An Act of War?

Isn’t that what this is?

The US ambassador to Libya is among four Americans killed in an attack on the US consulate in Benghazi, President Barack Obama has confirmed.

Unidentified armed men stormed the grounds overnight amid uproar among Muslims over a US-produced film said to insult the Prophet Muhammad.

They shot at buildings and threw handmade bombs into the compound.

It is still unclear how the ambassador, J Christopher Stevens, and the others actually died.

CBS is reporting that the staff were moved after the initial attacks but their location was betrayed by Libyan guards.

Right now, the situation is very fluid. Ansar Al-Sharia, an offshoot of Al-Qaeda, is claiming credit for the attacks. But it’s not clear exactly what went on. In Egypt, the Muslim Brotherhood is calling for peaceful protests. We’ll see how that goes.

All over some obscure privately-funded movie.

What is clear is that American soil has been attacked and an American official killed. The exact response can be debated. For example, if we really believe that the Libyan government had nothing to do with this, we can work with them to kill the fuckers.

But a response will be coming. There is simply no alternative.

Update: It’s probably been taken down now, but a video trailer of the offending film is floating around on youtube. I watched a few minutes. If this is what has provoked the riots, it’s ridiculous. As my brother said, it’s just an excuse. The “film” wouldn’t pass muster as a high school play. Honestly, Maons was more professionally made.

Comments are closed.

  1. Thrill

    War shouldn’t be the first option.

    Put the onus squarely on the Libyan “government”. Give them the chance to unfuck it.

    Reparations. Massive reparations. Painful, huge reparations followed by many, many trials and convictions for whoever can be linked to this.

    Pay the reparations or we seize assets. Punish those responsible or we will.

    The host government is responsible for the protection of foreign embassies. We need to give them incentive to do so.

    At least, that’s how countries with balls used to handle these sorts of things.

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  2. Hal_10000 *

    I agree with everything you said, Thrill. But I do think we’re going to have to throw in against Ansar Al-Sharia, in support if not in actual combat.

    Still, does anyone know who is really the fuck in charge of Egypt and Libya? Word this morning is Obama will break off relations with Egypt.

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  3. Poosh

    This is entirely our own fault, for supporting the Arab Spring.

    Even now we’re talking about helping the Syrian “rebels”?

    We don’t learn. Islam is the problem. It has ALWAYS been the problem. Will we ever understand this? Why are we making excuses? Every godamn day innocents are murdered in the name of the religion of peace. It’s relentless. 70+ murdered in Iraq the other day. Islam. Islam. Islam. I’m tired of people making excuses for this.

    Muslim Imperialists reward weakness and diplomacy and “understanding” with death.

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  4. Thrill

    This is entirely our own fault, for supporting the Arab Spring.

    +1.

    I don’t entirely understand what we’ve been doing by encouraging and aiding the overthrow friendly (or at least lawful evil dicators). We’re just kind of throwing the dice and hoping that the people we want to be in charge win.

    At least in Iraq we had a large presence to guide events to our liking. With Egypt and Israel, we’ve given those countries to the mob who really hates us. We’ll do the same in Syria.

    I don’t understand why we’re deliberately destabilizing the Mideast for the sole reason that we want it to be destabilized. I don’t hold an advanced degree in political science, but this doesn’t make sense to me. And the people who ARE supposed to understand these things just let our ambassador get murdered as the result of their policies.

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  5. Section8

    Clearly we should apologize. Our arrogance has angered them and their response isn’t nearly as bad as how Christians would react if some movie was made about Jesus or potshots taken at Christianity in general. Of course we never see Christians do this because the world is way too scared to ever mock Christianity. This is the price we pay for helping invade Libya and training these people through the CIA to overthrow Gaddafi. It’s our lack of understanding and ignorance that brought this upon us. We should hold our heads in shame. After all, we are the real terrorists.

    Hey how did I do? Pretty fucking good leftist narrative eh?

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  6. Kimpost

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  7. Poosh

    We want to destabilize Islamist regimes or regimes that sustain Islamic terror / AND / try to seed democracy (because liberal democracy cures international terrorism, once you change islamic states into liberal states) // AND // we want to maintain a balance of power between Saudi Arabia and Iran, neither gaining the upper hand (because the money they stop fighting eachother, is the moment the shit really hits the fan for us in the West).

    That’s a lot of balls to be juggling. But it did not serve us to have Libya or Egypt become greater tyrannies. As mild dictatorships they were suitable for gradual cultivation and democracy. Syria is a proxy of Iran but replacing Syria with an Islamist, rather than semi-secular, tyranny just to give Iran a bloody nose is not really in our interests.

