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Some real perspective.

In Hal’s post titled Hamas and Israel, round 47, we got in a pretty heated discussion with the moralizers that seem to have a beef with Israel fighting back. At issue was the fact that the LSM immediately accused evil Israel of killing babies, while either using insane and twisted logic to justify their criticism or completely ignoring the fact that the Hamas worshipping death cultists in Gaza were lobbing hundreds of missiles daily at Israeli civilians. As those of us that knew better expected, it turned out that the indignation by the Jew haters in the west was based on damned and staged lies. Even when there are actual civilian casualties on the Palestinian side – according to the LSM there never are civilian casualties on the Israeli side, and certainly not innocent civilian casualties, because evil and powerful Israel is an occupier and a bully – those of us that are able to view this conflict without the bias coloring the view of your average enlightened leftist, know these people were purposefully put in harms way by their own leadership to score cheap points.

This conflict is neither complex nor difficult to comprehend: it is insane. On one side you have a bunch of tools that are being used by the Nazi influenced Arab world and have spent the last 7 decades being turned into death worshippers that refuse to back off their holy charter of driving all the Jews into the sea and exterminating Israel. On the other you have a nation that has offered everything short of its own extinction up to reach an insane and imposed compromise, only to be rebuffed, repeatedly, being held to impossible and ever changing standards. It is insane. Israel is expected to basically tie its hands behind its back and bare its throat to these monster that want to exterminate its people.

That so many in the west, under the pretense of just holding Israel to a high standard, as several of the pro-death worshippers posting in Hal’s comment section told us, demand Israel be perfect or do nothing is not a coincidence. It is a strategy; deprived of the ability to respond, one can only logically conclude that the agenda here is to handicap Israel until it falls. Before you try to argue otherwise, consider a revelation from this article about the Iron Dome missile defense system and what it really says:

Except, here’s a true story: Back in mid-June, during the great Paris weapons show, the Rafael pavilion was absolutely the busiest around, and everybody wanted to look at the new, exciting, Iron Dome system, the greatest achievement in rocket defense ever. But by the end of the show, Rafael hadn’t made a single sale. The Arrow sold well, other systems did great – Iron Dome wasn’t moving. So they contacted their big clients, the serious ones, and asked what gives. And those clients told them no one except Israel has any use for these things. Because in any normal, sane country, if some hooligans were to start targeting civilians with rockets – the army would go and kill them.

Emphasis mine. Yeah, sure, these people demanding Israel be perfect, or do nothing otherwise, really are doing it out of higher morality. Not because they want to prevent Israel from being able to defend itself or protect its citizens, with only one possible outcome following that line of thinking. Everyone knows that the bad people are the ones like me that do not want to accept the moral equivocation that pretends barbarians on a genocidal quest should be given a pass, while a civilized nation gets told to die a death by a thousand paper cuts, because the issue is “complex”. Right. Their demands Israel do the impossible is not about higher standards: it is about crippling Israel’s ability to defend itself. It is the same phenomenon that we saw when the left imposed impossible ROEs on US military forces in the hopes it would lead to a loss both in Iraq and Afghanistan when the WH was not occupied by a person with an (R) next to their name. These people do not give two shits about the victims they pretend to cry for. It is about fucking over the people they don’t like. No other country in this world would tolerate what Israel is being told to. The real moral question here is why this is so.

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  1. Thrill says:

    …as several of the pro-death worshippers posting in Hal’s comment section told us…

    Oh, THIS is going to be good!

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  2. Section8 says:

    Just an idea for a thread. It would be nice to have one where people would post what they would do if they were almighty dictator, that being neither side and no country had any say in the matter, what would each and every one of us do. Everything from boundaries, who goes where, who will be displaced, and what do do with Jerusalem, and state why you would do it.

    It is a complicated issue. I can understand the Palestinian side. Here you had a territory that was majority Arab or non Jew, that got cut in half. I don’t know, it seems to be a human response world wide that people seem to have an issue getting kicked out of their house. Don’t know why, but it happens.

    On the other side, you have the Jews who also need not be kicked out of their houses, but with the end of British control was going to end up in a civil war at some point because you have two opposing religious groups fighting over the same holy lands.

    The UN drew up some mapping to try to resolve. It didn’t work.

    Now today, you have a recognized state that is under constant attack, and you have people living in camps pissed off over decisions made before they were even born.

    No, I don’t agree with the tactics of the Palestinians, but they do have a complaint that I see as valid. Now don’t get me wrong, I don’t think the Arab neighbors give a shit much of these people as they are pawns in all this and you do have leaders in some of those Arab countries that egg on the death to Israel bullshit, and there are leader groups like Hamas that also parrot this, but at the end of the day no one is going anywhere, so I think the better topic for discussion would be how would anyone resolve this and why they would? Otherwise these threads end up in the same never ending senseless never ending battle of who should be allowed to attack whom we see going on over there and no one here is going to change their view on that.

    For me I see a more productive discussion being talking about things such as.

    Do you think the people in the territories should be shipped to Syria? Why?

    Do you think the Jews should be pushed into the ocean? Why?

    Do you think it should be cut right down the middle? Why?

    Do you think a Jewish state should have been created somewhere else? Like maybe part of Germany for war reparations? Why?

    Do you think It should be all one country run by the UN? Why?

    Hell I don’t know there are lots of possibilities. I’m not saying it has to be a great one or completely realistic given the culture differences, distrust, and the ability to make both sides not go after one another and certainly not the UN to be able to step in and solve something of substance, but in your world what would you do?

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  3. Thrill says:

    I suppose that if I’m The Dictator on the Palestinian side, I keep doing exactly what they’re doing now. Like it or not, it’s working, more or less. They’re getting their funding and arms to a limitless degree from the chessmasters in Tehran in elsewhere and they always end up with international sympathy regardless of the provocations that lead to reprisal.

    There’s really no “lose” scenario for the Palestinians, since they’re clearly willing to take casualties. Israel’s neighbors are becoming increasingly radicalized. Formerly friendly (relatively) governments in Egypt and Turkey are a thing of the past. The Iranians are nearly to their nuclear goal, which is going to make them untouchable. Syria is plunging into chaos.

    At some point, Israel will be surrounded by hostile, radicalized governments supplied with the best arms the Russians can sell (and at least one nearby neighbor with nukes) as the US sees its influence weaken with military cuts and war weariness taking over at home.

    The Palestinians are playing a long game and they will win. I stay the course if I’m in charge.

    If I’m the Israelis, I go totally Evil Dictator. Saturation bomb any neighborhood from where attacks come, deport the survivors, colonize the cleansed areas, and defy anyone to stop me with my nuclear arsenal at the ready.

    I’m not saying that’s what I favor now or what I think is right, but Israel is running out of time to deal with an insoluble problem. Once the Palestinians are gone, they may become a pariah but everyone will quietly agree that it’s all over and Israel will eventually recover some standing in the world.

    Yeah. Make me the Dictator and I go full Nazi on this. I denounce myself.

    Do you think the people in the territories should be shipped to Syria? Why?

    Do you think the Jews should be pushed into the ocean? Why?

    Whichever side I’m on, I say “yes”. I think it was Ralph Peters who once pointed out that when it comes to establishing permanent peace, “population transfers work”. It’s harsh, it’s horrible, it’s inhumane….but it does bring peace even if it’s the peace of the graveyard.

    Do you think it should be cut right down the middle? Why?

    No. The Palestinians are too invested in the concept that they are dispossessed and that the land is theirs by right. They cannot step away from that and can accept nothing less than the removal of the occupiers.

    Do you think a Jewish state should have been created somewhere else? Like maybe part of Germany for war reparations? Why?

    No, mostly because this would have happened regardless of where they went. Keep in mind that the Jews established their state there because that’s where they wanted it. I’m of the opinion that putting it somewhere else would not have stopped the Jews from moving into Palestine after WW2, given that they would not have wanted to remain in Germany at the doorstep to the Iron Curtain. Keep in mind that the Nazis wanted to send the Jews to Madagascar or somewhere else before the Holocaust got going, but it didn’t work out. The Jews have a historical attachment to that land and they’re dedicated to owning it.

    Do you think It should be all one country run by the UN? Why?

    I’m sorry. I cannot seriously answer that. No. Just….no.

    So that’s it. The situation cannot be solved except through brutality. The Palestinians are more willing to engage in the brutality it will take to solve it and time is firmly on their side. Israel must either abandon their own humanity and permanently lose the sympathetic status they’ve had since WW2 or accept destruction. They can’t win.

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  4. Poosh says:

    As I said in the other thread, anti-Semitism is a timeless feature of humanity that seems to have been with us since the first Jews, it is perhaps inexplicable. I always remember the Jews being blamed as the German bombs blitzed London – a sobering historical point.

    But in a post-holocaust world it is VERY hard to express anti-Semitism in the west (though with Jews being the victims of hate crimes more than all others, we can see it starting to rise again): but anti-Semitism was never rejected, merely put under the rug with a “my, we don’t want another Holocaust, do we?” This Palestine/Israeli conflict has been the lynch pin for westerners to express, and find an outlet for, their latent anti-Semitism without being branded one or being seen by the popular culture as one – many aren’t even conscious of what is truly motivating their bizarre irrationality when it comes to this issue (as Alex points out ). (Muslims, Middle-Easterners etc did not experience the Holocaust in the manner we did, so are openly anti-Semitic, and only restrained when talking to a Westerner) As a so-called self-hating Jew, and bracketing out standard stupidity or political liberalism, one can understand his/her desire to be loved by the “herd” and find respite from the hatred that s/he detects under the surface.

    But when Israel is gone, and it will be one day I think, the Jews will find themselves subject to a final, third, holocaust. They won’t have a place to make a final stand this time, they’ll be in the same position as pre-WW2.

    Kudos to Obama, I suppose, for taking the right stand (even though it’s entirely inconsistent with everything else he’s done in the past) at least he said the right things now.

