«

»

Opposite Poles of the Debate

Rumor, rumors, rumors:

The White House is weighing a far broader and more comprehensive approach to curbing the nation’s gun violence than simply reinstating an expired ban on assault weapons and high-capacity ammunition, according to multiple people involved in the administration’s discussions.

A working group led by Vice President Biden is seriously considering measures backed by key law enforcement leaders that would require universal background checks for firearm buyers, track the movement and sale of weapons through a national database, strengthen mental health checks, and stiffen penalties for carrying guns near schools or giving them to minors, the sources said.

What, you hoped they were coming up with something original? It bears pointing out that not one of those provisions — not one — would have prevented Sandy Hook. The guns used were legal and the shooter’s mother would have passed a background check. The shooter wasn’t a minor. And it was already illegal to have guns near a school. But I guess we could have fined the shooter’s corpse afterward.

Moreover, it’s not clear that, apart from the strengthened mental health checks, these would prevent any shooting whatsoever. Criminals don’t obey the law. They don’t care about gun-free school laws. Many of them don’t buy weapons legally (the Sandy Hook shooter stole his). This will make it feel like we’re doing something by inconveniencing millions of law-abiding citizens. But it will have little impact on gun violence.

One could argue that an assault weapons ban or magazine limit might have limited the carnage. I’m not convinced. But at least that’s an argument. This? Honestly, I’m reminded of the way TSA respond to terrorism. Every time a terrorist attack happens, TSA enact some new rule that has little to do with what happened. They clearly have a list of infringements on our liberties and use each terrorist act to advance the next one. It’s clear that the gun-grabbers have a list of steps to take. And these are the next ones.

I’m fine with strengthening mental health checks. “Universal background checks” is, I suspect, code for trying to put background checks in place for private sales. But making such a system available to private sellers is fine. But tracking weapons is simply not on (less than 1 in 25,000 guns is used to commit a murder). And making gun-free schools even more gun-free is an appeal to magic. It might make us feel good, but there’s little evidence it will do anythingg.

On the opposite end of the gun debate — the one I call reality — we have this:

A woman hiding in her attic with children shot an intruder multiple times before fleeing to safety Friday.

The incident happened at a home on Henderson Ridge Lane in Loganville around 1 p.m. The woman was working in an upstairs office when she spotted a strange man outside a window, according to Walton County Sheriff Joe Chapman. He said she took her 9-year-old twins to a crawlspace before the man broke in using a crowbar.

But the man eventually found the family.

“The perpetrator opens that door. Of course, at that time he’s staring at her, her two children and a .38 revolver,” Chapman told Channel 2’s Kerry Kavanaugh.

The woman then shot him five times, but he survived, Chapman said. He said the woman ran out of bullets but threatened to shoot the intruder if he moved.

Holy shit, Loganville? I’ve been to Loganville. Anyway, this guy managed to drive away before passing out. She injured a number of internal organs and it’s not clear that he’ll survive.

Would this man have harmed this woman and her children? Only he and God know. But I do know this: in that situation, I wouldn’t want to cling to the hope that the serial criminal who’d broken into my house was going to be merciful. And I wouldn’t want to sit there and wait until the cops arrived.

33 comments

No ping yet

  1. balthazar says:

    Obviously she has great gun control, but I think she should be upgrading in caliber. No way someone hit 5 times in the face and head with a 45 would survive.

    Thumb up 7 Thumb down 1

      
  2. Hal_10000 says:

    Still, hitting with five shots out of six in those circumstances is pretty good.

    Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

      
  3. balthazar says:

    Still, hitting with five shots out of six in those circumstances is pretty good.

    Isnt that what i said?

    Thumb up 6 Thumb down 2

      
  4. Hal_10000 says:

    Oh, Jeez. And now Joe Arpaio has gotten his posse going..