    Israel, of course, has been thrown to the wolves. I don’t even understand the logic or thinking behind anything that’s happening. One of those countries, a monarchy, eh begins with a B? They want “Freedom”. After a bit of research you find the WOMEN of that country protested demanding LESS RIGHTS AND EQUALITY.

    It’s that f*cked up.

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  8. Poosh

    Obama’s press conference. He didn’t seem to give a sh*t.

    Fair enough to point out (if true) that many Libyans tried to help your Ambassador. I guess. Though he failed to mention Libyan security forces betrayed the Ambassador as well….

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  9. Kimpost

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  10. Poosh

    What I do find, however, are typical Islam-is-the-problem type of posts (in your case, “Islam-Islam-Islam”). Sometimes understandable, because people get fed up and emotional, but hardly very productive.

    emotional? i think it’s very emotional to sit there and ignore the elephant in the room.

    And it shouldn’t shock you that reality is addressed, instead of any complete idiotic bullshit consisting of “it’s not islam’s fault”. What’s the tally of Islamist terrorist attacks since 9/11? Over 20,000 attacks I suspect. Yeah, it’s got nothing to do with “Islam”….

    Hot! Thumb up 8

  11. Thrill

    I’d support overthrowing dictatorships seven days a week, and twice on weekends. I wouldn’t always support military action for accomplishing that, but as a general practice I’d say that dictatorship = bad => dictatorship should go.

    If that means not knowing exactly what we’re getting in exchange, then so be it. Promoting democracy is worth the risk of things getting worse in the short run. Egypt and Syria will become democracies, eventually.

    I don’t agree on this. I didn’t favor going to war in Iraq to bring democracy and I never cared what form of government they ended up with. My opinion is that our foreign policy should benefit our national interest. I believed (and still do) that removing Saddam Hussein was in our interest for reasons I’d rather not re-argue now.

    Overthrowing governments and then just letting the most radical parties in the country sort it out because we hope that they’ll suddenly stop hating us once they’re in power isn’t a foreign policy and does not serve our national interest.

    Ghaddafi was scum, but what did removing him from power do to further the interests of the United States unless we wanted our ambassador dead?

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  12. Hal_10000 *

    I don’t think “supporting Arab Spring” was the problem. We stayed out of all the conflicts outside of Libya. And, in Libya, it was not the govt that did this. Supporting the existing regimes would have been an even greater mistake as I think their fall was inevitable. There simply was no good path to follow on this one.

    Jazz Shaw put it best: “That entire region is a huge crap stew and no amount of seasoning from the US will turn it into a banquet.” We’re fucked no matter what.

    I also have to disagree with the idea that Islam is the problem. Have there been riots in Indonesia, with the world’s largest Islamic population? The riots are very localized. The problem is the region is run by thugs and gangsters, besotted with fundamentalism and easily whipped into a frenzy over some bullshit film that no one has even seen.

    Religion is the excuse; not the cause.

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  13. Kimpost

    emotional? i think it’s very emotional to sit there and ignore the elephant in the room.

    No, even though elephants are respectable creatures, you are clearly seeing them wrong. The elephant in the room consists of radicalism, fundamentalism and terrorism.

    You could of course claim that it’s really Islam, or that Islam is synonymous with those things, but by doing that you are blaming an entire religion for the actions of violent fundamentalists. Why would peace loving Muslims (let’s imagine that such people exist) listen to you?

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  14. Thrill

    Well, radicalism, fundamentalism, and terrorism aren’t “respectable”. An elephant in the room may be a nice creature, but it will wreck your furniture and shit on your carpet if you let it do what it wants regardless of intention.

    Islam isn’t the problem, but pretending that a radical interpretation of Islam and its role in the world isn’t a driving force and even a huge threat would be inexcusable.

    These radicalized populations aren’t going to elect responsible governments. They want governments that will serve the interests of their version of Islam. Simply blessing them with “yay, Democracy” while ignoring the role that their beliefs is playing is going to lead to more disasters like this.

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  15. Poosh

    It’s a stupidity and presumption on your part, predicable given your reading habits, that you arbitrarily – and wrongly – decide that one is talking about *all* Muslims.

    Did it occur to you that many Muslims are very aware of the bad-apples in their religion and actively ignore large portions of their religion?

    They will be the Muslims being blown up every day btw. So I don’t think they need to listen to anyone, the consequences of obeying their religion to the letter is right in front of them.

    Let’s rephrase it. I’m blaming devout Muslims, or yes, fundamentalist – but there are entire populations of fundamentalists, not small handfuls living in caves. And they are now getting their way in Syria, Libya, Egypt. Notice the rise in persecution of Christians.