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  5. mrblume says:

    The two state solution was the favored approached because it was the most sensible and realistic one. We’ve been pretty close in the past. Whatever other impediments the two-state solution is facing at the moment, one of them is the simple fact that the current Israeli government is not interested in one.

    It’s perfectly comprehensible why the Israeli public has shifted to the right over the last few years, but that’s the way it is.

    If I were a dictator? I’d suppress all dissent from those on the right who are intent on preventing a solution by blocking on fake issues like right to return (irrelevant in practice), recognition as a Jewish state, obstinate settlers, or even some stupid holy sites. In a couple decades, no one will care about a couple percent of land one way or the other (although with the religious stuff, who knows. Religion makes people a lot more unreasonable than they already are).

    Do you think a Jewish state should have been created somewhere else? Like maybe part of Germany for
    war reparations? Why?

    I always liked that idea, and there is a book with a great title to go along with it.

    Kudos to Obama, I suppose, for taking the right stand (even though it’s entirely inconsistent with everything else he’s done in the past) at least he said the right things now.

    This really is a great litmus test. If you are surprised by Obama’s stance, it’s a sure sign that partisanship has clouded your view on political reality before. You should take corrective action for the future. Or, another option would be to continue straight ahead and argue that what we are seeing is indeed proof of Obama’s antisemitism, given that he’d rather hop around in Asia in a time like this, etc and so forth.

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  6. stogy says:

    Hi folks,

    It has been a while. Apart from my brief post last week. Not sure if I’ll come back regularly, this might just be a one-off.

    I just wanted to make a quick comment on the attitudes to Palestinians expressed here. I have spent a considerable amount of time in Israel and the West Bank, in Jerusalem, Haifa, Tel Aviv as well as Ramallah and Bethlehem, and I count both Palestinians and Israelis as my friends. None of them are terrorists or extremists. None of them support either Hamas or the Israeli right wing government. I have never been to Gaza, and I cannot comment on the people who live there or the conditions under which they live.

    Some of my Israeli friends have told me this week that very few Israelis outside of the radical right wing government support the bombing campaign. There is a widely held view not being reported in the Israeli and international media (Alex’s LSM) that says that Israel has taken out the one person who could have arranged a more permanent ceasefire, and right on the eve of him doing so. The Israeli attacks are instead undermining Fatah and Abbas in the West Bank, and strengthening the hand of Hamas in Gaza. I can only conclude that Netanyahu knows this, as he is no fool. He is playing Hamas, and very well too. It’s not the first time that Hamas have been pushed into a futile war which no-one thinks they can actually win. Netanyahu knows that the longer the conflict can be sustained, the deeper the settlements can be driven into East Jerusalem and the West Bank, furthering the goals of the religious fundamentalist right in Israel. Abbas misses out on his UN proposal, which Israel is strongly opposed to. Netanyahu also gets a nice election bump. The only problem for Netanyahu is that the Israeli community are not rallying behind him as expected (again, not much in the LSM). About 2/3 of Israelis are reported to be against any ground invasion.

    Hamas likewise are playing their hand – destroy Abbas and the largely corrupt Fatah, build their own power base in Gaza, and extend into the West Bank. Abbas doesn’t get his largely symbolic low-level UN recognition. They know the rocket attacks are not working, and that they are unlikely to work, with Iron Dome successful. It just has to be enough to spread a little uncertainty in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. There is little direct risk from launching the rockets, as they are now launching rockets remotely, so that whatever comes back at them is unlikely to cause significant casualties amongst their own fighters. Use civilian casualties to build support amongst Arab nations, and to isolate Israel. Rinse and repeat. If Hamas stop the attacks, they lose. A ground invasion would be just perfect – particularly if Israeli casualties end up higher than the country is willing to stomach. It’s a cynical and sick way to use your own population for your own political goals.

    So there you have it: Right wing Israel and militant Hamas playing each other perfectly. I think they even know they are doing it, underneath all the rhetoric. Neither side has much interest in solving the conflict, when it meets both of their needs so well. The biggest losers, as always, are the Palestinian civilians caught in the middle.

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  7. Thrill says:

    Well, I for one am glad to see you, stogy. Your firsthand insights into this issue are helpful and I think you’ve got a pretty good assessment of it there.

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  8. balthazar says:

    he biggest losers, as always, are the Palestinian civilians caught in the middle.

    You had a good post going until this, so what your saying is screw the Israeli civilians cought in the middle?

    whatever.

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  9. Thrill says:

    A point on that, Balthazar: The Israelis at least have Iron Dome. NOBODY is looking out for the Palestinian people. Certainly not their “government”.

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  10. stogy says:

    Balthazar, I agree that Israelis are also caught in the middle. However, given the super ineffectiveness of the rockets from Gaza, I don’t think they could legitimately be described as the biggest losers.

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  11. Section8 says:

    Interesting perspectives.

    mrblume, I appreciate your response, because I was interested in what the left have to say regarding a solution, while I don’t agree with everything at least you stepped up with some honest straight forward answers regarding your views.

    Whatever other impediments the two-state solution is facing at the moment, one of them is the simple fact that the current Israeli government is not interested in one.

    The current government, perhaps I don’t know. I do know Israelis made efforts in the past though and the Arabs had no interest, so after a while the Israelis as screw it. Of course while I can understand that it still does not solve the issue. This I think will go back an forth until an outside force puts a stop to it. Hence my if there was a world dictator…

    In the end for me, I think lines should go back to the original mapping, there should be two states, and thin international buffer zone in between for a while until everyone calms down.

    Jerusalem should be left International, or flip a coin.

    And of course still none of this may work.

    It has been a while. Apart from my brief post last week. Not sure if I’ll come back regularly, this might just be a one-off.

    Stogy, just come back for Christ’s sake. If you don’t like the swearing and mean spiritedness you can always ignore posts like mine. I always liked what you had to say.

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  12. Thrill says:

    In the end for me, I think lines should go back to the original mapping, there should be two states, and thin international buffer zone in between for a while until everyone calms down.

    That’s all dandy for us and our interests, but why should Hamas want that when they can eventually have it all? There’s no peace because there’s nothing in it for them.

    I think we make a mistake when we assume that everyone wants the same map that we do.

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  13. stogy says:

    Thanks Section 8. I’ll think about it. I left mainly because Alex couldn’t be bothered to defend some pretty stupendously weak assertions on climate change, and I felt like I was wasting my time being here. But it’s nice to see some old ‘faces’ still here.

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  14. Kimpost says:

    I think that the only possible solution lies somewhere in a two state solution. The two countries need to be acknowledged by each other and then they need to learn how to co-exist next to each other. The 1967 borders should be the starting point for setting up borders that are reasonable to both parties. If Israel for safety reasons or what not just can’t go back to 1967 borders, then they’ll need to resolve that with land swaps.

    If I was the dictator of Palestine, I’d shift tactics immidiately. I’d acknowledge Israels right to exist without conditions. I’d do that even if the Israelis didn’t give me anything. Then I’d order my people to go ahimsa on the conflict. Just go out everyday. Climb the wall. Dig under it. Force the Israeli forces to shoot you and your unarmed children. Civlized democracies can’t win fights like that.

    If I was dictator of Israel I’d recognize Palestine immidiately. No strings attached. I’d roughly base the borders on what they looked like in 1967″. Where there’s land we just can’t give up, we’ll offer fair land swaps. Make it known that you intend to work with the Palestinians and an international body to form a permanent two state solution.

    A long term buffert zone will have to be set up. I’m sure some kind of international force could handle that.

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  15. Kimpost says:

    Hamas can be marginalized.

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  16. stogy says:

    I would support a two-state solution as well. Certainly the West Bank Palestinians deserve better – they have largely toed the line with the Israeli government for a decade and have absolutely nothing to show for it. The settlements have to go in return for giving up the right of return. The only questions are what to do with the settlements. And giving the right to Arab Israeli citizens to remain as Israeli citizens if they so choose – and not be horse traded for other settlements without their permission.

    That’s all dandy for us and our interests, but why should Hamas want that when they can eventually have it all? There’s no peace because there’s nothing in it for them.

    True. But the same goes for the West Bank settlers: ‘Why not drive all the Palestinians over Jordan river and have all of the land that God’s land for ourselves?’ There are at least a dozen members of the Knesset who actually want this and are working towards it. They are supported by Jewish fundamentalist settler communities whose attacks on both Christian and Muslim Palestinians in the West Bank should also be considered terrorism: burning villages, defacing mosques and churches, uprooting olive orchards, emptying the whole clip at a Palestinian village at night before heading in for the night…

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  17. Thrill says:

    How? As long as they’re being funded by parties that want to see the conflict going, they will hold political power.

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  18. Thrill says:

    Well, there’s no shortage of sons-of-bitches on either side.

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  19. stogy says:

    A few links before bed (I am no longer in Japan btw).

    From the Likud Charter;

    “The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river. The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel’s existence, security and national needs.”

    Pretty tall odds on establishing an independent Palestinian state with all that. Particularly when the Israelis will limit the water supply (as they do now).

    Attacks on Christians and Churches in Israel/Palestine (The American Conservative)/

    I do want to point out that I am NOT anti Israeli or anti Jewish. I am anti-fundamentalist in whatever form it takes. (I now live in a country now where fundamentalist Buddhism has caused huge problems). I consider myself pro-Israel, pro-Palestine.

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  20. AlexInCT says:

    The two state solution was the favored approached because it was the most sensible and realistic one.

    Not according to Hamas or the Palestinians that elected them. They want Israel gone. Be it in one great genocidal swoop, or peacemeal through the right of retrun where it will take them a little longer to kill of the Jews.

    We’ve been pretty close in the past.

    That is an absurd lie. What we were close to was the realization that if only one side wants a solution while the other is hell bent on genocide, the two state solution isn’t viable.

    Whatever other impediments the two-state solution is facing at the moment, one of them is the simple fact that the current Israeli government is not interested in one.

    After that fucking nonsense, I guess you will tell me that the problem with Nazi Germany was that the allies wouldn’t let Hitler have what he needed too.

    Fucking insane.