    Thumb up 0 Thumb down 6

      
  5. Mississippi Yankee says:

    Oh, Jeez. And now Joe Arpaio has gotten his posse going..

    I sense you don’t approve of this six times elected sheriff or at least his tactics. Heaven know your source, The Huffington Post, isn’t very fond of him. Nor is Arizona’s 3TV which they quote as saying:
    Arizona’s 3TV reports that Arpaio’s volunteer force is comprised of around 3,000 members, some of which have criminal pasts.

    Knowing full well that any criminal pasts above a misdemeanor would disqualify them from owning, or carrying a gun.

    Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

      
  6. Seattle Outcast says:

    I’ve heard for years that a .38 was about worthless as a defense weapon, now I see why. I’m going to guess that it was loaded up with shitty “factory ammo”, which for a .38 has been documented to have been stopped by as little as a folded up newspaper.

    Would have been much better off with some 125 grain JHP with muzzle velocity of 1000 FPS or better.

    Thumb up 5 Thumb down 1

      
  7. HARLEY says:

    I would not doubt it it was ball ammo or soft lead. .38 is a bit underpowered, but not totally useless. now 32ACP is fucking useless.
    What i find amusing,again, is that not to long ago the Anti-gunners were ranting and raving about “Saturday night specials”, snub nosed revolvers. and from what we are hearing this lady used one…

    However, this lady could be in legal trouble, no where in any of the reports did i see the indication that the intruder had a gun or any weapon…so, shooting a unarmed man… could be problematic, if he lives, or his survivors might sure, saying he was there to, oh i dont know, check the meter…. or some such.

    Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

      
  8. Mississippi Yankee says:

    HARLEY,
    Georgia has had a Castle Doctrine law since April 27, 2006. I don’t think this perp has a leg to stand on.

    Hydra-Shok® is about the only ammo I’d use in a .38 (or a 380 too). After all it ain’t a hunting weapon.

    Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      
  9. HARLEY says:

    Georgia has had a Castle Doctrine law since April 27, 2006. I don’t think this perp has a leg to stand on.

    OIH! i forgot all about that, however lawyers……..
    Has anyone seen this story making the headlines on MSNBCCNNCBAABC?

    Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      
  10. Hal_10000 says:

    I sense you don’t approve of this six times elected sheriff or at least his tactics. Heaven know your source, The Huffington Post, isn’t very fond of him. Nor is Arizona’s 3TV which they quote as saying:
    Arizona’s 3TV reports that Arpaio’s volunteer force is comprised of around 3,000 members, some of which have criminal pasts.

    I don’t approve of his massive civil liberties violations, his attempts to put a cordon around Maricopa County and search everyone entering, his vendettas against public officials, the millions the taxpayers have had to fork out in lawsuits over abuse and deaths in his prisons, his failures to investigate sex crimes, his habit of shackling women in labor and taking away their babies, his misuse of funds, his abuse of power, the staged assassination plot and that the fact that Maricopa County is the only county in Arizona that hasn’t seen its crime rate plummet over the last 12 years.

    And yes, I disagree with a bunch of unvetted amateurs — some of whom have criminal records — being organized into a gun-totting posse to fight a non-existent problem. This isn’t the first time he’s done this sort of thing.

    Being elected six times don’t mean shit to me. Ted Kennedy was elected nine times.

    Hot! Thumb up 9 Thumb down 6

      
  11. Mississippi Yankee says:

    Hal, with your above screed you’ve officially become the Ed Schultz/ Chris Mathews persona of RTFTLC.
    {not sure if it pays more but …}

    Thumb up 4 Thumb down 3

      
  12. mrblume says:

    People who like Joe Arpaio do so because crossing a perceived liberal establishment is more important to them than any values of their own. It doesn’t matter what he does, as long as he doesn’t say he likes Mexicans. For proof, see the post directly above.

