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Hamas and Israel, Round 47

One piece of news that got lost in the election scramble last week was that rockets starting being fired out of Gaza again. Today, Israel struck back:

Israel on Wednesday launched one of the most ferocious assaults on Gaza since its invasion four years ago, hitting at least 20 targets in aerial attacks that killed the top military commander of Hamas, drew strong condemnation from Egypt and escalated the risks of a new war in the Middle East.

The Israelis coupled the intensity of the airstrikes with the threat of another ground invasion and warnings to all Hamas leaders in Gaza to stay out of sight or risk the same fate as the Hamas military commander, Ahmed al-Jabari, who was killed in a pinpoint airstrike as he was traveling by car down a Gaza street. “We recommend that no Hamas operatives, whether low level or senior leaders, show their faces above ground in the days ahead,” the Israel Defense Forces said in a Twitter message.

There have also been shots fired at Golan Heights, where Syrian munitions have fallen and provoked Israeli response. A dozen more rockets have been fired out of Gaza today.

We’ll have to see how this goes. But it’s not looking good. With both Egypt and Syria unstable, a war against Israel could be just what their leaders think the doctor ordered. I would not be surprised if we move a carrier or two into position just in case.

105 comments

1 ping

  1. TxAg94 says:

    My first thought was that Israel is almost hoping, for lack of a better word, for some sort of response from Iran to use as an excuse to take care of their business there, as well. They have figured out that they stand pretty much alone so they need to start doing something about all these problems. Unlike our government, they have figured out that ignoring it only makes it worse. I guess they just hoped that our election would give them a stronger ally beforer they acted.

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  2. AlexInCT says:

    Unlike our government, they have figured out that ignoring it only makes it worse.

    Dead terrorists are great people. And if killing a few makes more, then what you need is more killing. Sooner or later the tools will get the message or be all dead. The British Empire did it right back in the day.

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  3. CM says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  4. mrblume says:

    “We recommend that no Hamas operatives, whether low level or senior leaders, show their faces above ground in the days ahead,” the Israel Defense Forces said in a Twitter message.

    Classy and professional, as always.

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  5. Mississippi Yankee says:

    Panicking civilians ran for cover and the death toll mounted quickly. Ten people including three children were killed, the health ministry said, and about 40 were wounded. Also among the dead were an 11-month-old baby and a woman pregnant with twins.

    Leni Riefenstahl couldn’t have written better copy. Waiting for the film. And she would have loved you CM, just the kind of audience she lived for .

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  6. Thrill says:

    Doesn’t matter if it’s true or not. Reuters may as well have claimed that 1,000 children died. It wouldn’t be questioned by those poor, misguided people.

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  7. blameme says:

    This reuters?

    Or this one?

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  8. Hal_10000 says:

    I don’t think there’s any question that strikes on Gaza kill civilians. That’s simply the reality. You either accept this as a price of military action or you don’t launch strikes.

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  9. Mississippi Yankee says:

    I don’t think there’s any question that strikes on Gaza kill civilians. That’s simply the reality.

    At least the missiles heading into Israel never kill anyone right?

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  10. Shiftuser says:

    On 09/11/2001 I will never, ever forget the images of Palestinians dancing and rejoicing in the streets of the West Bank and Gaza strip. After all of the food, medical and educational aid the U.S. and dumped on their worthless asses (men, women and children) the uneducated, illiterate, dumbasses celebrated the attack on the “Great Satan”! They were happy that 3000 innocent civilians (infidels) lost their lives!

    It still pisses me off to this day! I could give a flying fuck about Palestinians. They are a faux fabrication of an Arabic/Islamic end game. They never were a recognized race or nation prior to 1948. They just happened to be convenient pawns in another anti-Semitic, anti-western, Islamo-fascist scheme. Israel should take the West Bank and Gaza strip, force all of the Palestinians into Syria and Egypt and dare them to try and cross over the border again.

    I have no sympathy and no concern for those people what-so-ever. Their children are raised in home and school and are indoctrinated in hate from the time they are born. By the time they are 8 they are being trained as suicide bombers and machine gun toting terrorists. By the time they are 13 their minds and souls are so polluted that there is no chance for reason or redemption.

    The Palestinians live in cult of death worship, hate idolatry, and indoctrinated genocide. They are the rattle snake in the bush, dangerous when ignored, but easily eliminated when exposed.

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  11. blameme says:

    I don’t think there’s any question that strikes on Gaza kill civilians. That’s simply the reality. You either accept this as a price of military action or you don’t launch strikes.

    And you don’t use Reuters to explain how Israel creates terrorists when they have been known and proven to fabricate things to paint Israel in the worst light possible.

    Like you like to say Hal, maybe we should wait on more sources and facts from various sources before we come to any conclusions. If this happened the way Rueters reported (unlike many time in the past where they outright fabricated people dying, the number of people dying and the cause), then shame on Hamas for hiding behind their people to take shots at Israel.

    Of course civilians die. Israel has to either let rockets keep raining down on their citizens or take down the bastards that did it.

    Perhaps Reuters could write about how these leaders use civilians as shields so at best they won’t get shot at and at worst if civilians get killed they can use it as propaganda against those evil Jews? Isn’t that much worse than collateral damage when retaliating against aggressive acts of war?

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  12. Mississippi Yankee says:

    Also among the dead were an 11-month-old baby and a woman pregnant with twins.

    The trump card has been played. Period.

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  13. CM says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  14. mrblume says:

    Let’s analyze the layers of moral decrepitude that people here hide behind.

    1. If we hear about civilian deaths, it’s probably a fabrication.
    2. In the unlikely case that such reports are true, the other guys are really to blame, for “hiding” behind civilians.
    3. But that doesn’t matter anyway, because if civilians die, that’s just the cost of doing business.
    4. Even if it weren’t, we’re probably better off killing as many of them as possible.

    I’d rather take my changes trying to convince an indoctrinated 13 year old Palestinian than muddle through *that*.

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  15. InsipiD says:

    Israel is the only country on earth who could be made to look like the bad guy for striking back after a week of shelling.

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  16. thelastdakrat says:

    Maybe you should check your definition of moral (and decrepitude for that matter). It would not be moral for Israel to let her citizens be rocketed without response. It would not be moral to withhold such response because non-targets may be harmed or killed. It is not moral to wage violence against a country while surrounding yourself with people who will make sympathetic victims when the retaliation comes.

    We need to remember that pacifists, and those that would urge pacifism as a solution for other countries being rocketed by assholes, are largely just parasites reaping the benefits of living among adults who are willing to make hard choices and live with the consequences.

    Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay; and claims a halo for his dishonesty. – Robert Heinlein

    Since pacifists have more freedom of action in countries where traces of democracy survive, pacifism can act more effectively against democracy than for it. Objectively the pacifist is pro-Nazi. – George Orwell

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  17. mrblume says:

    adults who are willing to make hard choices and live with the consequences.

    I’m all for that. It applies to none of the people here as far as I can tell. Indeed, killing Palestinians appears to be a no-brainer for many, ironically while being disengaged from any consequences whatsoever.

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  18. mrblume says:

    Let me put it very simply. I’ll respect you for supporting Israels operations when I see you shed a tear for that woman and her unborn children. Until then, you’re no better than Palestinians celebrating on 9/11.

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  19. balthazar says:

    Let me put it very simply. I’ll respect you for supporting Israels operations when I see you shed a tear for that woman and her unborn children. Until then, you’re no better than Palestinians celebrating on 9/11.

    It is unfortunate that she died, maybe she should have moved?

    Why was she living next to a munitions dump is the better question.

    Why do the so called “military” leaders of Hamas put thier offices/munitions in schools and hospitals, and use ambulances to get around the strip?

    These are questions that the media never really asks, and always assume Israel is lying when they say that yes, all of these rockets are being launched from schoolyards and hospital parking lots.

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  20. blameme says:

    Let me put it very simply. I’ll respect you for supporting Israels operations when I see you shed a tear for that woman and her unborn children. Until then, you’re no better than Palestinians celebrating on 9/11.

    How do you know we don’t? In this thread, it is easy to tell that the whole point was to use this family to paint Israel as the bad guy. Mock me if you like, but we pray for both sides in our family. I have friends form Israel who would LOVE for this to be over and literally weep when Palestinians are killed.

    Of course we would LOVE Hamas to stop randomly shooting rockets into Israel. We would LOVE them to not hide behind innocents.

    But Hamas won’t. They hide, they attack innocents themselves via rockets in Israel and then get indignant when Israel strikes bike. They hide behind innocents to create martyrs as the KNOW Israel, as a sovereign country, cannot allow rocket attacks to go unanswered.

    Your feigned moral outrage at those of us who can see reality is noted. Is Israel completely innocent – no – they build etc violating UN resolutions. But, Hamas is to blame for this family dying – no doubt.

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  21. Iconoclast says:

    And around we go again.

    Yup, here we go again, meticulously counting all of the dead babies on the enemy’s side while ignoring months of constant rocket attacks by said enemy, and ignoring the fact that the enemy cowardly hides behind human shields for the express purpose of creating this kind of collateral damage, over which the press (and mrblume, apparently) loves to mentally masturbate.

    I have already explained that Hamas, that terrorist organization that you insist is a “charity” organization, has the utter elimination of Israel as their goal, as does Iran who backs Hamas. But no, none of that matters, obviously, “people will be lining up out the door” to become terrorists simply because Israel is evil, period, end of discussion, Allah Akbar, amen.

    And on and on we go.

