“Vile” Does Not Begin To Cover It

There is an old lawyer joke that goes something like this ,” When the facts are against you, argue the law, when the law is against you, argue the facts, when both the facts and the law are against you, call opposing council a schmuck”. The Dems, by their own doing, have been left little options but to call the opposition names.

I’ll leave it up to Hal to cover the DNC. Personally I think most of those guys are beyond contempt, and ordinarily would watch strictly for the comedic affect, but this go round has left them pretty surly due to lack of options they have left.

The Prevailing RNC attitude as put forth by the speakers was that Obama is a failure, by definition I guess that could be considered negative, the proof is in the pudding, you can’t gloss over facts. And even here, this is not name calling but more a reflection of his record.But folks, we ain’t seen nothing yet wrt sure nastiness and ad hominem’s. The convention has not even started yet, but crazy is not something you work up to:

Greetings from the California delegation breakfast at the DNC where before he had a cup of coffee Democratic Party Chair John Burton – much like his ol’ palGuv Jerry Brown once did – just compared the Republicans to Nazi propagandist Joseph Goebbels, for “telling the big lie,” a reference to several falsehoods GOP VP nominee Paul Ryan recently told.

An isolated incident you think? Please!!!!

“It’s like Hitler said, if you’re going to tell a lie, tell a big lie, and if you tell it often enough and say it in a loud enough voice, some people are going to believe you,” Lehman said.

What is this natural affinity Dems have for the Nazi’s? Could it have anything to do with a jealous admiration concerning a manipulation of the masses? I get the feeling that after this convention is over, there is going to be a whole lot of apologies needed.

But don’t think that going the Godwin route will give us any respite from the old tired racist rants, they will never abandon that tactic. Still waiting for that crazy lady from Texas that wears the bright red cowboy hat to chime in.

Even fictional characters are getting the treatment:

At an event for youth held Monday afternoon at the Democratic National Convention Patrick Gaspard, executive director of the Democratic National Committee (DNC), compared 2008 Vice Presidential candidate Sarah Palin to Lord Voldemort, the villian in the Harry Potter book and movie series.

Too bad Goldwater is dead, otherwise they would be trashing his name as well.

The other night I was watching O’Reilly, a debate was raging between two political operatives, one from each party and while the GOPer was talking about the economy/jobs/reduced wages/entitlements, the Dem guy could not get out of his own way of talking about Romney and his taxes, when is he going to release his tax returns, it was comical.

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  1. salinger

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  2. richtaylor365 *

    Do we have to talk about it for a week now?

    What are you talking about? The Burton comment was made yesterday, or are you talking about the Ryan/plant closing controversy?

    Are the Republicans willing to own every crackpot thing one of their elected officials says?

    Two Nazi references and one comparison to Voldemort, all in the span of one day. Yeah, it doesn’t rate high on the uterus scale, and yes, spending time on political gaffes would involve massive computing power to catalogue, but this is a blog, tomorrow we will be on to something else, maybe this.

    Sure beats talking about shit that matters.

    You mean like this, I think it qualifies as “shit that matters”.

    So sorry. Please take my money to bail out a bank or private equity firm now.

    you didn’t learn your lesson with Solyndra?

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  3. salinger

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  4. richtaylor365 *

    Maybe this is a problem with all Dems, not being able to focus on the topic at hand. My post had nothing to do with lies, yet you keep bringing it back to that, even talking about the Ryan/plant closing lie, which btw I have never made a comment about. Come on, I know you can multi task, and differentiate between two things at once.

    Regarding your question, for me? No, I am not better off then I was 4 years ago, if the single criteria is personal wealth. I’m not complaining (for myself) because I am still in pretty good shape and probably qualify as a one percenter, but on paper I was better off 4 years ago. But I never considered my personal situation synonymous with that of the country, do you?

    You know – the debt thing just doesn’t do it for me because the Republicans have been just as -if not more – culpable in running it up.