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  21. AlexInCT says:

    A point on that, Balthazar: The Israelis at least have Iron Dome. NOBODY is looking out for the Palestinian people. Certainly not their “government”.

    Why do the Israelis need Iron Dome, Thrill? I am certain that given the choice, the Israelis would have invested the effort and money in something else, preferably non-military too.

    And the case can be made that Iran is looking out for the Palestinians. It keeps sending them weapons and rockets so they can keep killing the Jews and then get more of their own people plastered in response. Great friends there. of course, if the Palestinians really wanted peace, they would tell Iran to F-off.

    That’s all dandy for us and our interests, but why should Hamas want that when they can eventually have it all? There’s no peace because there’s nothing in it for them.

    I think we make a mistake when we assume that everyone wants the same map that we do.

    ^^THIS^^

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  22. Thrill says:

    Iran is looking out for their own national interests, not of the common Palestinians. None of this is good for them. I disagree with the idea that Palestinians are all evil lunatics and members of Hamas. A lot of them probably just want to go to work and support their families like poor slobs all over the world.

    But….they’re being used and put in the crosshairs. No matter who “wins” this round, their lives get no better. We can acknowledge that fact without weighing in on which side is right or wrong.

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  23. CM says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  24. CM says:

    There is a widely held view not being reported in the Israeli and international media (Alex’s LSM) that says that Israel has taken out the one person who could have arranged a more permanent ceasefire, and right on the eve of him doing so.

    That’s what I’ve read too. If things were the other way around, you just know what the conspiracy theorists on this blog would do.

    Hours before Hamas strongman Ahmed Jabari was assassinated, he received the draft of a permanent truce agreement with Israel, which included mechanisms for maintaining the cease-fire in the case of a flare-up between Israel and the factions in the Gaza Strip. This, according to Israeli peace activist Gershon Baskin, who helped mediate between Israel and Hamas in the deal to release Gilad Shalit and has since…

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israeli-peace-activist-hamas-leader-jabari-killed-amid-talks-on-long-term-truce.premium-1.478085?block=true

    Awesome post stogy – in a single post you make 10 times more sense than 106 posts in the previous thread.

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  25. Thrill says:

    So why didn’t you mention it, you Jew-hating bastard?

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  26. Thrill says:

    God, I can practically hear the keyboards clicking away. Why’d you have to go and throw out that flamebait on a perfectly rational discussion, CM? This thread is screwed.

    Bad form, my friend.

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  27. Hal_10000 says:

    Did you guys see the report earlier about Hamas killing suspected collaborators?

    http://www.chron.com/news/crime/article/Hamas-kills-suspected-collaborators-with-Israel-4053262.php

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  28. CM says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  29. AlexInCT says:

    For the two state solution to work, Hamas and the Palestinians will have to accept Israel’s right to exist. So far we have seen ZERO chance of that to happen. Yeah, we have gotten lies and lip service, but the truth is they are doing that for the useful idiots amongst us to have an argument that this solution is viable. The end goal remains to destroy Israel. That means that ANY and ALL talk about a two state solution is a colossal waste of time.

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  30. Thrill says:

    I can only assume you’re joking, given Alex’s opening post. You should re-read your first post again. How is it “good” when Alex does it, but “bad form” when I mention it?

    I was joking when I called you a Jew-hating bastard, of course.

    However, I thought Section 8 did a good job of reframing the discussion early in the thread. We got great input from stogy and nobody was flaming anybody.

    I can understand if you get pissed off by the editorial tone some of us have, but how are you going to bitch us out for not having serious, topical discussions and then join in on the flaming? Stogy made points you agreed with and he wasn’t blasted, was he. He was begged to come back to posting more often.

    At least wait until you’re insulted before getting into flamewars if you’re going to condemn the lack of reasonable discourse, bub.

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  31. AlexInCT says:

    Wow, a hint of a reasonable discussion on this issue (perhaps once people start ignore Poosh and Alex’s diarrhea, lame and juvenile name-calling, and utter refusal to see any genuine dispute it IS possible).

    Coming from an anti-semitic tool like you I consider this a badge of honor. As I have pointed out: pretending we can have a rational discussion when one side is hell bent on genocide and won’t step back from it, makes discussing a two state solution as usuful as a discussion about how many angels can dance on the head of a needle: a stupid waste of time.

    Did you guys see the report earlier about Hamas killing suspected collaborators?

    There are no innocents or civilians, and anyone that works with the people they want to exterminate deserves nothing but death.

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  32. Section8 says:

    Wow, a hint of a reasonable discussion on this issue

    Well CM, based on your ensuing posts it looks like you’re hell bent on putting an end to that. Congrats. Also, Jim doesn’t sell violins here, you’ll have to go elsewhere.

    Kimpost and mrblume at least took the time (at the risk of how do you put it? No matter what you say will be used against you) to post how they would handle the situation and their views of how to do it which by the way is pretty much in line of some of us right leaning people here. The fundamental difference in disagreement as to WHY these solutions have not happened . You still have offered nothing because well you’re CM.

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  33. CM says:

    I was joking when I called you a Jew-hating bastard, of course.

    Oh I knew that. You’re no idiot.

    However, I thought Section 8 did a good job of reframing the discussion early in the thread. We got great input from stogy and nobody was flaming anybody.

    Oh I see, after the intial flaming. And the fact that Poosh brought up his whole anti-semtism bullshit, after calling me an anti-semite in the other thread. So apart from the ongoing mindless flaming, there was no flaming. Until I said something not even close to an equivalent. But yeah, kudos to Section 8 from leaving the mindless bullshit he previously wrote behind him.

    I can understand if you get pissed off by the editorial tone some of us have, but how are you going to bitch us out for not having serious, topical discussions and then join in on the flaming?

    I get pissed off when people launch into personal attacks on me for saying nothing even remotely controversial, and then mostly because people don’t criticise people on their own side for posting pure shit (e.g. calling me an anti-semite). Kimpost made the same point. It’s so fucking clear that a lot of people here who are seemingly intelligent and reasonable let others get away with whatever they like, but call us on the lamest thing all the time. The flamers are actively enabled and even defended (see Iconoclasts posts in previous thread). So it rings very very hollow for you to have an issue with me here. If you have an issue with flaming, try commenting on posts from people like Alex and Poosh which are FAR more abusive and ridiculous than anything I’ve ever posted. Even just once. Rather than saying “Oh, THIS is going to be good!”.
    This place is SO much better since you started authoring posts and joining in. But I really wish you and some others would call Alex and Poosh and any others on their bullshit sometimes, rather than leaving one or two of us to do all the heavy-lifting.

    Stogy made points you agreed with and he wasn’t blasted, was he. He was begged to come back to posting more often.

    I said nothing controversial in the other thread and yet screeds were written about what I apparently think. Froth was literally spewing out of mouths onto keyboards.
    It’s interesting to hear Stogy has mentioned Alex as the reason why he went away. That’s the second time in a short period of time that Alex’s rampant, neverending bullshit drove someone away (and not some lefty either). Again, when do some of your guys start calling him on it? If more than one good poster from the right has been driven away by his shit, isn’t that a good reason to start taking some action? You don’t even have to be accused of doing the bidding of a whining lefty tard.

    At least wait until you’re insulted before getting into flamewars if you’re going to condemn the lack of reasonable discourse, bub.

    Ah ok, “several of the pro-death worshippers posting in Hal’s comment section” didn’t include me then. Phew! I’m sure that’s news to Alex though.
    I AM going to condemn the lack of reasonable discourse, and it’s becoming clear to me that the people that make it unreasonable are never given any reason to do anything else.

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  34. CM says:

    For the two state solution to work, Hamas and the Palestinians will have to accept Israel’s right to exist.

    I totally agree that the Palestinians have to accept Israel’s right to exist. Do you agree that Israel would have to accept the the right of a Palestinian state to exist, and would have to stop building settlements in disputed territory before their claim to want peace could be taken seriously?

    Coming from an anti-semitic tool like you I consider this a badge of honor. As I have pointed out: pretending we can have a rational discussion when one side is hell bent on genocide and won’t step back from it, makes discussing a two state solution as usuful as a discussion about how many angels can dance on the head of a needle: a stupid waste of time.

    Yep, that’s precisely the lame and juvenile name-calling I was talking about. Right on cue.
    Alex, what have I said that shows you I’m an anti-semite? Calling someone an anti-semite is a sure sign you’re not interested in a rational discussion. How do you not recognise that?

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  35. CM says:

    Kimpost and mrblume at least took the time (at the risk of how do you put it? No matter what you say will be used against you) to post how they would handle the situation and their views of how to do it which by the way is pretty much in line of some of us right leaning people here. The fundamental difference in disagreement as to WHY these solutions have not happened .

    I’m totally on board with Kimpost’s comments. The current state of affairs is no good for Israel in the long term. But Israel holds virtually all the cards in this. If they want things to keep going (for the reasons Stogy lays out) then that’s what will happen.

    You still have offered nothing because well you’re CM.

    That’s ridiculous – I offer comments all the time. In that last thread I was faced with such an alalanche of horseshit (including by you) that it became impossible to respond to it all (Not to mention a complete waste of time). It was like a mob scene from a Simpson’s episode.

    I’m not looking violins, just pointing it out.

    I emailed a link to the last thread to a Jewish friend in the US who just could not believe what was written. I had to then apologise for how upset he felt after reading it. I wouldn’t have sent it to him if I’d known (I was suggesting maybe he could join in as I’d given up). He’s no peace activist. Fortunately, as I pointed out, the thoughts expressed by many on that thread are such a tiny minority for a reason. It’s largely just the Likud Party, and some right wing Americans. And that’s about it. And for good reason.

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  36. Poosh says:

    I’m confused as to why people are proudly saying “I support a two-state solution”.

    No shit sherlock.

    The Palestinians are constantly the cause of their own woes. I would not allow land taken from so-called Palestinians by Israel as the fair spoils of war to be given back UNLESS similar land was “given back” by fellow arab states, the non-Palestinian inhabitants kicked out. accordingly. But the spoils of war – wars israel did not start – are perfectly fine. Unless you want Europe to take over that entire area. Seeing as that was Christendom’s land first.