    We’re dealing with millions, an ideology firmly built on Koranic ideas. The only reason so many Muslims are peaceful is that they reject a good deal of their own religion and are rational or peace loving, or simply know the difference between right and wrong. They use Islam as a religion to gain spiritual sustenance from, NOT a political system. And Islam IS a political system, not just a religion. The sooner you understand this the better. It’s like Communism which is largely religious but also demands actual action.

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  16. Hal_10000 *

    We’re dealing with millions, an ideology firmly built on Koranic ideas. The only reason so many Muslims are peaceful is that they reject a good deal of their own religion and are rational or peace loving, or simply know the difference between right and wrong. They use Islam as a religion to gain spiritual sustenance from, NOT a political system. And Islam IS a political system, not just a religion. The sooner you understand this the better. It’s like Communism which is largely religious but also demands actual action.

    Agreed as far as it goes, yes.

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  17. blameme

    I’d support overthrowing dictatorships seven days a week, and twice on weekends. I wouldn’t always support military action for accomplishing that, but as a general practice I’d say that dictatorship = bad => dictatorship should go.

    If that means not knowing exactly what we’re getting in exchange, then so be it. Promoting democracy is worth the risk of things getting worse in the short run. Egypt and Syria will become democracies, eventually.

    I disagree with this – Hope is not a plan.

    Another cliche – the devil you don’t know is worse than the one you do. There is no reason to overthrow governments we do know – even bad ones – with no plan or control over what happens afterwards.

    Bad, bad policy.

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  18. Xetrov

    But a response will be coming. There is simply no alternative.

    From this Administration? Two months before the election? Yes, I’m certain there is a strongly worded letter already on its way to the Syrian Government. I’m also equally certain it contains some form of apology for the perceived insult to Islam that sparked the nutjobs.

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  19. Section8

    I also have to disagree with the idea that Islam is the problem.

    Now, Islam in general is it the problem? Not likely. Out of hundreds of millions of people you are going to get some bad apples, it doesn’t matter if it’s religion or which religion, or a large group who likes a sport like soccer or American football, or if it was a basket weaving club of a large enough size, you’d get some nuts in there too.

    For me my issue is (as far as the ridiculous leftist narratives I’ve read over the years)

    1) While we hear the left worry about the fundamentalists taking over a nation of heavily populated Christians, and has been heavily populated such as the US, fundamentalists DO run many of the Mid East nations, and DO have backing of enough of the populous to continue to exist, but we should be understanding and respectful of this. Worrying about reality and what exists is apparently ignorant, but worrying about boogeymen that have a very, very long shot is not. Just Silly

    2) My observation over my life has lead me to firmly believe no form of government can survive a populous of the people who are not ready for it. This includes democracy, republics, tyranny, socialism, whatever. We just need to stay out of all these affairs. Thrill, I have to disagree that we should be removing anyone based on our national interest unless we are attacked, or moves are so aggressive that an attack appears imminent. What happens when China and Russia starts doing the same? Then we really don’t have much of a retort about how wrong it is if we are engaging in exactly the same behavior. This is why I don’t think we should have been in Iraq, and while I think invading Afghanistan was entirely just, we need to leave now. we got who we went there to get (I’m pretty sure we agree on that one).

    3) While it may suck to hear women, gays, or those deemed outcasts getting stoned or beaten or put on trial, we have to just remain an observer. Here’s the problem. It starts with sending aid or money, now we’re taking a side, and eventually it either leads to military action, or it’s traced back that we caused an overthrow or whatever and we still get the blame. More importantly though if the populous isn’t ready to change their way of life, they aren’t going to and will revert right back to the same situation. So what is perceived by us as providing a helpful hand is looked at that populous as interfering, and of course then there is the inevitable that the entire thing is for selfish reasons. At best we’re the bad guy. It’s a game we need to stop playing in my opinion.

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  20. blameme

    SHOULD BE ROMNEY’S CAMPAIGN SLOGAN

    Frankly, I have wondered why it hasn’t been. I use this all the time especially around product design or releases.

    Seems applicable for sure and gets to the heart of the matter. Plus, it fits great on a bumper sticker.

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  21. Poosh

    The problem is the incorrect assessment that fundamentalists in Islam are a minority or an aberration of the religion. They are not. They are following the religion and merely doing what has been done by Islam – as a religion and political movement – for hundreds of years. 9/11 lest you forget was day 1 of a 2 day battle fought at Vienna which stemmed the Islamic tide. These aren’t bad apples, or a few nutters. They are a substantial number – not a majority perhaps, but NOT a minority. I’m sure we’ve all seen the horrific stats of UK Muslims supporting Sharia law and violence etc.

