Competition Will Not Be Tolerated

This surfaced a few weeks ago, but it’s worth bringing up:

In Louisiana, there’s a new voucher system to help poor kids get out of failing schools. Students who come from households with income below 250 percent of the poverty line who are enrolled in public schools that have been rated C, D, or F by the state accountability system are eligible for a Student Scholarship for Educational Excellence—a voucher they can apply toward tuition at a private school of their choice.

Needless to say, the teachers unions aren’t thrilled about the prospect of kids bailing out of schools under union control and taking their funding with them. The union sued, but on July 10, a Baton Rouge court refused to stop the law from going into effect, so the teachers union launched Plan B: Bully private schools by sending them threatening legal letters, so that they will be afraid to accept students bearing the new vouchers. The union’s lawyers, Blackwell & Associates, sent out nastygrams to 95 private schools.

You can read the letter at reason.

This is pure legal thuggery. Any lawyers out there can comment, but I can’t imagine a school can be sued for participating in a legal, court-sanctioned state program. The unions are hoping that the private schools, most of whom can’t afford a legal fight, will buckle under the pressure and the voucher program will be gutted from within.

It’s a times like this I really wish Louisiana had a loser pays system. Imagine the teacher’s unions having to forget out legal funds to 95 schools they tried to threaten.

Comments are closed.

  1. Seattle Outcast

    The solution to the nation’s education problem is actually quite simple.

    1) Eliminate the DOE, along with matching federal funds

    2) Eliminate all public schools, and phase into a voucher program very quickly

    This will have the immediate effect of busting all the unions, which will save billions nationwide, and introducing the profit motive for schools as a business on a massive scale.

    Private schools do a better job of educating, and always have.

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  2. salinger

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  3. Seattle Outcast

    That must be why nobody wants to send their kids to private schools if they can afford it, ’cause, as we we all know, private educational institutions across country turn out sub-standard graduates, and that all of our supreme court justices studied law at Oregon State or UCLA, or UW, and not ivy league colleges that are privately owned.

    Also there is a massive amount of evidence that shows that union run pubic schools, heavily subsidized by DOE funds outperform all private schools by so much that most locales are considering banning them as a public health hazard.

    Why don’t you try more asinine rhetoric someplace else?

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  4. Section8

    This is the surest way to make sure we have the most undereducated populace (as a whole) in the world.

    What business model were you suggesting? Enron, Solyndra , Bear Stearns…?

    Maybe he was thinking of the current government run models with fail to graduate rates reaching 50% in some areas? Bottom of the barrel math and science assessments despite the huge amount of money dumped into these systems? A system where the standard cure is to always pour in more money, and the nice thing about that jig is when it doesn’t work you just ask for more (in private enterprise that would be known as a scam)? You show cherry picked examples of failed business models out of thousands of companies that have succeeded. I’m showing you a model run by the government which is failing right now, but those who “care” seem to have little interest in confronting it. Why is that? What’s going on right now with our current model isn’t hypothetical.

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  5. Seattle Outcast

    I would contend that “for profit” and “private” are essentially that same thing. Harvard, for example has billion$ in endowments and charges stupid tuition that has nothing at all do with the actual cost of education. Just because they aren’t splitting it up with shareholders, and instead lavish enviable salaries and perks on the staff doesn’t mean it’s not making a profit.

    As for POS online schools, such as University of Phoenix, the market has already decided what those are worth. There are plenty of educational opportunities that make a profit – and there isn’t a damned thing wrong with that.

    Removing government interference in the education business (AND THAT IS ALL ANY SCHOOL IS) will only have short term liabilities. Forcing the lazy-ass, overpaid, union teachers to actually earn their paycheck will be a great benefit for the nation.

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  6. salinger

    I would contend that “for profit” and “private” are essentially that same thing.

    And you would be wrong.

    If we can’t agree on vocabulary there is no point in carrying on this discussion because you will try your damnedest now to prove your idiocentric definition of “private” and “for profit” (which is at odds to that of any person familiar with the terms in an academic setting) instead of actually talking about the shortcomings of “running a school like a business”. Precisely why stances like yours are so dangerously misinformed. You did hit upon the answer in your last post though.

    So – I’m done here. Have a swell weekend.

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  7. Hal_10000 *

    This is a dangerously uninformed idea.

    What business model were you suggesting? Enron, Solyndra , Bear Stearns…?

    Just some fact to throw in here:

    In the Netherlands, 2/3 of the schools are autonomous: publicly funded but run independently. Sweden has school choice and they can use public funds in private schools, although most kids take the public schools. Many other countries have options for funds and students going to private schools.

    The key here is to create competition The public schools will continue to be a problem as long as they are monopolies.