    I cannot remember Stogy’s calibre, the name rings a bell but I forget. Glad he pointed out the problem of Zionism (actual zionism) and certain settlers but the current government has proved, if I remember, that it is happy to uproot them in the name of peace. Much of what he has said from personal experience is not the story told by others. I think you should note that when your civilian population is bombarded by rockets there is massive economic damage and civilian deaths amongst the Israelis are low because they have built shelters and are not being used as human shields. I am suspicious, Stogy you claim that Israel ration water in the Palestinian Territories but this as far as I am aware is a false claim, often spread by Socialists, to smear Israel. The air of truth is that Israel does ration water due to the CLIMATE, and in addition, Israel has offered and allowed for constant water production et al for the Palestinians, whose governing bodies – PA i think usually – simply do not carry out due to incompetence. Your description of the of the Israeli PM seemed legitimate at first until I realised there are plenty of Jewish commentators who would disagree with you and your account. But at least you were polite.

    The vast majority of perceived injustices inflicted on the Palestinians by Israel are caused by the simple fact that the Palestinians – in whatever guise – keep on trying to kill Jews (The wall, blockade, etc. etc). They keep doing it. The blood lust and hatred (resentment at being defeated, twice by Jews), something a westerner finds hard to understand (and tries to rationalise using his own western premises) is too strong. If the Palestinians did, somehow, rise up against themselves and Hamas etc and simply just get on with things, and prove to the Israelis that they just want to build a nice little capitalist social democracy, there would be no problem. They’ve have to go without some things for a while (like an army) but eventually the Israelis wouldn’t care if Palestine had nukes (as we wouldn’t care if Japan or Germany, today, have nukes).

    But that’s not the power relation in the ME. In reality Israel has got its back against the wall.

    What is easy to forget is that many of the civilians in Palestine are forced, by Hamas and their neighbours. Whilst many are indeed savages and barbarians, there are many who are simply going along with things out of fear – fear of getting a bullet in the head by Hamas etc. So when Israel comes to bulldozed your houses for hiding weapons, you’ll lie to western camera man – Some are lying because they’re islamists and want the Jews to die, others are doing it out of fear. And we’d probably all do exactly the same.

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  37. CM says:

    Hamas can be marginalized.

    They can, but as Stogy points out:

    The Israeli attacks are instead undermining Fatah and Abbas in the West Bank, and strengthening the hand of Hamas in Gaza.

    The moderates are weakened by what Israel is doing.

    I don’t think the Likud Party is beneficial to the sustainable future of Israel. I think they undermine the future of Israel. I don’t think ongoing settlement building is positive for the future of Israel (I choose this example because all the other measures Israel takes can be sold as ‘defensive’ – the blockade, ). I’m far more interested in securing the future of Israel than killing yet another assortment of Palestinian arsehole fucktards, who score a 0.175% hit rate on killing Israelis. As Stogy says, that just helps two groups with narrow interests.

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  38. Iconoclast says:

    The flamers are actively enabled and even defended (see Iconoclasts posts in previous thread).

    This coming from someone who implicitly compared us to Adolph Hitler — no flaming there. Had it not been for the Hitler reference, I might not have felt compelled to “defend the flamers” as you would have it. For my part, I simply and repeatedly pointed out that the destruction of Israel is still a goal of Hamas, in spite of that goal’s allegedly being removed from their charter. And I provided links to back me up.

    Also for my part, I’m getting fed up with being demonized for being on the right of the political spectrum, and for all of the “scientific studies” that “prove” my “intellectual dysfunction”. Like I said before, you win, CM. Obama got re-elected, the USA is entering (or should I say continuing?) her irreversible decline into irrelevance, conservatism is being marginalized on all perceivable fronts. The fate of the ME is in God’s hands, not a single self-appointed expert here — myself included — has a damned thing to say or do about it.

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  39. Poosh says:

    Oh I see, after the intial flaming. And the fact that Poosh brought up his whole anti-semtism bullshit, after calling me an anti-semite in the other thread.

    Saw my name, can’t let this lie. Didnt’ read anything else you wrote, don’t really need to. As it’s classic CM.

    First of, this “anti-Semitism bullshit” is MY opinion and I think I have made a good case, for fellow conservatives and libertarians to read, as to why Israel is treated so disgustingly by various quarters. This is a psychological and philosophical point I make, and I think it’s of interest to many of us here on the right. I don’t think it’s a big coincidence that entire swathes of all populations are so eager to lay into Israel – a state made mostly of Jews – and fabricate a narrative where Israel is some sort of oppressor. I offered an explanation. You don’t like it, well of course you don’t. I don’t care.

    Secondly, you’ve actually just stated that I, tribal member Poosh, called you an anti-Semite. Which just shows why i think you’re a worthless piece of dreg, and a liar. Let’s quote you again! Just to drive it home:

    And the fact that Poosh brought up his whole anti-semtism bullshit, after calling me an anti-semite in the other thread.

    Now, it’s not like this was months ago, this was yesterday when YOU YOURSELF expressed faux-confusion over me NOT calling you an anti-semite. Do you want me to quote you, you stupid lying f*ck?

    Why on earth would I not be subject to this? You’ve made up the rest, so why on earth would you decide to draw the line somewhere?

    - CM, November 18, 2012 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm (UTC -5)

    You know, because I specifically didn’t call you an anti-Semite and stated I have no evidence you are one. … the exact opposite of calling someone an anti-Semite. You know, feck you, I’ll quote what I wrote:

    Obviously I do not think I can say if CM is an anti-semite or not, because many people are not anti-semites, – the chances are, he’s not – so one rationally could not accuse him of such, as I did not see evidence.

    – Poosh

    This isn’t a slip of your mind or memory, you clearly understood I was not calling you an anti-Semite, so you’re just throwing in some lies, hoping you won’t get caught with your hand in the cookie jar. Given I ignore what you write most of the time, Zeus knows how many lies you’ve slipped in about everyone, hoping for some sympathy. Yes in the last last Israel thread, which I’m happy to pull up if you want, you dumb turd, you insinuated I was a racist, and called me racist multiple times due to your inability to read what I wrote or understand context. I put that behind but I didn’t forget that. You couldn’t read black and white, you latched on to calling me a racist because, well, you need to frame us as racists so every opportunity eh? We’re all white-supremacists, who don’t like brown people, especially ones who don’t believe in the Christian god eh?

    But yeah, kudos to Section 8 from leaving the mindless bullshit he previously wrote behind him.

    I’d like to speak for myself but also Section 8 and tell you to go frakk yourself, you walking anus.

    Everyone else, sorry to lower the tone, but like Israel, I didn’t fire the first shot: sometimes you can’t let things go unanswered.

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  40. Thrill says:

    . The flamers are actively enabled and even defended (see Iconoclasts posts in previous thread). So it rings very very hollow for you to have an issue with me here.

    Alex and Poosh don’t make any apologies for the flaming and they don’t complain about the lack of discourse. They think you’re wrong and they’re going to mix it up. You do complain about the lack of reasonable discourse (which I think is laudable), but then you go and egg on the flaming (which makes you look silly).

    This place is SO much better since you started authoring posts and joining in.

    That’s nice of you to say. But I hope you understand that whatever positive impact I have on conversations is because of the way I choose to treat commenters even when they disagree with me and even when I question their intelligence and motives. I’m not above having a nasty flamewar, I just know that I can make my points without doing it.

    If you have an issue with flaming, try commenting on posts from people like Alex and Poosh which are FAR more abusive and ridiculous than anything I’ve ever posted.

    Again, I have no issue with flaming. I’ve indulged in it, um, a couple of times over the years. And when it comes to condemning Poosh and Alex, I can only say that I’m not the Thread Police. RTFLC has always been a rough-and-tumble forum.

    I don’t want to tell you how to live on the Web, CM, but you don’t have to answer every single insult with an insult. Flaming is a way of tearing you down without having to respond to your ideas. It’s a fair tactic. Quit falling for it.

    Even just once. Rather than saying “Oh, THIS is going to be good!”.

    Yeah, probably a dick move on my part to be stirring the pot. I thought we were going to get directly to the flamewar and I was just going to sit back and watch. I didn’t expect the good quality discussion that happened before you had the chance to come in and dutifully respond to the obvious flamebait in the way you eventually did. Again: Not telling you what to do, but you don’t have to let other people manipulate you so easily. I actually think you’re a stand-up guy, CM, but you do some weird things on here.

    I AM going to condemn the lack of reasonable discourse, and it’s becoming clear to me that the people that make it unreasonable are never given any reason to do anything else.

    Fine. Then let’s quit making this about you and get back to it. I was enjoying this thread and don’t want to see it totally derailed.

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  41. Thrill says:

    I’m far more interested in securing the future of Israel than killing yet another assortment of Palestinian arsehole fucktards, who score a 0.175% hit rate on killing Israelis.

    Now, I claimed above that Israel is more or less doomed. I can’t think of any reasonable concession they can make that will ever stop the enmity from the Palestinians or the radicalized populations in Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia, and the Gulf States that fund Hamas.

    What is your vision for Israel if they follow, say, Kimpost’s advice and accept Palestinian statehood with zero conditions. Do you genuinely believe that there will be peace from the other side?

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  42. CM says:

    The Palestinians are constantly the cause of their own woes.

    Some people on both sides are to blame. But the power to change the dynamic lies with the Israelis more than it does with the Palestinians. Hamas etc could stop their ineffectually and sparodic rocket-attack and nothing would change for the majority of people in Gaza (40% of whom are refugees, mostly living in refugee camps, from families in pre-1948 Palestine that had lived there for millennia). Settlement building would continue, the occupation would continue, the Israeli terrorism would continue (see the examples given earlier).

    The air of truth is that Israel does ration water due to the CLIMATE, and in addition, Israel has offered and allowed for constant water production et al for the Palestinians, whose governing bodies – PA i think usually – simply do not carry out due to incompetence.