    Yeah, you got that right. And it will keep on going as long as the Arab world and Israel both continue to exist. This conflict has no resolution, period, save the elimination of one side or the other.

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  22. blameme says:

    And on and on we go.

    Indeed. And you own a lot of that. I noticed no outrage on your part on Hamas (that civil service organization as you called them) shooting rockets randomly into Israel. Only Israel’s retaliation that, again due to Hamas hiding among innocents, will kill innocent bystanders.

    Funny that. Must be more of your unbiased commentary.

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  23. mrblume says:

    It is unfortunate that she died

    It’s not optimal, no.

    How do you know we don’t?

    You know, it might indeed be my skewed perspective. I guess when reading one of the most popular posts in this thread, by Shiftuser, I’m drawing the wrong conclusions. A post by the way which not only a bunch of people agree with, but seems to enjoy the silent consent of everyone else. For all intents and purposes, you could give it a permanent place as this blog’s manifesto on the issue.

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  24. blameme says:

    For all intents and purposes, you could give it a permanent place as this blog’s manifesto on the issue.

    I do not think this is true. This conflict is complicated and people get upset when it is obvious when the tune gets played of “Bad, Evil Israel bombing women and children.” It’s bullshit propaganda and those who perpetuate it are being disingenuous at best.

    That group immediately, and with great anticipation it seems, starts counting dead babies and blames Israel when all Israel is doing is answering Hamas dropping rockets into Israel.

    Hamas hides in schools, hospitals civilian housing as they KNOW at SOME POINT Israel has to answer and then they can bring the press out and cry about the dead innocents. They just keep bombing until ultimately Israel HAS TO ANSWER.

    To see it any other way is incredulous. Israel cannot let bombing go unanswered and they have to target Hamas who purposely USES HUMAN SHIELDS AS LEVERAGE IN THE PRESS.

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  25. InsipiD says:

    Hamas hides in schools, hospitals civilian housing as they KNOW at SOME POINT Israel has to answer and then they can bring the press out and cry about the dead innocents. They just keep bombing until ultimately Israel HAS TO ANSWER.

    When they do everything they can to put people in harm’s way on both sides and then release the very most headline-generating death reports declaring civilian losses and beg the UN to make Israel stop, I just don’t see Hamas as a victim. Look at the situation: Israel isn’t the reason the people died.

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  26. Poosh says:

    Remember when you nuked Japan and that created like a billion Terrorists ?

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  27. Poosh says:

    It’s hard to give a shit about the Palestinians when you know they’re largely a brainwashed, savage Nazi breed of people. I am upset and angered that their culture and religion has created them as such, as many of them have simply not been given the choice about who they are. There are some who escape or eventually realise the reality of their condition but they are few. As with most of the Middle East, the sheer waste of human life due to their religion and culture is the true evil there.

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  28. blameme says:

    When they do everything they can to put people in harm’s way on both sides and then release the very most headline-generating death reports declaring civilian losses and beg the UN to make Israel stop, I just don’t see Hamas as a victim. Look at the situation: Israel isn’t the reason the people died.

    Agree 100%.

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  29. AlexInCT says:

    I don’t think there’s any question that strikes on Gaza kill civilians.

    There are no civilians in Gaza. That’s what you got wrong. All these people are part of the death cult.

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  30. AlexInCT says:

    And on and on we go.

    If the Palestinians stood down, laid down their arms in a gesture of good faith, and accepted their neighbor, we would have peace in the ME.

    If Israel stood down, laid down its arms in a gesture of good faith, they already accept their neighbor, we would have another massacre to match Hitler’s vaunted 6 million Jew count.

    That’s the truth. Brutal and ugly. And that is why I won’t shed a tear for any Palestinians that Hamas uses as human shields, for propaganda purposes, when Israel is forced to fight back. I frankly marvel at the restraint the IDF shows when they go after these monsters. I wish the people that are so concerned at these “innocent deaths” would place blame where it really belongs: on Hamas.

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  31. mrblume says:

    There are no civilians in Gaza. That’s what you got wrong. All these people are part of the death cult.

    You should join myself and blameme when we pray for the Palestinians.

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  32. CM says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  33. Thrill says:

    D’oh!

    [Edit: I just noticed that Alex already got this one. Must...read...every link...in the thread. Apologies.]

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  34. Poosh says:

    Liberalism is a religion remember. They NEED to believe the lie/fiction that the Palestinians are some sort of victim as one of their main ideological tenets. It’s a massive issue they can wax BS at to pretend they care for “foreigners” etc.

    Pathetic creatures, they are.

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  35. balthazar says:

    Wow, yet another thread on Palestine/Israel chock-full of blatant misrepresentations.
    What a surprise.
    Not.
    Same old then.

    Then how about you stop posting, please.

    GFY tool.

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  36. HARLEY says:

    It would be nice if Hamas would stop firing unguided munitions in to Israel, you know the ones with 10 to 20 Kilogram warheads, with a CEP measured thousands of feet… You really cant ge tmuch more random…

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  37. HARLEY says:

    DOH got caught again!

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  38. blameme says:

    Then how about you stop posting, please.

    GFY tool.

    Don’t feed the troll. He loves this. Any person with a brain can see exactly how this plays. The Holy Unbiased One, aka CM, calls Hamas a civil service organization but blames Israel for retaliating and innocents being killed all the while Hamas bombs Israel and hides behind said civilians.

    Disingenuous bullshit.

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  39. HARLEY says:

    Don’t feed the troll. He loves this.

    That is why i have referred to him as the TAR BABY…

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  40. Kimpost says:

    I notice that you are jumping on CM for trolling, as usual. A quick glance in this thread gave me the following. I kind of HOPE that they are examples of trolling, because if they are not, if they are real, then something’s seriously fucked up…

    Dead terrorists are great people. And if killing a few makes more, then what you need is more killing. Sooner or later the tools will get the message or be all dead. The British Empire did it right back in the day.

    Liberalism is a religion remember. They NEED to believe the lie/fiction that the Palestinians are some sort of victim as one of their main ideological tenets. It’s a massive issue they can wax BS at to pretend they care for “foreigners” etc.

    Pathetic creatures, they are.

    It’s hard to give a shit about the Palestinians when you know they’re largely a brainwashed, savage Nazi breed of people.

    There are no civilians in Gaza. That’s what you got wrong. All these people are part of the death cult.

    If the Palestinians stood down, laid down their arms in a gesture of good faith, and accepted their neighbor, we would have peace in the ME.

    If Israel stood down, laid down its arms in a gesture of good faith, they already accept their neighbor, we would have another massacre to match Hitler’s vaunted 6 million Jew count.

    That’s the truth. Brutal and ugly. And that is why I won’t shed a tear for any Palestinians that Hamas uses as human shields, for propaganda purposes, when Israel is forced to fight back. I frankly marvel at the restraint the IDF shows when they go after these monsters. I wish the people that are so concerned at these “innocent deaths” would place blame where it really belongs: on Hamas.

    And then there’s this huge hate piece from shiftuser. For fucks sake…

    On 09/11/2001 I will never, ever forget the images of Palestinians dancing and rejoicing in the streets of the West Bank and Gaza strip. After all of the food, medical and educational aid the U.S. and dumped on their worthless asses (men, women and children) the uneducated, illiterate, dumbasses celebrated the attack on the “Great Satan”! They were happy that 3000 innocent civilians (infidels) lost their lives!

    It still pisses me off to this day! I could give a flying fuck about Palestinians. They are a faux fabrication of an Arabic/Islamic end game. They never were a recognized race or nation prior to 1948. They just happened to be convenient pawns in another anti-Semitic, anti-western, Islamo-fascist scheme. Israel should take the West Bank and Gaza strip, force all of the Palestinians into Syria and Egypt and dare them to try and cross over the border again.

    I have no sympathy and no concern for those people what-so-ever. Their children are raised in home and school and are indoctrinated in hate from the time they are born. By the time they are 8 they are being trained as suicide bombers and machine gun toting terrorists. By the time they are 13 their minds and souls are so polluted that there is no chance for reason or redemption.

    The Palestinians live in cult of death worship, hate idolatry, and indoctrinated genocide. They are the rattle snake in the bush, dangerous when ignored, but easily eliminated when exposed.

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  41. AlexInCT says:

    I notice that you are jumping on CM for trolling, as usual. A quick glance in this thread gave me the following. I kind of HOPE that they are examples of trolling, because if they are not, if they are real, then something’s seriously fucked up…

    So pointing out that people that pretend Israel is the bad guy, when Hamas, which is well versed at using Jew hating media to gin up anger against Israel, even when it is basically Israel defending itself or retaliating for indiscriminate and evil attacks on it’s civilians, is the equivalent of the trolling done by the “useful idiots” that defend Hamas’ evil, Kimpost? Or is your characterization that what we are trolling based on the fact we refuse to swallow that stinking shit sandwich the Jew hating media keeps serving us about how evil Israel is for fighting back while ignoring the facts about why Israel has to fight back as well as how the Palestinians are quite content to not just make up shit, but actually kill innocents to have you Jew haters lend them support?

    To me there is not a clearer example of the battle between good and evil in this shitty world than the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Forget the lies and manufactured indignity by the Palestinians and their cohorts in the fucking liberal media: anyone that not only rejoices at the death of innocents amongst them, but actually puts their own people in harms way to score propaganda points, serves to illustrate the very definition of evil.