    When you’re brought up to believe that liberal ideals, materialism and so forth are evil, and that my version of Islam is good, then when Mr. America comes along and tells you “it’s time to respect women as equals” you’re going to violently flip out – but not just that, you’re going to move into THEIR territory and start damaging them. The idea that Muslim fanatics just react to western interference is silly liberal / Ron Paul fairy nonsense. Look at what they do to eachother. Look at some of the attacks on Western targets (night clubs, bars, all “immoral” targets). They know perfectly well US bases in Saudi Arabia are there in case THEY start to kick off and become a threat to us. They know this.

    Don’t forget that in Iraq and all these countries countless Muslims have flocked to the allied forces and supported them to the end. They understand and want freedom and liberty. The problem is, a lot of others do not want freedom or liberty. They want Islam.

    In the West we have Greece, the rise of Christianity, the Christian consciousness (turn the other cheek, we are individual entities under God, the Truth is the most important thing), which led to the death of God but the retaining of the Christian consciousness (why do so many social-democrats claim to be atheists yet espouse Christian morality (plus the force of the state, whcih is not Chrisitan) and the Enlightenment and the multiple conflicting and competing philosophers.

    The Islamic world has never had this. At most the so called Islamic Golden Age gave a handful of brilliant Arab/Persian individuals who were working from preserved western/christian texts and who bar maybe 2 of them, rejected most of Islam (in contrast to the west where most of our finest thinkers and scientists were all devout Christians who believed God’s mission for man was Truth … kinda backfired eh?). Their consciousness was not cultivated in the same manner our consciousnesses were cultivated, which is why many of them cannot understand the concepts we invoke (i.e freedom, for them = Islamic law).

    Iran is the best example. Huge numbers of Muslims and fake Muslims (Muslims on paper, but atheists) are enlightened but battered down by the Islamist anti-western half. Iran was the BEST place for an “arab spring” … persian spring? Before the revolution Nietzsche used to be translated and read. How many along the US bible-belt do you think have read Nietzsche? Iran, prior to the revolution was sophisticated because it was flooded with western culture, and it shaped them (plus Persian history is superior to Arab, hell the US founding fathers read some of the philosophy of, I believe, the first Persian King, and absorbed his writings into the founding documents etc). It all has to do with the consciousness. Why are there so few Muslims in the US who become home grown terrorists, compared to the UK? Because America actively shaped the consciousness of its citizens. In the UK we have destroyed our identity and replaced it with “anything goes, all cultures are equal” bs. Hmmm , bit of a rant. Shut up Poosh.

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  22. Thrill

    I don’t think “supporting Arab Spring” was the problem. We stayed out of all the conflicts outside of Libya.

    The Obama Administration absolutely did cut Mubarak’s government off at the knees as a matter of policy. The US deliberately helped bring this state of affairs about as far as Egypt is concerned.

    I just felt that this had to be emphasized.

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  23. Hal_10000 *

    Latest information from the Administration is that this was not a random attack, but was pre-planned, possibly with the protests being used as a cover. This is getting more sinister by the minute.

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  24. AlexInCT

    I don’t agree on this. I didn’t favor going to war in Iraq to bring democracy and I never cared what form of government they ended up with.

    If you talk to the military people that know their shit they will tell you Iraq was never about either democracy or the WMDs -although this was a concern to all of them, especially with their asses on the line – but about a more favorable battlefield to deal with the radical islamists. As we can clearly see now in Afghanistan how difficult and ineffective fighting these radicals is there, with the Taliban hiding and getting support from Pakistan, Iraq was chosen because it provided a far more favorable place to grind and kill as many of these radicals as possible, gave us the opportunity to terminate clan Hussein which were all a bunch of loose cannons, while boxing Iran in.

    Of course, when you have a president with a (R) next to his name and the communists, anti-Americans, and the other types of leftards at home, not to speak of all the fucking greedy fucks that stood to lose their money making scams helping Saddam grind his people into the ground and destabilizing his neighborhood, all ready to demonize you, with the help from the bought & paid for press, saying that what you are doing is so that you can actually get the business of killing evil fuckers done won’t make the sale.

    Killing terrorists will just make more of them! Of course students of history know that this is all crap. The British Empire subjugated these people and had them behave. Recent propaganda, by the same people that gave the usual array of clannish third world hell and shit holes a pass by blaming the terrible condition these people ended living under on colonialism, and not the fact that they are dysfunctional as societies in general because of the crap they believe in and do all on their own, to push communism is just that: propaganda. Back then civilized people knew how to deal with islamic radicalism. When it reared it’s ugly head, every generation or so, it was quickly stomped out, and not heard from until some dumb people without the memories of how resorting to this radicalism would play out, tried it again.

