Not Guilty

That was quick:

A jury acquitted George Zimmerman on Saturday night of all charges in the death of Trayvon Martin, bringing to an end a case that set off nationwide protests and searing debates over racial justice and self-defense laws.

I am watching Foxnews and the lead prosecutor is still trying the case in front of the media.

Personally, I am glad at the outcome, strictly from the stand point of what the evidence told me. The circumstances being what they were, the whole case of was going to come down to certain perceptions. There was no eye witness or any probative elements that pointed strongly one way or the other. Using a baseball analogy, a tie does go to the runner, the burden to prove guilt is placed with the state, in this case, they did not meet the standard.

The obvious point remains, Zimmerman might very well have been guilty of the charges brought, but placing someone in prison is serious stuff, the old I’d rather see 100 guilty men go free then have one innocent man go to jail, applies here.

Any other thoughts?

Comments are closed.

  1. richtaylor365 *

    I forgot to add that everyone lost here, except for the standard that justice was served. Even given the unproven fact that Travon punched first, that Travon was the instigator, the primary mover of actions ultimately leading to his demise, he did not deserve this fate. His family did not deserve his absence in their lives, and Zimmerman’s life will never ever be the same. I predict that you will hear his name again in the news in the not so distant future, and it will not be good news for him.

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  2. HARLEY

    What si there to day ?
    A young man is dead, due to his violent natures, the man that shot him , his life will forever be stained by this.
    The Federal gov, media and various talking heads, all colluded to judge this man and threaten violence if THEIR ideas of justice was not carried out.
    sad state of affairs for our nation.

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  3. Biggie G

    Harley,

    Since you are the resident gun nut, I have a question for you. A lot of people, mainly those who don’t like guns, take the fact the GZ was armed as an intent to kill someone. Isn’t that just what people with a CCW do? They carry concealed. When you are carrying, you can;t just leave your gun in the car can you? I always figured that the gun is on you or it is home. Anything in between would just leave you open to more liabilities.

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  4. Seattle Outcast

    I’m of the opinion that Trayvon likely got EXACTLY what he deserved. Being a violent punk should have consequences equal to being a violent punk. Perhaps his best purpouse in life is to serve as an example to others for how karma is a bitch.

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  5. HARLEY

    A lot of people, mainly those who don’t like guns, take the fact the GZ was armed as an intent to kill someone. Isn’t that just what people with a CCW do

    IF, that was true
    Every law enforcement officer could be accused f the same too.
    As to the attitude of CCW carries, i cant accept teh line of thought that they would jsut wantt o kill someone heh, why get a CCW anyway, just go and shoot someone, like the do down there in the hood?.

    When you are carrying, you can;t just leave your gun in the car can you? I always figured that the gun is on you or it is home. Anything in between would just leave you open to more liabilities.

    Privately owned and public property’s in a many CCW states have signs that state CCW weapons are not allowed, which is their right to do so. As for liabilities, yeah there are some, and given the litigious society we have, and training received in CCW classes, you NEVER pull your weapon unless there is a very VERY good reason to do so. Leaving it in your car opens the possibility to it being stolen,and if you are in a high crime area, well that is really possible. In some states there are moments to make you legally responsible if your weapon is stolen and then used in a crime. Keeping your weapon under postive control is Your responsibility….
    now as for me, in Missouri they has a shall issue CCW law , which allows a person to have a loaded handgun inside their vehicle concealed. For me this is good enough, i really don’t travel into areas that i would consider dangerous enough to have to carry,and the area that i do go to such as St Louis and KC, do not really look kindly on this law. Illinois is currently undergoing the process of adopting a CCW law, but from the looks of it is is a convoluted mess….and from the sounds of it ti will not allow for out of state CCW permits…..

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  6. HARLEY

    oh another thing, if GZ, was intending on killing Travon, wound tit be logical to expect him to have his gun drawn, hell Police under the exact circumstances would have likely had their weapons out.
    When GZ was attacked his weapon was holstered,and only used when he was on his back and being struck.
    No he wasn’t out to shoot anyone that night.

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  7. Mississippi Yankee

    The obvious point remains, Zimmerman might very well have been guilty of the charges brought, but placing someone in prison is serious stuff, the old I’d rather see 100 guilty men go free then have one innocent man go to jail, applies here.

    Of the four posters here at RTFTLC I wondered who’s narcissism would get the best of them and be first to put up this story. Glad to see it was rich, ’cause his post usually come with platitudes too.

    Now we will all get to see George Zimmerman get financially ass raped in civil trial. “Pain & Suffering” cost big money.

    P.S. bet they (S. Africa) pull the plug on Nelson Mandela within days.
    Yes CM, we will see…

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  8. Poosh

    This whole even taught me that race – in the eyes of the liberal media – really *is* fluid… unless you’re black. Zimmerman was white, before he was white Hispanic …. I look forward to such a description being made in regard to their darling Obama.

    Just wondering what people thought of the Marissa Alexander case? Which seems pretty horrible I have to say.

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  9. Seattle Outcast

    If you listen to that moronic attention-whore Nancy Grace, then you’d believe that CCW is “sauntering around with a gun” and “just looking to kill someone.” Which is pretty much the exact opposite of everybody I’ve ever known that carrying weapons, openly or concealed.

    The whole thing about having a weapon (unless you’re a violent punk kid) is to actually never be in a position to need it, but to have it there when the shit hits the fan and there is no other options. It’s like studying martial arts – the typical expert unarmed fighter will most likely never see much opportunity to engage in a fight outside of practice. Part of your training is about making sure that you don’t put yourself in those situations, and when they find you anyway you are able to end them with minimal damage (to yourself at least).

    Of the two fights I found myself in as an adult I managed to end one of them by scaring away the idiot that started it, and ended the other one by me breaking his hands and my girlfriend pulling a gun on his buddies who decided that perhaps a dozen of them against me would be a fair fight.

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  10. AlexInCT

    It’s premature to celebrate any justice in this case. Zimmerman got off this time, and while that makes me happy, I am not deluded enough to think this is the end of this travesty. The Obama machine will not give up until they have destroyed him. That’s because they can’t afford to let Zimmerman win. And more importantly, to want to keep this race issue in people’s minds ahead of the numerous abuses of power and the rampant criminal behavior by Black Jesus’ crew that the they and the LSM are trying so hard to make us all forget about. With the left politics and ideology will always trump justice. They will find some thing to fuck Zimmerman over with, and he will pay for fighting them on this. My guess is that the DOJ will come after him next. Holder doesn’t much care about the law, anyway, and he knows they need this distraction, even if it makes it more obvious how petty and vile they all are.

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  11. richtaylor365 *

    It’s premature to celebrate any justice in this case.

    We can celebrate the fact that Zimmerman is a free man and will not spend the next 25 years in prison. Re: civil rights charges, I don’t think this will happen. If he was a white cop acting under color of authority, absolutely, but not under his present circumstances.

    Zimmerman will still need to go into hiding, probably for a very long time so in that respect his freedom is diminished greatly. He still has his legal fees to pay, don’t know the particulars but that will easily be high 6 figures. Whatever future employment he hopes to secure, the ability to provide for himself, that remains a big fat question mark.

    I am glad that he was able to fall back on the support of his family and his wife, he is going to need it.

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  12. Hal_10000

    I don’t think there’s anything to “celebrate here”. I think the jury made the right decision, thankfully, that the State had not proven either that Zimmerman intended to kill Martin or that he engaged in reckless behavior that killed martin. The only person who really knows what happened is Zimmerman.

    But people get railroaded by our justice system every day. It’s very rare that a case like this pops up where people pay attention. But every George Zimmerman who gets a good lawyer who defends him, there a hundred others who are either convicted or plead out.

    What happened to Trayvon was a stupid senseless tragedy. Obama said he could have been his son but he really could have been anyone. No one should be happy about what happened in any respect.

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  13. Mook

    Even given the unproven fact that Travon punched first, that Travon was the instigator, the primary mover of actions ultimately leading to his demise, he did not deserve this fate.

    If Trayvon did in fact violently assault Zimmerman as appears likely, and was pounding his head against concrete as Z screamed out for help, then he did deserve his fate. Had Z not acted in self defense, the outcome would have been death or severe injury to Zimmerman, who did nothing wrong other than follow at a distance someone exhibiting suspicious behavior.

    It’s not substantively different than the victim of a rape shooting the attacker

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  14. Seattle Outcast

    If I was GZ I’d be looking for someplace nice and remote to hole up, change my looks, perhaps even name and generally cut myself off from this crap for the rest of my life. If it got really nasty, I’d look to leaving the country.

    Holder, our racist & race-baiting AG will make some effort to file federal charges against the man who killed Obama’s (our racist and race-baiting “president”) proxy “if I had a son” child in order to keep NAACP pacified. This will be timed to help with the 2014 election. Fully expect this to be the excuse needed for protests next year, with lavish reporting done by MSNBC.

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  15. Poosh

    What happened to Trayvon was a stupid senseless tragedy. Obama said he could have been his son but he really could have been anyone

    What grounds is this a tragedy? From what I can ascertain, and there are plenty of eye witnesses, Trayvon was a thug who brought this on himself, he was complicit in his demise. It was not senseless at all. And it could not have been Obama’s son, nor “anyone” but only someone with the kind of mentality that is sadly prevalent in certain subcultures.

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  16. Poosh

    He still has his legal fees to pay, don’t know the particulars but that will easily be high 6 figures.

    And that is the evil inherent in the system.

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  17. grady

    Travon Martin’s parents have already gotten a payoff from the homeowners association. Just over $1 million was the estimate. Not sure what Florida law says about anyone going after GZ for “violation of his civil rights”, but it’s hard to see that happening after a not-guilty verdict. OJ found out differently.

    I had read a bit on Travon’s twitter feed and it seems pretty obvious that he did not care about his education, was not going to try and be a productive member of society, enjoyed doing drugs and the fight club stuff. This guy seems to be a walking stereotype. If GZ did not kill him, how much longer before someone else did, or he was in prison for a long sentence?

    And how much did his parents really know about what he did in his life? I know they must be hurting with the death of their son, but I don’t see them being any kind of positive influence. Travon was on his 3rd suspension from school. He was involved in drugs, fighting and apparently theft. Friends did not seem like they cared a lot about education either.

    This sounds like the standard ghetto life, ending too early. This time it happened to be a neighborhood watch volunteer that was behind the trigger.

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  18. grady

    He still has his legal fees to pay, don’t know the particulars but that will easily be high 6 figures.

    I have also read a few things about GZ having pretty good financial backing for his legal fees. Not sure if it will cover everything, but he will likely be OK financially if the courtroom antics stop here.

    Not sure where he can find a job or live a life without harassment.

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  19. richtaylor365 *

    But every George Zimmerman who gets a good lawyer who defends him, there a hundred others who are either convicted or plead out.

    Lets talk about that for a minute. The reason Zimmerman was “railroaded” was specifically because the media was paying attention to this one. Sanford PD originally did not charge Zimmerman, their thorough investigation revealed no violation of any existing laws. But political/racial expediency demanded that something be done, that charges be filed, even when the facts pointed to no wrongdoing, so we had our show trial. But for all those poor schmucks you cry over, the ones that have to plead out to a lesser offense, they do this for their benefit as well. I’m no fan of the pleas bargain system but understand it’s necessity, like politics (and making sausage) deal making is beneficial to both sides.

    I realize it is De regueur around here to rag on the cops or authority in general, but precious few posts are written about the child molester that gets only probation, the serial drunk driver who never gets locked up and one day while blitzed T-bones and kills a family of five, the burglar who keeps getting a plea bargain that reduces his crimes to misdemeanors and not felonies so he never goes to prison and is free to make your house his next target, or the murderer who had a better lawyer then the over worked and fresh out of law school DA and walks free in the face of overwhelming evidence against him.

    Yet despite the countless examples of really bad dudes going free or not serving proper sentences, I believe that our justice system does work. It works because of the presumption of innocence, because the burden of proof lies with the state, because most times the defense has better lawyers then the people, and because society is always revamping the system, poking and prodding it to get better. No it’s not perfect, what is? and mistakes do sometimes happen, as with all things involving fallible human beings.

    What happened to Trayvon was a stupid senseless tragedy

    But as Zimmerman’s lawyer said last night, given this tragedy, to convict Zimmerman of any wrong doing would have been a travesty.

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  20. Mook

    My guess is that the DOJ will come after him next. Holder doesn’t much care about the law, anyway

    Looks like Alex’s prediction will likely come true:

    On Sunday, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV) asked for the Justice Department to prosecute George Zimmerman

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  21. InsipiD

    On Sunday, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV) asked for the Justice Department to prosecute George Zimmerman

    And what the hell does he have to do do with it (emphasis added)?

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  22. mrblume

    but precious few posts are written about the child molester that gets only probation,

    He must have been a police officer.

    placing someone in prison is serious stuff

    Or, is it a fun past time?

    but precious few posts are written about the child molester that gets only probation, the serial drunk driver who never gets locked up and one day while blitzed T-bones and kills a family of five, the burglar who keeps getting a plea bargain that reduces his crimes to misdemeanors and not felonies so he never goes to prison and is free to make your house his next target, or the murderer who had a better lawyer then the over worked and fresh out of law school DA and walks free in the face of overwhelming evidence against him

    That’s because the burglar doesn’t deserve a life sentence on the hypothesis that *maybe* he’ll commit another crime; it’s the natural extension of your “rather let a 100 guilty people go free”. You should rather give a hundred burglars are punishment too lenient than one a sentence that is unjust. Especially if it is one so grossly unjust as US sentences frequently are.

    Yet despite the countless examples of really bad dudes going free or not serving proper sentences, I believe that our justice system does work.

    When confronted with a system where outcomes can often only be described as undistilled evil, saying “it works” is unacceptable. National disgrace is a good start, but it really is worse than that.

