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Wherein I Call for Throwing Israel Under the Bus

We’re watching a typical fake truce in action in the Middle East right now. New rockets are on the way for Hamas and new Israeli settlements are being built further and further east. It’s only a matter of time before the next bloodletting begins.

All of this has led me to question why exactly it’s considered to be “conservative” to support Israel. Let’s acknowledge the fact that the Israelis are underdogs (they’re outnumbered in the Middle East anyway) and they’re pretty badass in their way. It’s certainly natural to respect them, but why in the world do we support them in such a knee-jerk fashion?

Bear with me here. This is an overdue conversation among American conservatives.

What are conservatives getting out of this relationship, specifically; and what is the US getting in general out of our special relationship with Israel? I notice that American conservatives always support Israel to the hilt and talk about what irredeemable monsters the Palestinians are, but it never seems to make a major difference in the Jewish vote. Why exactly do we care more about keeping Israel Jewish than….Jewish people do? Every time there’s an election in this country, American Jews overwhelmingly vote for the Democrat (who is generally less inclined to care about Israel than the Republican candidate). They don’t give a shit. Why do we persist?

As for the US’s interests, the unquestionable support that the US has for Israel is doing nothing much but pitting us against the Arab world (and increasingly, the Turks) for the sake of very little. Is this a good decision to make toward the national interest? Pissing off 400 million+ plus people who control a shitload of oil for the benefit of 6 million people who provide us with no vital resources or anything else, really?

Is it about supporting democracy? Because democracy is essentially bullshit, you know. I’ve never understood why promoting and defending democracy overseas is such a priority for some conservatives. Democracy has made a royal fucking wreck out of the US, after all.

Are we worried about a human rights disaster if Israel is wiped out? That’s a nice moral concern, but the US does a fine job of ignoring such things in countries where the people don’t look like us. Why is any of this our job, anyway? The Palestinians aren’t our enemies or even our problem. Even Hamas isn’t a particular threat to the US. This instinctive desire to root for Israel and curse the Palestinians makes less and less sense to me with every rocket fired and bomb dropped.

Now I’m not going all anti-Zionist here. Israel has every right to exist as a Jewish state. What I can’t wrap my head around is why we think it’s our job to defend them and demand their protection regardless of what (sometimes brutal) steps they take to maintain that status. That Israeli lobbying cash that keeps our elected representatives in thrall isn’t lining any of my pockets. How about you? I think our “leaders” are duping us, truthfully.

Simply put, I’m tired of defending Israel when the rewards are clearly diminishing, if there are any at all. Demographics and political developments among Israel’s neighbors give me a bad feeling that we’re supporting the losing side for no good reason.

It’s perfectly appropriate for us to admire a romantic and embattled people. It’s another thing entirely–and arguably not conservative–to place the ambitions of such a nation above the long-term interests of the United States. I think it’s time for American conservatives to break up this bad romance.

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  1. Argive says:

    I notice that American conservatives always support Israel to the hilt and talk about what irredeemable monsters the Palestinians are, but it never seems to make a major difference in the Jewish vote. Why exactly do we care more about keeping Israel Jewish than….Jewish people do? Every time there’s an election in this country, American Jews overwhelmingly vote for the Democrat (who is generally less inclined to care about Israel than the Republican candidate). They don’t give a shit. Why do we persist?

    Yeah, as a Jewish person, this intense focus on Israel has always puzzled me too. In my experience (and all this is 100% my opinion and anecdotal) Jews tend to think Israel is an important issue, but I’ve yet to meet more than maybe two or three for whom Israel is the issue. I’m not sure why conservatives seem to think that hammering on their support for Israel over and over again will help them get the Jewish vote; most American Jews are fairly liberal across the board and aren’t going to vote Republican any time soon. Also bear in mind that opinions regarding Israel tend to fluctuate pretty wildly among American Jews. I certainly know more than a few who loathe Bibi and Avigdor Lieberman.

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  2. Seattle Outcast says:

    I always thought it a guilt trip over WW2.

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  3. Mook says:

    Muslims are a threat to Americans, and Israelis have been a friend. Support of Israel is a relatively low-cost military outpost in the middle east. Israelis spill their blood fighting our common enemy – bloodthirsty muslim extremists.

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  4. Poosh says:

    The Israelis are not some foreign backwater nation, or some wannabe bunch of pissed off savages angry that they can’t even build a generator without some white man coming along to direct them. They’re essentially the same western creatures as you and me. They’re a western outpost in the middle of a cesspool. That’s why you support them. They’re the canary in the coal mine. They’re you. Look up the sheer scientific output that the Israelis produce – in their scrap of land. They’re the West. That. Is. Why.

    An attack on one.

    Is an attack on all.

    Sadly, something forgotten in this decadent age.

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  5. Poosh says:

    And Conservatives, I don’t know why you would think this anyway, I’m not even American and I know this, do not support Israel because of the Jewish vote. They do it because it’s RIGHT.

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  6. Thrill says:

    Muslims are a threat to Americans

    I firmly reject that. We have no war with the greater Muslim world, even if a fraction of its believers want to fight us.

    Support of Israel is a relatively low-cost military outpost in the middle east.

    The monetary cost is low, sure. The damage to our standing isn’t though. There is a huge indirect cost to blindly supporting Israel and that is what I’m questioning the value of.

    Israelis spill their blood fighting our common enemy – bloodthirsty muslim extremists.

    Whose enemy? We’re not at war with general Muslims nor should we be. There’s like a billion of them. We certainly don’t have a historical beef with the Palestinians. It’s not our war.

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  7. Thrill says:

    They’re essentially the same western creatures as you and me.

    That’s either a very emotional viewpoint or a strict interpretation of Huntington’s Clash of Civilizations. Either way, I’m all about America’s national interest here. I don’t see what purpose is being served here except to use Israel as a proxy in a war with people we aren’t at war with.

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  8. Mook says:

    I firmly reject that. We have no war with the greater Muslim world, even if a fraction of its believers want to fight us.

    It’s more than a tiny “fraction” of muslims who have it in for infidels. They’ve brought the war to us and they’re hell bent to convert or kill us. Palestinians danced with their families after hearing of the 9/11 attacks, widespread support among muslims for use of terrorism, widespread muslim admiration of Osama bin Laden, muslim organizations teaching their children to hate the jews, etc. They’re murderous savages.

    The damage to our standing isn’t though.

    Anyone who thinks less of us for supporting Israel is no friend… and probably an enemy. And no matter how much we try to appease the muslims, that further emboldens them. Jews aren’t the problem – muslims are.. they keep reminding us of their “tolerance” with every beheading, stoning, rocket launch, and pizza parlor bombing of children, all done in the name of Islam.

    If we abandonded support of Israel tomorrow, muslims would continue to murder and persecute infidels. Israel is only an excuse, not the cause.

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  9. Thrill says:

    They’ve brought the war to us and they’re hell bent to convert or kill us.

    And it’s appropriate for us to be at war with those particular Muslims who have made war on us. What isn’t appropriate is for us to be tangled up in a land dispute that wasn’t our making, isn’t really our problem, and holds no benefits for our nation.

    Israel is only an excuse, not the cause.

    But why even give them an excuse to hate us? There’s no reason the US needs to be involved in that squabble beyond “they look and act like us!”, is there?

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  10. AlexInCT says:

    All of this has led me to question why exactly it’s considered to be “conservative” to support Israel.

    I don’t support Israel because I am conservative or they are: I support them because they are about the only civilized entity, reflective of western values and prosperity, in a sea of stupid and backward looking death worshippers. I like winners. People that work hard, even against scary bad odds. I hate idiots that blame others for problems caused by their stupid believes, backwardness, and dysfunctions. I find that I have little sympathy for life’s losers when the damage is self inflicted. It is a main reason I am also not a liberal.

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  11. Kimpost says:

    I don’t think that Thrill is saying “To hell with Israel. They’ll stand alone whatever happens, because it’s not our conflict”.

