reading it all I do acknowledge that I should have avoided trying to make any sort of comparison of attitudes to women based on those examples, and left the comparison to just how those attitudes might have developed.

    The funny thing is that he shared one isolated experience from when he was a kid, and you projected that one incident into how he views women now,

    Your theory is inconsistent with these statements:
    1. ” I attribute my respect for women to his spanking, but more than that, to his example.” ~ Xetrov
    2. “Of course Xetrov might well embrace actual equality (in all its forms) between men and women” ~ CM
    3. “however that’s not the same as saying that Xetrov subscribes to that view” ~ CM

    Notwithstanding that, as acknowledged above, my comparison has obviously implied something which should not have been implied. I certainly apologise to Xetrov (someone I respect a great deal) for the implication.

    a narrow primitive opinion that only rates a “respect”, when in point of fact he may possess an even truer sense of equality then you. But one would not get that impression from your comments.

    That’s the point I was making about his comments. How he treats and regards women does go significantly deeper than the examples he provided. Perhaps his examples weren’t specifically chosen to be narrow in their focus, perhaps that’s just how I interpreted them. My point was to say that if I kids don’t necessarily need to get hit with sticks to grow up with beliefs about gender equality, then perhaps the hitting isn’t actually required.

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