    Link?

    The vast majority of perceived injustices inflicted on the Palestinians by Israel are caused by the simple fact that the Palestinians – in whatever guise – keep on trying to kill Jews (The wall, blockade, etc. etc). They keep doing it.

    The vast majority do nothing of the sort. And the ones that do have killed a small number of Israelis (not saying that even a small number is acceptable, just pointing out that perspective is important). The Israelis kill more Palestinians in a single campaign than have died by rocket attacks into Israel over 18 years.
    That you can’t even view injustices as anything other than “perceived” demonstrates your inability to consider this subject rationally. Palestinians cannot work about a third of its land. And I don’t need to invent your opinion on these matters (like you do to me) or call you names. That’s right there in your post. No cherry picking or misrepresentation required.

    The blood lust and hatred (resentment at being defeated, twice by Jews), something a westerner finds hard to understand (and tries to rationalise using his own western premises) is too strong.

    40% of the people in Gaza are refugees, mostly living in refugee camps. The vast majority don’t have the luxury of blood lust and hatred, they’re too busy trying to stay alive. Half of Palestine is also young. Apparently about ten percent of Palestinian children in Gaza under 5 have had their growth stunted by malnutrition. A recent report [pdf] by Save the Children and Medical Aid for Palestinians found that, in addition, anemia is widespread, affecting over two-thirds of infants, 58.6 percent of schoolchildren, and over a third of pregnant mothers.
    Again, what you have is theory. Then there is reality.

    If the Palestinians did, somehow, rise up against themselves and Hamas etc and simply just get on with things, and prove to the Israelis that they just want to build a nice little capitalist social democracy, there would be no problem.

    Again, that’s your theory. There is no evidence to believe this. The Likud Charter says the opposite. Settlement building suggests the opposite. This is why you’re a distinct minority on all this. You don’t seem to accept a considerable amount of reality, because it clashes so badly with your theory.

    In reality Israel has got its back against the wall.

    Nonsense. In no sense is this true. Israel is infinitely more powerful than Palestine and always will be. Peoples with their backs up against the wall don’t continue occupations and engage in continual settlement building within occupied areas. Israel has all the power here. By contrast, the power of the Palestinian’s is demonstrated by their hit rate with rocket attacks.

    What is easy to forget is that many of the civilians in Palestine are forced, by Hamas and their neighbours.

    With so many in Palestine being refugees, they are reliant on anyone able to feed them. And vulnerable to them. That’s the role Hamas plays in society there – they are, to the majority of Palestinians, a social welfare organisation who provide basic services on the street corner. If you’re only trying to survive, are you going to care that they also launch ineffectual rockets into mostly unpopulated parts of Israel. No, you’re not.

    Whilst many are indeed savages and barbarians, there are many who are simply going along with things out of fear – fear of getting a bullet in the head by Hamas etc. So when Israel comes to bulldozed your houses for hiding weapons, you’ll lie to western camera man – Some are lying because they’re islamists and want the Jews to die, others are doing it out of fear. And we’d probably all do exactly the same.

    Would you ever entertain the possibility that the lie is that weapons were in the house?

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  43. Thrill says:

    Ah, much better!

    With so many in Palestine being refugees, they are reliant on anyone able to feed them. And vulnerable to them. That’s the role Hamas plays in society there – they are, to the majority of Palestinians, a social welfare organisation who provide basic services on the street corner. If you’re only trying to survive, are you going to care that they also launch ineffectual rockets into mostly unpopulated parts of Israel. No, you’re not.

    THIS is exactly why I say that Hamas has absolutely zero investment in peace. The funding that they get for the services that you’ve described (and I think you’re absolutely correct on it) is provided by the same people who are interested in also seeing them keep pressure on Israel. The Palestinians don’t have Israel’s back to the wall, true. But the Muslim nations of the Middle East certainly do. Hamas is just a finger on the hand that’s pushing them.

    Yes, they do a lot of good. Hell, Al Capone used to give out free turkey dinners in Chicago during the holidays and for the same reasons Hamas provides social services. It doesn’t mean Capone was a good guy, just that he knew how to win the support of the community.

    Hamas has the money, the clout, and the support of its people. Why negotiate with Israel, really?

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  44. Poosh says:

    The Palestinians don’t have Israel’s back to the wall, true. But the Muslim nations of the Middle East certainly do. Hamas is just a finger on the hand that’s pushing them.

    I assume this is alluring to what CM wrote, which I just scroll over, but one can easily presume he didn’t understand what I wrote concerning Israel having limited power in the ME in contrast to, well, you’ve said it right there. The people of Palestine, whatever they may be, are at the end of the day, pawns for the Islamists.

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  45. AlexInCT says:

    I totally agree that the Palestinians have to accept Israel’s right to exist.

    Then why do you continue to offer them any sort of support knowing they plan to do nothing of the sort CM?

    Do you agree that Israel would have to accept the the right of a Palestinian state to exist, and would have to stop building settlements in disputed territory before their claim to want peace could be taken seriously?

    Maybe I am dense and uninformed, but I think that when Israel came to Camp David, back when Slick Willy was president some 13 years ago, prepared to sign the two state solution, that they accepted that two state solution? The only country right now that isn’t just paying lip service to the two state solution is Israel. And for that they are being told they need to give even more and keep tolerating the genocidal barbarians that refused multiple deals because the end goal remains the extermination of Israel.

    And no, I do not want Israel to stop building in “disputed territory”. They won that land fair and square when the fucking Arabs attacked them and tried to exterminate them. So far they have given back and given back and given back. Egypt got the Sinai. Syria and Lebanon got land back. Even the damned death cultists got land back. Yet the death worshippers and their Arabs masters still refuse to even acknowledge Israel exists, let alone accept that she is there to stay. If the Palestinians can fire rockets off to kill innocents, the Jews should be able to build housing for people to live in. What a contrast there too, huh?

    Yep, that’s precisely the lame and juvenile name-calling I was talking about. Right on cue.
    Alex, what have I said that shows you I’m an anti-semite?

    The double standard where you demand Israel keep bending over and make excuses for the murderous death cultists, maybe? I don’t know, but if I kept telling you that Hitler did good things too, really wasn’t such a bad guy, and just got a bum deal from his stupid neighbors, you wouldn’t take me seriously. In fact you would accuse me of being a Nazi. Substitute Lenin, Stalin, Pol Pot, any of the Kims, and s forth, and the left keeps doing just that: defending the indefensible. The left does the same for some ungodly reason for the Palestinians, whom I should add are amongst Hitler’s biggest fans.

    Calling someone an anti-semite is a sure sign you’re not interested in a rational discussion.

    If it walks, like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like aduck, you would be remiss not to think you are dealing with a duck. When you keep contorting yourself to pretend you are just balanced and that this situation is complex, while defending the Palestinians and pooh-poohing Israel for everything, you will forgive me for drawing that very logical conclusion.

    How do you not recognise that?

    Why would I want to have a discussion with people that are not honest enough to even admit that as long as the Palestinians refuse to give up their quest for genocide this entire exercise is a waste of time? Doubly so when in addition to purposefully ignoring this crucial element, they continue to demand perfection from Israel, or that it takes its lumps and asks for more, pretty please, while pretending the problem isn’t totally and solely the Palestinians.

    If you want to discuss how we beat the Palestinians into accepting this two state solution being bandied about, and believe me nothing short of them understanding that it is this deal or their extinction will get them to the table to negotiate in earnest, then I am your man. Short of that I am going to just limit my participation to pointing out that pretending that the problem is not one sided and will not be solved if we keep letting the death worshippers win in the media and by limiting Israel’s ability to defend itself, sure as hell sounds like you want Israel to lose here. You might not feel that makes you anti-Semitic, but is sure as hell does.

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  46. Thrill says:

    I figured that’s where you were coming from, Poosh.

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  47. Poosh says:

    Hey! At least Mussolini got the trains to arrive on time, eh ?

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  48. Thrill says:

    And Hitler built the Autobahn!

    Look, Hamas obviously does a lot for the Palestinian people that nobody else is, but if anyone wants to try and convince me that they have anything to gain by the peace process….that’s going to be tough. I don’t see anything in their organizational behavior to indicate that they want this and I don’t even see why it’s good for them strategically.

    Show me where I’m wrong.

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  49. CM says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  50. Poosh says:

    The Taliban did a lot for the Afghan people as well… maybe we should neg… oh wait

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  51. Thrill says:

    Poosh and Alex brought up Hitler and Nazi’s before I did.

    [/sigh

    I’m not going to slap anybody’s fingers for being mean to anyone else or violating Godwin’s Law. It’s not my place.

    If you’d like to respond to my points, I’ll give you the rational discussion you keep saying you want. But if you keep up with the insult fight carried over from another thread–that you keep saying say you do not want–then I’m going to quietly exit this thread and leave you to it.

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  52. Poosh says:

    I really don’t know what CM said, probably lying as usual, but I didn’t call anyone here a Nazi. I described the Palestinians as Nazi-like which is an accurate description given how the average Palestinian kid is brought up. That isn’t an insult but allures to the anti-semitism and Nazi practice of brainwashing children at a young age. This is all pretty obvious stuff of course.

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  53. Poosh says:

    If you’d like to respond to my points, I’ll give you the rational discussion you keep saying you want.

    good luck with that.

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  54. CM says:

    I’m not going to slap anybody’s fingers for being mean to anyone else or violating Godwin’s Law. It’s not my place.

    If you’d like to respond to my points, I’ll give you the rational discussion you keep saying you want. But if you keep up with the insult fight carried over from another thread–that you keep saying say you do not want–then I’m going to quietly exit this thread and leave you to it.

    Not asking you to slap fingers, I was pointing out that Iconoclast applies different standards to different people (in addition to his misrepresenting).

    I’m not going to simply let misrepresentations go (ok I did in the other thread because I was overwhelmed by the sheer number of them).