    Now I’m not going all anti-Zionist here. Israel has every right to exist as a Jewish state. What I can’t wrap my head around is why we think it’s our job to defend them and demand their protection regardless of what (sometimes brutal) steps they take to maintain that status. That Israeli lobbying cash that keeps our elected representatives in thrall isn’t lining any of my pockets. How about you? I think our “leaders” are duping us, truthfully.

    I read that as, that US support for Israel sometimes might have been a bit blind. Might. And that US support in the future perhaps should be a bit more carefully considered.

    Speaking for myself, I don’t want an isolationist US. I want you guys leading the pack. If the financial costs are too high, we should discuss sharing them. The EU is equally fucked financially anyway, so we should be able to pick up a tab or two. We’ll just pay for it… tomorrow. Or we can start writing IOU’s to one another (we kind of already are, so…)

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  12. Thrill says:

    Alex, your comment comes down to us supporting Israel because we despise those screw-up Arabs. When there’s apparently no other reason for us to support Israel the way we do, I can see why Arabs would believe that to be the case.

    This isn’t good for our country.

    Sure, there are things that Muslims dislike about us but I have no problem with that when we’re doing what’s best for ourselves economically, diplomatically, and militarily. That’s the way it ought to be. What I don’t like is when we put ourselves at odds with a sizable chunk of the Earth’s population for no good reason and no advantage.

    The sum total of the arguments I’m seeing here is “Israelis are like us, Palestinians aren’t therefore we must support the Israelis even though we get nothing out of it but the joy of being nice to good people.” That’s not a foreign policy.

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  13. Mook says:

    There’s no reason the US needs to be involved in that squabble beyond “they look and act like us!”, is there?

    We (the US) have suffered multiple deadly terrorist attacks done in the name of Islam. Anyone who fights and kills these murderous vermin deserves our support. Israel is doing much of the dirty, but necessary work of killing and monitoring muslim terrorist organizations. Without that dirty and necessary work done by Israel, we would be in more danger, not less.

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  14. Thrill says:

    If the financial costs are too high, we should discuss sharing them.

    It’s not just that. I’m sick of the US having to support all of these stupid, unworkable borders that came about when the European powers couldn’t maintain their colonies anymore after WW2. Israel/Palestine is part of that. There are dozens of similar situations and they’re all unstable because of stupid borders that aren’t our fault and shouldn’t be our responsibility.

    I would very much like to let the people affected by it resolve it themselves, yes, when our interests are not at stake and the outcome doesn’t affect us.

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  15. Thrill says:

    Without that dirty and necessary work done by Israel, we would be in more danger, not less.

    What, if Israel wasn’t fighting Hamas, we would be? Outside of the land dispute and our unwavering support for Israel, I have a hard time seeing what the Arab world would want to fight with us about. If they simply wanted to take over the world, I’m pretty sure they’d have to work their way to us or something.

    None of those countries are a military threat to us and none of them have a reason to go to war with us either. Why we insist on giving their clerics and masses a pretext to hate us is beyond me.

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  16. Poosh says:

    Muslims are a threat to Americans, and Israelis have been a friend.

    As someone whose family is half Muslim, I’d like to assure you that many, many Muslims are not a threat to America or anywhere else.

    That’s either a very emotional viewpoint or a strict interpretation of Huntington’s Clash of Civilizations

    That’s not emotional, that’s a generalisation based on reality and observing what the average Israeli will do if left to her or his own devices. Do you doubt you would need much self-modification, other than language, to assimilate into Israel? Albeit Israel is probably a little more socialist for you to stomach. And you are at war with Israel’s enemies, evasion of reality does not negate the fact that Israel is just one enemy on a list, for them. Removing Israel is akin to Hitler’s neutralisation of Poland.

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  17. Mook says:

    Outside of the land dispute and our unwavering support for Israel, I have a hard time seeing what the Arab world would want to fight with us about.

    Given the countless examples of muslim savagery done in the name of Islam, I find that statement to be naive to an extreme. Coptic Christians aren’t in any comparable land dispute, yet they’re slaughtered and persecuted by muslims. Muslims have a history of murdering and oppressing anyone who isn’t muslim.

    There used to be large populations of Jews and Christians in Syria, Iraq and Egypt. Ever wonder what happened to them? They were murdered and run off while muslims confiscated their property. THAT is what Isreal is standing up to. And they deserve to be supported for doing so.

    Ending support for Israel won’t make these backward ass muslims hate us any less. Like Alex said, they’re a death cult. Israel is only their latest excuse.

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  18. Poosh says:

    I have a hard time seeing what the Arab world would want to fight with us about.

    You don’t possess the consciousness of the average arab on the street who has not had any of the cultural and educational benefits that you have, or the language that you possess. I’m sure you can’t possibly fathom women protesting their government’s attempt to create sexual equality but it still happens in the ME, women demanding less rights.

    And I would recommend looking at some history (I know that sounds patronising, I was not trying to me lol, I merely mean looking at real (not politicly correct) history, the crusades, for example. As we’re correctly reminded the “Muslim world” is stuck in a medieval mindset. *slow clap* What is the implication of that? The implication are planes slamming into your buildings.

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  19. Thrill says:

    Albeit Israel is probably a little more socialist for you to stomach.

    Well, that and that I’m not Jewish and probably wouldn’t easily be allowed to emigrate (someone can fact check me).

    And you are at war with Israel’s enemies, evasion of reality does not negate the fact that Israel is just one enemy on a list, for them.

    We’re not at war with Israel’s enemies. I’ll emphasize that: We are not at war with Israel’s enemies. Israel is a sovereign nation and its wars are not our making nor do we have a real stake in the outcome. Israel is at odds with the Palestinians and its neighbors because it established itself on territory that they felt belonged to them, conquered additional territory from its neighbors when they attacked it, and is now unwilling to either give any of that territory back or allow statehood for the Palestinians without whatever it considers to be security guarantees.

    Nothing to do with the United States. Nothing.

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  20. Thrill says:

    Given the countless examples of muslim savagery done in the name of Islam, I find that statement to be naive to an extreme.

    What do any of the examples you cited have to do with the US or its interests? You want to invade Egypt to protect the Coptic Christians? Should we bomb Iran to keep them from stringing up homos? Want to invade Afghanistan to give women equal rights under Sharia Law (fuck, we’re already doing that)? Should we nuke Saudi Arabia for still practicing slavery?

    If you’re so eager to fight other people’s wars, I have to question who the real danger to peace is. Us or them.

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  21. Mook says:

    We’re not at war with Israel’s enemies

    Yes we are. Islamic terrorists are Israel’s enemies and they’re our enemies too. The muslim terrorists who supported the 9/11 attacks are the same ones who deny Israel’s right to exist. Israel is just one of the enemies of these islamic fanatics.. others include gays, women who want to drive, and anyone who isn’t a devout muslim

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  22. Thrill says:

    As someone whose family is half Muslim, I’d like to assure you that many, many Muslims are not a threat to America or anywhere else.

    You should say: “The overwhelming majority of Muslims are not a threat to America”.

    You don’t possess the consciousness of the average arab on the street who has not had any of the cultural and educational benefits that you have, or the language that you possess.

    So you’re saying I just have to take your word for it that they want world domination and will totally get there if they can just knock out those 6 million Jews on a near-worthless and thin scrap of land? I’m not buying it.

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  23. Mook says:

    What do any of the examples you cited have to do with the US or its interests? You want to invade Egypt to protect the Coptic Christians?

    If the Coptic Christians were as effective as the Israelis in fighting terrorists, I would be in support of sending them arms. One doesn’t have to “invade” in order to support those who fight our common enemies. Those who kill our muslim fanatics are in fact, helping the US and our interests by eliminating those who want to kill us. Israel’s efforts in fighting Islamic radicals makes the US more safe.

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  24. Poosh says:

    Israel is at odds with the Palestinians and its neighbors because it established itself on territory that they felt belonged to them

    That’s really not what’s going on here. After all other Muslim countries annexed more land. This is just an excuse. This really has nothing, NOTHING to do with the land. It’s a patch of worthless dirt after all that’s only real value was created by Israelis who engaged in capitalism and democracy.