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  23. Thrill

    Of the four posters here at RTFTLC I wondered who’s narcissism would get the best of them and be first to put up this story.

    Speaking as the most narcissistic of the Authors, I assure you that I would have done it if I’d been in town. My only comment now is to mock today’s youth who are too stuck on their Twitterverse lives to even bother going out to riot.

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  24. Hal_10000

    What grounds is this a tragedy? From what I can ascertain, and there are plenty of eye witnesses, Trayvon was a thug who brought this on himself, he was complicit in his demise. It was not senseless at all.

    There are no witnesses to this effect. There are witnesses that there was a fight and some evidence that Trayvon was getting the upper hand. But no one except Zimmerman really knows what happened. Martin had no juvenile record. He had been suspended from school, but not for violent behavior. Branding him as a thug is no more fact-based than branding Zimmerman a murderer.

    But as Zimmerman’s lawyer said last night, given this tragedy, to convict Zimmerman of any wrong doing would have been a travesty.

    Agreed.

    As for people getting railroaded, you need only look at the same district where Marissa Alexander just got a 20-year prison sentence for firing warning shots at an (alleged) abusive husband. You need only look a the hundreds of cases that the Innocence Project has gotten exonerations on and realize how limite their resources are. You need only look at the 97% conviction rate of our criminal justice system and the fact that 90% of cases ended in a guilty plea. You need only look at the tens of thousands of people having their lives ruined by the sex offender registry for such crimes as urinating in public. These are not Radley Balko fantasies; these things happen. I will put that up against the occasional and usually apocryphal criminal getting off on a technicality or child molester getting probation. A childhood friend of mine got 20 years in prison and killed himself because a kid said he once touched him. The scales fo justice are WAY tipped in favor of the state. The thing about the Zimmerman case (or the Duke Lacross case) is that they almost always end in convictions.

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  25. Thrill

    As for people getting railroaded, you need only look at the same district where Marissa Alexander just got a 20-year prison sentence for firing warning shots at an (alleged) abusive husband.

    Awkward…

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  26. Mook

    As for people getting railroaded, you need only look at the same district where Marissa Alexander just got a 20-year prison sentence for firing warning shots at an (alleged) abusive husband

    From Thrill’s post on another thread:

    The only way this case would have anything to do with Fla v. Zimmerman is if Zimmerman had invited Martin over to his house for breakfast, showed him some pictures on his cell phone, and then had Martin discover some suggestive texts from Rachel Jenteal. From there, they’d have an argument, and Zimmerman would have been in such fear that instead of leaving the house and summoning police, he would walk over to his parked car in the garage, get his gun, and come back to shoot at Martin’s head as he was trying to leave. From there, Zimmerman would have had to post bail and then show up at Martin’s house (in violation of a court order) to start more shit.

    Alexander has nothing to hang onto here.

    Awkward indeed

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  27. InsipiD

    “The death of Trayvon Martin was a tragedy. Not just for his family, or for any one community, but for America. I know this case has elicited strong passions. And in the wake of the verdict, I know those passions may be running even higher. But we are a nation of laws, and a jury has spoken. I now ask every American to respect the call for calm reflection from two parents who lost their young son. And as we do, we should ask ourselves if we’re doing all we can to widen the circle of compassion and understanding in our own communities. We should ask ourselves if we’re doing all we can to stem the tide of gun violence that claims too many lives across this country on a daily basis. We should ask ourselves, as individuals and as a society, how we can prevent future tragedies like this. As citizens, that’s a job for all of us. That’s the way to honor Trayvon Martin.”

    That’s what our president said about this. Not a word about how the justice system affirmed that you have a right to defend yourself from attack. Nothing about how a man found not guilty of a crime now can (try) to continue his life, and should be able to. No mention of any possibility that a young and fit guy should think twice before going all ground and pound on a slower, older, fatter guy instead of leaving. Everyone acts like Zimmerman had some obligation to stand down without any question of whether Martin just simply shouldn’t have been there.

    If this is leadership, I won’t follow.

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  28. Hal_10000

    Awkward…

    Didn’t see that post when I made my comment. :) I would point out however that your link is to the state’s statement, not any finding of fact.

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  29. Thrill

    Has Alexander disputed any of the facts as presented though? As far as I can tell, the facts are agreed upon, but she believes that SYG should apply anyway.

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  30. Mississippi Yankee

    A friend of mine wrote me a quote from one of his liberal pals:

    Two assholes showed up, one had a gun. Justice was served.

    Or to put it another way “Two men enter one man leaves”

    Welcome to Amerikka 2013

    Speaking as the most narcissistic of the Authors, I assure you that I would have done it if I’d been in town.

    I knew there were circumstances beyond your control. Hope your va-cay was rejuvenating.

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  31. TxAg94

    This actually may work in Team Obama’s favor. If they apply the right prssures at the right places the civil proceedings will get ramped up right about election time 2014. That’s great news for getting the vote out again.

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  32. richtaylor365 *

    Martin had no juvenile record. He had been suspended from school, but not for violent behavior.

    Are you forgetting about all those text messages and facebook entries where he brags about his awesome fighting skills? The defense even tried to get those admitted into evidence, naturally it was denied.

    You need only look at the 97% conviction rate of our criminal justice system and the fact that 90% of cases ended in a guilty plea.

    Gee, you think that might have something to do with the high bar they set for even filing criminal cases? District Attorney offices are plagued with the same budget constraints as any other public agency. They only file slam dunks because they only have the funds to try a finite amount of cases. DA’s are evaluated on their conviction rate (not so with public defenders). Most DA’s are brand new attorney’s ( the smart seasoned ones go into private practice) and many times they have to go up against heavy hitters, private lawyers who specialize in this type of law. Do you have any idea how many cases they don’t file at all, cases where it is not clear cut but would require some lawyering and they just don’t have the manpower? I know (knew in the past) hundreds of DA’s and PD’s, these are not the cream of the crop and many police agencies have an animus for the DA’s office specifically because they are so damned finicky (lazy) wrt the cases they will file.

    These are not Radley Balko fantasies;

    No, but they are isolated cases used to incite the rabble to light their torches and sharpen their pitchforks. The criminal justice system is constantly being tweaked by the judiciary, it needs to get better, but I’m not willing to throw it out just yet.

    I will put that up against the occasional and usually apocryphal criminal getting off on a technicality or child molester getting probation

    Apocryphal? Are you kidding me? That is the very essence of the plea bargain, factor in no more prison space and DA’s offices that can’t reasonably try the cases they already have, bad guys walk all the time, too bad Radley Balko doesn’t write about that.

    The thing about the Zimmerman case (or the Duke Lacross case) is that they almost always end in convictions.

    Except that both your examples didn’t end in convictions. I guess we can throw Casey Anthony in there as well. For a case to even go to trial they have to believe that they have the goods to convict (except of course the political hack job like what Zimmerman got), and even then they still have the burden to prove. And when that burden is not met, the guy goes free, sounds like a pretty good system to me.

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  33. Mook

    Martin had no juvenile record. He had been suspended from school, but not for violent behavior. Branding him as a thug is no more fact-based than branding Zimmerman a murderer.

    The moral equivalency here is fucked up to the extreme. Martin was expelled 3 times and had been caught with stolen items..It’s exteme to be expelled once, but he managed to get himself expelled 3 times. Trayvon had an extensive trail of thug wannabe violent tendencies on twitter and he was filled racial hatred ala “creepy ass crackas”. Trayvon glorified the thug life in his social media posts. Those like Hal who try to equate the outlandish charges against Zimmerman with the thug wannabe posts by Trayvon are dishonest to the core.. Unlike Trayvon, Zimmermann is by all accounts a stand up guy in his community. Trayvon, although just 17, had no redeeming qualities that I’ve seen. He embraced violence, theft, anti-social behavior and would likely have met a violent ending by another means had he not encountered Zimmerman.

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  34. CM

    The moral equivalency here is fucked up to the extreme. Martin was expelled 3 times….

    If you believe Martin was a “thug wannabe” who decided to finally put it into action (while carrying Skittles candy and cans of iced tea), then how are you any different from those who believe the narrative that ZImmerman was looking for an opportunity to deal with a “fucking punk” and Martin’s death was the foreseeable result.

    AFAIA Zimmerman’s team could produce nothing to indicate anything particularly suspicious about Martin’s actions that night. According to Zimmerman, Martin was walking in the rain, “looking around,” or “looking around at the houses.” But not looking in windows, or jiggling doorknobs or porch screens, or anything that might have suggested a possible burglar. At no point was any evidence presented by the defense to justify their client’s suspicions.
    What exactly was it that indicated to Zimmerman that Martin was just another of those “fucking punks”?
    I mean other than that he was a young black male.
    Would Zimmerman have taken the action he did if Martin had been white? Can anyone honestly believe he would have?

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  35. CM

    It’s exteme to be expelled once, but he managed to get himself expelled 3 times

    Do you mean suspended? Once for “tardiness and truancy”, once for graffiti, and once for a “marijuana pipe and an empty bag containing marijuana residue”.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#Trayvon_Martin

    So no violence involved. Whereas, if you’re wanting to extrapolate past behaviour to fit a narrative, Zimmerman had been charged with assaulting a police officer and resisting arrest (after shoving an officer while a friend of Zimmerman’s was being questioned about underage drinking). The charges were reduced, then dropped when Zimmerman entered a pre-trial diversion program. Also in 2005, Zimmerman’s ex-fiance filed a restraining order against him, alleging domestic violence.

    So when it came to actual physical violence, only one of them had form.

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  36. Section8

    I mean other than that he was a young black male.
    Would Zimmerman have taken the action he did if Martin had been white? Can anyone honestly believe he would have?

    What makes you believe he wouldn’t have called in and reported a white guy? In fact why would it be so far fetched in your mind that it would be out of the realm of honesty?

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  37. CM

    You’d have to explain how what I wrote was in any way ‘progressive’ as I don’t understand (as usual, I’m probably not using the ‘correct’ lens I bet). Am I automatically meant to side against the black guy because some people see a racist angle to what happened? I don’t think for a second that race was involved in the decision (seems to me the jury didn’t have much of a choice) but equally I don’t see how race didn’t determine Zimmerman’s actions that directly led to Martin’s death.

    Is Adam Weinstein correct to say that the lesson right now for Floridians is: “in any altercation, however minor, the easiest way to avoid criminal liability is to kill the counterparty”. I guess so long as there are no eye-witnesses.

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  38. Section8

    Am I automatically meant to side against the black guy because some people see a racist angle to what happened?

    If you’re responding to me, that’s not what I asked. What I did ask was.

    What makes you believe he wouldn’t have called in and reported a white guy?
    In fact why would it be so far fetched in your mind that it would be out of the realm of honesty?

    So I’ll ask again slightly different.

    What is your mind says Zimmerman would not have called in if the guy was white?

    What in your mind says it would be out of the realm of honesty?

    Just curious.

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  39. CM

    Section 8 if that was “the action he took” then nobody would have died and nobody would have stood trial. The far-fetched part would be for some people to admit that it would be considerably less likely to have taken the law into his own hands (by stalking Martin in an aggressive manner to the point where he ended up in a physical fight very close to Martin’s destination, Martin having walked unarmed back from the store with candy and soda, doing nothing illegal and nothing can reasonably be said to even be suspicious) if the kid wasn’t black?. Zimmerman was very clearly out to get the “fucking punk”, because “these arseholes, they always get away”. If he didn’t feel that way he would presumably do what he did previously and wait for the cops. But yeah if it was a white kid, doing nothing but walking and “looking at house” and talking on his phone and carrying his shopping, he might not even have made the call. But he was so sure of what was happening, he didn’t leave it at that.
    None of this means that Zimmerman didn’t end up believing his life was in danger and shooting Martin in ‘self-defence’ of course. It seems that Florida a jury could believe that a black man walking back from the store could end up getting killed and still find the guy that killed him innocent of murder or manslaughter because most of the facts are deemed to be irrelevant.

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  40. CM

    No sorry Section 8, my bad, I’m doing this on a tablet and quoting is a pain. You posted yours while I was responding to MY.

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  41. Section8

    But yeah if it was a white kid, doing nothing but walking and “looking at house” and talking on his phone and carrying his shopping, he might not even have made the call. But he was so sure of what was happening, he didn’t leave it at that.

    What is your mind says Zimmerman would not have called in if the guy was white?

    What in your mind says it would be out of the realm of honesty?

    Just curious.

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  42. Iconoclast

    AFAIA Zimmerman’s team could produce nothing to indicate anything particularly suspicious about Martin’s actions that night.

    Nor did they need to, since the trial was about whether Zimmerman’s shooting Martin was an act of murder or self-defense, not whether Martin’s actions were “suspicious” according to some arbitrary metric.

    According to Zimmerman, Martin was walking in the rain, “looking around,” or “looking around at the houses.” But not looking in windows, or jiggling doorknobs or porch screens, or anything that might have suggested a possible burglar. At no point was any evidence presented by the defense to justify their client’s suspicions.

    Irrelevant, unless you consider it a crime to be suspicious of someone, or if you consider it a crime to have criteria for “suspicious behavior” that differs from your own personal criteria.

    What exactly was it that indicated to Zimmerman that Martin was just another of those “fucking punks”?
    I mean other than that he was a young black male.

    Probably nothing, but again, that doesn’t (or at least shouldn’t) constitute criminal behavior. We should be free to be suspicious of anything we want, for any reason whatsoever, and we should be free to take any action we see fit to take as long as it doesn’t cause harm to another person. According to the testimony, that’s precisely what Zimmerman did, he got suspicious and took non-criminal action.

    Would Zimmerman have taken the action he did if Martin had been white? Can anyone honestly believe he would have?