    Let me get this straight, you are so partisan that something as catastrophic as the out of control national debt does not blow up your skirt because you don’t have an available villain to blame it on? Regardless of who is to blame or who caused it, don’t you think it is something to worry about and address?

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  5. Mississippi Yankee

    So sorry. Please take my money to bail out a bank or private equity firm now.

    you didn’t learn your lesson with Solyndra?

    Evidently he has yet to learn/figure out why he was replaced by YOU. Complex concepts were never his strong suite.
    The messianic hold has always been strong on him too.

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  6. salinger

    Maybe this is a problem with all Dems, not being able to focus on the topic at hand. My post had nothing to do with lies, yet you keep bringing it back to that, even talking about the Ryan/plant closing lie,

    First off – you brought up the Ryan plant closing thing.

    Secondly – my point, which I see I didn’t make clear enough – was looking closer at the lies or non-lies through objective analysis is thrown out the window in favor of indignation over a stupid comment. btw – I am not a registered Dem.

    I’ve been harping about this for months now – whether it was the Romney – corporations are people – or the You Didn’t Build That hysteria – this manufactured outrage drowns out any fact checking that may actually matter.

    Evidently he has yet to learn/figure out why he was replaced by YOU. Complex concepts were never his strong suite.
    The messianic hold has always been strong on him too.

    i have no idea what this is supposed to mean.

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  7. richtaylor365 *

    First off – you brought up the Ryan plant closing thing.

    I did? Where?

    Secondly – my point, which I see I didn’t make clear enough – was looking closer at the lies or non-lies through objective analysis is thrown out the window in favor of indignation over a stupid comment.

    You have to remember what you are reading. This is not a newspaper, it is a blog, we grab stuff, sometimes inane silly stuff, and run with it. There is no real indignation here, the two Nazi references plus one Voldemort reference, all in one day, that is stuff to make fun of, that’s what we do here. And if you want “objective analysis”, the other post where CM and Icon dissected the Ryan/plant closing brouhaha, they got into it pretty deep, that did not satisfy you?

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  8. salinger

    Let me get this straight, you are so partisan that something as catastrophic as the out of control national debt does not blow up your skirt because you don’t have an available villain to blame it on? Regardless of who is to blame or who caused it, don’t you think it is something to worry about and address?

    What are you talking about? How do you get to here from what I said? Doubting the sincerity of the Republicans to do anything about the debt – based on their past performance is partisan?

    Of course it is something to worry about – and it is something I do not see either side fixing. So right now all I can do is make sure I carry no personal debt while I keep other options open.

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  9. salinger

    I did? Where?

    Here is the first mention of it i this thread.

    What are you talking about? The Burton comment was made yesterday, or are you talking about the Ryan/plant closing controversy?

    Seems you inferred it on my comment.

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  10. richtaylor365 *

    You said

    You know – the debt thing just doesn’t do it for me

    Then, you said

    Of course it is something to worry about

    So which is it?

    Regardless of who is to blame, does it qualify as “shit that matters”, given your contradictory answers, I don’t know where you stand.

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  11. salinger

    There is no real indignation here, the two Nazi references plus one Voldemort reference, all in one day, that is stuff to make fun of, that’s what we do here.

    Fair enough. I’m just really tired of the sensationalism when the actual issues are pretty sensational themselves. Sorry if it seemed like I was jumping down your throat.

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  12. salinger

    Regardless of who is to blame, does it qualify as “shit that matters”, given your contradictory answers, I don’t know where you stand.

    of course it matters – my statement means that the debt crisis doesn’t sway me into thinking the Republicans have the answer – that’s what I meant by not doing it for me. Raising the debt crisis issue doesn’t cause me to lean either way since i don’t believe either party is going to do anything about it.

    And this is really a bigger mark against the Dems – since they are the party of record who has most recently decreased the debt.

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  13. richtaylor365 *

    Seems you inferred it on my comment.