    And who arms and funds Hamas? To whom do Hamas really answer to? I don’t think you grasp the conduits of power here, or the political philosophy (faux religion) that is the foundation here. When I say war, sure, not a declared war, but war none-the-less. As if Saddam didn’t allow and instigate countless Islamist terrorists free movement, as if Iran did not arm Islamist groups who then proceeded to kill allied soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan. As if the Muslim Brotherhood does not reach out across the globe to create The House of Islam.

    Men do not spill blood or die in droves to acquire patches of worthless land. They do it for emotional or theological reasons. Pride in nation or religion, envy, you name it… the desire to subjugate someone as an expression of power, or the desire to harm others merely because it pleases one. But a man does not die for a scrap of worthless land. There is no life any Palestinian could find in Israel that they could not find today on the scraps of land they currently possess: after all every civilisation and state today started with scraps. It’s not about “the land”. And it rarely is.

    On a different point, I’m tired of liberals suspiciously telling me the Palestinians are a nation; and people; and culturally autonomous entity – whilst simultaneously telling me that nations are fictions, the causes of all problems; there is no such thing as a “people”, they’re fictions created by states or capitalists; and that culture is manufactured and a fiction.

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  25. Mook says:

    You should say: “The overwhelming majority of Muslims are not a threat to America”.

    Overwhelming majority?

    World Public Opinion: 61% of Egyptians approve of attacks on Americans
    32% of Indonesians approve of attacks on Americans
    41% of Pakistanis approve of attacks on Americans
    38% of Moroccans approve of attacks on Americans
    83% of Palestinians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (only 14% oppose)
    62% of Jordanians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (21% oppose)
    42% of Turks approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (45% oppose)
    A minority of Muslims disagreed entirely with terror attacks on Americans:
    (Egypt 34%; Indonesia 45%; Pakistan 33%)
    About half of those opposed to attacking Americans were sympathetic with al-Qaeda’s attitude toward the U.S.

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  26. Poosh says:

    Should we bomb Iran to keep them from stringing up homos?

    Crumbs. When I read the word “homos” I thought “that seems homophobic” before coming to my senses. You cannot escape liberal propaganda, it gets in your head, even if you’re super-right wing.

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  27. Thrill says:

    The muslim terrorists who supported the 9/11 attacks are the same ones who deny Israel’s right to exist.

    Funny. I’m pretty sure most of them were radicalized Saudis, not Palestinians. And if part of the reason they attacked us was because of our support for Israel (and it was), then it seems pretty crazy that we ever inserted ourselves into that matter for no substantial purpose and ended up getting attacked on 9/11, doesn’t it?

    It’s almost as if senseless foreign policy has consequences.

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  28. Section8 says:

    Well said Thrill and I agree with your post. I think we are stuck in our old ways of old cold war nostalgia and cold war allies Israel and otherwise. This includes NATO as well. There is very little use or reason for us to have bases all over creation. It would be nice if we’d start reevaluating these arrangements. This doesn’t mean any animosity towards old allies, just that commitments change with time. Oh yeah, and we’re f’ing going bankrupt. Time to cut costs and liabilities were we can.

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  29. Poosh says:

    Watch Ron Paul’s words about foreign policy and the war on terror. As as a tool or compass, the exact OPPOSITE of every word that comes out of Ron Paul’s mouth in relation to foreign policy and the WoT matches reality.

    (WoT = which is a war against Islamic Theocracy, to be more exact. NOT terrorism, which is merely the tools they use for lack of tanks – it’s a war against an ideology NOT any group of given terrorists)

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  30. Poosh says:

    There is very little use or reason for us to have bases all over creation. … Time to cut costs and liabilities were we can.

    That would result in us Europeans having to pay for our own security …. and probably having to take Putin seriously.

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  31. Mook says:

    Funny. I’m pretty sure most of them were radicalized Saudis, not Palestinians.

    I’m pretty sure that you don’t have to be a Palestinian in order to oppose Israel’s right to exist

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  32. Thrill says:

    If the Coptic Christians were as effective as the Israelis in fighting terrorists, I would be in support of sending them arms.

    They’re a minority in Egypt. You would sustain such a group for no other purpose than to antagonize Egypt and its neighbors for a cause that has nothing to do with us? And then you’re amazed and angered to find that the Muslim world gets mad at us? These things happen for a reason, you know, and it isn’t that the Muslims are just evil.

    Israel’s efforts in fighting Islamic radicals makes the US more safe.

    I don’t see it. There’s zero reason to think that the Palestinians would be fighting us if Israel was out of the way. If anything, our support of Israel makes us less safe because it puts us against the majority of the population of the Middle East for no purpose.

    From one of your own linked polls:

    The assumption that it is a US goal to “expand the geographic borders of Israel” is a widespread view among most Muslim nations polled.

    Another such goal is “to push the United States to stop favoring Israel in its conflict with the Palestinians.” Eighty-seven percent of Egyptians, 63 percent of Indonesians, and 55 percent of Pakistanis said they agreed with this goal—as did 75 percent of Moroccans in late 2006.

    As far as the Muslim world is concerned, we are trying to enlarge Israel’s borders and the Muslims are pissed at us for it. Given that we can’t even explain why we’re doing that since it hardly benefits our foreign policy at all, their irritation is understandable.

    And no matter how pissed off they are about what we do, the question is whether or not they are a real threat to us. I say no and the existence or non-existence of Israel has no impact on the threat they present.

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  33. Mook says:

    (WoT = which is a war against Islamic Theocracy, to be more exact. NOT terrorism, which is merely the tools they use for lack of tanks – it’s a war against an ideology NOT any group of given terrorists)

    I agree with your comment about war against Islamic Theocracy, but it makes no sense to claim that we’re not in a war against “any group of given terrorists”. Al Queda and Hezbollah are both “groups” that we’re at war with. That they are driven by fanatical beliefs doesn’t change the fact that they are part of an organized terrorist organization at war with Israel and the West.

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  34. Thrill says:

    This includes NATO as well.

    Oh! Don’t even get me started on those ingrates….

    Thanks, S8.

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  35. Mook says:

    These things happen for a reason, you know, and it isn’t that the Muslims are just evil.

    There’s zero reason to think that the Palestinians would be fighting us if Israel was out of the way

    You’re quite wrong about that. Many many muslims are pure evil. It’s takes pure evil to celebrate with your family dancing in the streets over the 9/11 deaths. Israel is an excuse for their hatred and violence, nothing more.

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  36. Section8 says:

    That would result in us Europeans having to pay for our own security …. and probably having to take Putin seriously.

    I would think this would be a good thing. As far as how serious Western Europe takes Putin and other threats should be a up to the Europeans to decide in my opinion.

    What I don’t understand from many of my friends on the right here in America is this need to feel we have to protect everyone when many of these regions are more than capable of doing it on their own. Hell, the left have the same policy too at least in Washington. Obama send troops over to Australia because of the supposed growing China threat, and what does Australia do? They cut their defense budget. Well hell why not, if you can get the suckers in America to foot the bill spend your money elsewhere. They’d be stupid not to.

    US officials and former officials, speaking on a background basis, have said they suspect Australia is taking advantage of the US Marine deployment to Darwin to reduce its spending.

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  37. Poosh says:

    These things happen for a reason, you know, and it isn’t that the Muslims are just evil.

    It’s because of their religion, or how they widely interpret it in those parts minis the ability to be critical about it. So yes, it’s not because they’re evil. It’s because of the implications of their religion.

    There’s zero reason to think that the Palestinians would be fighting us if Israel was out of the way

    Yet many Muslims convert to Islamism across the word across the UK, and Europe and blow themselves up or murder fellow citizens, all in the name of Islam. There is every reason to think a % of the Palestinians would move their terrorism and hatred to whatever new target they decide on. I guess rather then be attacking Israel than London eh? Oh wait a minute….

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  38. Thrill says:

    It’s takes pure evil to celebrate with your family dancing in the streets over the 9/11 deaths.

    We had huge parades in 1991 for returning soldiers in the US after we killed tens of thousands of Iraqis for a war that wasn’t really our problem (damn the British and their post-colonial borders) and didn’t ultimately serve our national interests. You think there was any butthurt about that war and a belief that Americans are evil because of the Gulf War and the resulting sanctions? There was a great deal. It was one of OBL’s major non-Israel grievances.