    Don’t know, don’t care, not relevant.

    I don’t see how race didn’t determine Zimmerman’s actions that directly led to Martin’s death.

    What you see or don’t see is irrelevant to the case, and it simply doesn’t matter if Zimmerman’s actions were racially motivated, as long as they didn’t cross the line into criminal behavior. After all, how do we know that Martin’s actions weren’t racially motivated? Maybe Martin wanted to teach that “creepy-ass cracker” a lesson or two about trying to keep tabs on the acts of a black thug. Martin could indeed have fled the premises, but didn’t.

    Is Adam Weinstein correct to say thst the lesson right now for Floridians is: “in any altercation, however minor, the easiest way to avoid criminal liability is to kill the counterparty”. I guess so long as there are no eye-witnesses.

    He is indeed correct if one is inclined to utterly ignore the actual facts of the case, and instead continues to obsess over spinning the “poor innocent black child victim” narrative out of whole cloth. And your guess is not at all surprising.

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  43. Seattle Outcast

    CM has apparently gotten his version of reality from MSNBC or Al Sharpton. As such, it doesn’t actually match up what has been shown to have actually happened and instead consists of opinions about what people were doing as long as they show GZ to out “hunting black kids with a gun”…

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  44. Mook

    If you believe Martin was a “thug wannabe” who decided to finally put it into action (while carrying Skittles candy and cans of iced tea), then how are you any different from those who believe the narrative that ZImmerman was looking for an opportunity to deal with a “fucking punk” and Martin’s death was the foreseeable result.

    CNN reported that Martin bragged about how many fights he was in. There is video of Martin acting as a referee at “fight club” by his house. He carried around a photo in his cellphone, presumably a photo of himself holding a gun to try and show he was a thug badass. Martin posted numerous photos of himself shooting the bird. So yeah, definitely a thug wannabe and not an honor student. “Creepy ass cracka” demonstrated racial hatred. If Martin was truly in fear of his life, he could have outrun Zimmerman, who was huffing and puffing following at a distance in an INSTANT, but he chose the violent confrontation/ambush, because that was his nature.. to teach that cracka a lesson.

    Zimmerman shoved an officer who was not in uniform 8 years ago when he was 20 and since became a respected member of his community and appointed by those in his community (not “self appointed” as so many leftists have dishonestly alleged) as neighborhood watchman. Although not proof positive, all signs point to Martin being the one with violent fantasies.

    When Z was on the phone with 911 he stated that at one point Martin started to approach him with his hands down his pants. Z told the dispatcher that “something’s wrong” with Martin the way Martin was coming at him with his hands down his pants before disappearing. Only then did the dispatcher advice him that “we don’t need you” to follow Martin. The dispatcher never said “do not follow him”. Shortly thereafter after giving the dispatcher an address Z headed back to his truck when he says he was assaulted by Martin. All evidence, and personal history of both Martin and Zimmerman, suggest that is exactly what happened.

    Hilarious to see CM emphasizing that he was carrying “skittles and ice tea” as if that makes a difference, while omitting that he was high on weed. If you’re going to play the innocent boy carrying skittles and ice tea angle, then don’t dishonestly omit that he had been smoking marijuana.

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  45. Iconoclast

    Hilarious to see CM emphasizing that he was carrying “skittles and ice tea” as if that makes a difference, while omitting that he was high on weed. If you’re going to play the innocent boy carrying skittles and ice tea angle, then don’t dishonestly omit that he had been smoking marijuana.

    And, of course, Skittles are perfect munchies for getting high, and ice tea is perfect for getting rid of cotton-mouth — not that I would personally know about such things…. ;-)

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  46. salinger

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  47. Argive

    Hilarious to see CM emphasizing that he was carrying “skittles and ice tea” as if that makes a difference, while omitting that he was high on weed.

    He had small amounts of marijuana in his system. That does not mean that he was high the night he died. Marijuana stays in your system for a long time after being consumed. And even if he was high, I don’t see the connection. Weed is not known for making people aggressive, unless you believe that Reefer Madness is a 100% factual documentary, instead of the laughably dishonest POS that it is. Arguing that marijuana makes people aggressive is voodoo pharmacology, and is one of the main reasons for why our drug laws are so needlessly punitive. Here’s what a scientist has to say:

    The toxicology exam, which was conducted the morning after Mr. Martin was killed, found a mere 1.5 nanograms per milliliter of blood of tetrahydrocannabinol, or THC, in his body. This strongly suggests he had not ingested marijuana for at least 24 hours. This is also far below the THC levels that I have found necessary, in my experimental research on dozens of subjects, to induce intoxication: between 40 and 400 nanograms per milliliter. In fact, his THC levels were significantly lower than the sober, baseline levels of about 14 nanograms per milliliter of many of my patients, who are daily users. Mr. Martin could not have been intoxicated with marijuana at the time of the shooting; the amount of THC found in his system was too low for it to have had any meaningful effect on him.

    Regardless of how intoxicated Mr. Martin was, the research tells us that aggression and violence are highly unlikely outcomes of marijuana use. Based on my own work, during which I have administered thousands of doses of marijuana, I can say that its main effects are contentment, relaxation, sedation, euphoria and increased hunger, all peaking within 5 to 10 minutes after smoking and lasting for about two hours. It is true that very high THC concentrations — far beyond Mr. Martin’s levels — can cause mild hallucinations and paranoia, but even these effects are rare and usually seen only in very inexperienced users.

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  48. Iconoclast

    yeah – that makes all the difference – fucking kid deserved to die, him and every cracker wigger in the suburbs.

    Nice emotional outburst, there, but hardly surprising. The issue is not whether Martin “fucking…deserved to die”, but whether the portrayal was accurate — “some poor innocent kid carrying tea and candy”…

    Whether he was high or not is ultimately irrelevant, just as utterly irrelevant as to what snacks he was carrying. That’s the real point, here.

    btw – did you know the pejorative cracker is an abbreviation of whip cracker – as in slave owner. Not exactly the equal to nigger.

    Worse than nigger, as it maintains the leftist illusion that blacks are somehow subservient to whites. Whips haven’t been cracked in decades, but clinging to that outdated narrative is utterly racist and hateful. We got a black POTUS, FFS, get a fucking clue, people. The fact that “cracker” is used to describe white (or light-skinned Hispanic) people shows that the racism pendulum has simply swung to the opposite extreme.

    I think the prosecution overcharged succumbing to outside pressures and in doing so blew the case (which may have been their intent all along).

    With the implicit threat of riots waiting in the wings if Zimmerman were acquitted? Maybe they simply didn’t have a real case to “blow”, ever consider that?

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  49. richtaylor365 *

    Holy Smokes CM, this was not one of your better moments, total nonsense, I guess you are just trying to be provocative again, but a massive fail.

    “Nice emotional outburst, there, but hardly surprising.”

    Ditto. Salinger, just when I think you capable of providing the other side in a grown up mature manner, you go and say something like this, one step forward/3 steps back.

    And regarding the skittles and ice tea, ummmm.

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  50. salinger

    Worse than nigger, as it maintains the leftist illusion that blacks are somehow subservient to whites.

    Uh – yeah that would be a valid argument if we were talking about white leftist using the term – but we are not. The term has been used to “prove” Martin was a racist.

    The fact that “cracker” is used to describe white (or light-skinned Hispanic) people shows that the racism pendulum has simply swung to the opposite extreme.

    This is a monumentally ignorant thing to say or believe. Tell Jordi from Star Trek we are living in post racial nation.

    Ditto. Salinger, just win I think you capable of providing the other side in a grown up mature manner, you go and say something like this, one step forward/3 steps back.

    Listen – when someone posts something as stupid as inferring that marihuana use is symptomatic of violent behavior they deserve an equally stupid retort.

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  51. Mook

    Including Zimmerman’s restraining order for domestic violence and his arrest for resisting an officer with violence?

    Domestic violence, if true, would be a criminal charge. There were no criminal charges so no violence was proven. Not a shred of evidence of violence unless you have something more. Zimmerman requested a reciprocal restraining order against his ex-wife for alleged concern over physical violence. Both orders were granted.

    Zimmerman got in a shoving match with an officer who was NOT in uniform who was detaining his friend 8 years ago. Without a uniform, it’s unclear that it was an officer harassing his friend. The officer had an ego and wouldn’t let it go. Charges was later dropped.. everyone in Z’s neighborhood who interacted with him over time had a favorable opinion of him. The exact opposite of TM. The attempts to equate violent thug wannabe TM with Zimmerman are deeply dishonest. Dishonest as hell. TM was troubled as hell, bragged about fighting, expelled 3 times (Trayvon brags that he got at least one expulsion for fighting) gave jewelry to girls although he had no honest job, flashed photos of guns, multiple self photos he posted of himself shooting the bird… text exchange with his friend “So you just turning into a lil hoodlum,” the person with whom he is texting says.”Naw, I’m a gangsta,”. TM spells it out for anyone with an open mind. TM’s recent background and history was EXACTLY the type of thug likely to ambush and assault an innocent neighborhood watchman (“creepy ass cracka”) who was doing nothing wrong.

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  52. salinger

    TM was troubled as hell, bragged about fighting, expelled 3 times (Trayvon brags that he got at least one expulsion for fighting) gave jewelry to girls although he had no honest job, flashed photos of guns, multiple self photos he posted of himself shooting the bird… text exchange with his friend “So you just turning into a lil hoodlum,” the person with whom he is texting says.”Naw, I’m a gangsta,”. TM spells it out for anyone with an open mind. TM’s recent background and history was EXACTLY the type of thug likely to ambush and assault an innocent neighborhood watchman (“creepy ass cracka”) who was doing nothing wrong.

    Troubled as hell? You obviously spend little time with teenagers. This could describe a great many 17 year old boys – black – white – Asian whatever.

    Oh my god he posted pics of himself shooting the bird, he called himself gangsta he must be at fault. I guess it’s the same clairvoyance though that allows one to state:

    The officer had an ego and wouldn’t let it go.

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  53. richtaylor365 *

    Uh – yeah that would be a valid argument if we were talking about white leftist using the term – but we are not. The term has been used to “prove” Martin was a racist.

    Giving us the etymology of a word’s origins is useless in this discussion, you should know that, what is relevant is how the word is used today and what it means to the person using the word. It is interesting that for all the somersaults and contortions the left (you included since you have swallowed this nonsense) have put themselves through in an attempt to paint Zimmerman as a racists, there is zero evidence to prove it. But what we do have in evidence is Martin’s racial pejorative used against Zimmerman. The only racial profiling that can be proved is that of Martin profiling the guy following him.

    Listen – when someone posts something as stupid as inferring that marihuana use is symptomatic of violent behavior they deserve an equally stupid retort.

    And you performed it masterfully, how does that mud puddle feel?

    The problem is that what you read, you did not understand. Nowhere in that sentence can you possibly connect pot use with violent behavior. I think your reading comprehension skills need improving.

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  54. Mook

    This could describe a great many 17 year old boys – black – white – Asian whatever.

    Not “every” kid gets expelled 3 times, participates in a “fight club” and brags about being a gangsta. It’s a safe bet that those who do fit that profile end up dead or in jail by the time they’re 21. Certainly not a profile to be considered acceptable or normal as you suggest.

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  55. salinger

    The problem is that what you read, you did not understand. Nowhere in that sentence can you possibly connect pot use with violent behavior. I think your reading comprehension skills need improving.

    Okay then – please interpret this:

    If you’re going to play the innocent boy carrying skittles and ice tea angle, then don’t dishonestly omit that he had been smoking marijuana.

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  56. grady

    I don’t think the line of Trayvon only returning from the store with skittles and iced tea makes him look like a saint. If Trayvon mixed the skittles, rasberry iced tea and some cough syrup together, he would be making an intoxicating beverage called “lean”. His twitter feed said he was looking to do exactly that in the days before. The narrative that he was bringing these for his little brother may be true, but it is just as likely he was looking to use it for himself.

    The toxicologist stating that Travon was not high on marijuanna at the time does not help much either. My experience has been that people that are high are less likely to initiate violence than when they are not high.

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  57. Mook

    Okay then – please interpret this:

    If you’re going to play the innocent boy carrying skittles and ice tea angle, then don’t dishonestly omit that he had been smoking marijuana.

    You do lack reading comprehension as you just confirmed.

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  58. salinger

    Not “every” kid gets expelled 3 times, participates in a “fight club” and brags about being a gangsta.

    Didn’t say every – I said many. Gangsta didn’t exist when I was growing up (punk did though) but I still managed to get expelled a fistful of times and even did a few things that were against the law. I outgrew it. I think that is why it is called growing up. Something Martin will never have the chance to do.

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  59. salinger

    You do lack reading comprehension as you just confirmed.

    And yet you offer no interpretation. Seems to me the interpretation is that Martin was not innocent because he had smoked weed. Tell me the different interpretation I am missing.

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  60. Mook

    I outgrew it. I think that is why it is called growing up. Something Martin will never have the chance to do.

    TM’s violence forced the shooting to occur. He could have outrun Z in a flash. He chose to confront and ambush him. Z had to defend himself. Otherwise he would be have been murdered or severely injured. All evidence points to it.

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  61. Mook

    Seems to me the interpretation is that Martin was not innocent because he had smoked weed

    Yet your initial interpretation, the one being discussed, was this:

    Listen – when someone posts something as stupid as inferring that marihuana use is symptomatic of violent behavior they deserve an equally stupid retort.

    Nowhere was it suggested as you claim, that use of marijuana is “symptomatic of violent behavior”. Hence the comment about your lack of reading comprehension skills. You made an idiotic emotional outburst in reply and now you’re trying to change words

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  62. salinger

    Nowhere was it suggested as you claim, that use of marijuana is “symptomatic of violent behavior”.