    Again, I’m not requesting Thread Police. Act as an individual. Kimpost and I asre suggesting that some people here might come across as more even-handed if they criticise people other than Kimpost and mrblume and I all the time. There is plenty of legitimate criticism to be leveled at some on the right here. Don’t enable obvious bullshit by standing by.
    Just a suggestion. Feel free to ignore it.

    Yeah Poosh, you were right, it was Alex that outright called me an anti-semite. You skirt around it.
    Looking at your comments though, why can’t you outright call me an anti-semite? What is stopping you? You claim to know all about motivations of people like me, you describe it in detail. Why do you say “the chances are, he’s not”? Please explain. I’d be interested to know.

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  55. Thrill says:

    good luck with that.

    Yeah. The last comment he just gave was more of the same.

    Out.

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  56. Poosh says:

    Such bullshit CM. I “skirt around it” by saying you are probably not an anti-semite and there is no evidence that you are one. Fuck off. You’re a liar and you knew perfectly well what you were doing, don’t sit there pretending you thought it was me. Nobody is that fucking stupid. You got caught lying. Now you’re … skirting … around it.

    You want to know why I think you’re probably not an anti-Semite? Occam’s razor. The fact that you’re just an idiot is a far more likely explanation than latent jew hating.

    And look here, CM is upset because he doesn’t think the abuse he is rightfully getting is “proportional” and he’s seeing double standards where there are none. Typical liberal. And he wonders why he’s so messed up when it comes to the Israeli/Palestine conflict.

    Now I’m defo gonna stop reading your bullshit, even if you mention my name. I realise that responding to your bullshit just makes things worse, and I’m feeding the troll (you’re the troll btw) so I’ll just stop.

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  57. Poosh says:

    There is a widely held view not being reported in the Israeli and international media (Alex’s LSM) that says that Israel has taken out the one person who could have arranged a more permanent ceasefire, and right on the eve of him doing so.

    Stogy is talking about a terrorist mastermind and murderer, by the way.

    The idea that he’s some sort of peace broker is from what I can tell a joke, hilarious wishful thinking concerning a man who enjoys Jews dying. Ahmed Jabari was in fact coordinating the rocket ideas in Gaza. But he’s the man to negotiate peace…

    As a general rule prove time and time again, Islamists/Jihadists only engage in cease fires in order to buy time and rearm etc. Their words are empty.

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  58. CM says:

    Yeah. The last comment he just gave was more of the same.

    I agree. it’s pointless continuing.

    Back to the echo chamber then.

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  59. Thrill says:

    Waaaaaait…were you deliberately trying to kill this thread?

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  60. stogy says:

    Do you agree that Israel would have to accept the the right of a Palestinian state to exist, and would have to stop building settlements in disputed territory before their claim to want peace could be taken seriously?

    Israel doesn’t want its right to exist to be recognised. It wants its right to exist as “the Jewish state” recognized. I happily recognize the former, but with Christian, Muslim and Bahai minorities, not the latter.

    And CM has a point: LIkud won’t recognize a truly independent Palestinian state – only limited self government. It’s in their charter, remember?

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  61. Section8 says:

    That’s ridiculous – I offer comments all the time. In that last thread I was faced with such an alalanche of horseshit (including by you) that it became impossible to respond to it all (Not to mention a complete waste of time). It was like a mob scene from a Simpson’s episode.

    Well I clearly explained what I was getting at with my horseshit but whatever.

    I emailed a link to the last thread to a Jewish friend in the US who just could not believe what was written. I had to then apologise for how upset he felt after reading it. I wouldn’t have sent it to him if I’d known (I was suggesting maybe he could join in as I’d given up)

    Can anyone spot the blatant contradiction in this story? I would think you would have apologized when you sent it and would have given fair warning, but then again you didn’t know so how could you apologize in advance, but then somehow you did know because you had given up. Something tells me this friend of yours won’t ever show up just like all those posts on other blogs where the left got on your ass because you’re to the right of them. All fantasy when called out on it. Who knows though, maybe I’ll be wrong on this one.

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  62. Poosh says:

    I had to then apologise for how upset he felt after reading it.

    Did CM write this ? lmao!

    What does it matter if LIkud generally – and imo rightly – refuse to have any Palestinian state west of the Jordan river. They split apart on this question, and there isn’t anyone else who won’t. They won’t be in power forever. They are completely guided by the democratic process.

    And damn right it should be a Jewish state. Currently the Jewish state of Israel has plenty of Muslims who enjoy more freedom than in the rest of the Middle East. Jewishness is not just a religion, it is also cultural and part of nationhood. Damn right it should be a Jewish state. The only one in the world.

    Why is it, I think we’ve uncovered something here, why is it unacceptable for a Jewish state to exist, but fine for every other country in the ME to be a “Muslim state” – with actually bad ramifications. As if Israel isn’t mostly atheist at this point, or heading that way like the rest of the west, anyway.

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  63. mrblume says:

    Maybe I am dense and uninformed, but I think that when Israel came to Camp David, back when Slick Willy was president some 13 years ago, prepared to sign the two state solution, that they accepted that two state solution?

    It would be great if they had, wouldn’t it. And yet, you have Israeli diplomats saying things like:

    If I were a Palestinian I would have rejected Camp David as well.

    http://www.democracynow.org/2006/2/14/fmr_israeli_foreign_minister_if_i

    Maybe Israel should have just taken the counter offer:

    Arafat reportedly countered with a land swap that would have allowed Israel to incorporate 35 percent of the settlers—not in broad settlement “blocs,” but in thin “ribbons” that would have less significantly impeded Palestinian travel but would have proved extremely difficult for Israel to defend.

    http://www.tomhull.com/ocston/books/beinart-crisis.php

    And no, I do not want Israel to stop building in “disputed territory”. They won that land fair and square when the fucking Arabs attacked them and tried to exterminate them. So far they have given back and given back and given back.

    That would be valid argument as well, but several decades later, you should see about giving the people in your new territories rights and citizenship, or accept that you are an apartheid state. Even if we say that the hostilities are, in essence, continuing, we already know that Israel doesn’t want to stop being a Jewish state, so they can’t give the Palestinians citizenship no matter how well they behave.

    I know that you probably don’t care about any of that, and would rather believe that once a territory is conquered, one can do what one wants with it and its inhabitants, but those are just bad values.

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  64. mrblume says:

    Damn right it should be a Jewish state. The only one in the world.

    Wait, there must only be one?

    This actually really is a fantastic idea. We should see about getting another Jewish state going, for the disillusioned Jewish left, and maybe a third one to boot. That would both subvert actual antisemitism, as well as the victimhood mentality of the Jewish right.

    We’ve already mentioned Germany giving up some land. Maybe the US could contribute Florida or something.

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  65. Poosh says:

    I have no problem – and I think it would be wise – for a second Jewish state, or a third. I think it would be sensible purely for survival reasons for Israel to completely move. I don’t think they can survive. And I don’t want to end up being drafted to defend Israelis in the inevitable uber-war in order to let Jews hold Israel when deep down I still, secretly, think it’s British territory.

    The Israelis have done wonders on that pathetic scrap of land they call Israel (0.1% of the ME more or less). They would be much better of in Europe. Imagine the boost to the EU’s failing economy.

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  66. Mississippi Yankee says:

    I’ve sat and read a lot of comments from lots of folks that aren’t very well acquainted with Israel’s short history. Several little things, like how no Arabs were forced out of Israel in 1948 and how the ones that stayed have not only prospered but are very close to becoming the majority. These are, over all, productive peace loving people that are being targeted by Hamas. What do you suppose their thoughts are?

    But Thrill when I read this my jaw damn near fell on the desk:

    Look, Hamas obviously does a lot for the Palestinian people that nobody else is,

    They are doing exactly what Arafat did, redistribute US and UN aide but most importantly redistributing vast sums of cash into their own bank accounts. How much was Arafat worth when he met his 72 virgin boys?

    Stogy I see you’re back.
    Didn’t like your douche bag whiny shit then.
    Didn’t miss you a goddamn bit.
    And not surprised by your superior, I’m here and I know better than you, bullshit now.
    And if AGW is so disastrous to Gaia stop flying all over the friggin’ world, Oh He Who Must Be Obeyed!
    CM might have a good idea once in a while but people like you and salinger are just “beyond the pale”
    And don’t get in front of any CAT-9′s

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  67. Poosh says:

    I thought I remember Stogy from somewhere but I thought maybe I was mixing him up with Gecko, was it?

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  68. Iconoclast says:

    For finding that other thread so “distastefull”, you do seem rather hell-bent on completely rehashing it…

    Making wild claims about an entire group and then de-humaning them is exactly the sort of language Hitler used to justify what he would then do to them.

    And in the other thread I explained why it’s an apples-to-oranges comparison. The people that Hitler was dehumanizing were not a threat to German citizens in any way, shape, form or fashion. The Palestinians and Hamas, otoh, are a threat to Israeli citizens.

    Poosh and Alex brought up Hitler and Nazi’s before I did.

    Pathetic. You were the first and only person to compare people here in this forum to Hitler. The other Hitler references were benign.

    And if this isn’t an examples of flaming, which occured before I said that, and which you didn’t raise objections to, then you really do need some assistance:

    I never said they weren’t “examples of flaming” — I just don’t give a damn about flaming. Obviously, you weren’t around prior to Lee’s unfortunate demise. This place was called “Thunderdome” for a reason: it was a no-holds-barred type of forum where wusses need not apply. I don’t believe you would have survived.

    Right, but previously flaming and Hitler and Nazi references were just fine.

    The Hitler and Nazi references weren’t directed at anyone here in this venue, and the only person to compare Hitler to people in this venue in any way, shape, form or fashion was you.

    You made a serious of bold claims about what I believe…

    You really need to get over yourself; I’ve told you before that I don’t give a rat’s ass about what you believe. I only care about what you actually write, and what it implies. If you cannot separate the two, that’s your problem.

    …and then blatantly misrepresented what I’ve previously said about Hamas…

    Nope. It’s called paraphrase. I didn’t remember your exact words, but “charity organization” is close enough. The real point is that when you described Hamas, you completely omitted the fact that they’re a terrorist organization, so I didn’t “misrepresent” a damned thing.