    You can talk about how you think Muslims are fundamentally evil all you like, but a case can absolutely be made that America’s bumbling and sometimes antagonistic foreign policy with the Muslim world feeds the problem.

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  39. Mook says:

    What I don’t understand from many of my friends on the right here in America is this need to feel we have to protect everyone when many of these regions are more than capable of doing it on their own.

    I don’t see or read hardly anyone on the right (other than McCain) advocating that. I support our relatively modest contributions to Israel because it’s cheaper to have them do the necessary dirty work in fighting muslim terrorists, but I agree that we need to severely dial-down our military support of Europe, S. Korea and other countries who are more than able to do it by themselves.

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  40. Mook says:

    We had huge parades in 1991 for returning soldiers in the US after we killed tens of thousands of Iraqis for a war that wasn’t really our problem

    There’s a grand canyon sized distinction between killing Iraqis who invaded and slaughtered Kuwaitis vs. a murderous attack on innocent civilians on 9/11, wouldn’t you agree?

    It may not have been worth the cost for us to liberate Kuwait, but it wasn’t a targeted attack on civilians either

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  41. Poosh says:

    Section8

    Well it’s lots of reasons, as I’m sure you know the reason for american power and american bases is complex, rational and historical and every base has a different story. There are good reasons for heavy American presence in Germany, for example and multiple reasons at that – and there are probably good reasons to get rid of the bases and free up the money (it will just go on welfare btw. Military cuts NEVER result in less money spent). But really … have you seen Europe lately? It’s a clusterf*ck.

    America is our last best hope for peace (reference?) and from your point of view, yes, it probably is time Europe got its head out of its arse. But it will never happen unless Europe finds that spirit that made it so great once upon a time. But look at Greece. yeah, Greece, the country that probably more than any other country changed the human race and advanced it to a state of existence more than any other.

    One does forget European military… maybe you don’t forget, it will just annoy you actually. but European defence is entirely based around the existence of the US military and YOUR configuration. Not enough carriers because we know you’ve got them. Not enough heavy lifters because we know you’ve got them. You can go through the whole list. Hell, British soldiers have to go to US soldiers to “borrow” the right kit for them.

    We’re your senile father, and as our now-grown-up son …. you have pay for the care-home and meds.

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  42. Poosh says:

    I really don’t know where you’re coming from Thrill. If you’re ok with genocide in the Middle East, fine (the first Iraq War) – but I seriously doubt you’re happy with Saddam annexing huge swathes of land, a man who hated America (and was also mad), increasing whose power in the Middle East. He would not have stopped at Kuwait.

    A lot of those Iraqi soldiers the US killed were in the process of committing disgusting atrocities. Just so you know. Rape, torture. A lot of nasty stuff. So damn right America cheered the US soldiers who, you know, helped to stop that shit.

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  43. AlexInCT says:

    Alex, your comment comes down to us supporting Israel because we despise those screw-up Arabs.

    No it does not, Thrill. My comment basically is that given a choice between right and wrong, I side with right. No ambiguity. I knew the USSR and communism where evil and had no problem saying so, despite the fact that it caused me a lot of trouble with the usual apologist assholes, especially in academia, that defended that death cult. When I lived in South America Venezuela was a beacon of hope and democracy. I defended it and the culture. Today they are not even a shadow of what they were before. When I lived in the FE, I remember being flabbergasted at how Koreans, Japanese, Vietnamese, and Chinese, including the people from Honk Kong or Taiwan looked at the main-landers, all viewed each other as lesser people, for no obvious reason.

    I neither despise nor think Arabs are dirty. I said they were backward people, and that they blame everyone but themselves for their misfortune. I have spent a lot of time in Arab countries, and with a very few exceptions, practically everyone I interacted with where decent people. However, they all thought that they were superior to everyone else, even when there was no proof of that. And they were full of excuses for why nothing worked right. It was always someone else’s fault, too. About the only ME people I hold no sympathy for are Palestinians, and that is because they are the epitome of the stupid on this planet. Their plight is totally self inflicted.

    When there’s apparently no other reason for us to support Israel the way we do, I can see why Arabs would believe that to be the case.

    If Israel was not there for them to hate, these fools would be blaming the Christians amongst themselves for their problems and vowing to kill them. Once the Christians were gone, the different sects would turn on each other. Then when that was done they would find another excuse. Look at Lebanon for the microcosm. Israel is simply a convenient scapegoat. That is why I support them. I hate fucking bullies, and the Palestinians, and those that support them as if they are a civilized bunch instead of the death worshipping fucks they are, even though they do not have might on their side, are the bullies here.

    I support Israel for a simple reason: the fucking fascists, communists, and every other evil Jew hater group on the planet doesn’t. That and I hate stupid.

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  44. AlexInCT says:

    It’s not just that. I’m sick of the US having to support all of these stupid, unworkable borders that came about when the European powers couldn’t maintain their colonies anymore after WW2. Israel/Palestine is part of that.

    So lets stop supporting them, but if we do that, give them the freedom to do what they need to do to protect themselves. I am game for that. I bet you that will end the conflict in a flash. The fucking ungrateful assholes in Europe that have had the American tax payer pay to protect their interest and the other Jew haters will cry foul at first, but they will quickly demand all the fucking Arabs put down their arms once one or two cities of the Jew Hater nations are glowing in the dark and are glass.

    We’re not at war with Israel’s enemies

    We may not be, but way too many of them have not only been at war with us for 3 decades now, but have even killed people on our own soil. We can keep pretending that because most of the worshippers of Islam that we know are decent people that we don’t have a dominant minority – I remind you that most Germans didn’t want the war Hitler wanted but they got in it anyway once it started – that is definitely at war with us because they believe they need to convert us, enslave us, or kill us. Their holy book says so. We can ignore the threat at our own peril.

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  45. Thrill says:

    A lot of nasty stuff. So damn right America cheered the US soldiers who, you know, helped to stop that shit.

    And then what? We ended up having to leave thousands of US troops on Saudi soil, further pissing off the militants. We kept Iraq under sanctions, which OBL specifically named as a bone to pick with us.

    You want to know where I’m coming from? I’m saying that we American conservatives support some really poorly conceived and executed foreign policy initiatives for extremely questionable reasons. We need to think about why we do these things.

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  46. AlexInCT says:

    And then what? We ended up having to leave thousands of US troops on Saudi soil, further pissing off the militants. We kept Iraq under sanctions, which OBL specifically named as a bone to pick with us.

    OBL’s big bone to pick was that he was not the one in charge. All the rest was bullshit, smoke and mirrors to justify the power grab. The radicals in Islam aren’t that hard to figure out. They come in two varieties. The idiots that actually are stupid enough to believe the lies told by their masters, and the megalomaniacs that use Islam to further their ambition to lord it over everyone. The true believers do the dying. The masters want to do the ruling, even when they are not cut out for it. People like OBL have a lot in common with a narcissist like Obama: it is about the power. They may differ in application, but they are seprated by a thin line.

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  47. Thrill says:

    So lets stop supporting them, but if we do that, give them the freedom to do what they need to do to protect themselves.

    Of course. I’m perfectly okay with letting them do what they must as long as they don’t blow up anything that negatively impacts the US.

    Here’s the difference between us: I value Israeli and Arab lives equally. They’re all human beings. The thing is that I only give a fuck about them to the extent that they benefit or harm what’s good for America. They can do whatever they want to each other as long as they don’t get our people killed or break our shit. If it’s not our problem, I don’t want to make it our problem.

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  48. Thrill says:

    OBL’s big bone to pick was that he was not the one in charge.

    This is true, but you can only get so many people to die for you just for the sake of having you in charge. The grievances he attached to his cause did reasonate with the Arab world and they still do. What I’m saying is that where we actually are causing problems for ourselves and don’t need to be, we ought to…stop.