    Only by your confusing claim that we have been talking about “it” for a week, when the subject of my post occurred yesterday. My post had nothing to do with any lies, including the Ryan’plant closing controversy.

    since they are the party of record who has most recently decreased the debt.

    You will have to explain that one for me.

    And regarding your poll about all of us here and whether each individually is better off or worse then 4 years ago, do you really think this is an accurate barometer for the condition of the nation, or was that just for fun?

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  14. salinger

    Only by your confusing claim that we have been talking about “it” for a week

    Man, I’m swinging and missing a bunch here. What I meant was: Do we have to talk about this Nazi stuff for the next week now. If I had meant the past week I would have said Did we have to talk about it for a week.

    And regarding your poll about all of us here and whether each individually is better off or worse then 4 years ago, do you really think this is an accurate barometer for the condition of the nation, or was that just for fun?

    No – I am really interested. The majority of folks I know are doing better. And driving around today I saw a whole lot more help wanted signs outside of the small businesses in my area than I did four years ago. I don’t know if it would be an accurate barometer for the nation – but it certainly would be an interesting exercise.

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  15. repmom

    Seems to me it’s an example of different rules applying to different folks, but you go ahead and call it what you want, Salinger.

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  16. richtaylor365 *

    Do we have to talk about this Nazi stuff for the next week now.

    Of course not. As I said before, it was good for a laugh but hardly worthy of a 100 plus comment post.

    Regarding your topic, aside from the usual barometers that are handy ( unemployment percentages, number of folks out of work ,number of folks on public assistance, median household income, price of gas and stuff we need like food and utilities) these clearly point to worse times now. I don’t have the foreclosure figures at hand but I suspect that they are still pretty bad. Yes, our stock market is up but how about the rest of the world markets? The international portion of my portfolio is down. It is harder to get a loan now. I would even suspect that apathy is up while optimism for what lies ahead is down. I would suspect that the majority of folks here are older/more established/more comfortable in their station in life then the average person but I would not be surprised if most answered ,”If I am doing better, it is marginal at best”…………….I could be wrong.

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  17. CM

    Regarding your topic, aside from the usual barometers that are handy ( unemployment percentages, number of folks out of work ,number of folks on public assistance, median household income, price of gas and stuff we need like food and utilities) these clearly point to worse times now.

    Personally I would think comparing two precise points in time isn’t the best barometer to use. The best measure would surely be a trend (on all those things) starting well before Obama took over and ending right now (or even using projections a little way ahead).

    Even then though it gets quickly into a distortion…e.g:

    The next statement Ryan made was that in 1980 “330,000 businesses filed for bankruptcy. Last year, under President Obama’s failed leadership, 1.4 million businesses field for bankruptcy.”

    This is not true. According to American Bankruptcy Institute, under Carter 331,264 businesses and non-businesses filed for bankruptcy. That number includes not just businesses, but personal bankruptcies as well. In 1980, there were 43,694 business bankruptcies and 287, 570 non-business bankruptcies.

    Ryan also got it wrong with regard to the number of business bankruptcies last year. In 2011, there were 1, 410, 653 total bankruptcies. Of that number 47,806 were business bankruptcies and 1,362,847 were non-business bankruptcies.

    So did he misspeak or purposefully manipulate the data to make it sound worse?

    “He obviously misspoke, but it’s still an apples to apples comparison,” Ryan spokesman Brendan Buck said. “The point remains: bankruptcies are up dramatically under President Obama compared to the Carter years.”

    Yet it’s important to note that bankruptcies are down dramatically under President Obama, compared to the Bush years.

    Business bankruptcies hit a record 71,549 in 1991, when George H.W. Bush was president, second only to 1985, under Reagan, when 71,277 businesses filed.

    Also, compare unemployment trend lines with the rest of the world. Last time I looked the US trend looked better than the UK trend.
    http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Global/content/icons/2012/2/3/1328301754416/unemployment-us_uk_460.jpg

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  18. repmom

    This is a good example of the “gotchya” stuff that kills a conversation. Repmom, I simply gave context to my interest when specifically asked about it.