    There is also no clearer distinction to me between a freedom fighter and an evil terrorist. Freedom fighters do not put their own people in harm’s way. In fact, they go out of their way to prevent that sort of thing. Terrorists, and especially the real evil ones, go out of their way not just to manufacture fake “death of innocents” stories, but actually put people in harms way, including their own people, all so they can use the tragedy of death to gain power. And it is the epitome of evil when you brain wash your children so you can send them to die in the hopes of killing some other civilians. Palestinians, all of them, fall clearly in that later category of evil. The bullshit excuses by the supporters of this death cult that they somehow have a legitimate reason to support these evil bastards – either because Israel has an unfair advantage due to it’s mighty military, while the Palestinians don’t, or because of the bullshit lie created by the Nazi loving Arab world about Israel stealing Palestinian land – is just that; bullshit excuse making. No people with any real sort of morality would demand anything but for the Palestinians to change their way.

    And I seriously question anyone unable or unwilling to see and make the distinction between Israel retaliating for attacks on it’s civilians, and the Palestinians doing their best to kill as many civilians as possible, be they Israelis or their own.

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  42. Hal_10000 says:

    It is possible to believe multiple things on this subject simultaneously:

    1) Hamas has launched a ridiculous, injusfitifable and stupid attack on israel (rockets are hitting Jerusalem today, which means they may kill Muslims as well as Jews).

    2) israel is justified in responding to these attacks and trying to make them stop

    3) One can still feel human sympathy for the people caught in the crossfire. The image of the dead BBC reporter’s baby is heart-breaking.

    I think PJ O’Rourke describe the situation best. The middle east is somewhere that often two rights don’t make a right. Israel is in an impossible position. If they don’t respond to the rocket attacks, that just encourages more. If they do, that encourages more people to join with Hamas. I just don’t see this ever ending.

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  43. Kimpost says:

    That’s not at all what you appear to be pointing out, Alex. You are reducing a complex conflict to kindergarten level by suggesting IDIOCY like: Palestinians = Evil, Israelis = Good.

    Sadly you are not alone. When discussing this conflict on right leaning forums, this happens a lot. Granted, I sometimes see the same fucking thing from lefties, but one wrong does not excuse another. Why can’t people be adult enough to understand that it makes zero sense to suggest nonsense like “Palestinians aren’t really a people anyway”. It’s particularly pathetic to read from people being born in a young melting pot like the USA. If Palestinians aren’t a people, then where does that leave Americans?

    Let’s inject some sanity into the discussion:
    1. A huge majority of Palestinians wants peace.
    2. A huge majority of Israelis wants peace.
    3. Israel needs to be its own country.
    4. Palestine needs to be its own country.
    5. It’s entirely possible, and just, to recognize Israels right to self defense, while criticizing them for using too much force, when you think that’s the case.
    6. It’s entirely possible to see Hamas as a terrorist organisation and a legitimate partner for peace talks. It’s a complex organisation. Like the Muslim Brotherhood.
    7. It’s perfectly rational to think that the Arab Spring was good, while simultaneously recognizing problems with new and unfriendly governments.

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  44. Poosh says:

    When Palestinians name fucking schools after massed murders and send godamn CHILDREN to blow themselves up, seriously.

    The Palestinians, by enlarge, are not just regular innocents. They’re a brainwashed deathcult who, like many Middle Easterners – Muslims – continue to lay siege to Israel because IT HAS FUCKING JEWS IN THERE. Don’t think for one godamn second this would be happening if the Jews were fellow Muslims. The Palestinians do not want peace. They could have peace today if they wanted. They want DEAD FUCKING JEWS.

    That MIGHT just be why they KEEP TRYING TO KILL JEWS. Just a f*cking thought. Sick and tried of liberal cretin and their religious bullshit concerning Israel, as if both are as bad as eachother, or as if the Palestinians are some sort of victim. They’re not. They’re victims of their own hatred and religion, nothing else. Funny how they’re not bothered about the Palestinian land “taken” by fellow Muslim countries.

    Yes. Fucking NAZIs. The Palestinian youth is brainwashed right at an early age into hating Jews and arab superiority. RING A F*CKING BELL?

    The Palestinians are not indeed a people in any meaningful way – they are only united by hate and the fact that they’re pawns in the long war to wipe out Jewry. I’m not happy with the shit the Jews pulled to get Israel (being British) but it’s 2012 and fuck this.

    IN A FIGHT BETWEEN A BARBARIAN AND THE CIVILISED MAN – YOU SUPPORT THE CIVILISED MAN. Not the culture that praises little kids what want to blow themselves up killing Jews.

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  45. Iconoclast says:

    In what does Hamas believe and what are its goals? (emphasis added)

    Hamas combines Palestinian nationalism with Islamic fundamentalism. Its founding charter commits the group to the destruction of Israel, the replacement of the PA with an Islamist state on the West Bank and Gaza, and to raising “the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine.”

    And for those of you who would point to this, from 2006, I respond with this:

    Hamas says still seeks Israel’s destruction (Mar 12, 2007)

    And this:

    Hamas Prime Minister Calls for Destruction of Israel (May 18, 2011)

    And this:

    Hamas leader Haniyeh: Goal is destruction of Israel in stages (Dec 27, 2011)

    Just because it is allegedly no longer in their charter, it doesn’t mean that it’s no longer their ultimate goal.

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  46. Iconoclast says:

    A huge majority of Palestinians wants peace.

    Unless that “peace” means peace with Israel, and recognition of Israel, it’s utterly meaningless.

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  47. AlexInCT says:

    I think PJ O’Rourke describe the situation best. The middle east is somewhere that often two rights don’t make a right. Israel is in an impossible position. If they don’t respond to the rocket attacks, that just encourages more. If they do, that encourages more people to join with Hamas. I just don’t see this ever ending.

    Actually history is replete with examples just like this one, as well as how to end them. Go back and look how the Romans death with Cartage. Just because we have lost the stomach for these sort of solutions doesn’t make us any better either, IMO. We now think we have evolved into more enlightened beings because we have done away with the practice of breaking a stubborn enemy and in turn pretend that the protracted conflicts that kill and keep people in perpetual misery are a better thing. All it does is encourage more of it. I find this far more cruel and vile.

    That’s not at all what you appear to be pointing out, Alex. You are reducing a complex conflict to kindergarten level by suggesting IDIOCY like: Palestinians = Evil, Israelis = Good.

    If pointing out that people that find “honor” in selling their kids so evil old men can send them to go blow themselves and a few Jews up in the name of a false cause is the epitome of evil feels like I am reducing this to a kindergarten level, then so be it. I don’t give a flying fuck. There is a HUGE fucking difference between fighting for you freedom, killing the people you believe are holding you down while avoiding innocent casualties either amongst the enemy and certainly amongst your people (collaborators excluded). The Palestinians are an outright evil death cult that find joy in killing their own children. Most of them are too stupid to even realize they are nothing but pawns used by insane assholes that are serving the masters in far away places like Iran and Saudi. There is NOTHING noble about the Palestinians. And even more disgusting are the people that want to pretend that they should be given a pass because this is a “complicated” situation. There is right and there is wrong. And the Palestinians constantly and exclusively choose wrong.

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  48. AlexInCT says:

    Let’s inject some sanity into the discussion:

    Sure, Lets do that.

    1. A huge majority of Palestinians wants peace.

    Oh, fuck that. This is a god damned lie. Ask them what they mean by peace before you pretend they want peace. Me, I do not think that the extermination of the Jews in Israel and the extinction of that nation counts as peace. Given the choice I would pick the reverse solution.

    2. A huge majority of Israelis wants peace.

    A lot of good this has done for them. The death cultists keep wanting to kill more of them.

    3. Israel needs to be its own country.

    It has been since it was founded, and then, despite the efforts of so many to destroy it.

    4. Palestine needs to be its own country.

    When this nation was given to them on a silver platter the people in charge of the death cultists decided to not accept the deal because the status quo was more advantageous to them. Not to mention that accepting the deal after telling the death cultists for decades that the only acceptable solution was one where Israel was wiped of the map and the Jews driven into the sea would have cost them their hides as the death cultists rebelled. The lesson here is that when offered that option they chose the destruction of Israel over a country. That’s the facts.

    BTW, I used to think this was a complicated conflict like you do up and until Arafat torpedoed the deal. The scales came off my, and most rational and logical people’s, eyes then. The ones that still pretend the problem simply is that the poor death cultists have not been offered their own nation, are not fooling me.

    5. It’s entirely possible, and just, to recognize Israels right to self defense, while criticizing them for using too much force, when you think that’s the case.

    If people like you also criticized the other side for its real barbarity/brutality, putting its own people in harms way for propaganda purposes, sending its own children to die just so they can bag some trophy Jews, I might feel less compelled to call this utter and pure bullshit. Since that’s practically never the case, I will just call it bullshit. These enlightened people’s criticism is ALWAYS directed at Israel: never at the Palestinians. In fact while the death cultists are killing people the stories gets ignored or presented in a positive light for the poor and oppressed death cultists. Fuck the people that criticize Israel for defending itself from these monsters.

    6. It’s entirely possible to see Hamas as a terrorist organisation and a legitimate partner for peace talks. It’s a complex organisation. Like the Muslim Brotherhood.

    Sure. I would not be surprised that you are going to tell me next that NAMBLA really is all about the kids, because those guys sure do love them. Or that the UN means well, and just executes poorly. Oh wait. You actually do believe that last one. Scratch that. You get my drift.

    7. It’s perfectly rational to think that the Arab Spring was good, while simultaneously recognizing problems with new and unfriendly governments.