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  49. AlexInCT says:

    We had huge parades in 1991 for returning soldiers in the US after we killed tens of thousands of Iraqis for a war that wasn’t really our problem (damn the British and their post-colonial borders) and didn’t ultimately serve our national interests.

    Oh, bullshit Thrill. You equate a parade to honor our troops, for their sacrifices and their win, with fucking savages dancing in the streets and passing out candy, specifically because civilians where killed and the towers came down? Seriously? You remind me of the idiots that say America is evil because the founding fathers owned slaves, as if slavery wasn’t a common practice back then everywhere. Not to mention that the few places that still practice slavery today seem to share the ethnicity of the people complaining the hardest.

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  50. AlexInCT says:

    This is true, but you can only get so many people to die for you just for the sake of having you in charge.

    Hence the insane militaristic religion and the other excuses about occupied land and what not. Like I said: the true believers that do the dying are neither bright nor educated. It’s not a mistake that Islam considers education a bad thing, never to be allowed women, and to be restricted only to certain males, BTW. How else do you breed an endless army of fools ready to die for your megalomania?

    What I’m saying is that where we actually are causing problems for ourselves and don’t need to be, we ought to…stop.

    This is naive and stupid. They will find the excuse to suit the cause. Everything we do, and even what we don’t, will be twisted to suit the end goal. I have seen it first hand. These people are masters at deluding themselves.

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  51. Thrill says:

    Oh, bullshit Thrill. You equate a parade to honor our troops, for their sacrifices and their win, with fucking savages dancing in the streets and passing out candy, specifically because civilians where killed and the towers came down?

    If celebrating the deaths of thousands of people is barbaric, then can you at least acknowledge that Muslims may see it the same way when we do it?

    You remind me of the idiots that say America is evil because the founding fathers owned slaves, as if slavery wasn’t a common practice back then everywhere.

    Whatever the hell that’s about….

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  52. Thrill says:

    BTW. How else do you breed an endless army of fools ready to die for your megalomania?

    Well, I suppose that I would cultivate an atmosphere of fear, paranoia, and hatred and then direct it at a foreign enemy who I’ve totally dehumanised.

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  53. AlexInCT says:

    Well, I suppose that I would cultivate an atmosphere of fear, paranoia, and hatred and then direct it at a foreign enemy who I’ve totally dehumanised.

    In the ME, they don’t even need to work that hard at it. Not that they don’t. And the Palestinians are the front of the pack there.

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  54. AlexInCT says:

    If celebrating the deaths of thousands of people is barbaric, then can you at least acknowledge that Muslims may see it the same way when we do it?

    I have seen many a military victory parade, and I never recall any of those being done to celebrate the death of anyone, but the sacrifice of your troops. Some even happen without any victories or killing. TheSoviets, Chicomms, and Norks, had or have one annually. With the exception of your usual red pacifist, which I need to point out ignored those parades in the communist countries and their military muscle flexing all the time, everyone knows you do not do these things to celebrate the killing of others.

    If muslims choose to pretend that they see our parades to honor our troops – troops that have never fought under more insane ROEs to prevent collateral damage, even when it cost them far too much – as us celebrating the killing of muslims, they can kiss my fucking ass. The problem is with them. They are projecting their values on us.

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  55. Poosh says:

    And then what? We ended up having to leave thousands of US troops on Saudi soil, further pissing off the militants.

    Sorry this is basic “for any gullible westerner that will listen” propaganda. The only truth value in the claim is simply that they hate non-Muslim troops on what they believe is Muslim soil, and thus sacred. That’s it. Nothing to do with imperialism et al. And “then what”? well I guess you’d let Saddam continue raping and murdering then? Killing arabs which you’ve claimed to value (though I suppose you could have meant, do not value Israelis and Arabs that much equally). If the Israelis are rounded up and put back into concentration camps, you’d be ok with that right? cause, you know, “then what?” Note these “militants” seem to be fine with Muslim troops in other countries. And Muslim terrorists blowing up and killing innocent Muslim civilians. It has everything to do with their religion, not qualms which you think you can rationalise.

    We kept Iraq under sanctions, which OBL specifically named as a bone to pick with us.

    Again that was a minor issue but it was designed to confuse the easily confused minds: “Oh, we were attacked because it was us” and other absolute shit that people seem to think is valid. Funny Bin Laden didn’t send any planes into Saddam’s palace < the cause of the godamn sanctions.

    It's almost as if these terrorists don't always tell the truth when it comes to giving reasons for their actions.

    No one here is dehumanising an entire race or religion across the board. It's crap like that which signals that no discourse can be had.

    If celebrating the deaths of thousands of people is barbaric, then can you at least acknowledge that Muslims may see it the same way when we do it?

    What is at question here is the ethics and ability to grasp the reality. You’re engaging in cultural relativism – you are – which is shocking for a conservative. Cheering a parade of soldiers who stopped, say Hitler or Saddam, is a different act to cheering some religious fanatics who blew apart a building filled with CIVILIANS (the intended target, not collateral damage).

    Do you acknowledge that the, I’ll use the Nazi example as it’s very comparable, do you acknowledge that in WW2, NAZIS found the celebrating of the destruction of their army as barbaric? And that this is comparable (As seems to be your point, forgive me if I misunderstood).

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  56. Poosh says:

    No one here is dehumanising an entire race or religion across the board.

    eh apart from possibly Mook …

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  57. Thrill says:

    The only truth value in the claim is simply that they hate non-Muslim troops on what they believe is Muslim soil, and thus sacred.

    You’re coming closer to where I am. Yes, they get pissed off when we are on “their” soil. So we shouldn’t do it when we don’t NEED to, right?

    Killing arabs which you’ve claimed to value (though I suppose you could have meant, do not value Israelis and Arabs that much equally).

    Maybe I should have completed that thought with “but I value Americans much, much more.”

    It’s almost as if these terrorists don’t always tell the truth when it comes to giving reasons for their actions.

    The leaders don’t, no. Alex was correct about their motivations. However, Mook’s polls made it pretty clear why the populations of Arab countries have an anti-American streak in them and it’s reasonable to guess that our own policies cause that. A small amount of them do go on to become terrorists. Some of the cause is avoidable (blind support for Israel) and some of it isn’t (oil).

    If the Israelis are rounded up and put back into concentration camps, you’d be ok with that right?

    No, I’d be disgusted by it. I still don’t think it’s my nation’s job to jump into this shit. FDR certainly wasn’t in a rush to do anything about the plight of European Jews up until Hitler declared war on us, if we’re going to compare this to WW2.

    You’re engaging in cultural relativism – you are – which is shocking for a conservative.

    No, I’m not. I’m simply looking at it from a different point of view and encouraging others to do the same. I’m not saying anybody is any better or worse than we are, only that we can absolutely be perceived as worse depending on how you want to look at it.

    Do you acknowledge that the, I’ll use the Nazi example as it’s very comparable, do you acknowledge that in WW2, NAZIS found the celebrating of the destruction of army as barbaric?

    I’ll say that had the Allies lost WW2, FDR, Churchill, Stalin, and many other senior commanders would have faced war crime trials. Instead, the Germans losts so their guys did.

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  58. Poosh says:

    FDR certainly wasn’t in a rush to do anything about the plight of European Jews up until Hitler declared war on us

    To his shame. To our shame. To the world’s shame.

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  59. Thrill says:

    Seriously? Yes, the Holocaust was horrible and we’re all better off for the Nazis being beaten, but are internal human rights violations a stand-alone pretext for war? No way.

    Do we have to go to war with every wrongheaded country that brutalizes its own people? Permanent war for the sake of imposing our own notions of justice and fairness on the world? Not my country, no thank you.

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  60. Mook says:

    eh apart from possibly Mook …

    Fuck you Poosh. You have a problem with something specific that I’ve said, then have the balls and the courtesy to address me directly and specifically.

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  61. Mook says:

    Do we have to go to war with every wrongheaded country that brutalizes its own people?

    This is Ron Paul talking points nonsense to a tee. No, in fact we don’t need to do so, since you’ve asked. However, the muslim terrorists who have attacked us are part of the “wrongheaded” countries you mention, and they need to be dealt with as the enemy which they are.