    I’m sorry, Salinger, but, at the risk of derailing the discussion once again, I’m going to have to call “crap” on this.

    Rich didn’t ask you anything about the people you know and how they are doing. But it didn’t stop you from telling us, even though you specifically said we couldn’t mention friends or family.

    but it certainly would be an interesting exercise.

    What would be so interesting about it? You were pretty sure of the answers already. It’s pretty obvious from other discussions/conversations that the handful of people that hang out here are doing okay. No one seems to be suffering. But you had no interest in our friends or family members, because you might not get the answers you were after.

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  19. repmom

    In answer to your question, my husband and I are doing about the same. Like Rich mentioned, we are part of the retired group, did so about six years ago with a large savings account, so we’re doing fine. Hopefully, it stays that way, but no guarantees, for sure.

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  20. Seattle Outcast

    On a personal level, I’m slightly worse off than I was 4 years ago, but I make enough that it isn’t a hardship.

    On a national level, unemployment is still over 8%, the debt is at record levels, more people are on government assistance than in decades, and nobody trusts the economy. As a nation, we are worse off than we were 4 years ago.

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  21. Hal_10000

    On a national level, unemployment is still over 8%, the debt is at record levels, more people are on government assistance than in decades, and nobody trusts the economy. As a nation, we are worse off than we were 4 years ago.

    I don’t think you can make the case that we as a nation are worse off than we were four years ago. Four years ago, we were in an epic economic meltdown that would send unemployment into double digits and give us a quarter of -8% annualized growth. You’re going give Obama negative marks compared to that?

    The question is meaningless. What matters is could we be in better shape now? What matter is the next four years. I’m previewing my next two big posts but even if you give Obama all the credit in the world for stopping a depression, there is no evidence that he can create the conditions for an economic resurgence. And plenty of evidence that he can’t.

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  22. Seattle Outcast

    I’d argue that we were also in a position to recover from the mess we were in. Obama’s Keynesian economics on steroids and non-stop caving in to unions have put us in a position of having to endure a constant economic shithole with no relief in sight.

    Hope is in fucking short supply at this moment.

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  23. Xetrov

    I personally am about the same, if not a little worse off. I’ve received my standard 3% “cost of living increase” each year at the job, other than 2008 when there was no increase.

    But since Obama’s chief “accomplishment” of the last four years was Obamacare – My insurance providers have gone from two choices to one, plans from 7 to 3, the 100% full coverage option is history, and the cost of every plan that’s left has tripled. In fact the cheapest “consumer choice” (60%) plan is now more expensive than the 100% full coverage option was in 2008. But hey, at least I can keep my 24 year old on my insurance. Yay Obamacare.

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  24. salinger

    I’m sorry, Salinger, but, at the risk of derailing the discussion once again, I’m going to have to call “crap” on this.

    Rich didn’t ask you anything about the people you know and how they are doing. But it didn’t stop you from telling us, even though you specifically said we couldn’t mention friends or family.

    You know – you seem like a nice lady and i really don’t want to get in a pissing match with you but I do think this is a perfect example of derailing what could be a constructive criticism.

    You say because Rich didn’t specifically ask about my friends or family – by mentioning them I am somehow playing by a different set of rules. I see it differently. Rich asked if my question about people being better off or not was a joke or if i had a reason behind it so I gave that reason after I was asked for it.

    So the only rule I broke was the unwritten rule of RTFTLC to not address whatever is asked of you.

    You see what I am saying? The only reason I brought up these other details was because Rich asked for the reason I was interested in people’s thoughts on the matter. So – I gave that requested background info – ( as I interpreted the request) and it was used as a springboard for an insult about playing by different rules.

    Obviously you’ve interpreted his question differently – how would you have answered it in my shoes?

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  25. repmom

    Seriously, Salinger.

    First off, you accuse me of derailing your conversation, and yet, you derailed Rich’s whole post about Nazi name calling with your insistence of talking about Ryan’s “lies”.