    Our problem today is that we have stupidly convinced ourselves that moralizing and pretending that those with clearly inferior societies and beliefs, are the equal to ours. One has to be insane to find equivalency and believe that the principles and practices that gave the west the prosperity, security, and growth it enjoyed for the last century or so, while the leftist murdered over 100 million people with their utopian experiments in the second world, are no better than those of barbarian clannish throwbacks to the dark ages. And our aversion to violence, even when it is clearly called for because it is the only thing that barbarians understand, will be our undoing.

    Obama has pulled a Carter. If we want less of what we are seeing in Egypt and Libya, we need someone that will make these barbarians think twice about the consequences. Not apologist encouraging these murderous lunatics to more of the same. Contrary to the belief held by the idiots that tell us killing terrorists just breeds more of them, what really makes them multiply is weakness. Jackals will attack a wounded, old lion that is cowering after they have been nipping at its heels. They will think twice of doing so though if it kills a bunch of them the first time they try their luck.

    In terms even leftists can understand: you don’t negotiate with the bully trying to steal your lunch money. It shows weakness and encourages him to do it more often.

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  25. AlexInCT

    Latest information from the Administration is that this was not a random attack, but was pre-planned, possibly with the protests being used as a cover. This is getting more sinister by the minute.

    Wait until they find the finger prints of Iran all over this and then decide to appologize again instead of act. After all, the goal right now is to keep things steady until after they have stolen the election. Then they can appologize to Iran even more and throw Israel under the bus.

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  26. Thrill

    This is getting more sinister by the minute.

    This is THE foreign policy Achilles Heel for Obama.

    It gets worse, based on what AoS has been putting together. Warnings seem to have been ignored.

    If you talk to the military people that know their shit they will tell you Iraq was never about either democracy or the WMDs -although this was a concern to all of them, especially with their asses on the line – but about a more favorable battlefield to deal with the radical islamists.

    The part I never hear anyone mention is that we had to get rid of Saddam’s regime so that our troops could leave Saudi Arabia. Our presence there was another one of those things that was supposedly making Muslims hate us.

    As we know, we’ll be hated no matter what we do or don’t do. Support dictatorships? They hate us. Support democracy? They hate us. Since we can’t do anything about it, we might as well focus on making the cost of hating us steeper.

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  27. Jim

    Hal:
    This is a bit of an aside but

    Honestly, Maons was more professionally made.

    Was that a reference to Manos: The Hands of Fate?
    Or is there some movie called Maons I am completely unfamiliar with?

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  28. Seattle Outcast

    In the final review, we will determine that Obama does NOTHING. He’ll talk a bit, maybe even pretend that he’s going to do something,but he won’t do shit.

    If something does get done, it will be when he’s on the golf course and he’ll be clueless because it was done behind his back.

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  29. Kimpost

    Damned if he does, damned if he doesn’t, huh SO? ;)

    My guess is that any action will depend on the details surrounding the attack. I don’t think that Obama is a pacifist, so he’ll probably use military action if necessary. If Iran ordered the attack, then bye-bye Iranian centrifuges. If anything, he’d probably gain popularity in the process.

    If it’s just another vague terrorist plot, then I’d expect a few drones here and there, but nothing more.

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  30. Section8

    As we know, we’ll be hated no matter what we do or don’t do. Support dictatorships? They hate us. Support democracy? They hate us. Since we can’t do anything about it, we might as well focus on making the cost of hating us steeper.

    Now this I can agree. But what we should do is start removing our presence from that area altogether, as well as the Far East, and Europe. I don’t know what the hell we’re defending the Germans from these days other than subsidizing their defense budget, and the EU itself is more than capable of warding off attacks if they choose to invest in doing so, but that should be their decision. Britain we owe quite a bit to, and I can see the ties remaining strong there.

    Also agreed that we’ll be blamed for inaction as well as any action so it’s time we should shape our policy around this world attitude. We’re the convenient bad guy these days. To me, our foreign policy should be more of the we’ll stay out of your business unless you drag us into it (or a very few select allies), but beware if you do you’ll regret the shit out of it variety. If the world hates us for that who gives a shit? Over time this will convince those who want to attack others that they can start targeting more “civilized” countries that will react with trying to understand how they were part of the problem. I’m fine with that.

    The problem is the incorrect assessment that fundamentalists in Islam are a minority or an aberration of the religion. They are not.

    Agreed Poosh, I have no doubt that a much larger percent of the Islamic population would support the fundamentalist nut jobs of their group than Christians do with theirs. Of course that’s why I’ve posted a few posts making a mockery of leftist comparisons that come up from time to time.

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  31. MikieSPikie

    Having a very solid inside track into Iran, I can bear mitness that 70% or more of Iranians are A) persian first and B) loathe and hate their repressive government. However, that 70% or more does not control the military, the basra, the IRGC or IRG.