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  62. Biggie G says:

    I know this isn’t a music thread, but I thought this was fitting. This one’s for you Thrill. : )

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  63. Thrill says:

    This is Ron Paul talking points nonsense to a tee. No, in fact we don’t need to do so, since you’ve asked.

    I was asking Poosh…

    However, the muslim terrorists who have attacked us are part of the “wrongheaded” countries you mention, and they need to be dealt with as the enemy which they are.

    I won’t argue with that, but Hamas didn’t attack us on 9/11.

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  64. Mississippi Yankee says:

    Thrill,
    I really, really didn’t want to comment on this post but the more I read your comments, excuses and justifications for the original topic I began to notice a stench of disingenuous bullshit. The very same sort of stench that we would see when ever someone whose self esteem was flagging decided to put up a post about “the hot topic” of the day. AGW was always a great comment generator.
    Has “I Hate Jews” become the new “Global Warming Global Warming”?

    Sorry Thrill but every one of your rebuttals has been a lackluster response to a subject that may have momentarily passed between your ears. But I ain’t buying it.

    Then on the other hand, and in a global world that is becoming smaller and smaller every day, but YOU have embraced isolationism?
    NIGGA PLEEZ! Not that it’s ever worked for this country for any extended period but ..whatever!

    The whole “we’re bankrupt” meme is pretty weak tea imo, the US has been bankrupt since WWI (hell they had to put on a tax for telephones to pay for the Spanish American War) with just a slight uptick in the early to mid 50′s. And what exactly are we sending them? They make their own weapons and ammo, they re-engineered the Patriot missiles into Iron Dome. Do we give them ‘moah’ money than the brazillion dollars we give Egypt, Libya, all of sub-Saharan Africa and every other “Mouse That Roared” {ORA}

    Fess up Thrill. I’m sensing stress. Are you suffering the winter doldrums, erectile dysfunction, your dog crapping blood? Get somebody to kiss your pee-pee and stop being a dilettante.

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  65. Thrill says:

    Then on the other hand, and in a global world that is becoming smaller and smaller every day, but YOU have embraced isolationism?

    No, I’m pretty much giving in to nihilism. You know what it is? I’m tired of being taken for granted and defending things out of habit. I’ve been having this same issue with tax rates on the rich. I’m tired of seeing heaven and earth get bent and the fiscal cliff being such an issue because we have to protect those assholes from paying more taxes. Fuck them.

    And I’m about ready to adopt the same posture on Israel. Fuck them too. Look at this thread. Why in the world do we get so emotional on this topic? How come this is such a sacred cow with this group? We stick our necks out for that little country and get virtually nothing in return. You know what? I’m sick of it. I’ll say it again: This is not the foreign policy that the Founders would have wanted us to have.

    And I didn’t bring up the financial side of it. I even acknowledged in an above comment that the monetary cost is low, which goes to show that you didn’t really read the comments and the bullshit you’re smelling is on your own upper lip.

    My concern is with the fact that we’re alienating the far more numerous Arab population of the region for no real good reason.

    But you’re right about one thing: This is something that has more recently occurred to me. I’ve been mulling it for a couple of weeks now. Like a lot of other conservatives, I’ve been considering our positions on things and whether we need to change anything and if so, what.

    I’ve always been a supporter of Israel and this feeling that we’re getting totally screwed on the deal bugs me. I would have loved it if someone on this thread could have pointed out something I was missing about why our relationship with that country is so important. Instead, I get a lot of the same kind of reflexive responses that I was wondering about in the top post. I’m now even more convinced that we’re being duped, honestly.

    Fess up Thrill. I’m sensing stress

    No more than usual. “Wound-Up Prick” is my factory setting.

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  66. Thrill says:

    This one’s for you Thrill. : )

    Good one, btw!

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  67. AlexInCT says:

    I won’t argue with that, but Hamas didn’t attack us on 9/11.

    No, but they sure wished they could have, and if they could do it, they would do it now.

    Then on the other hand, and in a global world that is becoming smaller and smaller every day, but YOU have embraced isolationism?

    Sorry to say I saw this too, Thrill. I liked Ron Paul, his fiscal policies rocked, but that was until I heard his foreign policy stance. Isolationism might have worked in the 19th century. I would figure the lessons of the 20th century however would have dissuaded anyone from the insane belief it was a worthy way to pursue foreign policy in our fucked up world. Especially now that not just nuclear weapons but advanced bio weapons are so easily obtained by every madman.

    America was isolationist at the opening of the 20th century. The state of transportation and the two oceans that bordered our nation, served well to keep others at bay. And yet we still got dragged into insane wars because others, left to their own devices would have posed a threat to our existence, sooner than later. You mention how we seem to be the ones paying for Europe’s defense for some stupid reason. That stupid reason came from Truman whom at the time decided the best way for the US and the world to avoid another conflagration, was to disarm the fucking war lovers across the globe that we could. We became the world police as a means to an end. Even today, you mention letting Japan or Korea go nuclear and to jack up their military force to counter China, or point out we should let the Germans rearm to deal with Russia, and you will see many, not just here in the US, but in Europe, go bonkers thinking what could all go wrong after that.

    We survived a nuclear armed world, with two super powers at each other’s throats. They limited their fighting to half hearted proxy wars, and both got a hard lesson when they directly involved themselves in the conflicts but were unwilling to use the brutal power needed to win. The fact of the matter is that we still managed, despite the many fuck ups, to avert a global conflict that certainly would have gone nuclear. I feared that once the Cold War ended, people would assume the world was a safer place. And they did. It is why we are in the shit we are today. The Cold War, while frightening – because it involved two nuclear armed opponents facing each other, with their fingers on a button that could have annihilated humanity, each jockeying for the upper hand – was a predictable situation. We knew the enemy and they knew us, and neither really wanted to risk annihilation, because they understood there would be no winner.

    Our new world is a mess. We never dealt well with the aftermath of the collapse of the USSR. Oh sure, we cleaned up their nukes and some of heir other weapons, but we never dealt with the human element. Even today we refuse to accept that the chaos that followed posed a far greater danger than the Cold War ever did. We are completely deluded into measuring the danger posed by an enemy based on old fashioned conventional military capabilities, and mostly refuse to acknowledge how dangerous even a single man, willing to die for a cause, and with access to WMDs can do. Pretending isolationism can thus protect us when in addition to conventional forces and weapons armed with WMDs we have to deal with individuals that do not operate within any acceptable and understandable purposes too, is the height of stupidity, IMO.

    And let me come clean. The real reason I despise the Palestinians is that I know they are another hold over from the Cold War and were made by the fucking Soviet expansionist war machine. Yasser Arafat was made and owned by the KGB. The anti-Israeli hate that the Palestinians feed on was created by the KGB so they could find idiots willing to become martyrs. Most people don’t even know that it was the KGB that gave the know how on bomb making and other such tactics as hijacking to Islamic terrorists. The KGB always believed that once the west fell they would just wipe out the Arabs and end that problem of their own making.

    Oh, I am sure many want to pretend we did the same with our aid to the Afghan rebels who fought the Soviet invasion, but these people are morons. What we did was to give them modern weapons, in particular stinger missiles, so they could deprive the Soviets of the key element that had given them the upper hand in that conflict: helicopters. How many stinger missile attacks on the west have we heard about other than that of TWA 800, which was buried by the Clintons, so they could win their second term election?

    Anyway, back to isolationism. Anyone advocating for that is not just insane, they are ignoring the world. How well have half hearted engagements worked out for Team Obama during the past summer uprisings? Yeah, full engagement like we did in Iraq didn’t work out too well either, but I blame that on the people amongst us who wanted that to fail, and did everything they could to make it so. Remember that our current enemy, the radicals, wants to control the world. Leaving them alone is not an option. In fact it smacks of stupidity. It’s like turning a blind eye to the crocodile eating its way towards you because you hope he eventually gets sated eating others. The problem is that he will get to you sooner than later. Besides, the reason OBL wanted us out of the ME was so they could take it over, not so they could then leave us alone, but as a stepping stone to taking the fight to us.