    Those were discussed in the RNC thread, forever. Hal took on Ryan’s “lies” point by point. I see no comment, or further discussion, from you in that thread. Some 98 comments there, and the only ones I see from you are a few jabs on Fox News. Yet here you are, insisting the lies be discussed in this post, rather than the name calling.

    I suggest you go back to that thread and continue that discussion there.

    So the only rule I broke was the unwritten rule of RTFTLC to not address whatever is asked of you.

    You’re trying to address everything BUT the topic of Rich’s post. You want to discuss the economy, and how people are doing. But, you’re only interested in the few people here, not their friends or family. Why is that? I stand by my comment that you already knew the answers.

    Your comments seemed hypocrital to me, because you made a point of saying you wanted to hear about how we were all doing, but commenting on others we knew was not allowed in your little exercise, and then you commented on your friends, so I called you on it.

    Rich asked you if you really thought the few people here were representative of the state of the country. I don’t see that your reply concerning everyone you know answered that question, but if you insist it explained your interest, so be it. I can only assume you consider everyone here part of “your friends”.

    Whatever. I have errands to run.

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  26. Iconoclast

    Do we have to talk about it for a week now?

    You personally don’t have to do anything except pay taxes and die, sali.

    Repmom is correct: You’ve got balls to “caterwaul” about derailments when your whole purpose here appears to be derailing Rich’s discussion, starting with the very first posting in this thread. You don’t wanna talk about how vile your team can be? Fine. Go elsewhere, and discuss elsewhat.

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  27. salinger

    First off, you accuse me of derailing your conversation, and yet, you derailed Rich’s whole post about Nazi name calling with your insistence of talking about Ryan’s “lies”.

    This is not true – I never mentioned anybodies lies in my first response – you’ll have to un-hide it to see it. I said I thought all the jumping up and down over Godwins law as well as over the manufactured slights from both sides was a waste of time. So rather than derail the conversation – my comment basically was that the conversation itself was a waste of time.

    Rich then brought up the plant closing lie or non-lie controversy because I said fact checking both campaigns would be time better spent. I responded by saying I was more interested in other alleged lies and cited which.

    You’re trying to address everything BUT the topic of Rich’s post.

    Again – I addressed it by saying I thought the topic a waste of time. That’s my opinion and one that Rich responded to well enough that I apologized if it seemed I jumped down his throat. But – I still think these hissy fits are useless.

    Your comments seemed hypocrital to me, because you made a point of saying you wanted to hear about how we were all doing, but commenting on others we knew was not allowed in your little exercise, and then you commented on your friends, so I called you on it.

    I think I explained myself pretty clearly.

    Because of what I have seen around me, I asked the “are you better off” question (this was the background info I gave per Rich’s request)
    I did not know if the answers given here would be an accurate barometer for the nation
    I thought it would be interesting information.

    Do you really think I am a dishonest hypocritical person? That’s too bad if you do – ’cause I try pretty hard to be up front here.

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  28. salinger

    You don’t wanna talk about how vile your team can be?

    Number one – I’m not on anybodies’ team.

    Number two I would rather not spend a whole lot of time talking about how vile either “team” can be. I am sick of the manufactured outrage and pumped up slights from all corners.

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  29. Iconoclast

    Number one – I’m not on anybodies’ team.

    I was speaking figuratively and taking poetic license. I knew full well that you would deny being on a “team”, but that doesn’t necessarily mean you aren’t on one.

    Number two I would rather not spend a whole lot of time talking about how vile either “team” can be. I am sick of the manufactured outrage and pumped up slights from all corners.

    So that gives you the right to derail other people’s discussions then? Your personal feelings allow to to try and drown out Rich’s voice?

    If you don’t like the discussion, don’t participate. That is the civil choice. Read other threads, read other blogs, no one is forcing you to read this thread, sali.

    Or take the uncivil route and try to derail the discussion to a topic of your own choosing. You do have the right to be a pompous ass, after all.

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