    We had a chance to help them when they had major protests going on. My friends there were begging for help from the USA. What did OBummer do? nothing, not one damned thing. Which goes to prove he is hell-bent on being the biggest pussy and do-nothing – play golf all the time president in the history of the USA..

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  32. CM

    Another take:

    The victory in the Libyan elections of nationalist rather than fundamentalist forces, and the rise to power in Egypt of the relatively moderate Muslim Brotherhood has marginalized the militant strain of Muslim activism, known coloquially as ‘jihadis’ because of their emphasis on vigilante violence. The vigilante fundamentalists were small but dangerous groups in Muammar Qaddafi’s Libya and in Hosni Mubarak’s Egypt, and both governments reacted by attacking them and arbitrarily imprisoning them.

    The vigilante fundamentalists typically reject elections and democracy, as inauthentic Western imports, and they are headline whores, plotting out attention-grabbing mob actions. These jihadis are tiny groups in Egypt and Libya, though sometimes well-armed and well-trained.

    You could make an analogy to the Ku Klux Klan in the United States, which just has perhaps 5,000 active members. But people like Wade Michael Page, who had applied for Klan membership, can make a media splash by simply shooting down people at e.g. a Sikh Temple.

    One way the fundamentalist vigilantes can hope to combat their marginalization and political irrelevance in the wake of the Arab Spring is to manufacture a controversy that forces people to side with them. I suspect that is what they were doing in Egypt and Libya, in front of the US embassy in Cairo and at the rump consulate in Benghazi.

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  33. Seattle Outcast

    Damned if he does, damned if he doesn’t, huh SO? ;)

    It’s been shown, repeatedly, that killing OBL was the work of his staff as Obama had nixed multiple opportunities to kill or capture him. He was, in fact, out playing golf when he was called in and given a seat to something he wasn’t in any position to stop (think about that one, and then see if you still think he’s actually the president in anything other than name), but could claim credit for if it went right.

    Obama has, in his own books no less,expressed his intentions to support muslims first and everybody else second (CW will now say that the books were wrong, or interpreted wrong, and/or Obama did not spend his youth indoctrinated in muslim teachings). Based simply on his actions since president it is quite clear that Obama will do nothing more than talk, and even then be wishy-washy about it. If he were truly American at his core, he’d be demanding blood and heads on platters.

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  34. Thrill

    Now this I can agree. But what we should do is start removing our presence from that area altogether, as well as the Far East, and Europe.

    Militarily? Sure. But we ought to be able to have a consulate in a country and have an expectation that it not be attacked. We can’t let this stand.

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  35. Hal_10000 *

    Was that a reference to Manos: The Hands of Fate?
    Or is there some movie called Maons I am completely unfamiliar with?

    Not again. Why am I so sloppy this week?

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  36. Hal_10000 *

    t’s been shown, repeatedly, that killing OBL was the work of his staff as Obama had nixed multiple opportunities to kill or capture him. He was, in fact, out playing golf when he was called in and given a seat to something he wasn’t in any position to stop (think about that one, and then see if you still think he’s actually the president in anything other than name), but could claim credit for if it went right.

    I would like to see some evidence of this. I mean, other than random unsourced comments from neocons.

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  37. balthazar

    Juan Cole…. hahahahahahahah from the fucking wiki…

    Cole was a strong critic of the George W. Bush administration and is one of the most respected foreign policy commentators amongst left-wing bloggers.[25]

    Wow CM try a little harder to find an unbiased souce you disingenuous hack.

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  38. Section8

    But we ought to be able to have a consulate in a country and have an expectation that it not be attacked. We can’t let this stand.

    Oh I don’t disagree there. Yeah, my thought was more on the military side of downsizing and place more of an self imposed obligation to defend the US rather than the planet, but agree just about every country has some form of diplomatic representation in other countries and such, and we should maintain ours.

    Of course we immediately got the ankle grabbing response from the embassy in Egypt, and it supposedly doesn’t express the views of the WH, but who is responsible for directing the policy, behavior and ideology to these diplomatic outposts that would invoke such a knee jerk response in the first place? Of course our media seems to be falling in line to make this a Romney blunder for pointing this out, and no doubt the leftist ideologues will march with the tune as any criticism of the Messiah is always just wrong.

    I guess we’ll have to wait and see what Obama does to resolve this which is really what matters at this point. Personally, I think he’s been fairly decent in some aspects of hunting down al qaeda, but we’ll see how he handles this one.

    Not again. Why am I so sloppy this week?

    Shit you’re an amateur. I can easily make several typos in just one post, let alone a couple in a week.

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  39. CM

    Me three.