    The end goal of this enemy is to control the entire globe, or burn it down if they can’t. They plan to do it piece meal. And they will pretend to want peace, just so they can rearm and again get to a position of advantage, after every beat down, before resuming hostilities. Kind of like…. The poor and misunderstood Palestinians.

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  68. Section8 says:

    The whole “we’re bankrupt” meme is pretty weak tea imo, the US has been bankrupt since WWI (hell they had to put on a tax for telephones to pay for the Spanish American War) with just a slight uptick in the early to mid 50′s.

    Weak tea? Sorry man, but we are in run away deficit mode any way we want to cut it. I just don’t understand how domestic entitlement programs are bankrupting our country according to some of my fellow members on the right (which I would agree are a huge problem), while magically any money issues dissappear concerning entitlement programs for foreign countries in the form of defense (many of which the populace of those countries could give a shit about us either way). Reagan was smart to increase defense at the time he did, and it served its purpose, but it’s looking more and more defense is just like any other government program. My god we can never possibly cut back or hint at reevaluating the need for various parts of a program based on changing times and needs.

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  69. mrblume says:

    I have this beautiful post written that I’m not allowed to post for some reason, but I will try to get this link in here:

    Overwhelming majority?

    World Public Opinion: 61% of Egyptians approve of attacks on Americans
    32% of Indonesians approve of attacks on Americans
    41% of Pakistanis approve of attacks on Americans

    I love opinion polls. Here’s a fun one:

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/148763/Muslim-Americans-No-Justification-Violence.aspx

    Note the 27% of Catholics who support terrorism!

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  70. AlexInCT says:

    My god we can never possibly cut back or hint at reevaluating the need for various parts of a program based on changing times and needs.

    Are we going to consider the cost of us not doing this too S8? The reason the US has been unable to disengage from the world policeman role is simply that the actors behind this believe that the cost, to us, not anyone else, eventually will be much higher than what we are doing now, when someone else steps in to fill the vacuum. Do you want China, India, a remilitarized Russia, Japan, South Korea, Germany, France, or a coalition of countries including any of these actors as well as some others – such as South Africa, Brazil, or Vietnam – to be in charge of the world’s water ways? What happens when they start a shooting war that fucks up our interests this time?

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  71. Section8 says:

    What happens when they start a shooting war that fucks up our interests this time?

    I have no issue with a strong defense for our domestic needs, and I certainly don’t have any issue bombing the shit out of a country if they attack us, but the key word is IF. As far as someone starting a shooting war with us why would they? Are they going to rattle us enough until we fire off our nukes? No more than we are going to rattle someone else enough to fire off theirs. Also, it’s hard to sell ourselves as being an ally if our underlying intention is that we don’t want them to have any power. So which is it? Are we allies or simply occupying these places such as Germany and Japan to just keep them under control?

    My question to you though is based on history (I may have this wrong if so please correct me) every empire fell by over extending itself and collapsed from the inside with too many obligations and debt on its hands. If you’re worried about losing a war, we’re getting shelled on a daily basis from the inside. That keeps me up at night, because it’s happening now. It’s not a what might happen scenario. It’s happening now.

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  72. AlexInCT says:

    I have no issue with a strong defense for our domestic needs, and I certainly don’t have any issue bombing the shit out of a country if they attack us, but the key word is IF.

    Why do I get the feeling that every conditions you are setting with that “IF” – capitalized to emphasize it – is going to depend on what the letter next to the name of the person in the WH that is in charge then, more than anything logical, is Stogy? I am basing my concern on what I have seen over the last decade or so. For some reason the people that felt Boosh was the epitome of evil can’t even be bothered when Obama not only carries on his policies, but expands on them and starts more wars of his own. And there where way too many people that felt it was our own fault anyway and we should have done nothing too for my likes. Know what I am saying.

    And you will pardon me for not really liking the option you leave us: to respond to another attack, in the nuclear age. Look how much damage 19 idiots did on 9/11 with conventional means too. When we have to be perfect 100% of the time to spare our side from taking casualties, I am far more inclined to support any policy that takes the killing to them, and on their soil. Then again, I would also prefer a policy where we actually do some serious killing so they get that we mean it, and that if they push us, we will wipe them off the planet. Right now they know we will fight back. But they also believe that we are easy to manipulate and that they can use our own rules to restrict our responses, such that eventually they, whom have no compunction about killing us, will win.

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  73. Section8 says:

    Why do I get the feeling that every conditions you are setting with that “IF” – capitalized to emphasize it – is going to depend on what the letter next to the name of the person in the WH that is in charge then, more than anything logical, is Stogy?

    Don’t know why you’d get that feeling since the course of action with the IF would depend on the aggression of the attackers and not who is in the WH.

    For some reason the people that felt Boosh was the epitome of evil can’t even be bothered when Obama not only carries on his policies, but expands on them and starts more wars of his own

    Agreed Afghanistan should have been wrapped up long ago. Libya was just flat out bullshit. I have no clue why this administration is still pushing nation building. I really wish the guy in office now would not get a pass, but what gives the left an advantage in this country is that they require no standards of their guy, and I do think the right does over do it with adhering to standards on their own side.

    And you will pardon me for not really liking the option you leave us: to respond to another attack, in the nuclear age.

    The nuclear age is preventing major wars. I guarantee you Hitler would have went nowhere if he was surrounded by nuclear nations as is the case today.

    Look how much damage 19 idiots did on 9/11 with conventional means too.

    And this occurred even with having the largest military and bases all over creation, so clearly it takes a different method to prevent these sorts of things.

    When we have to be perfect 100% of the time to spare our side from taking casualties, I am far more inclined to support any policy that takes the killing to them, and on their soil.

    I have no problem with this. And who gives a shit if we’re perfect or not. We do have to get that crap out of our heads. It’s just that it should happen AFTER aggression is made on us or it is imminent it will happen. And again it involves us being attacked or under the immediate threat of it, not defense of some far off foreign countries with people I don’t know or care about for something the MIGHT happen. And the view of us from many of our “allies” isn’t all that high to begin with. We already invested enough over the decades with NATO. If someone else wants to be head world cop now let them. The liabilities are far greater than the reward.

    Then again, I would also prefer a policy where we actually do some serious killing so they get that we mean it, and that if they push us, we will wipe them off the planet.

    Sure, war should be few and far between, but when it happens we need to do whatever is needed to kill the threat in a reasonable manner to that threat and move on. We don’t do that now. We drag shit on forever, get into entanglements we don’t need to be in, which drains our treasury, and busts the morale of our troops. To keep a strong defense it would be a good idea to make sure people will sign up, but it becomes difficult if they think they’ll spend years in some shithole trying to fix something that can’t be fixed, while back at home people have forgotten about them long before the bumper stickers of I won’t forget washed away from their bumpers.

    So yes, I am fully with you on strike and strike hard, but we should be very limited on what is the reason to strike hard, and we should get in and get out, and we sure as shit don’t need to be tied with everyone elses regional problems, whether it’s the ME or Europe or Asia or anywhere else.

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  74. AlexInCT says:

    Don’t know why you’d get that feeling since the course of action with the IF would depend on the aggression of the attackers and not who is in the WH.

    Oops, my bad. I thought the post was from Stogy some insane reason S8. Sorry sir.

    The nuclear age is preventing major wars. I guarantee you Hitler would have went nowhere if he was surrounded by nuclear nations as is the case today.

    Oh, I don’t know about that. We still had conflicts during the Cold War as I pointed out. The whole thing didn’t go nuclear because the people that had them all understood it meant Armageddon. Now if you are an insane fuck that thinks Armageddon is how Allah will finally take care of business, maybe even magically save you so you can then run the show, nuclear war doesn’t much make a difference to you.

    And this occurred even with having the largest military and bases all over creation, so clearly it takes a different method to prevent these sorts of things.

    Actually 9-11 happened as a failure of intelligence, here at home, because of politics, and was not a failure of military capability. That’s a big discussion right there too, but I don’t think it pertinent to our current one. What that military capability did accomplish for us was to give us the option to take the fight to the enemy, on their soil, and thus spare us another attack at home.