    WTF are you talking about? What “scientific studies” are these?

    Apparently, you don’t remember the “Some Scientists Get It” thread, wherein “science” allegedly “demonstrated” that right-wingers “don’t trust science”.

    I’ll take that to mean that you don’t give a shit about Likud’s charter, or settlement building. Is that fair?

    Well, I was responding to a specific bullet point, but don’t let that stop you. You are free to infer anything you want, although I tend to infer from what is actually written, but you seem to be infering from what I didn’t write.

    I repeat: The elimination of Israel is a goal of Hamas. Does the Likud charter call for the elimination of the Palestinian people? Have any Israeli leaders gone on record stating that the elimination of the Palestinian people was their goal?

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  69. mrblume says:

    I described the Palestinians as Nazi-like which is an accurate description given how the average Palestinian kid is brought up.

    The article you linked (http://ivarfjeld.wordpress.com/2012/09/03/arab-palestinian-fatah-youth-educated-to-hate-jews/) utterly fails at making the argument that these kids have been thought to hate Jews, or any other thing that could be described as Nazi-like, or anything that could really be considered offensive, even. I mean, it doesn’t even try to. The author clearly assumes that telling is readership what they already believe requires no facts.

    Vague references to the existence of “rifles” amount to nothing more than they do in about half the world’s national anthems, until proven otherwise. There is no evidence that the image is even from the ceremony in question. Oh yes, there’s also some disagreement about land in there.

    I would honestly be curious to see your attempt to define the exact location of the Jew-hating message here.

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  70. Poosh says:

    that’s one of multiple videos and articles. not to mention that even young children are cohered into terrorism.

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  71. Poosh says:

    it’s bed time for me but here is a quick link. I admit it is hard to simply google, my information relies on links from blogs over the years, including this one – google itself is filled with anti-semitic and anti-israeli sites which makes the google search hard.

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  72. stogy says:

    Hi Poosh. I remember you well, even if you don’t remember me :)

    You might not think that the issues related to water are important – however they really are a major factor in Israel’s relationships with its neighbors and with the Palestinians. The importance can be seen in the fact that Oslo II had a whole section on the right to water for the Palestinians (Article 40 of Annex III), which was never fulfilled because Oslo was never implemented. One major reason that the Israelis don’t want to hand back the Golan Heights to Syria is that they are a major water source for the Sea of Galilee, and Syria is quite likely to want to divert that water for its own use. Water was also one of the biggest stumbling blocks in negotiations with Jordan – and the peace agreement was stalled for a long time – until after Oslo.

    If you want to get an idea of some of the politics behind the water issue, here is a fairly decent Israeli political perspective. I can’t copy and paste from it, but the section on pages 196-7 is what you need. Sherman’s conclusion:

    While it is probably true that Israel need not retain the entire territory of the “West Bank” for purely hydrological reasons, the areas which she could relinquish without seriously jeopardizing her own water system are hardly likely to constitute an attractive offer for Palestinians to give up their struggle for national self determination i.e. sufficiently attractive to attain peace… Thus, from an Israeli point of view, there would seem little point in making offers destined for virtually certain rejection by their Palestinian counterparts, or from making concessions which only exacerbate the threats to the country’s security without advancing the cause of peace in any tangible way.

    But reading it all will give you an idea of how important this is as an issue for both Israelis and Palestinians. Starr noted that

    “by the explicit recognition of Palestinian Water Rights, Israel has opened a pandora’s box and created the most dangerous precedent in her history”

    Still think water isn’t important?

    Curiously, many of the aquifer areas have ended up inside of the Israeli separation wall, reflecting Israel’s desire to pull those resources into Israel proper at a later date. This makes pre-1967 borders extremely difficult. I would expect Israel to try to trade some of its Arab Israeli settlements (i.e Israeli citizens) in exchange. This would be a very poor deal for the Palestinians – more people less water. And grossly unfair for those Arab Israelis who unwillingly may end up on the wrong side of the border.

    I am not going get too much into pricing and delivery of water by Mekorot, as there is a ton of rhetoric on both sides about it (as you pointed out). But Mekorot has a great business model – much of the water comes from aquifers on Palestinian land, is processed in Israel, and then sold back to the Palestinians at much higher prices. Many Palestinians claim that Mekorot’s delivery is poor and that they usually only get water one day a week. Mekorot accuses Palestinians of stealing the water (apparently up to 50%). The Palestinian Water Authority is virtually useless, partly because the Israelis won’t let them develop their own water harvesting sources and facilities, but also because they are useless. The Palestinian Water Authority needs what Mekerot give them, which isn’t much, but is substantially more than was required under Oslo.

    If you visit the West Bank you see something that you almost never see in Israel proper: Large water tanks on the roofs of houses – with water only coming one day a week, it has to go somewhere. The tanks are a nice target for Israeli settlers. If you choose the right day, a single bullet through the tank can remove the water for a Palestinian apartment building for a whole week, until Mekorot turn the water back on.

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  73. stogy says:

    Here is something else I just found:

    By restricting Palestinians’ access to existing infrastructure and preventing them from constructing an independent water network, Israel has pushed more and more Palestinian communities into purchasing water from its national water company, a semiprivatized entity called Mekorot. In 1982, Ariel Sharon, then Israel’s defense minister, transferred all the West Bank’s water infrastructure to Mekorot for the symbolic price of one shekel. Israeli officials cast this trend in a positive light. The Israeli Water Authority, in a response to a harshly critical 2009 Amnesty International report, issued a statement asserting that “in places where the Palestinian system is insufficient . . . Mekorot assists the Palestinian Water Authority by directly providing additional water, thereby fully meeting the humanitarian needs of the Palestinians.” Mekorot has in fact become the single largest supplier of water in the West Bank, which places Palestinians in the position of paying their occupier for water pumped from beneath their feet.

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  74. stogy says:

    One final point on water (not trying to flood, pardon the pun, the thread). Poosh said:

    Israel has offered and allowed for constant water production et al for the Palestinians, whose governing bodies – PA i think usually – simply do not carry out due to incompetence.

    I’d be interested to know where you got your info on this. It’s exactly the opposite of what the World Bank report found:

    JWC has not fulfilled its role of providing an effective collaborative governance framework for joint resource management and investment. The JWC was established under Article 40 to implement the Oslo Interim Agreement on Water. However, it has not been an effective mechanism for facilitating sector investment. A high proportion of Palestinian projects has been rejected or long delayed in the JWC. Records show that 106 water projects and 12 large scale wastewater projects are awaiting JWC approval, some of them since 1999. According to the records, the pending water projects would have benefited 1.1 million beneficiaries, and the pending sanitation projects almost 800,000. Out of the $121 million of projects presented to JWC in the 2001-2008 period, 50% by value ($60.4 million) have been approved, and one third have been implemented or begun implementation. By contrast, records suggest that all Israeli-proposed projects for development in the West Bank except one have been approved by the JWC. Israeli projects drawing on the shared aquifers on Israel’s side of the Green Line, are not presented to the JWC. (Chapter 17)

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  75. CM says:

    Waaaaaait…were you deliberately trying to kill this thread?

    (No, I really wasn’t. I was really just trying to explain what I didn’t like about the last one……clearly that didn’t go down well and it all escalated….again…anyway I’ve provided my 10 cents worth here….I’ll continue remaining out of the way so the rest of you can get on with it)

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  76. Thrill says:

    But Thrill when I read this my jaw damn near fell on the desk:

    Look, Hamas obviously does a lot for the Palestinian people that nobody else is,

    They are doing exactly what Arafat did, redistribute US and UN aide but most importantly redistributing vast sums of cash into their own bank accounts. How much was Arafat worth when he met his 72 virgin boys?

    Hamas is a bunch of gangsters (not that Arafat was a member of Hamas or even really got along with them though) but they DO provide social services and assistance to the Palestinian people. Not everybody there supports them because they like shooting off fireworks, you know.

    Whether the good they do is outweighed by the likely embezzlement and expenditures for war is a question that the Palestinians would have to answer.

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  77. AlexInCT says:

    It would be great if they had, wouldn’t it. And yet, you have Israeli diplomats saying things like:

    If I were a Palestinian I would have rejected Camp David as well.

    http://www.democracynow.org/2006/2/14/fmr_israeli_foreign_minister_if_i

    Hah! You found a bunch of leftist kooks that claim to have found one pissed off and self hating Jew to say something that excuses the Palestinians from turning down a deal? I prefer to go with the real facts. And the facts are that the Palestinians were given one fucking heck of deal only to have Arafat turn it down anyway so he wuldn’t lose power. He saw what happened to Gorbachev when he got peace.

    Like I said: the pople pretending the Palestinians got a raw deal are full of it.

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  78. swassociates says:

    If someone shoots at me over my back fence, trust me, I’m fucking shooting back with intent to kill everything in the bullets path.

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  79. balthazar says:

    Yeah, hamas is the group Israel should be working with….

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/21/us-israel-telaviv-bus-explosion-idUSBRE8AK0HS20121121

    Celebratory gunfire rang out across Gaza as the news spread and the territory’s Islamist rulers Hamas praised the bombing, but no one claimed immediate responsibility.

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  80. Poosh says:

    Still think water isn’t important?

    You asserted Israel was withholding water deliberately, the implication being they wanted to hurt Palestinians or that it was for political reasons. This is nonsense.

    The Palestinian Water Authority is virtually useless, partly because the Israelis won’t let them develop their own water harvesting sources and facilities

    This seems untrue and I don’t want to continue being respectful as you seem to be repeating a constant stream of anti-Israeli propaganda that are so plentiful and a direct cause of the conflict. You refer to a stream of articles which is the norm, all designed to delegitimise Israel and present them as oppressors and the cause of the problem. And you just repeat the false assertions like a true propagandist, but with the an academic air, which is probably what you did before, but I cannot remember.