    Actually, when you factor in that Obama was in charge, then it is remiss to expect anything but trouble. Unfriendly governments? Heh, that’s like saying Jeffrey Dahmer was just a misunderstood gourmand.

    Poosh got it right: in a fight between evil barbarians and a civilized man, good people side with the civilized man.

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  49. Poosh says:

    You are reducing a complex conflict to kindergarten level by suggesting IDIOCY like: Palestinians = Evil, Israelis = Good.

    accept , if you say the exact same thing about Hitler

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  50. CM says:

    If this thread doesn’t win some sort of internet award for intellectual geniusness, then there surely is no God. I’m printing this one out and putting it on the wall with a big gold star in the top corner. It’s just too good to be languishing in cyberspace.
    This, this is what makes me proud to be a member of such an upstanding community. So proud.

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  51. Thrill says:

    Get your ass to the music thread and blow off some steam, CM.

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  52. mrblume says:

    BTW, I used to think this was a complicated conflict like you do up and until Arafat torpedoed the deal.

    I’ve yet to encounter a single political issue you think is complicated. Seriously. Can you name one? If there is one, I challenge you to write a post about it, explaining why you’re conflicted. I’m not sure that you can. If I’m wrong, I’ll gift you a one-quarter subscription to StratFor.

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  53. Poosh says:

    Evil is complicated. But it’s evil all the same.

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  54. AlexInCT says:

    I’ve yet to encounter a single political issue you think is complicated.

    Not my fault that you seem to lack the ability to logically think things through so they do not have to be that complicated. Certainly not my fault that I need to pretend something is complicated, like too many do, so they can hide either their real motivations or justify bad things, either. Things tend to get “complicated” when people need to make excuses to condone or promote bad things they otherwise would never just come out and admit.

    Seriously. Can you name one?

    One what? Poltical issue that I think is complicated? How about this one?

    How do you save a once great nation from sliding into oblivion once the moochers outnumber the makers and use their vote to give power to people that plunder and punish the makers until the goose that lays the golden eggs expires?

    If there is one, I challenge you to write a post about it, explaining why you’re conflicted.

    Nice try, but as I once told some other shithead that tried this same dumb and blatantly transparent tactic: kiss my rear end. Not in my contract. You would not happen to be Moogoo under a new ID? Anyway, I already posted someting I think is complicated as hell. You are welcome to run with it.

    I’m not sure that you can. If I’m wrong, I’ll gift you a one-quarter subscription to StratFor.

    YAWN!

    And I do not need any subscriptions. I have my own.

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  55. CM says:

    Simple, mrblume, he just works backwards from his existing position until everything fits nicely into place.

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  56. CM says:

    The summary of the Palestinian people found here could have came straight from Hitler. Jews and gays and all other groups were subhuman etc. They certainly could not be considered on an individual level.

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  57. Section8 says:

    So let me get this straight. Hamas was lighting off fireworks to celebrate bless the children day, and in response the dirty fucking Jews decided they were going to launch missiles to kill as many women and children as possible, and in the process just by chance happened to murder the next Nobel Peace Prize winner. Pretty close?

    The terrorists need not look any further for the next round of recruiting. They probably won’t even need to, people will be lining up out the door.
    And around we go again.

    Yes because that’s the best we could hope for from a Palestinian correct? Immediately become a terrorist. What a racist and insulting comment about a group of people. No chance of them handling this in an “civilized” manner, so why even expect it or be disappointed if they don’t. They’re just not even capable of it apparently, and only worthy of having pity bestowed upon them by such a great person like yourself regardless of their actions because they just can’t behave any better. And you’re the intellectual? Laughable.

    This, this is what makes me proud to be a member of such an upstanding community. So proud.

    You’re a member of this community like AIDS is to the immune system.

    Anyhow, I really don’t give a shit about either side. They’ve been fighting over sand for decades, and more power to all of them. Just funny to see the same people that blast anyone here commenting about the behavior of Palestinians in a overtly negative way, turn around and say the exact same thing, except in the form of pity because we shouldn’t expect better. Deliberate attacks on civilians (terrorism) is acceptable by a group who apparently can’t react in any other manner, whereas a targeted response by those filthy fucking jooos to avoid as many civilian casualties as possible is not.

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  58. Thrill says:

    You’re a member of this community like AIDS is to the immune system.

    I shouldn’t have laughed at that, but I’m so obviously hell-bound now that I just had to let it go.

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  59. Poosh says:

    You know what I wish? I wish we could take all the Israelis out of Israel and dump all these pro-Palestinian fucktards in Israel and see them get a taste of reality, let them get a taste of cultural and religious hatred. Let’s see how they deal with these “victims” blowing themselves up in cafes.

    Pathetic watching them pretend they give a shit about “racism” and “bigotry” as they stand by the heirs to Nazism. This is why I always ignore their pathetic claims to morality, their fake feelings for people is nothing but wormfood. They just need their victims, not real victims – that would require them to have some balls, no, fake victims that they can dance around and pretend they are oh so moral.

    This is always the litmus test of course for liberals. REAL liberals, that is, people who really do care about making the world better and raising humans up out of the dirt, real equality and tolerance. always see through the Palis bullshit, and understand Israel as the victims of real hatred and wannabe tyranny.

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  60. Mississippi Yankee says:

    There will be peace when the ‘Palestinians’ love their children more than they hate us
    Golda Meir

    CM, do you also celebrate St. Pancake Day in honor of Rachel Corrie?

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  61. mrblume says:

    Yes because that’s the best we could hope for from a Palestinian correct? Immediately become a terrorist.

    An argument I can appreciate in principle.

    It’s just hard to believe that people who are perfectly happy advocating explicitly targeting civilians with violence (I quote, “There are no civilians in Gaza”) for “educational purposes”, while enjoying unquestioned military superiority, would not do the same when only in possession of some Qassams.

    I guess I’m grading on a curve.

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  62. CM says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  63. AlexInCT says:

    The summary of the Palestinian people found here could have came straight from Hitler.

    Shit, this sure sounds a lot like Hitler calling the allies that kicked his ass Hitler, CM. The fucking Palestinians are evil death cultists. There is no disputing that. No amount of chocolate syrup and cherries heaped upon it can make that scoop of stanky shit that the Palestinians and their quest to eliminate Israel and murder millions of Jews represents, taste good.

    And since you have decided to equate me with Hitler because I call evil people evil, I guess you won’t mind me pointing out you are an anti-semite.

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  64. Section8 says:

    It’s just hard to believe that people who are perfectly happy advocating explicitly targeting civilians with violence (I quote, “There are no civilians in Gaza”) for “educational purposes”, while enjoying unquestioned military superiority, would not do the same when only in possession of some Qassams.

    Well, I don’t subscribe to targeting civilians regardless of where they reside, and no one here should either in my opinion. So yes, I agree on the rejection of the kill ‘em all strategy. It’s ridiculous.

    I do think Israel takes quite a bit of care in making their strikes surgical, but fact is being perfect is not a reality, and I guess if we’re to say their response should be to do absolutely nothing when attacked, then we should demand that from the other side as well, let alone excusing deliberate targeting of civilians in many instances. Making Hamas leaders victims as a result of a response to their aggression is neither intelligent nor justified. It’s unfortunate civilians were victims of Hamas’ actions in this case. Now does Israel fuck up and push buttons from time to time? Absolutely, and that can’t be excused either.

    As for my sympathy for Palestinians, I can understand it to a degree, they got a shit proposal on a UN mapping plan, and when the Arabs didn’t go along with it, they got a shitty deal anyhow,
    but that’s the UN for you. And then of course over the years you get the on going battles which leads to more resentment and it only makes it worse to solve anything. The problem with on going issue is that it always get side tracked into debating the symptoms. The cause is a huge distrust from both sides, and rightfully so, as well as further mapping of land that will be needed to resolve this, and the trust that that any mapping will be honored by both sides, and the guarantee that there would be remedy if that trust is broken… and there would have to be trust that the UN would actually carry out such remedy. And holy shit good luck with that. Just sad.

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  65. AlexInCT says:

    It’s just hard to believe that people who are perfectly happy advocating explicitly targeting civilians with violence (I quote, “There are no civilians in Gaza”) for “educational purposes”, while enjoying unquestioned military superiority, would not do the same when only in possession of some Qassams.

    What a pile of bullshit. So the problem is that Israel has superior military capability? That’s what makes it OK for the fucking barbarians to try and kill Jews indiscriminately, but not for the government of the innocent people being killed to take action to punish or prevent the killing of their citizens? So would it be OK if Israel just fucking retaliated by firing unguided rockets into Palestinian territory or sent their kids to blow up Palestinians? My bet is that you would still find a reason to criticize Israel and give the fucking death worshippers a pass.

    Here is a simple conundrum for you since you like to pretend everything is oh-so-damned-complex: What would have happened if it was the Jews that only had their children and Quassam rockets to use to kill with, and the Palestinians had a mighty force. I bet you we would now have no Jews living in the ME. They would all have been killed after the first bombing or rocket hit. My bet is that you would shed a few crocodile tears for them and complain about how bad genocide is, but then have a good laugh and lose no sleep.

    Maybe it is that you feel insulted that I pointed out anyone that not only believes in the barbarian’s cause, but actively helps them with it, even sending their own children to blow them selves up in the hopes they bag some Jews, isn’t a civilian?