    Thumb up 1 Thumb down 6

      
  13. Xetrov says:

    I’m pretty sure I’m the only one posting here who actually lives in Maricopa County, and I overall like him, and it has nothing to do with “crossing a perceived liberal establishment”. Tent city, and pink underwear is a fantastic idea that should be adopted around the country. Hal, much of what you malign him for is bullshit half-truths perpetrated by a liberal media.

    Hot! Thumb up 8 Thumb down 2

      
  14. Hal_10000 says:

    Hal, with your above screed you’ve officially become the Ed Schultz/ Chris Mathews persona of RTFTLC.
    {not sure if it pays more but …}

    My salary doubles every time I link to HuffPo. So now I’m up to … uh … shit.

    Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

      
  15. Mississippi Yankee says:

    Hal, much of what you malign him for is bullshit half-truths perpetrated by a liberal media.

    Say it isn’t so… the quasi- intellectual pundits that Hal favors, and quotes, would never stoop so low.

    Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

      
  16. Kimpost says:

    Ok, I’ll bite, albeit half-heartedly. Why is pink underwear not only a good, but a fantastic idea? Is it because it’s good that inmates finally get what they deserve *nudge-nudge-wink-wink*? Arpaio is a stand up no nonsense type of guy? Refreshing as opposed to liberal social science pussies?

    Not trying to put words in your mouth X, but I’m curious. What’s really good about him? My feelings for the guy are obvious. His persona symbolizes stupid in a world which is way too stupid already.

    Thumb up 2 Thumb down 5

      
  17. Xetrov says:

    Why is pink underwear not only a good, but a fantastic idea?

    Because it makes me laugh. ;-)

    Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

      
  18. HARLEY says:

    I’m pretty sure I’m the only one posting here who actually lives in Maricopa County,

    Shit, wish i knew,that i woudl have bought you a beer last week.

    Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

      
  19. hist_ed says:

    Still, hitting with five shots out of six in those circumstances is pretty good.

    The report I read said it was 5 out of 5 (either a five shot gun or no round under the hammer).

    Geeze, this was a situation where more bullets might have been a good idea. Maybe even 15. Course, she doesn’t need 15, but after plugging the guy a few times have some follow up firepower would have been nice.

    Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

      
  20. mrblume says:

    Geeze, this was a situation where more bullets might have been a good idea. Maybe even 15. Course, she doesn’t need 15, but after plugging the guy a few times have some follow up firepower would have been nice.

    What you really need for these kinds of situations is a machete, and a full bladder, to unload into the headless trunk!

    Thumb up 0 Thumb down 4

      
  21. Kimpost says:

    Because it makes me laugh. ;-)

    Probably the best possible answer. :)

    Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

      
  22. mrblume says:

    Probably the best possible answer. :)

    It’s an ok answer on a blog, but a terrible one when you’re in the voting booth.

    Thumb up 0 Thumb down 6

      
  23. Section8 says:

    Would this man have harmed this woman and her children?

    Does it matter? It’s only a matter of time before her husband will get drunk and kill her and the kids with the gun anyhow. That’s how some here apparently view it based on what I’ve read in previous threads. Then again maybe she’ll just use it to commit suicide before that happens. Those are the end results of having guns according to some on the left. Doesn’t matter if there are plenty of countries with higher suicide rates per capita that have much stricter controls on guns. Maybe they have higher rates because we have guns here? I’m sure there’s a way that could be spun too.

    What you really need for these kinds of situations is a machete, and a full bladder, to unload into the headless trunk!

    What better way to stop senseless escalating violence by victims protecting themselves than for committed leftists to post signs in front of their houses stating they are willing to sacrifice their families so that any violence perpetrated by the intruder won’t be escalated further. Then we don’t have to worry about poor burglars/rapists/murderers getting shot, families that don’t want to be invaded just by chance won’t have to worry about it, and go overboard because they are scared and want to survive in what they perceive as an attack, and of course no more pink underwear or any type of punishment for that matter. All you guys have to do is post a sign, and we’re all good.