    Sure, war should be few and far between, but when it happens we need to do whatever is needed to kill the threat in a reasonable manner to that threat and move on.

    The reason we are still dragging ass in Afghanistan and did such a piss poor job in Iraq with the nation building, is because we forgot that you win wars by killing as many of the enemy as you can until they simply can’t resist anymore. We are too busy trying to be liked rather than being feared.

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  75. CM says:

    I would have loved it if someone on this thread could have pointed out something I was missing….

    I permanently have that sense (that I’m missing something) when reading the right on Israel. I keep assuming people are holding back on the really convincing stuff.

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  76. mrblume says:

    You remind me of the idiots that say America is evil because the founding fathers owned slaves, as if slavery wasn’t a common practice back then everywhere.

    Wow, moral relativism. Didn’t expect to see that one from you. Of course, next opportunity you’ll still call Muhammad a pedophile. Of course, saying that the founding fathers couldn’t be expected to do the right thing considering “their environment” doesn’t at all mean you’ll need to extend that same understanding to drug dealers or Palestinians. Who needs intellectual consistency.

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  77. mrblume says:

    Don’t worry about Europe!

    The notion that continental Europeans, who are world-champion haters, will let the impoverished Muslim immigrants they confine to ghettos take over their societies and extend the caliphate from the Amalfi Coast to Amsterdam has it exactly wrong.
    [...]
    When Europeans feel sufficiently provoked and threatened – a few serious terrorist attacks could do it – Europe’s Muslims will be lucky just to be deported.

    http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/item_2XNALFhqs62vpCrD3HcasJ

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  78. stogy says:

    I want to see a strong, independent and democratic Israel. The settlements and the constant need to feed the military machine have a corrupting and destructive influence on Israeli society and politics. This is pretty much what my Israeli friends have told me.

    I want to see the same of Palestine. The occupation only feeds radicalism in the West Bank, destabiliizes the Middle East, and allows a bunch of corrupt dictators an instant get out of jail free card with their own people. This is pretty much what my Palestinian friends have told me.

    We’d have a better chance of getting both if the US would become an even broker in the peace process.

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  79. stogy says:

    Alex, I answered your previous comment on the earlier Palestinian thread – the one where you accused me of lying about the recognition of Israel as a Jewish state. Just in case you missed it. :)

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  80. AlexInCT says:

    Alex, I answered your previous comment on the earlier Palestinian thread – the one where you accused me of lying about the recognition of Israel as a Jewish state. Just in case you missed it. :)

    I guess I will have to go back and see how you parsed that one. Or did you just change the Wiki entry?

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  81. Iconoclast says:

    I realize I’m late to this party, but consider this from the other end, so to speak. We used to have two allies in the ME, the second being the Shah of Iran. Of course, we all know the history there. The Shah was accused of human rights violations, he was a puppet, etc., so Carter, the liberal who was so concerned with human rights, cut off US support of the Shah, the Shah fell from power, and the Ayatollah Khomeini rose to fill the vacuum. So now, we have a militantly theocratic. Iran which refers to the USA as “The Great Satan”, where we had a staunch, anti-Soviet ally before.

    Do we really want to risk a repeat performance? If Israel should fall, does anyone really think the militant Muslim world would be satisfied with that, or merely emboldened by it?

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  82. AlexInCT says:

    I realize I’m late to this party, but consider this from the other end, so to speak. We used to have two allies in the ME, the second being the Shah of Iran. Of course, we all know the history there. The Shah was accused of human rights violations, he was a puppet, etc., so Carter, the liberal who was so concerned with human rights, cut off US support of the Shah, the Shah fell from power, and the Ayatollah Khomeini rose to fill the vacuum. So now, we have a militantly theocratic. Iran which refers to the USA as “The Great Satan”, where we had a staunch, anti-Soviet ally before.

    I am certain most people, including many amongst the one’s here, do not know that there were many people around the globe in the intelligence communities that were actually at first happy that the Ayatollah managed to steal the Iranian revolution from the KGB backed movement that was behind it. The point is that there wasn’t a single one of those famous “revolution of the people against a tyrannical leader” during the Cold war that was not a KGB staged and run one. The Ayatollah turned out to be one hell of a problem, though, but in the end most preferred that to another Soviet satellite state in the area.

    I need to mention that it has always pissed me off how the left was quick to scream about everywhere and anywhere they could blame us/the CIA, whether true or imagined, for a counter revolution. Evil United States is again thwarting the will of the people! Fucking idiots the lot of them. But calling out the KGB? Fuck we only had them making excuses for or denying politically motivated mass imprisonments or murder. Be it by Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Ho Chi Min, Castro, or any other fucking collectivist scumbags they still pretend meant well. Even today, they pretend they never carried water for these monsters, while simultaneously trying their best to convince you these guys were not all that bad. After all we won the Cold War! That usually said with a look that leaves no doubt they feel the wrong side won.

    Mark my words too. Obama will go down in history as the second coming of Carter. Another democrat president that turned allies into enemies. It will start with Egypt, but I now am convinced it won’t end with just Egypt. Talk about out-Cartering Carter.

    Do we really want to risk a repeat performance? If Israel should fall, does anyone really think the militant Muslim world would be satisfied with that, or merely emboldened by it?

    The error in your logic is assuming that the left sees this as something bad or detreimental to their agenda.

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  83. CM says:

    I want to see a strong, independent and democratic Israel. The settlements and the constant need to feed the military machine have a corrupting and destructive influence on Israeli society and politics. This is pretty much what my Israeli friends have told me.

    I want to see the same of Palestine. The occupation only feeds radicalism in the West Bank, destabiliizes the Middle East, and allows a bunch of corrupt dictators an instant get out of jail free card with their own people. This is pretty much what my Palestinian friends have told me.

    We’d have a better chance of getting both if the US would become an even broker in the peace process.

    So true.
    I also want to see a strong, independent and democratic Israel. I think their current policies and actions undermine that.

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  84. Thrill says:

    According to one of Mook’s linked polls, another major grievance the Muslim world has against the US is that we are seen as trying to keep the Muslim world divided. That’s one of those things that’s pissing them off, but I don’t think we should stop. After all, it’s in our interest to keep the Arab countries divided and avoid the super-Caliphate.

    Here’s a problem though: Israel and the mutual hatred of it gives them something to agree on and unite over. Worse, they end up hating us by extension. Is this contradictory in our foreign policy?

    Understand that I’m not saying we have to keep from pissing off the Muslim world. It’s going to happen even when we make correct and rational policy choices. My opinion is that those choices should make sense and not be based on sentimental rather than long-term strategic reasons.

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  85. Section8 says:

    We’d have a better chance of getting both if the US would become an even broker in the peace process.

    Might help if the Palestinian leadership didn’t align themselves with fundamentalist nutcases who wish for our demise. Of course there’s always an excuse. The only difference between Alex and the left is he sees these folks as vicious animals that can’t help themselves while the left thinks of them more like pets who can’t help themselves.

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  86. Mississippi Yankee says:

    Here’s a problem though: Israel and the mutual hatred of it gives them something to agree on and unite over. Worse, they end up hating us by extension. Is this contradictory in our foreign policy?

    So you’re saying this “support” we give Israel is stirring up the whole muslim hornets nest but…

    Understand that I’m not saying we have to keep from pissing off the Muslim world. It’s going to happen even when we make correct and rational policy choices. My opinion is that those choices should make sense and not be based on sentimental rather than long-term strategic reasons.

    What :support” exactly would you withdraw from our 64 year ally? Perhaps our president can refuse to meet him when their PM comes to Washington? Maybe we can weaken, to the point of a coup, a neighboring nation of Israel that had a working truce with them? How about we do everything, even unconstitutional things like Libyan support, to unite the Muslim Brotherhood in all of North Africa?

    Would this quench your frustration because a few right-thinking people wave Israeli flags and pledge moral support?

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  87. mrblume says:

    The only difference between Alex and the left is he sees these folks as vicious animals that can’t help themselves while the left thinks of them more like pets who can’t help themselves.

    No, there’s a difference. We generally believe they can be redeemed. Because they can. It’s science.

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