    And no idiot, you aren’t morally superior for pretending to agonize about the fact that the Palestinians don’t have the means to fight back, you are a tool. As history has shown us repeatedly, whenever the death worshippers and their faux friends in the ME thought they had any parity, they tried to exterminate Israel. If you had any sort of working moral compass you would be lauding Israel on its restraint in the face of a genocidal death cult that would annihilate it if the roles where reversed.

    Again, is that you Moogoo? Cause you sure are making me wonder.

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  66. Section8 says:

    The geniusness continues…..on and on again.

    So what other methods beyond lining up to be come a terrorist can we expect? So far this seems to be your expected reaction.

    Help me out here, is that response OK? If so then why shouldn’t that be the expectation of the Jews as well? If all parties are equal, then who cares if the Jews act that way too? Unless expectation is higher for the Jews, but then that would be because they are superior in some way, but that can’t be so, so who is better than whom is irrelevant.

    What it really boils down to for you (and by the way you’re not fooling a single soul here otherwise) is picking sides rather than the “intellectual” bullshit of “civilized” behavior and who has such ability and who is no better than…

    Clearly you have a side, and as such promote propaganda to cast one side in a favorable light and one in another light based on two different sets of standards while still claiming equality in expected behavior. Just cut the crap. It’s neither clever nor genius.

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  67. Poosh says:

    I hear report after report that these innocent Palestinians are angry with Hamas in that they haven’t killed enough Jews. Time and time again they appear on TV to journalists crying over what the IDF did to their homes etc, and how their grandmother was shot – only for a decent Palestinian to take the journalist aside, tell him to not repeat what he’s about to say, and point out there WERE weapons tunnels near their homes and that it was HAMAS / terrorists who brought the IDF shots in their direct.

    Yeah, to an extent I feel sorry for some of the Palestinians who’s kinda rational nature knows that Israel is not guilty here, and they are trapped in “Palestine” with the constant threat of a hamas-approved bullet in the back of a head, or an accidental IDF round in the front. But in a similar manner to how I feel sorry for the innocent Germans and Japanese civilians we bombed in WW2.

    Humanising the Palestinians – the generic one – is fine, in the same manner Downfall humanised Hitler. But you better have no bloody illusions about what these people are, and what they aren’t – and innocent civilians who have no problem with Jews and whose religion is a peaceful one, is NOT what they are.

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  68. Poosh says:

    I smell trolls btw

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  69. CM says:

    Help me out here, is that response OK?

    There is nothing more obvious in the world than the pointlessness of being involved in a discussion on this topic, unless one subscribes to “the pali’s are subhuman”.

    ….and by the way you’re not fooling a single soul here otherwise….

    How can I “help you out” when I’m “not fooling anyone”?
    Whatever I post (unless it’s staunchly pro-Israel and confirms that Palestinians are sub-human) is going to be translated into something entirely different. This had already been demonstrated, and you’re confirming it here again, just in case there was any hint of doubt (there wasn’t).

    I regret posting in this thread at all. If I could remove them, I would. It’s just disgusting and I don’t actually want any part in it.

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  70. Poosh says:

    Look at CM pretending he is “disgusted” as if he’s some sort of moral entity.

    Pathetic. I’m sick and tired of these fifth columnists and useful idiots carrying water for Palestinian terrorists, and forwarding their agenda – and the Islamists agenda. Look at the way CM is trumpeting around the idea that we all think the Palestinians are sub-human. I realise from the last discussion here that CM has the mental capacity of a 3 year old, and that he happily shot his mouth off in the typical faux liberal attempt at indignation, but he really is just a symptom of a far more evil, sinister power that has worked its way into all levels of society in an attempt to turn reality upside down – treating the Israelis as if they are mostly in the wrong or just as wrong as the Palestinians is a total denial of reality and flies in the face facts and reason.

    Propaganda designed to warp reality and turn the Palestinians into some sort of victim, gives shallow liberals like CM et al ample opportunity to wave a flag and their dicks around and say “look at me, look at me! I care about victims, I want to stand up against injustice” it’s really important to him to make sure people understand that, and normally he’ll get that validation – but not from people who actually know what’s happening.

    As usual this is no different than every time murderous Palestinian terrorists – with the support of some of their civilians – lob some rockets into Israel hoping to kill civilians. The IDF moves in to stop this bullshit, Hamas et all deliberately put civilians in harms way, innocents are killed – mistakes are made but a massed core of terrorists are there and waiting to help create the false narrative that the Palis are being treated cruelly by those psychopathic Israelis and their tanks and western-backed weapons. Plenty of staged events and photos follow – it all is spread via the MSM and the social networks and absorbed and consumed by all the legions of useful idiots and irrational muppets that exist all over the place.

    Even worse, now I’m not saying CM necessarily is subject to this, but what we’re seeing is the age old hatred of Jews and how it is affected and evolved in a post-holocaust world. The arabs and Palestinains, especially off camera or to their “own kind” are happy and vocal with their hatred of all things Jewish – that is why Israel must go, because it has JEWS IN. Nothing more, and nothing less (Syrian’s racked up a load of dead Muslims as we speak, but funny how the outrage just doesn’t seem that vocal … does anyone see any massed anti-Syria protests like the recent anti-Israel protests we’ve seen in the last few days?) But the west, we are still haunted by the Holocaust but likewise have not left anti-semitism behind. After all, today, the highest number of hate crimes are inflicted on JEWS, not Muslims or anyone else. But given the Holocaust and popular understanding that one cannot be an outright anti-Semite like before, many in the west need an outlet for that age long hatred – and the Israel /Palestine conflict is such a brilliant opportunity to express your latent hatred of Jews.

    Which is why you hear such blatant fucked-up-ery as “oh, well they strap on those bombs to those kids and send them into civilian packed cafes, because the Israelis and their crimes drove them to do so”.

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  71. Section8 says:

    There is nothing more obvious in the world than the pointlessness of being involved in a discussion on this topic, unless one subscribes to “the pali’s are subhuman”.

    If my goal was to get you to say they are sub human, I would have said well done when you posted….

    The terrorists need not look any further for the next round of recruiting. They probably won’t even need to, people will be lining up out the door.
    And around we go again.

    There was no, “I’m confident the Palestinians will respond in a civilized manner” there was no. “I hope Hamas chooses negotiations”, which that is exactly what you expect from the Jews each and every time, and perhaps that’s not so bad, but it takes two to behave and for you one gets a pass. You basically say they’ll resort to the exact same tactics that have convinced others here that they are sub human which is terrorism. Basically you agree with the sub human argument but excuse it as Israel’s fault, which makes it even worse for you since not only do you agree their only response will be to act sub human, but they aren’t even capable of anything different. Disgusting indeed.

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  72. Poosh says:

    In the real world.

    Probably the only voice in Britain that is sane when it comes to this conflict.

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  73. CM says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  74. CM says:

    Even worse, now I’m not saying CM necessarily is subject to this, but what we’re seeing is the age old hatred of Jews and how it is affected and evolved in a post-holocaust world.

    Why on earth would I not be subject to this? You’ve made up the rest, so why on earth would you decide to draw the line somewhere? Is it because you need to make the characiture you’ve drawn (and seem to constantly rely on) seem somewhat realistic? I’m curious about this.

    I assume I won’t get an answer as you’ll just hide, like the world’s largest coward, behind the laughable and juvenile tactic of talking about someone but refusing to talk to them….

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  75. CM says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  76. Thrill says:

    CM, as much as you say you hate this thread and wish you could delete your comments (four comments ago), you’re certainly doing your best to keep it alive.

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  77. Poosh says:

    Don’t know why I’m responding but

    I don’t actually need to be involved for you to produce, assess, and then pick apart what I apparently believe.

    This is quite a narcissistic thing to say, but it’s typical of things like CM. It doesn’t occur to him that certain people with certain skills or abilities – or education – could actually evaluate him from merely watching him and reading what he says. Of course, we all know perfectly that CM being “involved” in such things will merely arouse denial and protests. In fact, it doesn’t occur to him that others have been asking him questions all along and judging him on his responses… It’s like Gary Glitter caught doing stuff with kids and then being accused of being a pedo, to which Garry Glitter replies “you don’t know what’s in my head, why don’t I get an input? I’m not a pedo! Aren’t you even gonna ask me what I think?!” … no, you just f*cked a 7 year old…. you’re a pedo.

    Why on earth would I not be subject to this? You’ve made up the rest, so why on earth would you decide to draw the line somewhere?

    Here CM is trying to draw fire away from a probably fair assessment of his being by using a fallacy of logic (something he does in every single post he writes ever since he was born) . He doesn’t like the quite accurate description of him so he’s decided to call it a caricature (despite it being quite complex for a caricature, even if false) , well, he’s basically denying it, no surprises there! Do we really expect someone like CM to sit down and think about the root causes of his insane views of the world and change them? rebuild himself? He has devoted so much of his identity and being into the religion of liberalism – which is Palestine are automatically the good guys/ slightly better guys – Israel are problematic and at the very least no better than the Palestinians. He might well be stupid enough to be curious about his imaginary problem, but more likely he’s just trying to present a false fallacy to try and dissuade people. Obviously I do not think I can say if CM is an anti-semite or not, because many people are not anti-semites, – the chances are, he’s not – so one rationally could not accuse him of such, as I did not see evidence.

    I assume I won’t get an answer as you’ll just hide, like the world’s largest coward, behind the laughable and juvenile tactic of talking about someone but refusing to talk to them….