    The inference is not that far fetched – Martin is not innocent because he smoked weed – and by logical extension people who are not innocent are more likely to be violent. (Since in this case we are talking about a violent crime). Seems to me you’re attempting gas lighting.

    And yet again you neglect to offer another interpretation. What exactly do you think was meant by the statement if not that Martin was more likely to be a violent criminal because he had THC in his system?

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  63. Mook

    The inference is not that far fetched – Martin is not innocent because he smoked weed – and by logical extension people who are not innocent are more likely to be violent.

    CM had emphasized in two posts that TM was carrying skittles and a drink. He clearly added that irrelevant detail for effect in a lame attempt to push the narrative that TM was just an innocent child going to the store for candy. Why else bring it up twice when it added nothing to the discussion? I simply pointed out that that he had also been smoking weed, a similarly irrelevant detail, but one which ran counter to CM’s “child with candy” narrative. No inference was made or suggested that marijuana use = violence. That was all your emotionally charged ‘creative interpretation’.

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  64. Iconoclast
    Worse than nigger, as it maintains the leftist illusion that blacks are somehow subservient to whites.

    Uh – yeah that would be a valid argument if we were talking about white leftist using the term – but we are not.

    And that might have been a valid rebuttal if I had actually mentioned “white leftist” at all, but I didn’t. I simply referred to “leftist illusion”, no mention of race, don’t see how it applies. A complete non sequitur on your part.

    The term has been used to “prove” Martin was a racist.

    Well, like it or lump it, “cracker” is a racial slur, your attempts at spin notwithstanding.

    This is a monumentally ignorant thing to say or believe. Tell Jordi from Star Trek we are living in post racial nation.

    No, what is “monumentally ignorant” is your response. For starters, I am not claiming that “we are living in post racial nation”. Just the opposite. And if Levar Burton wants to be terrified of cops, that’s his choice, but it certainly doesn’t prove anything, except that maybe Levar himself is a racist for assuming the worst of white police officers.

    I currently live in the fairly deep South, in the Carolinas, and we have plenty of black cops here. As a white male, should I be terrified of black cops? Or would that be racist?

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  65. Poosh

    Ignoring his past behaviour. much of which I didn’t know (far worse than I assumed) you can hear this on the Zimmerman call to the police, Martin upon realising he was being followed – MOVED TO ZIMMERMAN’S CAR – and probably circled it. You and I both know that’s threatening behavior that only members of certain underclasses engage in. It’s universal thug behavior.

    Agree with the above, Weed makes you docile not violent. Unless, perhaps, it is mixed with other factors. But generally if more criminals were high on weed 24/7 they’d be little crime.

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  66. richtaylor365 *

    Okay then – please interpret this:

    If you’re going to play the innocent boy carrying skittles and ice tea angle, then don’t dishonestly omit that he had been smoking marijuana.

    I try to do as little “interpreting” as possible and take people at their words. The poster in question referenced his pot use with his lack of abject innocence, yet you ran with that and “interpreted” it as a statement of violence. A lack of innocence to me infers that he was not just an innocent bystander but performed actions but moved the events along, was complicit in some way. The pot use (exactly how stoned he was I don’t know) could have been the reason he was acting suspicious, why he was moving within private properties, hugging tree lines, and not walking on the sidewalk like what you and I would do. The pot use might have elicited some paranoia concerning a guy that was following him from a safe distance, not a threat to him. The pot use might have effected his judgment concerning the confrontation or was the prime mover in the confrontation. When I think of pot use, I think of irrational behavior, yet you made the monumental leap that the poster accused him of violent behavior just because he was under the influence of pot.

    And as far as countering a stupid comment with another stupid comment, I have never found that to be very persuasive.

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  67. Iconoclast

    It seems that Florida a jury could believe that a black man walking back from the store could end up getting killed and still find the guy that killed him innocent of murder or manslaughter because most of the facts are deemed to be irrelevant.

    Probably because they are irrelevant, your personal preferences notwithstanding. I mean, what makes your personal spin any more accurate or valid than the testimony and evidence that the Jury actually deliberated? What makes your personal opinion or viewpoint any more valid than that of the Judge, Counsel and Jury?

    What makes you think you know more than the people actually in the courtroom?

    What “seems” to you is utterly irrelevant. What’s relevant is the actual evidence and testimony. Hell, there are some who argued that the Judge gave every possible advantage to the prosecution, claiming that she actually sought a conviction and wasn’t impartial at all.

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  68. AlexInCT

    And if Levar Burton wants to be terrified of cops, that’s his choice,

    Everyone should be terrified of the agents of the state. Especially now that they are militarized. Speaking of Levar Burton, what’s he been doing since the end of STTNG? I once saw him do a guest appearance on The Big Bang, without his visor, and that’s about it. I liked Geordi a ton. As an engineer I even named my pet cat Geordi. Man did that cat get me laid with the ladies back in the day. That kitty was a pussy magnet.

    Look people, it is a tragedy that Martin is dead, but it was IMO, a far greater tragedy that a political/ideological movement chose to use that tragedy to destroy Zimmerman, all so they could flame up racist anger, to turn out the vote, of all things, and to garner sympathy for gun confiscation, but what frightens me is that so many people are unable to see this horror for what it is. Do I wish Martin had not been killed? Absolutely not. Thug or not, I think life is valuable. But I do not want Zimmerman fucked over just because some people have agendas, and believe you me, this whole debacle has been about people with agendas, not about any kind of justice whatsoever. Fuck them for that.

    BTW, I have often told my kid to make sure he understands how people will perceive him by the way he dresses and acts. Sometimes this shit can come back to bite you in the ass.

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  69. AlexInCT

    Hell, there are some who argued that the Judge gave every possible advantage to the prosecution, claiming that she actually sought a conviction and wasn’t impartial at all.

    Those people would be right. You should have seen the judge’s reaction when she was reading the verdict. She looked like someone had clubbed her toy dog and was telling her to sing a happy song or Fifi was going to get it.

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  70. AlexInCT

    I’m staying out of this one. Going to continue partying with my alien friends instead.

    What are they making you slowdance to this time dude? I hope they are switching it up. Chris DeBurgs song is some 25 years old, and it is time for something more contemporary, even if it doesn’t carry the same romantic connotation. And watch for that probing…. Over, and over, and over, and over, and over…

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  71. Iconoclast

    Everyone should be terrified of the agents of the state. Especially now that they are militarized.

    Perhaps, but my point was that the fear should not be racially based — we should fear them all equally, regardless of our skin color, or theirs.

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  72. Xetrov

    It seems that Florida a jury could believe that a black man walking back from the store could end up getting killed and still find the guy that killed him innocent of murder or manslaughter because most of the facts are deemed to be irrelevant.

    Most of the ‘facts” you are hashing in the thread are in fact irrelevant to the case, and the law that governs self-defense in Florida as pointed out by Iconoclast.

    Chapter 776: JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE

    776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—

    The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:

    (1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or

    (2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

    (a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or

    (b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

    As I already stated elsewhere, even if Zimmerman walked up and punched Trayvon for no reason, as soon as Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman (eye-witness), and pounding his head into the ground (physical evidence) making him fear for his life, he was justified in shooting Trayvon. There was no way for the prosecution to prove that was not the case beyond a reasonable doubt with any of the “evidence” you are hashing in the thread, or any other circumstance/evidence about the case.

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  73. Xetrov

    Speaking of Levar Burton, what’s he been doing since the end of STTNG? I once saw him do a guest appearance on The Big Bang, without his visor, and that’s about it.

    He’s been on Big Bang Theory a few times. He had Reading Rainbow going until 2009, probably still making a good chunk off that.

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  74. salinger

    As I already stated elsewhere, even if Zimmerman walked up and punched Trayvon for no reason, as soon as Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman (eye-witness), and pounding his head into the ground (physical evidence) making him fear for his life, he was justified in shooting Trayvon.

    Which is why I think it’s a bad law. Instigation should count against the instigator. (I’m not saying that Zimmerman was the instigator – there’s only one person still alive who knows the truth about that.)

    Here are a few quotes from Zimmerman’s old MySpace page – probably just youthful indiscretion that he outgrew. just as relevant as a 17 year old’s tweets.

    Im still free! The ex hoe tried her hardest, but the judge saw through it! Big Mike, reppin the Dverse security makin me look a million bucks, broke her down! Thanks to everyone for checkin up on me! Stay tuned for the A.T.F. charges……

    2 felonies dropped to 1 misdemeanor!!!!!!!!!!! The man knows he was wrong but still got this hump, Thanks to everyone friends and fam, G baby you know your my rock!

    I dont miss driving around scared to hit mexicans walkin on the side of the street, soft ass wanna be thugs messin with peoples cars when they aint around

    Sounds a little gangsta – no?

    Now I’m not saying this makes him a racist or a criminal – I’m just pointing out that just about everyone has some indiscretions and dredging them up on Martin does not mean he deserved to die.

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  75. CM

    Nor did they need to, since the trial was about whether Zimmerman’s shooting Martin was an act of murder or self-defense, not whether Martin’s actions were “suspicious” according to some arbitrary metric.

    Nor did I say it was relevant to the verdict. I’m speculating about what seems to have happened from the start of the incident until the death, not just “was Zimmerman fearing for his life when he pulled the trigger”. The same goes for the rest of your responses in that post. Of course it’s not a crime to have criteria for “suspicious behavior” that differs from your own personal criteria. I never said it was. Not even remotely.

    After all, how do we know that Martin’s actions weren’t racially motivated?

    Which ones? For at least the vast majority of the incident it seems that he was the one worried about what was happening. But all Zimmerman has to do is to get the jury to believe he feared for his life in the seconds before he pulled the gun and used it. Nevertheless, as I said, I think it’s very likely that ZImmerman made a race-based decision which kicked this whole thing off. He saw Martin as a criminal. He was so convinced he decided to take matters into his own hands. Yet again, I’m not suggesting there is anything illegal in that, before you try to take it back down that road.

    He is indeed correct if one is inclined to utterly ignore the actual facts of the case, and instead continues to obsess over spinning the “poor innocent black child victim” narrative out of whole cloth. And your guess is not at all surprising.

    Wow, nicely misrepresented. Which is not at all surprising. Here we go again.
    Which facts did I ignore? Where did I suggest that Martin was a “poor innocent black child victim”?
    If you’re suggesting he wasn’t innocent walking back from the store, then aren’t you making an irrelevant assessment just as you accused me of doing?

    CM has apparently gotten his version of reality from MSNBC or Al Sharpton. As such, it doesn’t actually match up what has been shown to have actually happened and instead consists of opinions about what people were doing as long as they show GZ to out “hunting black kids with a gun”…

    You really phoned that in didn’t you. You might as well have written “I can’t respond to anything he actually wrote with anything that will make sense, I just don’t like it”.
    I don’t think that ZImmerman was out “hunting black kids with a gun”. But we know for a fact that he had a serious issue with criminal behaviour in the area, and the criminals getting away.

    CNN reported that Martin bragged about how many fights he was in…..

    Etc etc.
    None of which translated into any trouble with the police. Including for violence. But, all of a sudden, he turns all this low-level trash-talking shit into attacking someone? Possible sure, but it doesn’t necessarily follow (just like ZImmerman’s past doesn’t necessarily mean that he wasn’t concerned about getting into violent confrontation either).

    When Z was on the phone with 911 he stated that at one point Martin started to approach him with his hands down his pants.

    He said “he’s got something in his hands” at that point. Earlier he said he had a hand in his waistband while looking around at the houses.

    Z told the dispatcher that “something’s wrong” with Martin the way Martin was coming at him with his hands down his pants before disappearing.

    Again, he said he had something in his hands.

    Only then did the dispatcher advice him that “we don’t need you” to follow Martin. The dispatcher never said “do not follow him”.

    Although of course Zimmerman knew the drill – he’d been told in person about not following (at a meeting). It’s not like he thought the dispatcher was making it up on the hoof.

    Shortly thereafter after giving the dispatcher an address Z headed back to his truck when he says he was assaulted by Martin. All evidence, and personal history of both Martin and Zimmerman, suggest that is exactly what happened.

    It was apparently eight minutes until the shooting happened. How much of that time was Zimmerman following Martin, and how much of it was him “heading back to his truck”?
    I’m probably missed it, but how did he explain how they were so close to the house that Martin was returning to? How far from Zimmerman’s truck did the shooting happen?

    Hilarious to see CM emphasizing that he was carrying “skittles and ice tea” as if that makes a difference, while omitting that he was high on weed. If you’re going to play the innocent boy carrying skittles and ice tea angle, then don’t dishonestly omit that he had been smoking marijuana.

    I see the weed issue has already been addressed.
    It does make a difference in terms of what he was up to and whether it was reasonable for ZImmerman to be suspicious. Not in terms of whether Zimmerman pulled the trigger because he feared for his life in those seconds, but in terms of the decision Zimmerman made which ultimately led to Martin’s death. Whether Martin could be described as “innocent” in life isn’t really relevant to whether he was doing anything wrong walking back from the store. He hadn’t had any problems with the police. He’d not been expelled from school.

    The issue is not whether Martin “fucking…deserved to die”, but whether the portrayal was accurate — “some poor innocent kid carrying tea and candy”…

    He wasn’t doing anything wrong and he was carrying iced tea and candy. Those are facts. No need to spin this to make it look like people are suggesting Martin was some sort of amazing guy.

    Holy Smokes CM, this was not one of your better moments, total nonsense, I guess you are just trying to be provocative again, but a massive fail.

    Right, sure. Care to point out why or how? Otherwise I’m not sure why you bothered.

    TM was troubled as hell, bragged about fighting, expelled 3 times…

    Not “every” kid gets expelled 3 times

    Where exactly are you getting this “expelled” stuff from Mook?