    The truth seems to be what one instinctively knows: most of the sins Israel commits are fabricated or the result of choosing the lesser of two evils – always brought about by the Palestinians.

    Recently our organization, Missing Peace, obtained authentic papers documenting meetings of the Joint Israeli Palestinian Water Committee (JWC), and correspondence between Colonel Avi Shalev, head of the International relations branch of COGAT, and Dr.Atilli. These documents paint an entirely different picture.

    Contrary to Atilli’s outrageous accusations, the Palestinian Authority has been sabotaging the two-state solution by preventing the development of an independent water infrastructure for the future Palestinian state.

    With Palestine you’re often dealing with liars and anti-Semites who are eager to manipulate the west – and the success is clear to see with the difficulty in goggling the reality vs the widely reported Pali-lies.

    Another reason for the loss of water is the poor maintenance of the Palestinian water infrastructure. A staggering 33% of the fresh water supply gets lost because of leaks, theft and poor maintenance.

    I heard it was a much as half but still: the Palestinians steal from eachother.

    These are only few examples of the shocking way the Palestinian Authority neglected the basic needs of its citizens and cynically uses water as a weapon in a PR campaign against Israel. It shows that, contrary to reports dealing with progress in state building, the PA is far from ready for statehood.

    There is, however, yet another conclusion to be drawn here.

    The stubborn refusal to work with Israel on mutual interests like improvement of the water infrastructure, and the way the PA subsequently uses that lack of improvement to demonize Israel, prove that the PA is not interested in the two-state solution, or peace.

    Stogy, along with many others, are just tools being used against Israel. Well done. But I guess you swamped us with so many “facts” that it becomes impossible to vet all of them without spending several hours merely confirming what we instinctively knew in the first place, so well done in terms of tactics.

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  81. Thrill says:

    Can we say that Israel isn’t deliberately withholding water but that their security precautions and red tape do make water more expensive and difficult to deliver to Palestinian territories? I think that’s fair to say.

    Amnesty International does make a good point on that, although I naturally question how much they’re overstating the impact.

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  82. Poosh says:

    I have no interest in what Amnesty International have to say. They have proven in the past to be far from what they claim to be.

    The only point, after a quick skim, I’d agree with is that Israel does harm the supply of water by some degree, by it’s blockade of certain goods, but again, that’s entirely the fault of the Palestinians. I have less sympathy for them as I do for Iran being subject to sanctions. Then again, given Iran nearly has a nuke, and Hamas and Islamic Jihad et al seem armed to the teeth, I do wonder how effective these so-called blockades/sanctions are. Why can Hamas smuggle in endless arms, but not a small number of basic parts? (not that they need to smuggle them in, but if they did have to, then why not?)
    ______

    But one does wonder, as liberals and marxists believe, we are all really just collectivists, why these people – unmolested from a capitalist ideology – do not share water and pull together, and collectively go on these so-called “water runs”. It’s almost as if humans are naturally selfish…

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  83. AlexInCT says:

    Can we say that Israel isn’t deliberately withholding water but that their security precautions and red tape do make water more expensive and difficult to deliver to Palestinian territories? I think that’s fair to say.

    Actually, my take on this is that Israel is doing the Palestinian people a favor. The death worshippers are so inept and incapable of anything that isn’t committing murder, that it is a bonus they have someone else, instead of their terrorist leadership, in charge of such a vital resource. When the Palestinians were in charge of it it was used as a weapon, against their own people, and in dire shape.

    It’s not accidental that the Palestinians live in such squalor, and that with the exception of Israel and maybe Turkey, most ME nations are veritable shit holes. Corruption, clannish behaviors and preferences, lack of skills, and most important of all an apathy caused by practically everyone of them thinking any job short of Emir is beneath them, has “conspired” to make them dysfunctional. Of course they all blame the Jews. Ironically the same Jews that now make sure they get their water. Shit, Israel runs practically all of the infrastructure that the Palestinians have that works. If they were not doing that the Palestinians would be even worse off.

    This water situation is only something nefarious, or a draw back, if you refuse to see the real problems.

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  84. AlexInCT says:

    The only point, after a quick skim, I’d agree with is that Israel does harm the supply of water by some degree, by it’s blockade of certain goods, but again, that’s entirely the fault of the Palestinians. I have less sympathy for them as I do for Iran being subject to sanctions. Then again, given Iran nearly has a nuke, and Hamas and Islamic Jihad et al seem armed to the teeth, I do wonder how effective these so-called blockades/sanctions are. Why can Hamas smuggle in endless arms, but not a small number of basic parts? (not that they need to smuggle them in, but if they did have to, then why not?)

    Priorities Poosh. Improving the people’s conditions falls way, way below the prime objective of exterminating the fucking Jews. Funny how with all the bans and even military & police activity to prevent weapons from going to Hamas and its supporters, they seem hell bent to keep that flow going. Getting basic necessities that help out, and these have no bans on them, however? Pfeh.. If the people get a cushy life they might lose their desperation and actually decide they are better of learning to get along than sticking to this idiotic and evil idea of exterminating Israel.

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  85. stogy says:

    Poosh. I think you need to read through what I have posted again carefully. I am very critical of the Palestinian Authority and did actually say they steal water. They are also corrupt and incompetent. I said this all earlier in regard to other issues. I agreed with you that there is a lot of rhetoric and propaganda in just about every aspect of the conflict.

    In the sources I chose above, apart from Amnesty, I have largely chosen conservative links and Israeli ones where I could rather than Palestinian sources. I even avoided Haaretz (but you posted from the J Post, which is as far right as Haaretz is left). Amnesty was largely irrelevant anyway to the point I was making, which was that an occupied state had its water resources confiscated for a single shekel, and they are unlikely to get them all back – even with a peace treaty.

    If you are going to argue you against me on the water issue, you need to say how it is not a significant driver of the conflict (which was my original claim that you questioned), and that there is enough water to satisfy both Israel’s and Palestine’s needs without seizing large chunks of Palestine beyond 1967 borders. I think I put up a pretty convincing case. The Sherman article is certainly not propaganda. I’d be really interested in seeing a solid, sourced argument against it.

    you seem to be repeating a constant stream of anti-Israeli propaganda that are so plentiful and a direct cause of the conflict. … Stogy, along with many others, are just tools being used against Israel.

    Remember that many of the Israeli courts have also found that government policy discriminates against Palestinians. And why is that you get to decide what constitutes pro and anti-Israeli positions anyway? There are lots of Israelis who disagree with their government’s policy. The court system has found against the government on a regular basis in terms of treatment of minorities in Israel and the West Bank (not only Palestinians either). I am with them, mostly. I consider my position to be pro-Israeli, anti-fundamentalist.

    And I guess I don’t see the point in parroting the propaganda that both sides put out. I met fundamentalist Israelis and Palestinians while I was there. The attitudes towards women and homosexuality, and education, for both groups were really not different from that of fundamentalists everywhere. But this doesn’t make me anti-Israeli. I want an end to the conflict where both Palestinians and Israelis live in safe, economically viable communities.

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  86. Poosh says:

    If you are going to argue you against me on the water issue, you need to say how it is not a significant driver of the conflict (which was my original claim that you questioned),

    You’re swapping premises and moving the goal-post. If that was your ORIGINAL point and I misunderstood, then I misunderstood, but I do not believe I have (but if I did mistake your original point, then I mistook it) – I responded to the claim that Israel was malicious and deliberately holding off water like a tyrant. I should make a slight point which I feel sometimes I forget. but I do not believe the Israeli government – under whatever party – is innocent, just as no government is innocent purely on account of being a government. Given you’re a liberal, what you think is “far right” is no doubt centre-right in reality. I obviously haven’t the time to go over an entire dissertation and spend a week checking it. it took me a hour to merely find a few counter arguments to the lie that Israel was stealing water and preventing Palestinians from having it. But as far as I know despite it seeming reasonable that water is an obvious factor, Israel, or should I say the free-market/capitalism, has managed to minimise water being a factor via technology. What I do know is every time I do bother to research and check a claim made against Israel it is largely innocent and the claim – widely reported – against them is false.

    In the heat of the moment and as a reaction to the constant stream of pure lies being told about Israel and framing them as tyrants, it is often not apparent that I am aware of occasions when Israel has acted inappropriately – but no more or less than all Western governments.

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  87. Poosh says:

    Perspective.

    It really does have little to do with the land.

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  88. stogy says:

    That’s a fair enough criticism, Poosh. I wasn’t clear in my original post. And it is much more complex than just saying “israel limits the water supply”. Again, I do recommend the Sherman article – it really just presents the problem and a pretty good analysis – without any propagandizing for either side.

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  89. Mississippi Yankee says:

    CBS Incorrectly Claims Hamas Was Elected to Power in Gaza

    One of the recurring myths sometimes repeated about the Gaza Strip’s relationship with Hamas is that the terrorist group gained control through the electoral process. On both the Monday and Tuesday editions of the CBS Evening News, anchor Scott Pelley devoted a brief segment to providing background information on the Gaza Strip. And, on both nights, he erroneously suggested that Hamas came to power through election. (Video below)

    But, in reality, Hamas came to control the Gaza Strip by staging a violent coup in June 2007 overthrowing the rival Fatah party’s executive authority. After Hamas narrowly won the popular vote in the Janaury 2006 parliamentary elections, Mahmoud Abbas of the Fatah party was still the legitimate president for both the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. After Hamas overthrew Fatah’s executive authority in the Gaza Strip, Israel and Egypt imposed the blockade.

    After Hamas took control of the Palestinian parliament in January 2006, Israel had joined with the Quartet entities — the United States, the European Union, the United Nations, and Russia — in imposing economic sanctions against the Palestinian Authority, affecting both the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. But, after the Hamas coup in Gaza in 2007, sanctions affecting the West Bank were lifted to assist Fatah, while the blockade was imposed on the Gaza Strip to weaken Hamas.

    Read more: http://newsbusters.org/blogs/brad-wilmouth/2012/11/22/cbs-incorrectly-claims-hamas-was-elected-power-gaza#ixzz2D0QvpkgI

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