    Here CM is again using the tired old method of whining about being ignored. Completely evading the fact that he’s been told several times in no uncertain terms that he is being ignored and no longer debated with due to his lack of intelligence (of course, he sees this as someone not wanting to debate him because he “wins” all his debates). For example, the last Israel discussion I did actually try to debate him and he showed his standard inability to read words, and made wild, offensive accusations of racism etc etc (which he seems to have made above it seems) due to his stupidity (his failure to read words and understand meaning). He knows this too perhaps, so he’s really just writing the above so that those who have not witnessed him assume he is some sort of victim. He loves his victims, so he assumes others love victims as much as himself: so he must play the victim card.

    Don’t be too hard on yourself CM, look, I’m talking to you now! I’m validating your existence by responding to you, instead of ignoring you as a person. There are millions like you. All of them liberals. You are one of the good guys…. Don’t beat yourself up about it! Go anywhere else but a conservative blog and many, many people will LOVE you for what you say and believe. You’re a regular hero!

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  78. CM says:

    Don’t be too hard on yourself CM, look, I’m talking to you now! I’m validating your existence by responding to you, instead of ignoring you as a person.

    Ah, no, you’re responding to my post, but you’re directing it to your “audience”. Which, ironically, is exactly what someone requiring validation does.

    CM, as much as you say you hate this thread and wish you could delete your comments (four comments ago), you’re certainly doing your best to keep it alive.

    I know. It’s called ‘Doing a Poosh’.
    I’ll leave it here though, promise. Poosh’s last post is a superb way to finish. Satire is alive and well.

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  79. Iconoclast says:

    The summary of the Palestinian people found here could have came straight from Hitler. Jews and gays and all other groups were subhuman etc.

    Well, “Jews and gays” weren’t raining rocket fire onto the people of Hitler’s Germany, nor did they ever strap on suicide vests and walk into German nightclubs and market places for the sole purpose of killing a few innocent German citizens, but the Palestinians and their leadership, Hamas, have been doing exactly that for months on end, so your attempt to demonize those who criticize the Palestinians and their terrorism methods is an epic fail. And nobody is saying that the Palestinians are “subhuman” — you are the only one to use that term so far.

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  80. Iconoclast says:

    Hell, if anybody is treating the Palestinians as “subhuman”, it would be their leadership — Hamas — for using them as human shields for attempted political gain…

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  81. Kimpost says:

    Does it really matter if a evil death-cultist fabricated people is treated a bit subhuman? How some of you guys fail to see the hatred in some of the posts here, just blows my mind. Yes, Section 8, not acknowledging that civilian Palestinians even exist is ridiculous, but exactly that is what AlexInCT has said, yet you basically choose to jump on CM, me and mrblume for pointing that out.

    May I suggest attacking the true idiocy of shiftuser, Poosh and Alex instead? Would be nice to see people from the right taking a real stand against people on “your” side for a change. They are the apparent nazis of this thread, after all. You can join forces with them again when we are discussing welfare programs.

    Meanwhile I’m pretty sure that you won’t find a “leftie” here who doesn’t recognize 1) Israels right to exist or 2) Israels right to self-defence. Discussing the proportionality of responses A, B and C, is however possible, and to disagree on. As is discussing the blockade, how it’s implemented, possible reasons for it, and whether it should stop or just be reformed.

    It frankly pisses me off sometimes to see how much people tolerate from others, just because they are perceived as being on the same team. Frakk* that.

    *) Well, since BSG keeps popping up…

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  82. Poosh says:

    How some of you guys fail to see the hatred in some of the posts here, just blows my mind.

    #

    Perhaps its YOU who is seeing things that aren’t present? Did that occur to you? You’re another one in the last Israel thread who seemed to not be able to read words written on paper and came up with all sorts of disgusting comments, taking lessons from CM perhaps? I remember as it elicited surprise in others.

    May I suggest attacking the true idiocy of shiftuser, Poosh and Alex instead? Would be nice to see people from the right taking a real stand against people on “your” side for a change.

    Why? People on the right attack eachother on this site all the time. There is no “real stand” to take, because their position is similar to whatever degree. Or perhaps you are just upset that some of us were less polite in our description of reality. Maybe you would like a “it was unwise for Hamas to engage in anti-social behavior which caused the Israeli Defence Force to retaliate with extreme force resulting in multiple civilian causalities”.

    There would be no conflict by now if so many cretin did not use phrases such as “tit-for tat” or “proportion of force” and instead called out the Palestinians for their self inflicted wounds, and stopped buying into into the anti-Israel propaganda. The Islamists and Hamas feed off the west’s irrational behavior towards Israel and are emboldened by it. They love it that you fall for the lie that the Palestinians are oppressed by the Israelis and are really just interested in freedom. This has nothing to do with Palestinian self-determination or freedom, it never has. But it’s a nice narrative to feed the ever-hungry west.

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  83. Section8 says:

    Does it really matter if a evil death-cultist fabricated people is treated a bit subhuman? How some of you guys fail to see the hatred in some of the posts here, just blows my mind. Yes, Section 8, not acknowledging that civilian Palestinians even exist is ridiculous, but exactly that is what AlexInCT has said, yet you basically choose to jump on CM, me and mrblume for pointing that out.

    I believe the underlying theme here (with some exceptions) is directed towards Hamas, and their tactics, and the civilians there should be questioning how much Hamas really cares about them. Do you think it’s OK how they fight their battles to ensnare as many civilians into the conflict as possible?
    When was the last time you mosied on over to a Palestinian blog and suggested Hamas denounce their charter entirely regarding

    Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will
    obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it

    .

    Sounds catchy.

    [Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and
    international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of
    the Islamic Resistance Movement… Those conferences are no more than
    a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of
    Islam… There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by
    Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a
    waste of time, an exercise in futility.

    Hmm sounds peaceful.

    http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818a.htm

    Now of course the claim has been Hamas has distanced itself from their charter and now want a path to peace, and that may be true to some degree now that they are in the leadership phase rather than the
    campaign phase, but for a group of leftists who thought anti-abortion campaigning is “extreme” I have to ask? What the fuck do you make of this? And how committed they are to abandoning this doctrine really remains to be seen.

    I can only wonder how “intellectual” this crap would sound like coming from a Christian, which leads me to believe the whole pacifist and I’m smarter than you crap that comes from the left constantly is a load of shit. It’s pick and choose your sympathy for violent rhetoric, and nothing more.

    Meanwhile I’m pretty sure that you won’t find a “leftie” here who doesn’t recognize

    1) Israels right to exist or

    2) Israels right to self-defence.

    Wouldn’t know. I haven’t heard either way from a leftie here besides you. I only see a knee-jerk response when Israel responds to an attack, not when it’s attacked. I suppose the same could said is in reverse when it goes the other way, but then again it’s all about picking sides so let’s cut out the dishonest pacifist phony intellectual bullshit angle of this shall we? As I said, that tactic ain’t fooling anyone.

    Discussing the proportionality of responses A, B and C, is however possible, and to disagree on. As is discussing the blockade, how it’s implemented, possible reasons for it, and whether it should stop or just be reformed.

    It frankly pisses me off sometimes to see how much people tolerate from others, just because they are perceived as being on the same team. Frakk* that.

    Says the guy who is joined to CM at the hip on every issue.

    In the end, I think the people there should have their own state, I think boundaries need to be established, but over history only one side has been willing to agree (on occasion) on any set of boundaries, except for a time when the PLO did try guess which organization said no way?

    Perhaps heading over to an Arab blog and trying to convince them about negotiations to the path to peace would be more fruitful for you? Maybe understand their pain but they are just as responsible for restraint as the Israelis. Or we can just expect them to line up out the door to volunteer to blow themselves up because that’s what they do apparently.

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  84. Poosh says:

    It’s a joke. If Israel gave up 3/4 of Israel to “Palestinians” the remaining quarter would still be rocketed and targeted to death. I think there is a growing anger within the right due to the complete distortion, nay destruction, of reality by the left, liberals etc. This talk of proportion is really just a convert way to paint the Israelis negatively. If a male slapped your wife in front of you, would you respond “proportionately” with a similar slap? If we were *just* talking about the wisdom and strategic errors of Israel none of us would be angered here.

    To be fair far-right libertarians and no doubt some ronpaul types, and your oldish conservatives subscribe to the false narrative of Israel being in the wrong or just as wrong, so it’s the right as well, not just the left.

    It’s the same mentality that thought the constant stream of Islamist terrorist strikes against 9/11 were all because we invaded Iraq/Afganistan even if multiple countries attacked had nothing to do with those wars. They just can perceive reality and draw the most obvious conclusions. The blame always has to be shared.

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  85. Iconoclast says:

    It frankly pisses me off sometimes to see how much people tolerate from others, just because they are perceived as being on the same team.

    There is a group of us who dare to criticize the Palestinians and their leadership, Hamas, and who refuse to see the Palestinians as helpless victims. The Palestinians elected Hamas to be their leaders — can you provide any actual evidence that the Palestinians disapprove of Hamas’ methods?

    Someone from your team decided to demonize that group by directly comparing them to Adolph Hitler, but I guess from your perspective, that doesn’t qualify as “hate” at any level. After all, you didn’t fall all over yourself denouncing that comparison, so I guess you tolerate it, just because that person is perceived to be on the same team as you.

    Sure, there are those who say that don’t care about the Palestinians, and I recall one person saying he didn’t care about either side, but I, for one, am not quite willing to equate apathy toward a people to outright hatred of those people. From my perspective, the hatred is directed toward the mindless waste of humanity taking place in that region, and the apparent complacency of the Palestinians for apparently taking place in that waste, and apparently doing so willingly. It does cause anger when children are killed, so the question becomes: to whom do I direct my anger? Do I direct it to those evil Jews, since they have superior weaponry? Or do I direct it toward the Palestinians/Hamas, who apparently refuse to coexist with those Jews, and who provoke those Jews endlessly?