    TM’s recent background and history was EXACTLY the type of thug likely to ambush and assault an innocent neighborhood watchman (“creepy ass cracka”) who was doing nothing wrong.

    Was he a thug or wannabe thug? Because the number of actual thugs must be a very very very small percentage of wannabe thugs. If all the kids Martin’s age acted as they talked and texted then society would be a completely different place. Unrecognisable.

    …in an attempt to paint Zimmerman as a racists, there is zero evidence to prove it.

    I’m not sure we can say with any confidence that either of them were racists. I think it’s very likely that Zimmerman made a race-based decision to take action, because of what had happened previously and his attitude towards criminals getting away. But I don’t know if that makes him a racist person. It seems pretty clear that he was profiling though.

    The only racial profiling that can be proved is that of Martin profiling the guy following him.

    You don’t think Zimmerman’s decision was based on what happened in the area recently (black youths committing crimes and getting away)?
    Martin had no ability to control the race of the guy following him. Whether he hated whites, Hispanics, or Chinese, he was the one ultimately having make reaction decisions based on what was happening. If Zimmerman hadn’t been there, there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that he wouldn’t have continued to his destination without any racial issue arising.

    TM’s violence forced the shooting to occur. He could have outrun Z in a flash. He chose to confront and ambush him. Z had to defend himself. Otherwise he would be have been murdered or severely injured. All evidence points to it.

    Aside from the evidence that doesn’t. Such as where you believe the ‘force’ started (the key decision in all this was Zimmerman’s to start following Martin, and not to mention ‘Neighbourhood Watch’ at any point). It also ignores Dee Dee’s evidence that Martin was out of breath and tired.

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  76. Iconoclast

    I’m just pointing out that just about everyone has some indiscretions and dredging them up on Martin does not mean he deserved to die.

    For the love of Marx, Freud and Darwin, who the hell is arguing that Martin deserved to die based on his past indiscretions? Straw man much?

    Martin confronted Zimmerman, got on top of him and started bashing his head onto the pavement, repeatedly. This is testimony from the trial, that M was on top of Z and bashing his head against the ground. Further testimony states that Z was basically a pudgy wimp while M was in rather good shape.

    Why do you liberals utterly ignore these facts while continuously bitching and bellyaching about irrelevancies and attacking straw men?

    The past indiscretions are brought up to counter the insipid liberal narrative that M was just an innocent little school boy going to the store to buy milk and cookies, when mean old white guy Z “took the law into his own hands” by “aggressively” stalking M and ultimately killing him because Z hated coons, or whatnot.

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  77. salinger

    For the love of Marx, Freud and Darwin, who the hell is arguing that Martin deserved to die based on his past indiscretions? Straw man much?

    Just from this thread:

    I’m of the opinion that Trayvon likely got EXACTLY what he deserved. Being a violent punk should have consequences equal to being a violent punk. Perhaps his best purpouse in life is to serve as an example to others for how karma is a bitch.

    Trayvon was a thug who brought this on himself, he was complicit in his demise. It was not senseless at all.

    Martin was expelled 3 times and had been caught with stolen items..It’s exteme to be expelled once, but he managed to get himself expelled 3 times. Trayvon had an extensive trail of thug wannabe violent tendencies on twitter and he was filled racial hatred ala “creepy ass crackas”. Trayvon glorified the thug life in his social media posts. Those like Hal who try to equate the outlandish charges against Zimmerman with the thug wannabe posts by Trayvon are dishonest to the core.. Unlike Trayvon, Zimmermann is by all accounts a stand up guy in his community. Trayvon, although just 17, had no redeeming qualities that I’ve seen

    CNN reported that Martin bragged about how many fights he was in. There is video of Martin acting as a referee at “fight club” by his house. He carried around a photo in his cellphone, presumably a photo of himself holding a gun to try and show he was a thug badass. Martin posted numerous photos of himself shooting the bird. So yeah, definitely a thug wannabe and not an honor student.


    Not “every” kid gets expelled 3 times, participates in a “fight club” and brags about being a gangsta. It’s a safe bet that those who do fit that profile end up dead or in jail by the time they’re 21

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  78. AlexInCT

    For the love of Marx, Freud and Darwin, who the hell is arguing that Martin deserved to die based on his past indiscretions? Straw man much?

    Do you really have to ask? That’s what the left believes: those of us that are not stupid enough to think guns are icky and should be banned and that racism can only go one way wanted this kid dead. They can’t really argue the thing that bothers us – that the left turned this tragedy into a farce for ideological reasons and in the pursuit of political gain – because then it would leave them with shit on their face.

    Why do you liberals utterly ignore these facts while continuously bitching and bellyaching about irrelevancies and attacking straw men?

    The agenda! Facts will be redone, logic will go out the window, strawmen will be erected and knocked down, all to suit the agenda and narrative. Hence the bullshit and the accusation that if you do not think Zimmerman should have stood trial, let alone gone to jail, and guns should be confiscated, you are a racist.

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  79. Mook

    Just from this thread:

    Then you proceeded to quote me as follows

    Martin was expelled 3 times and had been caught with stolen items..It’s exteme to be expelled once, but he managed to get himself expelled 3 times. Trayvon had an extensive trail of thug wannabe violent tendencies on twitter and he was filled racial hatred ala “creepy ass crackas”. Trayvon glorified the thug life in his social media posts. Those like Hal who try to equate the outlandish charges against Zimmerman with the thug wannabe posts by Trayvon are dishonest to the core.. Unlike Trayvon, Zimmermann is by all accounts a stand up guy in his community. Trayvon, although just 17, had no redeeming qualities that I’ve seen

    CNN reported that Martin bragged about how many fights he was in. There is video of Martin acting as a referee at “fight club” by his house. He carried around a photo in his cellphone, presumably a photo of himself holding a gun to try and show he was a thug badass. Martin posted numerous photos of himself shooting the bird. So yeah, definitely a thug wannabe and not an honor student.

    Not “every” kid gets expelled 3 times, participates in a “fight club” and brags about being a gangsta. It’s a safe bet that those who do fit that profile end up dead or in jail by the time they’re 21

    And then you “interpreted” what I wrote to equal Martin “deserved to die”. This is the 2nd time today that you’ve made huge dishonest leaps to change the meaning of words written in plain English. You can’t argue on the merits, so you claim that one thing means another. You’ve crossed a line to now intentionally acting like a asshole. My bad for engaging you.

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  80. Section8

    Nevertheless, as I said, I think it’s very likely that ZImmerman made a race-based decision which kicked this whole thing off. He saw Martin as a criminal. He was so convinced he decided to take matters into his own hands.

    Based on what? I’ve asked this for the 4th time now, I don’t expect a response other than well because he thought he was suspicious, and if the guy was white he probably wouldn’t. No facts to support his, no nothing. Just well he’s racist because I say so.

    You are suffering from cultured white boy grandstanding syndrome. You believe that insisting it’s all raced based will make you a notch above everyone else. The mere accusation itself “proves” you’re not a racist, are cultured, and important to the world and anyone that questions it obviously must be racist, or ignorant, or a step down in importance unlike you. It’s lame, and old. I was expecting some numbers. He never has believed someone white was up to no good in his entire life? Do you know that? How about any other black people he saw are you sure he always called in after all they were probably walking? Why didn’t he go after them? After all they are black, and going after them is what he does apparently according to you. No you have nothing but cherry picked incidents strung together and warped for your own narrative.

    Oh, and you are late to the party. As been mentioned here by many the cultured white boys in the media have been trying their best to make this racist. Doctored phone calls, hearing the word “coon” on the call that never happened, saying he lied about his broken nose, or injury to his head. All major outlets reporting this for days before just finally letting the lie fade away so they could go onto the next one. I think every one of them should be ordered to put a disclaimer on the screen that their reporting is for entertainment purposes only regarding this case. It’s been lie after lie. A few mistakes in the initial stages of a breaking story is one thing, and even that should be minimal for “professional” news networks, but over and over again is nothing but disgusting and a disservice to all sides involved. It takes away from the credibility of real racial problems. Instead what we ended up with is a tragic and unfortunate situation turning into a circus. Are you proud of this?

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  81. Mook

    Nevertheless, as I said, I think it’s very likely that ZImmerman made a race-based decision which kicked this whole thing off.

    On what basis do you believe that it’s “likely” Zimmerman made a race-based decision other than unsubstantiated speculative fantasy?

    Where exactly are you getting this “expelled” stuff from Mook?

    “Suspended” would have been the correct word, not expelled. My point still stands however, as it’s a small percentage of kids who get suspended 3 times.

    It does make a difference in terms of what he was up to and whether it was reasonable for ZImmerman to be suspicious

    No it doesn’t. He could have been carrying a bible or a teddy bear and it wouldn’t have made one iota of difference as to the “reasonableness” of Zimmerman’s suspicion. Zimmerman became suspicious when, according to what he told the dispatcher, when he saw Martin acting erratically, as if “on drugs” in Z’s words, darting between houses instead of walking on the sidewalk like most normal people would do.

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  82. Poosh

    You are suffering from cultured white boy grandstanding syndrome. You believe that insisting it’s all raced based will make you a notch above everyone else.

    He wouldn’t be a liberal if that wasn’t his hidden motivation now, would it :p

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  83. Seattle Outcast

    Instigation should count against the instigator.

    So, if I pop you one (invent reason), and you try to kill me, I’m not allowed to defend myself? That’s bullshit.

    Also, nobody proved that GZ “instigated” the assault, and getting out of your car to see where someone is going isn’t “instigating” a thing.

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  84. Seattle Outcast

    btw – did you know the pejorative cracker is an abbreviation of whip cracker – as in slave owner. Not exactly the equal to nigger.

    Actually, it’s not. It’s a derivation of the word “craik”, which means “to talk” in the native language of all the Scots that lived in the south. The southern blacks referred to them as “craik”-ers and actually looked down upon these extremely poor white people as being beneath them socially. Surely, you’ve heard of “white trash”…?

    “Cracker” = “Nigger” in terms of racist derogatory terminology

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  85. salinger

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  86. Hal_10000

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  87. CM

    Hal is totally correct though MY.
    Section8 I strongly disagree with your characterisation of your comments. And no I don’t think anyone should be proud.

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  88. InsipiD

    btw – did you know the pejorative cracker is an abbreviation of whip cracker – as in slave owner. Not exactly the equal to nigger.

    Actually, it’s not. It’s a derivation of the word “craik”, which means “to talk” in the native language of all the Scots that lived in the south. The southern blacks referred to them as “craik”-ers and actually looked down upon these extremely poor white people as being beneath them socially. Surely, you’ve heard of “white trash”…?

    I say with utmost confidence that Trayvon Martin didn’t know either of those descriptions, but was using the most insulting term that he could think of at the time.

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  89. Hal_10000

    I’ve been out all day, but a response to Rich’s point

    Gee, you think that might have something to do with the high bar they set for even filing criminal cases? District Attorney offices are plagued with the same budget constraints as any other public agency. They only file slam dunks because they only have the funds to try a finite amount of cases. DA’s are evaluated on their conviction rate (not so with public defenders). Most DA’s are brand new attorney’s ( the smart seasoned ones go into private practice) and many times they have to go up against heavy hitters, private lawyers who specialize in this type of law. Do you have any idea how many cases they don’t file at all, cases where it is not clear cut but would require some lawyering and they just don’t have the manpower? I know (knew in the past) hundreds of DA’s and PD’s, these are not the cream of the crop and many police agencies have an animus for the DA’s office specifically because they are so damned finicky (lazy) wrt the cases they will file.

    Yes, those poor DA offices. They are so poor compared to, say, public defender offices, which have far less money, far fewer attorneys and far less experienced attorneys. They have also have state immunity from bad prosecutions, including prosecutions where exculpatory evidence has been deliberately witheld. They also have more resources now than they had twenty years ago when the crime rate was twice as high.

    Prosecutor is a premiere job, especially at the federal level. One of the reasons I moved away from supporting the death penalty was because, in Texas, we had death penalty cases assigned to public defenders who were fresh out of law school or had never done a death penalty case or were in way over their heads. We even had one who fell asleep during the trial. Had Zimmerman had a public defender — instead of the great lawyer he had — he would have been found guilty or pled out.

    No, but they are isolated cases used to incite the rabble to light their torches and sharpen their pitchforks. The criminal justice system is constantly being tweaked by the judiciary, it needs to get better, but I’m not willing to throw it out just yet.

    Neither am I. But these are not isolated cases. Balko has documented hundreds of them. He uncovered a scandal in Mississippi where the state medical examiner was unlicensed, was doing several times the recommended number of autopsies and became infamous for telling prosecutors what they wanted to hear. When the state finally got rid of him (after twenty years, thousands of convictions and numerous exonerations of people he put on death row), the state DA’s fought tooth and nail to try to get him back.

    Apocryphal? Are you kidding me? That is the very essence of the plea bargain, factor in no more prison space and DA’s offices that can’t reasonably try the cases they already have, bad guys walk all the time, too bad Radley Balko doesn’t write about that.

    There are hundreds of thousands of people in this country on sex offender registries. These registries carry restrictions on activity that can literally leave people homeless. People have been attacked, assaulted and murdered for being on them. And a study in Georgia concluded that 70% of them could be taken off with no danger to the public. Add into that mandatory minimum sentences. Add into that prosecutors being judged by conviction and sentencing stats.

    As for “no more prison space”, you might look to your own state where the prisons are running well over capacity and they are still packing them in against a court order. We have over two million people in prison in this country, an incarceration rate that dwarfs anything in the world. Several hundred thousand of those are in their for non-violent offenses. Police are so overworked they have time for elaborate prostitution stings. Federal agents are so overworked they had time to spitball a case against Barry Bonds because he was hitting too many home runs. And once someone is in the system, it can be almost impossible to get out.