    Wow CM try a little harder to find an unbiased souce you disingenuous hack.

    Fine, but he’s far more of an expert on what’s happening in the Middle East than anyone here, or anyone else who has been quoted.
    So, what do you think? Perhaps, for the first time in memory, you might offer something up that isn’t just a lame personal attack? Can this attack be legitimately used to help demonstrate that US policy decisions in relation to the ‘Arab Spring’ were wrong? Or was this just a group of fundy whackjobs that will be doing this sort of shit no matter what the US policy decisions were?

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  40. CM

    Libya had parliamentary elections in July, in which the Muslim fundamentalists did poorly, with nationalists winning out. Some 20 percent of those elected were women. A couple of neighborhoods in Benghazi are known for their strident fundamentalism, and jihadis did not allow a couple of polling stations in the city to open (though the vast majority of the city voted).

    There is a small militant cell in Benghazi that has some RPGs and grenades. They have attacked the Red Cross offices, a convoy of the British consulate, and set off a pipe bomb in front of the US consulate last month. Most people in Benghazi are appalled by these extremists. The collapse of the authoritarian government of Muammar Qaddafi has left Libya without much in the way of professional police and army, both of which have to be rebuilt as institutions functioning in a democratic republic rather than as narrow instruments of oppression, control and torture.

    What happened in Benghazi was the action of a tiny fringe, sort of like Ku Klux Klan violence in the US. It isn’t typical of the new Libya, and Benghazi is not a lawless or militia-ridden city. One of the narratives of what happened there, in fact, is that the police may have been *too* heavy-handed in an attempt to curb the militants’ demonstration, provoking the latter to bring out their one RPG launcher.

    The crowds both in Egypt and Libya were tiny. Their militancy is not typical of Egypt or Libya today, both of which are struggling toward more democratic forms of governance. In Cairo, there may have been a failure of policing; police in Egypt feel unfairly demonized because they had been seen as bulwarks of the Mubarak regime, and they often decline to show up to their jobs as a result of this low morale. This police foot-dragging has allowed an increase in petty crime, though Cairo is still far safer than most Western cities.

    The government of Egypt is still pretty powerful, and will likely act to curb the militants, as it did in the Sinai recently. A merely fundamentalist president, Muhammad Morsi, probably cannot allow this challenge from the militants to pass. Moreover, this kind of thing is bad for tourism, a major part of the Egyptian economy, which had just begun improving this year after the turmoil of 2011.

    (same link)

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  41. Mississippi Yankee

    Not to compare muslims with trained circus animals or domestic pets but the same principles apply when attempting to govern them.

    Someone has to be in charge. Period.

    Islam does not lend itself to democracy in any meaningful way. Any Imam can issue a fatwa and completely change the scheme of things over night. We write and comment about this peculiar practice right here often.

    A quick look at the middle east over the past 50 years shows that one strong, firm hand is, for the most part, all that it take to rule a populace whose religious beliefs tend to reach for the extremes. About all that’s left now is Saudi Arabia and Jordan and possibly Algeria too.
    Are they perfect? No. But neither is training elephants, large cats or housebreaking your family dog.

    Carter’s inability to act in Iran 1979 started much of this toxic snowball rolling and the present ‘buffoon’ and his inaction is not going to de-fuse this situation either.

    As Alex and Poosh have said a bully must be confronted but with less than 60 before a very close election it’s “DO, THERE IS NO TRY”

    I notice the ‘usual suspects’ seem to be covering for if not cheering for our enemies.
    Bravo you two!

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  42. CM

    Islam does not lend itself to democracy in any meaningful way. Any Imam can issue a fatwa and completely change the scheme of things over night. We write and comment about this peculiar practice right here often.

    Democracy seems to be working well in Indonesia, which has a 86% Muslim population. That’s over 200 million Muslims.

    I notice the ‘usual suspects’ seem to be covering for if not cheering for our enemies.
    Bravo you two!

    Doesn’t get any more lame or pathetic than that.
    Are you a Romney campaign advisor?

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  43. Hal_10000 *

    The Obama Administration absolutely did cut Mubarak’s government off at the knees as a matter of policy. The US deliberately helped bring this state of affairs about as far as Egypt is concerned.

    I want to unpack the statement a little bit. What exactly should we have done to not “cut off Mubarak at the knees”. His country was in an uproar and his attempts to surpress the rebellion failed. What should we have done? Bomb the crowds for him? I’m completely serious because I want to know what people think we could have done to keep him in power short of massive bloodshed.

    I mean, even Israel wanted to stay out of the whole thing.

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  44. Mississippi Yankee

    I’m completely serious because I want to know what people think we could have done to keep him in power short of massive bloodshed.