    There is a world of difference between directing one’s anger toward the misguided mother who allows her children to be used as pawns by Hamas and saying, “Fuck all, I don’t give a shit about those people — if they want to commit suicide, let them”, and saying, “The Palestinians should be annihilated — they don’t deserve to live”. I admit that I see a lot of the former; can you kindly point to an example of the latter? That is what Hitler actually advocated, after all.

    And if you are going to point out Alex’:

    Dead terrorists are great people. And if killing a few makes more, then what you need is more killing. Sooner or later the tools will get the message or be all dead

    Let me remind you that a terrorist is somebody who seeks to kill innocent people.

    If you plan on point to:

    There are no civilians in Gaza. That’s what you got wrong. All these people are part of the death cult.

    Alex is essentially differentiating between actual civilians and pawns. The former are generally protected by their government. The latter are used/sacrificed by their government for attempted political gain.

    I’m sure you will disagree with all of this, and that’s fine. You are a bleeding heart liberal, after all. And if your team cannot persuade via facts and logic, demonization via comparisons to Hitler is always there to fall back on. And finally, I frankly don’t give a tinker’s damn how much my choices of response might piss somebody off.

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  86. AlexInCT says:

    Does it really matter if a evil death-cultist fabricated people is treated a bit subhuman? How some of you guys fail to see the hatred in some of the posts here, just blows my mind. Yes, Section 8, not acknowledging that civilian Palestinians even exist is ridiculous, but exactly that is what AlexInCT has said, yet you basically choose to jump on CM, me and mrblume for pointing that out.

    So pointing out that I am disgusted by the propaganda and the upside down world, where the people trying their best to live and let live but are constantly forced to react to indiscriminate attacks to kill innocents are painted as the villain, while the villain which has neither a problem putting as many of its own civilians in harms way or making up false stories of innocent deaths is painted as the poor underdog being harmed,and that I am not willing to accept that any longer makes what I am saying hate?

    Fuck you and the horse you rode in on, Kimpost.

    I will repeat it: you are not morally superior because you pretend that people that have no problem murdering not just civilians, but their own children, in their genocidal cause of all things, should garner anything but the world’s anger. Doubly so when all you do is provide token protests when the barbarians kill innocents, and then obviously so you can provide yourself cover, while constantly demanding that Israel not only keep from justifiably retaliating, but actually give up.

    The Palestinians have been given a way out. They have not only rebuked every offer, but continue to abide by their belief they will either wipe Israel of the map and drive the Jews into the sea or die trying. I say given the choice, let them get the later. This is not grey and complex. It has been made that way so fucking asshole Jew haters have excuses to hide behind their support for genocide.

    Alex is essentially differentiating between actual civilians and pawns. The former are generally protected by their government. The latter are used/sacrificed by their government for attempted political gain.

    Some people get this distinction I see. The ones that want to keep pretending that the Palestinians are all victims, even after they elected with a huge majority a government that holds genocide as its prime directive, for some reason not only simply refuse to get it: they decry it as hatred that you dared to point out that the evil people have no problem killing their own, as long as it gets them dead Jews and support from useful tools in the west.

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  87. Kimpost says:

    (with some exceptions)

    Yes, and I chose to name them, because the exceptions on this issue are I-N-S-A-N-E. You and I might disagree on degree, but at least we can find common ground in that we seem to regard both sides of the conflict as people.

    The exceptions don’t agree, and most “left-wing” responses here have been targeted at them. Yet you choose to disregard the basis of the responses, by pretending that ours are equivalent.

    They are not. Equivalent would have been:

    “Israel isn’t a country anyway, the jooooos only got it as a gift after WW2. Further more jews are murderous pigs, who have been breastfed with hatred, and they won’t ever rest until their dreams of a Grand Israel is fulfilled. I couldn’t care less about what happens to jews. They disgust me.”

    I’m finding i har to ad through their crap.

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  88. AlexInCT says:

    If the choice is between genocidal maniacs that will not back off that mission, and free people that want to coexist but want security and peace, I will chose the free people every god damned single time. And since I logically see that you can’t compromise with genocidal maniacs because their end goal is to wipe you out, be it in one fell swoop or by a thousand paper cuts, I am immoral or wrong? The people that defend Hamas and their genocidal mission are using the exact same argument that the people that defend Hitler, Stalin, or Pol Pot do: they did some things for the right reason, so they are not all that bad.

    Fuck, I will take it as a badge of honor that you feel I am wrong for having zero sympathy for such monsters. I will save my support and sympathy for people and causes that deserve and earn it. Not for genocidal fucks pretending to mean well. The Palestinian people do not want peace: they want the extinction of Israel. That Hamas runs their government is proof of that. I might respect them more if they admitted that and stoped playing the victim. And I certainly won’t show any respect for anyone defending them and their genocidal mission either.

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  89. Poosh says:

    can you provide any actual evidence that the Palestinians disapprove of Hamas’ methods?

    After one of Hamas’ summary executions for dissent, I think some might pause and give thought…

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  90. Kimpost says:

    Hal writes a post which gets few complaints from lefties. I count zero. TxAg94 comments and gets few complaints. Zero again. Then, in steps AlexInCT providing us all wih one of his colourful insights.

    Dead terrorists are great people. And if killing a few makes more, then what you need is more killing. Sooner or later the tools will get the message or be all dead. The British Empire did it right back in the day.

    CM and mrblume makes one post each but nothing really controversial nor confrontational, until Shiftuser joins the party with his hate speech. Sadly people thought that the post was GREAT, and the debate was dead…

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  91. Thrill says:

    Well, let me jump in on the devil’s advocate side:

    Are the Palestinians hopelessly irredeemable based on the choices they’ve made as a people? I mean, if there’s just no hope of a peaceful solution because they willingly voted into power the group that expressly calls for the destruction of Israel, then what sympathy are they owed now?

    I can see where it’s tempting to say that the Palestinian people collectively deserve no sympathy for what they’ve brought on themselves by awful choices, even if it saddens me to see individual men, women, and children get blown up because they were standing too close to a rocket site that was deliberately placed a block away from a school.

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  92. Poosh says:

    Let’s just move to a sensible, rational discourse.

    Dead terrorists are great people. And if killing a few makes more, then what you need is more killing. Sooner or later the tools will get the message or be all dead. The British Empire did it right back in the day.

    And that’s exactly true in theory. Perhaps not in practice in this particular episode, as Islamic consciousness and Islamic tribalism is the key issue here, and anti-semitism which seem to be a human characteristic that not even the Holocaust can remove. Not just the Empire but our own Vietnam we managed to win buy getting stuck in. I will disagree with you here Alex though. You’re dealing with a widespread massed “perversion” of a religion that demands conflict and the destruction or subjugation of Jews. You cannot bomb that out of people, in fact the killing does, as a point of fact, make things worse in terms of recruitment of those of low intellects (i.e people who blame Israel for the death, instead of those who are actually guilty i.e Hamas, the ME governments that support it, and the civilians who support Hamas). You bring up the Empire Alex but what we did was build institutions which to some affect changed the culture and consciousness of the subjects. You’ll note this seemed incredibly hard to do in Muslim countries which is why the Hindus of India are doing well, whilst the Muslims of Pakistan and constantly sinking back into their degeneracy. You’ll note the former colonies of America kept most the institutions Britain installed there (in practice we’re pretty much the same civilization).

    But what Israel is doing, really, is not so much targeting foot-soliders and trying to destroy terrorist infrastructure and stockpiles, and probably create yet another buffer zone – all designed to keep the murder if Israelis back a few years before the inevitable rearmament. Palestine breeds children into terrorists as soon as they’re out the womb, brainwashing them at a very young age (which is why the Nazi analogy is used i.e the Hitler Youth etc). There will always be plenty of islamist foot-soldiers in Palestine to deal with (though it’s always good to hear children no carrying out their tasks, or sensing their culture conflicts with their natural disposition towards kindess and humanity, I’m sure you’ve seen a few ex-Hamas types spilling the beans etc.) but it’s a problem of institutions and how the Palestinian citizen is constructed via those institutions. All of their institutions are essentially fascist and extremist in character, and speak of nothing of what we call liberty and freedom. What the British Empire did – and what you did after WWW2 was occupy places and destroy the culture, replacing it with liberal culture and enlightenment values < something we failed to do in Iraq to our historical shame.

    The entire problem with targeting killing of leaders is sometimes you do well killing a good leader, but sometimes an even better leader just takes his place (which is why fighting the war on terror with Drones targeting terrorist leaders is dubious). Bid Laden was a mastermind during 9/11 but shortly after he was irrelevant. Internal terrorist politics is deliciously medieval, which I suppose, is an advantage.

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  93. Section8 says:

    The exceptions don’t agree, and most “left-wing” responses here have been targeted at them. Yet you choose to disregard the basis of the responses, by pretending that ours are equivalent.

    No need to pretend, just continue to remain silent to actual charters such as

    Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will
    obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it

    Which isn’t just some dude posting on a blog, but an actual code of conduct for a

    real

    group of people with

    real

    means attempting to carry out such ambitions which affects

    real

    people, and not just some guy’s opinion on a blog which the most harm it will invoke is pissing people off for a couple of minutes.