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  90. Seattle Outcast

    Salinger,

    You went with Wikipedia for your citation? Do you just want to give up now?

    This whole “whip cracker” bullshit didn’t even exist on the internet 90 days ago, so I guess the PC crowd has been busy.

    I read about the origin of the “cracker” about a decade ago when I was interested in speech patterns and accents across the US and the origin of various slang terms. It’s amazing where you’ll end up after reading a “pop vs soda” article….

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  91. salinger

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  92. Seattle Outcast

    Yeah defend away – but suffer the consequences if you kill the person with whom you instigated the altercation. Manslaughter.

    You don’t even understand the basic concepts of how our law is based – intent is a crucial factor, even for manslaughter. There are plenty of online sites that teach this if you want to get a primer.

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  93. salinger

    You don’t even understand the basic concepts of how our law is based – intent is a crucial factor, even for manslaughter. There are plenty of online sites that teach this if you want to get a primer.

    And I maintain instigation is a form of intent. Just because the outcome is not what you hoped for doesn’t mean your primary actions should carry no consequences – it’s pretty cowardly to expect otherwise.

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  94. Iconoclast

    Nor did I say it was relevant to the verdict.

    Nor did I say that you said it was. I mean, we can play this disingenuity game all day.

    I’m speculating about what seems to have happened from the start of the incident until the death…

    To what end? Why concern yourself over it? What are you trying to prove?

    I never said it was.

    And I never said you said it was.

    Which ones?

    Calling Zimmerman a “creepy-ass cracker”. Confronting Zimmerman rather than fleeing. Pounding Zimmerman’s head into the ground, repeatedly.

    For at least the vast majority of the incident it seems that he was the one worried about what was happening.

    Well, again, what “seems” to you during “the vast majority of the incident” is irrelevant, unless you can substantiate your claims. That Zimmerman didn’t “seem” worried to you could be nothing more than your own personal biases. Hell, the sum total of Zimmerman’s actions could arguably have been driven by worry at some level.

    But all Zimmerman has to do is to get the jury to believe he feared for his life in the seconds before he pulled the gun and used it.

    Oh, is that all? Wow, you make it seem so trivial and easy.

    Try to remember the actual testimony, if you can manage. There was an eyewitness account of Martin slamming Zimmerman’s head into the pavement. There was a prosecution witness who claimed that Martin referred to Zimmerman as a “creepy-ass cracker”. There was expert testimony stating that Zimmerman was absolutely no street fighter, but rather a bit of a wimp. Forensic evidence supports Zimmerman’s accounting of the events. Martin could have fled but chose not to. And so on.

    Nevertheless, as I said, I think it’s very likely that ZImmerman made a race-based decision which kicked this whole thing off.

    Assuming, for the sake of argument, that the decision was race-based, So Fucking What?

    He saw Martin as a criminal. He was so convinced he decided to take matters into his own hands.

    So Fucking What?

    You again ignore facts, such as the fact that there was a rash of burglaries in that neighborhood in the previous months, most of which were committed by black youths. Like it or fucking lump it, the odd were in favor of Martin being just one more. And again, Zimmerman was a Neighborhood Watch captain, so what you so flippantly call “tak[ing] matters into his own hands” was arguably his duty as a member of Neighborhood Watch.

    Which facts did I ignore?

    All of the ones I mentioned in this post, for starters.

    Where did I suggest that Martin was a “poor innocent black child victim”?

    “Here we go again.” (CM, July 15, 2013 5:18 PM) You must enjoy being obtuse.

    If you believe Martin was a “thug wannabe” who decided to finally put it into action (while carrying Skittles candy and cans of iced tea), then how are you any different from those who believe the narrative that ZImmerman was looking for an opportunity to deal with a “fucking punk” and Martin’s death was the foreseeable result.

    CM, July 15, 2013 12:13 AM

    AFAIA Zimmerman’s team could produce nothing to indicate anything particularly suspicious about Martin’s actions that night.

    Ibid

    …Martin having walked unarmed back from the store with candy and soda, doing nothing illegal…

    CM, July 15, 2013 6:02 AM

    Since you apparently cannot connect dots on your own, in the above quotes you keep emphasizing that Martin was carrying candy and tea, was doing nothing wrong, and was doing nothing suspicious. By doing so repeatedly, that is how you are “suggesting that Martin was a ‘poor innocent black child victim'”. Not that you will see it that way, of course…

    And of course, this ignores the fact that there was an eyewitness who saw Martin pounding Zimmerman’s head into the pavement, and the fact that Martin could have fled, but didn’t.

    If you’re suggesting he wasn’t innocent walking back from the store, then aren’t you making an irrelevant assessment just as you accused me of doing?

    What you seem utterly hell-bent on not getting is that it doesn’t matter if he was “innocent walking back from the store”, because he was guilty of pounding Zimmerman’s head into the pavement. Why you are so unwilling to grasp that is beyond me.

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  95. Xetrov

    He had injuries but they were not the kind of severe injuries you see when someone has had his head slammed against a sidewalk repeatedly for several minutes.

    I’m pretty sure nobody would survive having their head repeatedly bashed against a sidewalk for “several minutes”. Is there a certain amount of head bashings that you would consider acceptable for Zimmerman to defend his life? 2? 5? 10? Only after “several minutes” is it acceptable to defend your life? The prosecutions witness said the confrontation that he witnessed lasted a matter of seconds. Were his injuries consistent with being smashed against a sidewalk a few times?

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  96. Hal_10000

    Annnd… once again Hal tries to make “his own” judgement call on the Rule of Law.

    What rule of law? I’m talking about facts and the conflicting facts about what happened that night. Yes, I know you don’t like facts that contradict your point of view, MY.

    The fight took place over at least a minute. Travon’s phone goes dead at 7:16. At 17:16:11, the first 911 call happens. At 7:16:55 the gunshot occurs.

    If the events happened as Zimmerman described them, then he was justified. But the only direct witness to that is Zimmerman. Other witnesses were at a distance and had conflicting claims. Good claimed Martin was on top; but Mora claimed Zimmerman was on top (and neither was close to the scene). And Good — the witnes who said Martin was on top — specifically said that his head was not being hit against the concrete.

    My point is not that Zimmerman had to wait until he was further bloodied. My point is that his injuries are consistent with multiple versions of the story.

    For fuck’s sake, people, we talk about this ALL THE TIME: an acquittal does not mean you ar iinnocent, nor does it mean you have “proven” self-defense (since the burden is on the state to prove there wasn’t self-defense). It means the prosecution has failed to prove their case.

    You are once again selecting the facts you want to believe and ignoring anything that contradicts it because of your need to believe that Trayvon was a punk. I swear, if video tape came out tomorrow that showed Zimmerman starting the fight, you guys would still insist that he was in the right.

    Maybe Trayvon was a punk. Maybe he started the fight. But given the evidence that was presented at trial, it impossible to know — just as it is impossible to know if Zimmerman started the confrontation. The evidence presented is not even remotely conclusive on either point. All we know is that there was a fight that ended up with Trayvon dead.

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  97. Iconoclast

    Just to point out something: this is Zimmerman’s version of events, not fact.

    FFS, Hal, miss the point much? Forensic evidence supports “Zimmerman’s version of events”. That is a fact.

    The forensic pathologist testifying for the defense cited the trajectory of the bullet that pierced Martin’s chest and gun powder on his body in supporting Zimmerman’s version of events of the shooting, in a setback to the prosecution.

    “It’s consistent with somebody leaning over the person doing the shooting,” said Dr. Vincent DiMaio, a former chief medical examiner in Texas, in testimony in a case that inspired renewed national debate on race, profiling, gun rights and self defense.

    It’s also a fact that Martin could have fled the scene, but didn’t. It’s also a fact that there was testimony stating that Zimmerman was far from being any kind of street-fighter, so odds are that the “witness” who claimed Zimmerman was on top was simply flat-out wrong.

    But again, all of this qualification-baiting simply misses the point. I am beginning to see why some refer to you as a closet liberal.

    The point I was trying to make, and which apparently sailed right over your head, was that people who were “arguing that Martin deserved to die” were not doing so “based on his past indiscretions”, but rather on what he was doing in the moments before his death, namely, by all appearances, trying to kill another human being with his bare hands.

    THAT is the point I was trying to make. I am not at all surprised that salinger didn’t get it, but I am frankly surprised that you didn’t. I’ll make it a point to be less surprised in the future.

    I don’t know exactly what happened that night and neither do you.

    Again, you seem hell-bent on missing the point. I wasn’t trying to claim that I “knew” what took place that evening; that you would spin it that way is revealing. I was simply trying to relay actual testimony — that I didn’t do so to your personal satisfaction is ultimately irrelevant, as some choose to be willingly obtuse.

    So quit with the speculative bullshit based on tweets and marijuana residue and why someone eats skittles.

    See what I mean? Again, I was going by testimony, not “tweets”.

    It’s ridiculous.

    Your flagrant misrepresentation? Agreed.

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  98. salinger

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  99. Hal_10000

    The forensic pathologist testifying for the defense cited the trajectory of the bullet that pierced Martin’s chest and gun powder on his body in supporting Zimmerman’s version of events of the shooting, in a setback to the prosecution.

    Yes, because forensic evidence is always right? Bullet trajectories are notoriously suspect. In Mississippi, one forensic guy insisted he could tell from the trajectory that two people were holding the gun. Did you watch the OJ trial, where a forensic experts contradicted each other on the testimony? The evidence that the bullet was fired from beneath Trayvon is a point in Zimmerman’s favor. It’s not conclusive.

    At this point, the weight of evidence leans in Zimmerman’s favor. But there are enormous gaps in the evidence, specifically a lack of information about what happened between when Zimmerman exited his car and when the fight was underway. And into that gap, people are shoveling anything they want.

    Just to give you a sign of where I am on this: I’ve been arguing with people on other blogs who insist that Zimmerman initiated contact, who insist that he started the fight and, when Trayvon was either — depending on their bias — helpless underneath him or getting the better of him — Martin shot him. I’ve spent half my time on this pointing out to them that they have no idea what happened in those critical few minutes and that the four minutes between when Zimmerman lost Martin and when the shot occurred is really damning to the idea that Trayvon didn’t do anything.

    This has been my status for some time. On this blog, I’m called a closet liberal. On other blogs, I’m called a closet Hannity conservative.

    ee what I mean? Again, I was going by testimony, not “tweets”.

    I’m referring to people taking Trayvon’s past and trying to prove he’s a gangster based on it. As you say, irrelevant.

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  100. AlexInCT

    Then they never should have been brought up – correct?

    Are you joking? Once the people the prosecution brought up started lying their asses off to create the image that Zimmerman was an evil racist hell bent on killing an innocent black kid, all bets were off. What should never have happened is Zimmerman ending up in court for killing some jackass that was trying to kill him, period. As was stated, Martin could have run off and we wuld never have heard about either of these people. Martin didn’t run off. In fact, it is pretty obvious to everyone, including to the race baiters and gun grabbers who are pretending otherwise, that Martin is the one that instigated the fight. Zimmerman was walking back to his car. Martin was on top kicking his ass. He refered to Zimmerman as a cracker and told that ugly dumb cow that lied her ass off on the stand he was gonna teach the cracker a lesson. There is also a reason the media pretended Zimmerman was a white and Martin an innocent little kid. Anyone ignoring al these fucking travesties to pretend they have any real logic to pretend Zimmerman commited a crime is a fucking idiot and deserving of scorn.

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  101. richtaylor365 *

    Yes, those poor DA offices. They are so poor compared to, say, public defender offices, which have far less money, far fewer attorneys and far less experienced attorneys.

    OK, I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you know what you are talking about instead of just pulling shit out of your, well, hat, but in all the counties that I have worked in California I can anecdotally claim bullshit on all of that.

    They have also have state immunity from bad prosecutions, including prosecutions where exculpatory evidence has been deliberately witheld.

    And PD’s have the exact same immunity for when they fall asleep in court, do not prepare adequately or screw up in some other manner, all public employees have the same immunity, so your complaining is meaningless.

    Had Zimmerman had a public defender — instead of the great lawyer he had — he would have been found guilty or pled out.

    And if Zimmerman’s or Martin’s skin was a different color, he would not have had to go to trial at all, so what.

    Neither am I. But these are not isolated cases. Balko has documented hundreds of them. He uncovered a scandal in Mississippi where the state medical examiner was unlicensed, was doing several times the recommended number of autopsies and became infamous for telling prosecutors what they wanted to hear. When the state finally got rid of him (after twenty years, thousands of convictions and numerous exonerations of people he put on death row), the state DA’s fought tooth and nail to try to get him back.

    And as with all public employees paid on our dime, when bad ones surface we need to get rid of them, pronto, all public employees should be constantly scrutinized and evaluated, but guys like Balko make a living stirring one side of the pot. For every one of these “not isolated cases” he makes a living on, there are dozens more where from either DA screw ups, records screw ups, technicalities, or just not enough DA’s able to try all the cases they have, really bad dudes walk, exponentially way more then what you are complaining about here. And 99% of this goes un noticed or un reported.

    As for “no more prison space”, you might look to your own state where the prisons are running well over capacity and they are still packing them in against a court order.

    They (convicted criminals) are being released from the prison system because there is no room. And don’t interpret the lack of prison space with some specious argument that California is imprisoning more people then ought to be imprisoned. The prison system has it’s own problems, mostly tied to crazy demands by the prison guard union, but there is a greater chance of a dangerous felon going free or serving no prison time, then being incarcerated.

    . Police are so overworked they have time for elaborate prostitution stings. Federal agents are so overworked they had time to spitball a case against Barry Bonds because he was hitting too many home runs. And once someone is in the system, it can be almost impossible to get out.

    Yeah, that’s it, but don’t forget that they spend all their time eating donuts, those lazy bastards, I expected better from you.