    Thumb up 7 Thumb down 1

      
  24. Hal_10000 says:

    Hal, much of what you malign him for is bullshit half-truths perpetrated by a liberal media.

    Almost none of it is even in dispute. Joe does not dispute these things; he claims they are justified. To give but one example: when one of his officers was caught on tape illegally rifling through a defense attorney’s papers and taking something, Joe didn’t deny it. He simply said, in effect, that he was above the law and had a vigil to protest the judge demanding an apology from the deputy (usually that’s at least a fine and maybe jail time for contempt of court and violating attorney-client privilege).

    If you are a MC resident, how do you feel about the city forking out $43 million over the inmates who have died in his prisons? How do you feel about him investigating Obama’s birth certificate?

    And that still doesn’t justify putting together a posse to patrol the one part of Maricopa County where children are safest — in school.

    Thumb up 3 Thumb down 4

      
  25. Mississippi Yankee says:

    What better way to stop senseless escalating violence by victims protecting themselves than for committed leftists to post signs in front of their houses stating they are willing to sacrifice their families so that any violence perpetrated by the intruder won’t be escalated further.

    The “Way of the Leaf” is the philosophy of the Tuatha’an and the Jenn Aiel.

    “The leaf lives its appointed time, and does not struggle against the wind that carries it away. The leaf does no harm, and finally falls to nourish new leaves. So it should be with all men. And women.”
    —Aram

    Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      
  26. Biggie G says:

    A lot of people are bringing up mental health testing and records as part of a comprehensive gun control plan. Am I the only one that finds this a little troubling? I know that someone may want to fit me with a foil hat, but:

    1. Mental illness has been the favorite excuse of totalitarian governments to deal with dissidents.

    2. In my lifetime, homosexuality was considered a mental illness. The DSM changes constantly and some of those changes may be political.

    3. Ten years ago, the Worst Thing Ever was that the FBI could get a warrant and find out what books you took out of the library. Does anyone trust a government database of someone’s mental health diagnoses?

    Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

      
  27. InsipiD says:

    Does anyone trust a government database of someone’s mental health diagnoses?

    And what constitutes a file-worthy diagnosis or event? Does taking Paxil put you on the verboten list?

    Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

      
  28. Hal_10000 says:

    Biggie, I think you raise some important points, especially given our government’s propensity for labeling people as ADHD, etc. One of the big stories that came out after Sandy Hook was that the shooter had Asperger’s. Never mind that Asperger’s had NOTHING to do with this and that Asperger’s people are, in general, less violent. Aspergers! It sounds bad!

    In fact, most mentally ill people are not violent (depressives, for example, are unlikely to be violent except to themselves). The danger is from people who are disturbed and violent.

    Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

      
  29. Xetrov says:

    Almost none of it is even in dispute.

    Obviously.

    when one of his officers was caught on tape illegally rifling through a defense attorney’s papers and taking something

    The video of what happened is online. A copy was made of one document, and it was returned. The Judge ordered the detention officer to issue “a sinercre verbal and written apology for invadng her defense file and for the damage that his conduct may have caused to her professional reputation.” She didn’t even claim what the guy did was actually illegal. He refused and was held in contempt. The judge refused to release what was in the document (under client/attorney priviledge), and the officer’s charge that he was investigating it because he thought it had evidence of a crime on it has never really been answered that I can find. An appeals court ordered the release of the deputy, and told the judge to order a fine instead of forcing an apology/jail time. A fine that I can’t find was ever actually imposed.

    Joe does not dispute these things

    As I said. Half-truths. In your example, he desputed that the deputy did anything wrong. Yeah, he did it in a dickish manner, but to say he didn’t dispute it is only telling half the story.

    If you are a MC resident, how do you feel about the city forking out $43 million over the inmates who have died in his prisons?