    I have YET to hear any condemnation of this frame of mind from you guys on the left period. Before Alex even started making generalizations about the entire group, he posted one comment about terrorists (which up until that point would have been assumed to be limited to Hamas). I saw a response from CM and Blume both blaming Israel, so this diversion tactic that it was due to some people here and a response to their rhetoric is crap. The left’s standard response was already in motion well before that.

    As for commenting to Alex’s posts. Do I think all Palestinians agree with this Hamas charter and methods (which you do view as extreme and hateful right? We have yet to hear for any one of you)? No, no more than I think because Obama is president that all Americans love Obama care, but if you want to continue to go down the path of chosen quotes from some people here, how about some chosen quotes regarding a group you have so much sympathy for. That being Hamas. Again, your attempt at superiority is a fail.

    As for

    “Israel isn’t a country anyway, the jooooos only got it as a gift after WW2. Further more jews are murderous pigs, who have been breastfed with hatred, and they won’t ever rest until their dreams of a Grand Israel is fulfilled. I couldn’t care less about what happens to jews. They disgust me.”

    No need for you to talk about the dirty Jews, Hamas is your proxy, and again, I have YET to even hear anything from left challenging any of this. You didn’t bother to do it in your response either.

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  94. Kimpost says:

    Hamas controls Gaza, but haven’t been doing so well in polls lately. Israeli violence (regardless if it’s justified or not) tend to make support for Hamas grow, so we’ll have to see where the support lands after things have settled down again.

    The West Bank is controlled by Fatah. So clearly not all Palestinians approve of Hamas.

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  95. Poosh says:

    Thrill I wrote a passage but just deleted it by accident, thankyou browser. But I basically said we’d be no different if born in “Palestine”. When you’re brainwashed you’re brainwashed. All the critical skills and rationality we have, and take for granted, is largely only available to us due to the western post-enlightenment culture we are immersed in.

    It’s always interesting to note that because, largely due to pesky Western involvement, the Iranians are heavily impregnated with post-enlightenment culture and western culture generally. Yes anti-American propaganda, anti-Israeli propaganda can butcher their minds – as it does to many westerners – but the point remains, it’s the culture. If it was Persians who were in Palestine instead of the Palestinians, and the Persians retained their 20th century culture before the Revolution, and did not bring the Koran with them, we would be seeing an entirely different scenario. Whatever land the “Palestinian-Persians” had would probably be developed just as well as the Israelis developed their patches of dirt. You’d see two highly technical and capitalist countries. And yes, the Persians would probably be subject to bombings because they’re Persians not Arabs and Persians do not belong in Arabia… that’s why it’s called Arabia.

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  96. Poosh says:

    Shiftuser used a lot of generalisations and might possibly be wrong about the dancing in the streets after 9/11 thing (Actually I might be wrong there, I cannot bring to mind the facts in this instance), but he was reasonably correct and not engaging in hate speech unless hate speech is describing reality.

    Though I personally mourn the waste of potential life. That palestinian kid who was taught to hate the Jews in school and taught to lie to the western tv man whenever he’s around, could have been, given different circumstances, a great movie director or a fantastic cook.

    CORRECTION TO THE ABOVE “But what Israel is doing, really, is not so much targeting foot-soliders and trying to destroy terrorist infrastructure and stockpiles, and probably create yet another buffer zone ” should read:

    “But what Israel is doing, really, is not so much targeting foot-soliders BUT RATHER, they are trying to destroy terrorist infrastructure and stockpiles, and probably create yet another buffer zone “

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  97. mrblume says:

    if you want to continue to go down the path of chosen quotes from some people here, how about some chosen quotes regarding a group you have so much sympathy for. That being Hamas

    More and more it seems to me that a fundamental difference between the left and the right is that the former is just a good deal more introspective. I know my values are superior to those of Hamas. Its not just terrorism and not just Hamas. I’ll hardly find a lot of like-minded Palestinians when it comes to gay rights.

    But continuously running around making this claim is simply a waste of time. Rather, the important thing is ensuring that my values are upheld and applied by my side; a side to which I count Israel. Comments like those that we’ve been talking about continue to remind me that this is indeed crucial.

    As such, when we start bombing other countries, making sure that such a thing is justifiable, proportionate and considered is the only thing that concerns me. Certainly a lot more than any chest thumping.

    Since it’s true that I don’t live in Israel, I feel compelled to preempt a standard response: Yes, this affects my perspective. It matters not. If it did, this woman’s opinion (aka a self-hating Jew) would override every single thing any one of you has to say.

    .I saw a response from CM and Blume both blaming Israel

    My (completely ignored) response certainly did “blame” anyone. I was however indeed criticizing the IDFs social media use; Flamewars on Twitter with your enemy is something any self-respecting military should feel itself above.

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  98. AlexInCT says:

    But continuously running around making this claim is simply a waste of time. Rather, the important thing is ensuring that my values are upheld and applied by my side; a side to which I count Israel. Comments like those that we’ve been talking about continue to remind me that this is indeed crucial.

    Right, you just hold Israel to a higher standard than the barbarians. Sure. What I see is Israel being held to an impossible standard while the barbarians get excuses. This level of stupidity is why they so firmly believe they will win. We are our own worst enemy. Our values and our constitution are not a death pact, and we shouldn’t let people that refuse to see this is a problem, turn it into that.

    Hold Israel to a higher standard, if that is truly your motive – and I question that being your motive – but don’t feel slighted when we tell you your motive reeks since you demand Israel be perfect or not react to the indiscriminate murder of it’s citizens. Especially not when you clearly pointed out that what really irked you was that Israel had the means to defend itself while the Palestinians didn’t have the means to commit genocide. War is an ugly dirty thing. Side with the barbarians, like the fools that hope feeding the crocodile others will spare them, but don’t be surprised when they turn on you next.

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  99. Poosh says:

    This level of stupidity is why they so firmly believe they will win. We are our own worst enemy.

    The shape of things to come.

    I find it hard to actually figure out what Israel could do better. I would not have had the patience Israel had.

    An additional point about some of the left – israel is merely an extension of “American imperialism”, so it’s no wonder they try their best to delegitimatize Israel.

    I think it was Victor Hanson who said we don’t have to be perfect, just better than the enemy. Israel can hold its head up high.

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  100. AlexInCT says:

    I find it hard to actually figure out what Israel could do better. I would not have had the patience Israel had.

    That’s precisely the point of these “enlightened” and “concerned” people that hold Israel, and by their own admission, us, to a higher standard Poosh: the end goal is to allow you no options. It’s the tactic that the pacifists and Boosh haters used to cripple our fighting chances in Afghanistan and Iraq as well. Funny how now they not only don’t care, but cover for team blue. I am now 85% convinced we will find out Benghazi was a secret CIA prison run at the behest of the WH which supposedly banned those. But since this one was ging to hurt team blue, they don’t want to know about it.

    Too many of our troops died or suffered terrible and unnecessary wounds in iraq and A-Stan because of ridiculous ROEs that basically all but nullified any advantage we have, while giving the enemy every possible advantage in exploiting our weakness, including encouraging the use of human shields. This enemy is not just smart enough to adapt to our own self imposed limitations, but quite willing to kill as many innocents, including their own, as it takes to let them win. When they realized we wanted to avoid innocent casualties they immediately made it their SOP to put as many civilians as possible in harms way to deny us the ability to react or retaliate. The ones that insist on tying our fighting forces’ hands, and in this case those of the IDF, don’t do so out of any higher moral value. Don’t let them fool you into believing otherwise. Their agenda is to cripple your ability to fight back and force you to your knees. Some do it because they want to see you lose. Some simply because they are stupid enough to believe that if you don’t fight the other guy will stop. The later is what these barbarians count on the most to help them commit their genocide and win.

    Let the enemy set the rules of the game, or worse, let them turn your own rules against you, and you will lose. That’s what the people holding Israel to a higher standard know and are going for.

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  101. CM says:

    Kimpost who do you hate Jews so much? Do you hate them as much as me? We should set up a competition to see who hates them more. It might be difficult to be as creative as the poster’s here, but I’m sure if we put our minds to it……

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  102. AlexInCT says:

    Kimpost who do you hate Jews so much? Do you hate them as much as me? We should set up a competition to see who hates them more. It might be difficult to be as creative as the poster’s here, but I’m sure if we put our minds to it……

    When you only want Israel to bend over constantly, you either hate the Jews, hate western civilization (not the bullshit socialist crap we have become that is wrecking centuries of growth and prosperity, but that old civilization that made the West prosperous and free), or you are stupid. In your case CM, I think it is all fo the above. And your attempt at using sarcasm here falls flat, because it feels desperate and contrived. Moral equivocation of this sort is always based in bad or insane grounds, and requires people to argue that the whole issue is “complex”. What bullshit.

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  103. Iconoclast says:

    How can I “help you out” when I’m “not fooling anyone”?

    Umm, when one is being straight and not trying to fool people, that is when one is being the most helpful. Does somebody really have to explain that to you?

    I’ll leave it here though, promise.

    CM, November 18, 2012 10:59 pm

    And yet, here you are, posting a pitiful attempt at sarcasm, two days later.

    Can you say, “Famous last words”?

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  104. Poosh says:

    Do you hate them as much as me? We should set up a competition to see who hates them more.

    THE LADY DOTH PROTEST TOO MUCH

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  105. CM says:

    I think it’s because they smell so funny.

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  1. Some real perspective. » Right Thinking says:

    [...] Hal’s post titled Hamas and Israel, round 47, we got in a pretty heated discussion with the moralizers that seem to have a beef with Israel [...]

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