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  102. Iconoclast
    The point I was trying to make, and which apparently sailed right over your head, was that people who were “arguing that Martin deserved to die” were not doing so “based on his past indiscretions”

    Then they never should have been brought up – correct?

    Categorically incorrect:

    The past indiscretions are brought up to counter the insipid liberal narrative that M was just an innocent little school boy going to the store to buy milk and cookies, when mean old white guy Z “took the law into his own hands” by “aggressively” stalking M and ultimately killing him because Z hated coons, or whatnot.

    Iconoclast, July 15, 2013 5:33 PM

    It would be just peachy if people could simply read and comprehend…

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  103. Iconoclast

    Yes, because forensic evidence is always right?

    Actually, it’s never “right”. It’s also never “wrong”. Evidence of any kind Just Is — inferences drawn from that evidence may be right or wrong, but the evidence itself simply exists independent of said inferences.

    Bullet trajectories are notoriously suspect. In Mississippi, one forensic guy insisted he could tell from the trajectory that two people were holding the gun.

    The one simply does not follow from the other. Just because some bonehead decides to draw an unwarranted hypothesis from a set of trajectory data, that cannot indict the data itself in any way. It only speaks to the level of skill possessed by the bonehead.

    Did you watch the OJ trial, where a forensic experts contradicted each other on the testimony?

    Were they using two separate sets of forensic evidence, or were they drawing contradictory inferences from a common set?

    Bullet trajectories are notoriously suspect.

    So is eyewitness testimony. So is expert testimony. Hell, anything and everything is “notoriously suspect” if you want it to be, including one’s own senses.

    The evidence that the bullet was fired from beneath Trayvon is a point in Zimmerman’s favor. It’s not conclusive.

    I never claimed it was “conclusive”. I only claimed that it was a fact that it supported Zimmerman’s story. “Support” is not “proof”, and you have yet to refute the claim..

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  104. AlexInCT

    I feel sorry for you.

    You should feel sorry for her, not me. Now she is doing the rounds and playing yet another tune: Zimmerman was a “cracka” ass-cracker, so Trayvon better run or fight. Who knows? Maybe Trayvon wanted some ass cracking and when Zimmerman chose not to do that, he beat him up?

    Remember this was the star witness for the prosecution.

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  105. Seattle Outcast

    Thanks for the citation SO. Seems legit, although I would still not correlate this version of progeny as specifically racially charged.

    That’s like saying because the root of the word “nigger” is merely a corruption of a word that means “black” there is isn’t any reason to say it is a racist slur. I pretty much bet you can’t find a single instance of the word “cracker”, or any derivative thereof, being used to describe a white person that isn’t racially charged.

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  106. salinger

    I pretty much bet you can’t find a single instance of the word “cracker”, or any derivative thereof, being used to describe a white person that isn’t racially charged.

    from your link:

    In a letter written to the Earl of Dartmouth in 1766, an observer named Gavin Cochrane, referring to bands of outlaws operating at that time in the Southern U.S., noted: “I should explain to your Lordship what is meant by crackers; a name they have got from being great boasters; they are a lawless set of rascalls on the frontiers of Virginia, Maryland, the Carolinas and Georgia, who often change their places of abode.”

    What have I won?

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  107. Mook

    You should feel sorry for her, not me

    It wouldn’t take much effort to find Salinger posts on this site disparaging fat people for eating fast food and sitting on their asses. But now that he’s in white boy grandstanding mode, he’s gone full hypocrite, pretending that to dare say such things about another overweight fellow human is *gasp* beyond the pale.

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  108. Seattle Outcast

    What have I won?

    A swift kick in the nuts for not even trying to find a modern usage of the word that fit the bill.

    I don’t remember you being such a pissy little girl before…

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  109. richtaylor365 *

    You should feel sorry for her, not me.

    Don’t feel too sorry for her, she just got a full ride scholarship to college.

    Of course, even the benefactor realizes that she is not the sharpest knife in the drawer;

    I will help you get tutors to get you out of high school, tutors to help you pass the SAT and I will give you a full ride scholarship to any HBCU you’d like.”

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  110. salinger

    A swift kick in the nuts for not even trying to find a modern usage of the word that fit the bill.

    Ah the old moving goalpost scenario – you merely bet that I couldn’t find a single instance.

    Here’s an intersting piece NPR did (which backs up your earlier derivation post).

    By the early 1800s, those immigrants to the South started to refer to themselves that way (as crackers my clarification) as a badge of honor and a term of endearment. (I’m pretty sure this process of reappropriating a disparaging term sounds familiar to a lot of y’all.)

    also in the article a quote from this year:

    “Jimmy Carter is a cracker,” Ste. Claire said. “He’s an Oglethorpe, from Celtic-English cracker stock. I don’t know if he knows, but I think Jimmy Carter would proudly call himself one. “

    I don’t remember you being such a pissy little girl before

    And I didn’t peg you for a misogynist.

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  111. richtaylor365 *

    You knew Uncle Ted would have a few choice words on the matter.

    I think he is right about race relations being so bad right now, I thought electing The One, the post racial president, would improve race relations.

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  112. CM

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  113. Xetrov

    Why are you so angry about a nobody’s random posts on the internet about an event that neither of us have any connection to? That’s something I can’t grasp.

    Cause you’re a fucking punk. And I ain’t going to let you get away with it, you Creep-Ass Cracker.

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  114. Seattle Outcast

    And I didn’t peg you for a misogynist.

    Doubling down on stupid is no way to go through life.

    “Jimmy Carter is a cracker,” Ste. Claire said. “He’s an Oglethorpe, from Celtic-English cracker stock. I don’t know if he knows, but I think Jimmy Carter would proudly call himself one

    Why did you stop there? Did the rest of the article not suit you?

    Ste. Claire said that by the 1940s, the term began to take on yet another meaning in American inner cities in particular: as an epithet for bigoted white folks.

    And now it just a term for issuing a racist insult against whites.

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  115. salinger

    Why did you stop there?

    Because all you asked for was a single use of the term that was not racist. Then you asked for one more recent – and now you’re switching the rules again? Well okay, you got me, you’re the better man, I should have known better than try to match wits with the world’s greatest line inspector.

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  116. Iconoclast

    For the purposes of discussion.

    And why should we discuss your speculations?

    Nothing.

    You want us to “discuss” your speculations yet you have “nothing” to prove. I think you’re just kidding yourself.

    He was certainly worried, we know that. Worried that another fucking punk would get away with it. He said so. That was his motivation for the actions that led to Martin’s death.

    The problem is that you’re putting it all on Zimmerman, pretending that Martin was an innocent victim who had zero options in the matter. Like I said, Martin could have fled, he could have gone “home”, but didn’t.

    That’s Zimmerman’s story.

    So it must be false? Your problem is that the available evidence supports “Zimmerman’s story”, or at the very least, it’s consistent with the story.

    He was killed not far from what his final destination would have been.

    Indeed, and he had the opportunity to reach that destination, but chose not to take advantage of that opportunity.

    Essentially the guy that gets to say “I was defending myself” wins because of a lack of witnesses.

    Because of a lack of contrary evidence, eye-witnesses being only a part of that. Forensic and medical evidence again supports “Zimmerman’s story”, or at the very least, it’s consistent with the story. Martin’s knuckles indicated that he landed several blows upon Zimmerman, Zimmerman had absolutely no such evidence on his knuckles, indicating that the altercation was rather one-way in nature, with Martin throwing the punches and Zimmerman receiving them, while lying on the ground, under Martin.

    Of course it’s still all Zimmerman’s fault because he “instigated” the whole thing — standard liberal narrative.

    Right, and yet “what Zimmerman said happened” is apparently sufficient to substantiate claims in his favour.

    Unless there was evidence to the contrary, which there wasn’t. Like it or lump it. Prosecution had every chance to make their case, but their own witnesses undermined that case with their testimony.

    He’s given every single benefit of the doubt, even though he instigated the whole thing and doesn’t regret his actions.

    Again, standard boilerplate liberal narrative. In truth, it was the prosecution that was given benefit, as the Judge ruled against the defense a number of times. That being said, the law of the land pretty much states that the defendant must be given the benefit of the doubt, hence “presumed innocent until proven guilty, beyond reasonable doubt”. Again, that’s the law, and it doesn’t matter a whit if some random liberal kiwi finds it objectionable. In truth, it appears that many liberals find it objectionable, and would prefer mob rule instead of the rule of law. I wonder if you are in that category…

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  117. Iconoclast

    No, his duty was to report it and let the police check it out. Which is what he was told at a previous meeting, and also reminded of on the phone before he ignored it.

    Here is a timeline analysis that indicates Martin could have made it to his destination, but chose to confront Zimmerman instead. It also indicates that Zimmerman did not ignore the advice as you claim.

    Here is another commentary on the previous link, where it is stated that Martin walked past Zimmerman, and was therefore closer to his destination than Zimmerman was; Zimmerman was not between Martin and his destination at that point.

    This analysis and commentary may or may not be valid or accurate, but it should at the very least cast some serious doubt on the liberal narrative you keep reciting.

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  118. Iconoclast

    You’re not connecting dots, you’re misrepresenting what I’ve said.

    This is how I characterized what you said:

    …you keep emphasizing that Martin was carrying candy and tea, was doing nothing wrong, and was doing nothing suspicious…

    Iconoclast, July 16, 2013 9:35 AM/

    Explain how it’s a “misrepresentation”, if you think you can.

    Deal with what is actually written, don’t reword it to suit your position.

    Again, here is what I quote you as saying:

    If you believe Martin was a “thug wannabe” who decided to finally put it into action (while carrying Skittles candy and cans of iced tea), then how are you any different from those who believe the narrative that ZImmerman was looking for an opportunity to deal with a “fucking punk” and Martin’s death was the foreseeable result.

    CM, July 15, 2013 12:13 AM

    AFAIA Zimmerman’s team could produce nothing to indicate anything particularly suspicious about Martin’s actions that night.

    Ibid

    …Martin having walked unarmed back from the store with candy and soda, doing nothing illegal…

    CM, July 15, 2013 6:02 AM

    And my characterization:

    …you keep emphasizing that Martin was carrying candy and tea, was doing nothing wrong, and was doing nothing suspicious…

    Iconoclast, July 16, 2013 9:35 AM/

    Explain how I “reworded it to suit my position”, if you think you can. Let’s see just how trivial and petty you choose to be.

    But why should he have fled anyway, I thought people had the right to stand and defend themselves from people coming after them?

    Now you’re moving the goal posts. If he was the “innocent child victim” that the liberal narrative claims he was, then he simply would have gone “home” when he had the chance. Stand Your Ground has nothing to do with it, and is a complete non sequitur.

    Perhaps you could unwad your panties and try to calm down a little and be slightly less aggressive. Why are you so angry about a nobody’s random posts on the internet about an event that neither of us have any connection to?

    You’re kidding, right? If not, then I think you’re simply mistaking incredulity for “anger”, which your prerogative, I suppose.

    That’s something I can’t grasp.

    Such irony. I have seen you display anger often enough, perhaps you should tend to your own anger management issues before worrying about those you imagine others may have…

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  119. AlexInCT

    Now you’re moving the goal posts. If he was the “innocent child victim” that the liberal narrative claims he was, then he simply would have gone “home” when he had the chance. Stand Your Ground has nothing to do with it, and is a complete non sequitur.

    According to the prosecution’s star witness Trayvon had no choice but to fight, because Zimmerman was a homo rapist. You can’t let the homo rapists run loose or it is gonna hurt your caboos. Or something like that…

    You can not make fun of the leftists that want to pretend an injustice was done here to Trayvon Martin, and that Zimmerman is bad, as badly as they are making fun of it all themselves, based on their own comments and arguments.

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  120. Hal_10000

    Here is a timeline analysis that indicates Martin could have made it to his destination, but chose to confront Zimmerman instead. It also indicates that Zimmerman did not ignore the advice as you claim.

    This was, in fact, one of the most convincing parts of his attorney’s closing argument. He went silent for four minutes indicating that was the time Trayvon had to get back home before the fight.

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  121. richtaylor365 *

    Hal, my comments on this post are not based on blogs that I read or from bloggers/columnists with axes to grind and a particular bias to promote, they are based on my own experiences with jury trials in my state, well over a hundred over the years, both felonies and misdemeanors. By the large, the playing field (experience and ability weighed wrt the DA and the PD) is level, first year DA’s going against first year PD’s. My many years working in the Beverly Hill Court (handling cases from West LA, West Hollywood, and Beverly Hills) was an eye opener because there the MO was high powered heavy hitters on the defense side against woefully undermanned under experienced DA’S. Their conviction rate was terrible.

    Regarding your link, I was glad to see the author destroy Matthew Yglesias and his ridiculous notions about Zimmerman and the type of representation he would get if he had a public defender. Re: his complaints about budget cuts, I have to assume that budget cuts are (or will) effect both sides of the judicial system since they get paid from the same pot. Holder has even admitted as much;

    “Few, if any, of the extraordinary actions we are taking now to avoid furloughs will be available again next year, and thus furloughs are a distinct possibility at the beginning of the next fiscal year if sequestration levels continue,”

    Factor in the protections the Constitution provides for each defendant (no such protections exist for the prosecution, if a public defender is not available to take your case right away, you get a continence, if a prosecutor is not available, the case gets dismissed).

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  122. Argive

    By the large, the playing field (experience and ability weighed wrt the DA and the PD) is level, first year DA’s going against first year PD’s. My many years working in the Beverly Hill Court (handling cases from West LA, West Hollywood, and Beverly Hills) was an eye opener because there the MO was high powered heavy hitters on the defense side against woefully undermanned under experienced DA’S. Their conviction rate was terrible.