    How upset are Kern County California residents over this single lawsuit costing them $6 million? Lawsuits for inmate deaths happen everywhere. Just because the leftist media is out to get Joe doesn’t make the lawsuits more important or costly than other places (and I can’t find figures comparing Maricopa to other counties as far as costs for such suits).

    How do you feel about him investigating Obama’s birth certificate?

    It’s asinine, and he needs to stop.

    And that still doesn’t justify putting together a posse to patrol the one part of Maricopa County where children are safest — in school.

    They are outside schools, and only in non-incorporated areas of Maricopa County (IE: “The boonies”). He can only send them to places where he has primary law enforcement responsibilities (anywhere that doesn’t already have its own police force, such as an incorporated town or city). I don’t have a huge problem with him doing that. Media organizations talk about these Posse members like they are straight out of a biker gang or something (one article I read talked about speaking with a posse member who was once arrested for cocaine possession – no mention of conviction, guess innocent until proven guilty doesn’t matter to the media…or you). I have several good friends who are members of the posse, who are great guys, and former military. I’d have no problem with them sitting outside my son’s school in that capacity. Unless and until there are actual issues with these deputy’s sitting outside schools, you’re just barking at the noise the media wants you to.

    Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

      
  30. salinger says:

    Biggie, I think you raise some important points, especially given our government’s propensity for labeling people as ADHD, etc.

    How is this a governmental propensity? I can buy it as a diagnosis pushed by the pharmaceutical industry and sought after by parents who simply cannot be bothered with parenting – but I am not seeing how it benefits the government to encourage these diagnosis.

    In fact I have seen the recommendation more often from a school (the only government organization I could think of who would be involved in this diagnosis) to NOT have one’s child diagnosed for this or any of the spectrum disorders because of the way private insurance handles these diagnosis.

    E.G. Say your child is showing the signs of being ADHD or on the Autism spectrum. A clinical diagnosis of these syndromes makes their treatment ineligible for insurance coverage under the majority of private insurance plans (because it is a syndrome not a disease per se). Therefor, I have known parents who have been told by the schools to not have their child diagnosed. Mainly because the individual education plan for the child would not be changed by the diagnosis while the official medical diagnosis would be a red flag to insurers and could cause denials of service in the future.

    I think this highlights a real area needing attention – that of mental and cognitive disorders being considered non-insurable by some carriers.

    Thumb up 3 Thumb down 4

      
  31. CM says:

    Alex Jones would seem to be the poster-child for ADHD.

    Thumb up 5 Thumb down 3

      
  32. mrblume says:

    All you guys have to do is post a sign, and we’re all good.

    As usual, what we have here is the inability to differentiate between some very straightforward principles (the right to defend oneself, with a gun or otherwise), and a culture where you glorify unnecessary violence because it’s “nice”. If it’s good fun to muse about unloading a couple of rounds into the guy, why can’t I have him beheaded? What, is that were you draw the line? I guess we want to be civilized.

    The next time you’re all wondering about the number of school shooting, maybe this is the place to start right here.

    How upset are Kern County California residents over this single lawsuit costing them $6 million? Lawsuits for inmate deaths happen everywhere.

    Yep, there’s a place that’s only a tenth is bad, which proves Joe is running an A-ok outfit.

    Thumb up 0 Thumb down 5

      
  33. Section8 says:

    As usual, what we have here is the inability to differentiate between some very straightforward principles (the right to defend oneself, with a gun or otherwise), and a culture where you glorify unnecessary violence because it’s “nice”.

    I think it’s more of an inability to differentiate between saying good for the victim instead of look what happened to the poor, misunderstood guy and he’s really a victim too.

    If it was the culture to glorify unnecessary violence then the comments would have been, “It would have been cool if he raped her first, beat the kids, then somehow she recovers, grabs the gun and shoots him. Then he stumbles out the door and is shot 500 times by the cops just like in the movies.”

    Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

      

Comments have been disabled.