    Obama, and your girl Hilary dithered an waited and buried their heads in the sand until the situation became impossible. Mubarak had kept the Muslim Brotherhood inline since Sadat’s death, with our help of course.

    But then again cutting him off at the knees may have been their plan all along. Or a huge lack of foreign policy expertise.

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  45. Mississippi Yankee

    Democracy seems to be working well in Indonesia, which has a 86% Muslim population. That’s over 200 million Muslims.

    Yes just let them get out of line or try to separate and see how Indonesia’s democracy is very like a ‘velvet fist’

    Troll, begone

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  46. CM

    Lame and lame again MY.
    You completely ignored Hal’s question.

    Yes just let them get out of line or try to separate and see how Indonesia’s democracy is very like a ‘velvet fist’

    How convenient.

    Troll, begone

    Yep, that about sums it up. Anything other than an extreme position means someone is a troll. Lame.

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  47. CM

    Let’s see how far this escalates.

    And Tunisia makes three

    Wow, 50 whole people. Insanity!

    I didn’t think you were into waiting? I thought you were hankering for action, shoot first aim later, foot-in-mouth Romney style?

    As usual, the extremists on both sides help each other out.

    Jones and Mr. Bacile cannot be blamed for the violence and death of the ambassador. That blame goes to the perpetrators. Who whipped them up? Ground zero for bringing attention to the movie in Egypt appears to be Al-Nas TV, a religious channel owned by Saudi Arabian businessman Mansour bin Kadsa. A TV show presented by anti-Christian, anti-Semitic host Khaled Abdullah before the violence showed what he said were clips from the film, which he insisted was being produced by the United States and Coptic (Egyptian) Christians.

    The clip, dubbed from the US film into Arabic, was certainly inflammatory. It shows Muhammad as a grinning fool, talking to a donkey and dubbing it “the first Muslim animal.” Max Fisher found a 14-minute video of the movie in English that is even worse, one badly acted anti-Islamic caricature after another, with all Muslims portrayed as cartoonishly violent and depraved child rapists, and a running “joke” that constantly calls Muhammad “the bastard of the unknown father.”

    http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Backchannels/2012/0912/US-Ambassador-murdered-as-extremists-on-all-sides-win-again

    The video has already been out for a month apparently. It might even be a cobbled-together collection of scenes from other videos, with overdubbing. Weird.

    Like I’m the first person to ever call you a troll. Prolly not the first person today!

    All for the same non-reason too. Wow!

    Ooops, there’s the call to prayer. Gotta run.

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  48. Kimpost

    It’s been shown, repeatedly, that killing OBL was the work of his staff as Obama had nixed multiple opportunities to kill or capture him. He was, in fact, out playing golf when he was called in and given a seat to something he wasn’t in any position to stop (think about that one, and then see if you still think he’s actually the president in anything other than name), but could claim credit for if it went right.

    Why is it that politicians you disagree with, rarely seem to be normal people who happen to hold differing views on subjects you think are important? Do they really have to be either evil masterminds or puppets with no will of their own? The notion of an un-knowing golf playing Obama being invited to a party he couldn’t have stopped actually makes sense to you?

    Obama has, in his own books no less,expressed his intentions to support muslims first and everybody else second (CW will now say that the books were wrong, or interpreted wrong, and/or Obama did not spend his youth indoctrinated in muslim teachings).

    You mentioned the same thing a couple of weeks ago, without backing it up. Obama’s expressed no such thing. And “indoctrination in Muslim teachings”? When and how did that happen?

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  49. Xetrov

    You could make an analogy to the Ku Klux Klan in the United States, which just has perhaps 5,000 active members.

    Which is something like 1/1000th of a percent of the US population. Yemen has less than 10% of the US population (about 25 million). So for that analogy to work, less than 500 people in the country had to either participate in, or support what happened. That’s Bullshit.

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  50. balthazar

    So, what do you think? Perhaps, for the first time in memory, you might offer something up that isn’t just a lame personal attack?

    When you deserve something more, I’ll give such.

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  51. CM

    Which is something like 1/1000th of a percent of the US population. Yemen has less than 10% of the US population (about 25 million). So for that analogy to work, less than 500 people in the country had to either participate in, or support what happened. That’s Bullshit.

    That’s your problem with the analysis? That the rough numbers given in the analogy don’t quite apply to what is happening in Yemen? Really? From what I’ve seen, the prostesters in Yemen were “in the hundreds”. The crowd at the American embassy was tiny by Egyptian protest standards. And just because people don’t participate in the KKK, doesn’t mean they don’t support them.

    In opinion polling in Eastern Libya, the United States has a 90% favorability rating, while the Salafis or hard line Muslims stand at only 28% favorable.

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