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but my impression is that with the exception of a few neighborhoods those are somewhat affluent areas (especially Beverly Hills) where the residents can afford good representation. I appreciate that where you worked in LA, the PDs office was pretty good, but it’s just not like that in lots of poorer areas. HBO just released a really good documentary about PDs in poor areas of Georgia called Gideon’s Army. The PD Hal linked to reviewed it here. Some quotes:

    Judging by the reaction on Twitter, there seem to be a fair number of people who were rather surprised to learn of public defenders’ existence or of the problems faced by those who decide to represent the indefensible. But there’s also a fair number of people whose reactions seem to suggest that they weren’t even aware that there is an “underclass”, so to speak, of people who are poor and steamrolled by the State. Whose lives are in the balance on an uneven playing field. To all those people, I say welcome to the real world. Now, there’s more to know.

    Public defenders contribute – some voluntarily; most not – to the problems in the system. But our plight needs to be told in the context of the bigger picture. Discovery violations, harsh judges whose every whim and fancy can bring great differences in resolution between two identical cases. The crushing numbers of clients that necessitate cutting corners. At one point, we’re told that one of the public defenders has a caseload of 120. Is that a lot? Depends on whom you ask. Here, in CT, in the busiest courts, public defenders carry caseloads of 200-300.

    I live in Pennsylvania. You may have heard of our recent judicial scandal, in which two juvenile court judges conspired to send thousands of kids to several detention facilities in exchange for kickbacks. It is possibly the biggest judicial scandal in American history. Part of the reason as to why it went on for so long was because the local PDs office did not have adequate resources and the prosecutors didn’t lift a finger.

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  123. richtaylor365 *

    I have channel changed right through Gideon’s Army on HBO, not knowing what it was about. 90 percent of HBO documentaries are so blatantly slanted left, they are unwatchable (they had a documentary on Dick Cheney last month, I honestly think they thought they were giving him a far shake, ridiculously biased) but I will watch GA the next time it airs.

    I am not unsympathetic to anyone that gets a raw deal in the judicial system, wrong is wrong, and I applaud anyone that exposes injustice, in any form, but there are many bloggers that make a living peddling in just this type of exposure, the other side still gets lost in the shuffle. The revolving door court systems that are the result of lazy DA’s and shrinking budgets, where bad guys are not sufficiently prosecuted or incarcerated, this is also a form of injustice where the victims are we the people, who have a perfect right to be protected from career criminals.

    I had not heard about that scandal you linked to but I would hope that all those involved are now behind bars.

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  124. CM

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  125. CM

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  126. Hal_10000

    Rich, I’ll bow to your first-hand experience here. I also had a conversation today with a friend who is a private attorney but is occasionally tapped to do cases for people who can’t afford lawyers by both locals and feds. He does feel the system is canted heavily against the accused (although he acknowledges that most of them are guilty). Funnily enough, he said the biggest problem with criminal defense is the damned clients. Most of them get convicted easily because they (1) don’t think more than about ten second into the future; (2) they leave an orgy of evidence behind; (3) they talk to the police for a few hours before they call a lawyer.

    The system works reasonably well. But I think it has a flaw in that, on those occasions when the accuses is innocent, it doesn’t self-correct as easily. Almost every piece of evidence is seen in light of the accusation.

    As I said in my post above, I’m ready Balko’s book right now and his blame is squarely fixated on the politicians who he believes have created a system that overlooks and in many cases rewards bad behavior. It’s a testament to the people that it isn’t really bad because you see occasional cases where it really gets bad.

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  127. Iconoclast

    Why should mine be any different from anyone elses?

    Well, for one thing, your speculations are racially charged — you are accusing Zimmerman of making “race-based” decisions. Well, maybe, maybe not, but your speculations come across as judgmental, regardless of your apparent unwillingness to simply call Zimmerman a racist. And by emphasizing the allegedly “race-based” nature of his decisions, you really aren’t helping matters in any way. Race-baiting is simply terrible form, it’s what led to making this cut-and-dried case of self-defense into a national, nay worldwide media circus in the first place. The trial never should have happened, and we should never have heard of George Zimmerman or Trayvon Martin. The FBI investigated the case a year ago and found no evidence of underlying racial animosity. It was simply a case of bad judgement on both sides, with one party tragically losing his life. Unfortunately, the race-baiters were successful in pressuring the local authorities into bring a case against Zimmerman, and even though he was rightfully acquitted, the race-baiters are still not satisfied. You see, they have pronounced Zimmerman guilty of some kind of race-crime. There is a slogan out there, “The People Have Spoken, Zimmerman Is Guilty”. They have pronounced judgement, and are seeking retribution at some level. And people like you are basically supporting them, whether such is your intent or not.

    For at least the near-term, Zimmerman’s life is essentially ruined. He is now a primary target of unspeakable hate, and people like you, with your “innocent” speculations into his motives, are part of the problem.

    Maybe he is a racist who did get away with murder. Maybe. No system is perfect, ours certainly isn’t. But again, the FBI had investigated the case a year ago, and found no evidence of wrong-doing by Zimmerman, his alleged “profiling” of Martin notwithstanding. And he has to live with the fact that he killed a 17-year-old for the rest of his life. Hell, for all we know, he’ll spend the rest of his life second-guessing the decisions he made that night.

    I could easily spend time fisking the rest of your nonsense in detail, but that would only be giving you validation. Fuck that. If you wanna think you “won”, knock yourself out.

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  128. Iconoclast

    One final note — if Zimmerman were black, we never would have heard about this case in all likelihood. A black man killing another black man just isn’t considered newsworthy at the national level. Unfortunately, an Hispanic man isn’t “white” enough to foment outrage, so the “white Hispanic” had to be invented by the media. All of the racial overtones in this case were manufactured, and people like you ate it up like candy — Skittles, in this case…

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  129. AlexInCT

    One final note — if Zimmerman were black, we never would have heard about this case in all likelihood.

    Iconoclast, no need to use likelihood in that sentence. Many young black kids die every day, in places where the left runs the show and has all but banned guns for law abiding citizens, parctically always at the hands of other young black kids, and quite a few of these victims are innocent bystanders, but none of the currently “oh so concerned progs” gives a shit about any of that, unless they can use it to disarm law abiding citizens even more.

    We heard about this case because the left used it right before the election to energize a lackadaisical voter base that had lost its focus. It worked like a charm. Of course, they now can’t give up on the fire they started, and Zimmerman is paying for that. It’s a sad, sad state of affairs that the people that are first to accuse others of having racist motives tend to be the biggest race pimps ever. It saddens me to see what the new slave masters (the DNC) have done to blacks in this country.

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  130. CM

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  131. Iconoclast

    Right, it’s always best to continue to sweep it all under the carpet. Because that’s traditionally worked so well.

    There is nothing to “sweep under the carpet” in the first place.

    People make race-based decisions everyday. Why not acknowledge that it does happen, and that it’s possible/likely to have played a part in Zimmerman’s decision-making on that day?

    Because the FBI already investigated the case a year ago and found no evidence of “race-based” anything, that’s why. According to the FBI, Zimmerman’s descisions were based on attire, not skin color. Unfortunately, that doesn’t give the race-baiters anything to wotk with, so they focused on Martin’s skin color. But Zimmerman didn’t, according to the FBI.

    Actually when I raised it my point was that I don’t think race played a part in the jury’s decision. I was speculating about where I think race probably did play a part, because it hadn’t been mentioned.

    Because, in reality, there was nothing worth mentioning on that score at all. Your “speculations” are nothing but race-baiting.

    I agree. But not everything is ‘race-baiting’, even if you see it that way.

    It is race-baiting when race played absolutely no part (according to the actual evidence) but you insist on “discussing” it anyway.

    I wouldn’t agree that this was a “cut-and-dried” case of self-defense at all

    Your agreement is not required. It was a cut-and-dried case whether you agree or not. At least it was according to the fucking FBI.

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  132. Iconoclast

    Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight, I guess the US is post-racial after all then. Congrats, that’s great to hear.

    For the love of Marx, you can be such a fucking twit sometimes. I’m not claiming we’re “post-racial” at all, even though we did just re-elect a black President. Fuck all…

    What I am claiming is that there is absolutely no evidence that race played any part in this particular case. The fact that race was still brought up in spite of that pretty much proves that we aren’t “post-racial” by any stretch of the imagination. Fabricated racial conflict is what keeps the careers of people like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton alive.

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  133. CM

    Wow, what dragged this up again?

    Because the FBI already investigated the case a year ago and found no evidence of “race-based” anything, that’s why. According to the FBI, Zimmerman’s descisions were based on attire, not skin color. Unfortunately, that doesn’t give the race-baiters anything to wotk with, so they focused on Martin’s skin color. But Zimmerman didn’t, according to the FBI.

    According to the evidence, which mostly came from Zimmerman, and certanly ALL came from Zimmerman in terms of motivation. We’ll never know, neither will the FBI.

    Because, in reality, there was nothing worth mentioning on that score at all. Your “speculations” are nothing but race-baiting.

    You can accuse me of ‘race-baiting’ (there’s a first time for everything, I’ve certainly never been accused that before), and I can disagree. I’ve said nothing unreasonable, or that would ‘bait’ a black person into doing or thing anything. I’m not a position of responsibility where my words carry any weight or alter anything.

    It is race-baiting when race played absolutely no part (according to the actual evidence) but you insist on “discussing” it anyway.

    Same answer as above. You can insist on mentioning race as ‘race-baiting’ until the cows come home if you like.

    Your agreement is not required. It was a cut-and-dried case whether you agree or not. At least it was according to the fucking FBI.

    Oh I see, the FBI are the owners of the truth now. There is no room for discussion outside what they have determined. Awesome.

    For the love of Marx, you can be such a fucking twit sometimes.

    So can you with your whole ‘race-baiting’ bullshit.

    What I am claiming is that there is absolutely no evidence that race played any part in this particular case.

    And that doesn’t contradict what I said at all. The evidence on motivation comes entirely from Zimmerman, who is hardly going to say it was about race, even it played only a very small part. That black kids had been doing break-ins, and that Zimmerman was getting pissed off about it is on the record. None of us, including the FBI, can tell whether race played a part. Given the context I would be very surprised it didn’t play a part.

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  134. Iconoclast

    Wow, what dragged this up again?

    He asked, three days later…

    We’ll never know, neither will the FBI.

    So what is the point of insisting on “discussing” it?

    Oh I see, the FBI are the owners of the truth now.

    Like I said, a fucking twit…

    Awesome.

    Ain’t it?

    I’ve said nothing unreasonable…

    “…the FBI are the owners of the truth now…”

    “I guess the US is post-racial after all then. Congrats, that’s great to hear.”

    None of us, including the FBI, can tell whether race played a part.

    And yet you still insist on accusing Zimmerman of making “race-based decisions”, in spite of an utter lack of evidence to support such accusations. And you continue to deny that you’re making accusations.

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  135. CM

    He asked, three days later…

    What’s that meant to mean? Stuff gets buried here within days (although very little happened during that particular three days, so I could see you’d responded), so something must have triggered you to respond 25 days later. Was just wondering.

    And yet you still insist on accusing Zimmerman of making “race-based decisions”, in spite of an utter lack of evidence to support such accusations. And you continue to deny that you’re making accusations.

    Given the context I think it’s probably likely yeah – more likely than not likely, that’s for sure. I never claimed there was evidence. I’ve actively stated that I was speculating.

    “…the FBI are the owners of the truth now…”

    “I guess the US is post-racial after all then. Congrats, that’s great to hear.”

    Sarcasm isn’t meant to be reasonable. That’s kind of the point of it.

    Like I said, a fucking twit…

    It won’t come as news that the feeling is mutual.

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  136. Iconoclast

    Was just wondering.

    I’m not the one whining about things being dragged up again. I was just going back to look at old threads and noticed your reply of July 24th, six days after my July 18th post. It just strikes me as strange that you would complain “wonder” about delayed responses, given that.

    Sarcasm isn’t meant to be reasonable.

    Which perfectly explains…

    I’ve said nothing unreasonable…

    Oh…wait…

    It won’t come as news that the feeling is mutual.

    Of course. I’ve suspected it all along (forthcoming knee-jerk denials notwithstanding). Kinda goes with your repeated accusations of dishonesty on my part.

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  137. CM

    I’m not the one whining about things being dragged up again.

    Wow, you really do have some issues. There was no ‘whining’ involved. This whole taking-things-the-wrong-way is a pathology with you isn’t it?
    I reckon if I said “Hello” you’d interpret it as “Fuck You”.

    Of course. I’ve suspected it all along (forthcoming knee-jerk denials notwithstanding). Kinda goes with your repeated accusations of dishonesty on my part.

    Ok well, for the sake of everyone, let’s start over. I’ll try to cut back on the leg-humpin’.

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  138. Iconoclast

    This whole taking-things-the-wrong-way is a pathology with you isn’t it?

    Again, it goes hand-in-hand with your repeated accusations of “dishonesty” on my part. I’m not terribly motivated to take things any other way than the way I’ve been taking them. If you wanna masturbate over calling it a “pathology”, then go for it.

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  139. CM

    I think I’ll keep my pants on for now at least ;-)

    It’s just that you have an incredible knack of interpreting things in way they weren’t intended, and responding accordingly. It’s one thing to genuinely misinterpret what someone means, it’s quite another to do misinterpret over and over again (AND act on it). After a while it appears deliberate, and then it becomes misrepresentation.

    You’re right though – you’re free to keep doing it. The only difference is that now you might be aware of how obvious it is.

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  140. Iconoclast

    Again, it goes hand-in-hand with your repeated accusations of “dishonesty” on my part. I’m not terribly motivated to take things any other way than the way I’ve been taking them.

    Tedious is your middle name isn’t it?

    CM, May 23, 2013 5:00 PM — “IRS and AP Scandal Updates”

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