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  8. salinger

    A system where the standard cure is to always pour in more money, and the nice thing about that jig is when it doesn’t work you just ask for more

    Precisely – now, do a little research and see who is reaping these profits. It ain’t the teachers – remember the old Watergate adage – “follow the money.”

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  9. Mississippi Yankee

    August 4, 2012 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm
    So – I’m done here. Have a swell weekend.

    August 4, 2012 4:40 pm at 4:40 pm
    Precisely – now, do a little research and see who is reaping these profits. It ain’t the teachers – remember the old Watergate adage – “follow the money.”

    Do you evah leave when you say you are or is it an uncontrollable desire to have the last word that causes this tic?

    ARE YOU MY EX WIFE? Or at least of her tainted bloodline?

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  10. Poosh

    Under a “for profit” motive within a free market of schools (I don’t agree with the idea for now), the schools which offer the highest, best education at the cheapest, efficient equilibrium (threw that word in there ’cause we all know what a badass movie that is) will rise to the top. Teachers will be able to sell their labour more effectively, rather than the vile habit to unionise and make the students suffer (after all, these teachers are all living over the bare life, so a penny after that is to satisfy their greed). Shit teachers in a union protecting eachother? Well that lone-gun teacher will come along, undercut them. The students will prosper, whilst teachers prone to unionise will rightly find the ground beneath them crumbling.

    If money is to be made in education then money will flood it, however, if government interferes too much (or is stupid about it) false incentives are given etc then a bubble will be created. I think also, putting that aside, many are slightly …. concerned? about schools suddenly going bust etc the way all businesses might and some businesses etc do. After all, if that happens, then a lot of children are going to be damaged – damaged – by a lack of education for a period, and it’s no guarantee that they will proceed to another school in time (unless 3,000 places or 10,000 can magically be created by competitors in a month).

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  11. Seattle Outcast

    (which is at odds to that of any person familiar with the terms in an academic setting

    By that you mean the entrenched, unionized, government[-run, near monopoly of public schools, which have essentially been been proven to be the last entrenchment of incompetents?

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  12. salinger

    By that you mean…

    No SO by that I mean the English language and a correct definition of terms – but thanks for proving my point by trying to turn this into an exercise denying your misuse of terminology. See – an intelligent conversation is impossible when all one side is worried about is one up-man-ship. I could cite dozens of reasons a for profit model is wrong for education – but you would still be stuck on assuaging your ego by trying to corkscrew proof that somehow a “private” and a” for profit” school was essentially the same thing, which it is not. Like I said, if you refuse to accept the common definition of words there can be no useful conversation.

    It seems that most threads that are not a circle jerk degenerate into some cheesy haka.

    Let me just say this for others who may want food for thought. A for profit school is by law responsible to its shareholders – a not for profit school can be run to be responsible to its students. Are there non-profit schools that fail their students? Of course – but the for profit schools are by charter forced to take their students needs second at best.

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  13. Xetrov

    The beautiful thing about choice is that the charter would fail without students, and if the school sucks, parents have the choice to take their child elsewhere.

    Charter schools have worked well in Arizona since they were introduced. In fact, one of the largest school districts around Phoenix has had to completely revamp their K-6 program at several schools to stay competitive with some excellently run Charter schools that were expanding like crazy. So well in fact that we drive our son 15 miles to a public school that specializes in reading/writing skills. Without the competition of Charter schools, that school wouldn’t exist as it was expressly designed to compete with several excellent Charter schools that had popped up in the area. Choice and competitiveness in schools is a good thing for education. Unions are not.

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  14. hist_ed

    One other thing to note, competition can be structured into existing school districts. I don’t know how other state’s work, but here in Washington district can create “choice” schools that are similar to charters. They are exempt from a lot of the rules that the regular public schools have to follow. While most of the union contract applies to teachers, the school can get rid of teachers it doesn;t like more easily that regular schools. In my district admission is by lottery, with some advantage going to younger siblings of current students. We have several junior high choice schools (middle schools as on Sept 1) and a couple of 6-12s. Within the high schools there are also choice programs and alternative schools (one stand alone plus a couple housed within regular high schools).

    There is some selection problem-the choice schools tend to get above average students. While admission is by lottery, familse are responsible for most transportation, knucklehad parents don’t tend to know about them and bad students don’t tend to stay in the schools.

    We teachers in the regular schools certainly feel the heat from the competition. Our administrators go to elemetaries and try to sell our programs. Lower enrollment means lower FTE meaning some people might be part time or be laid off (elective teachers are far more vulnerable to this than core teachers). My school in the last few years has revamped elective offerings (robotics, computer drafting, more electronic art classes and fewer drawing and paiting, etc.) plus within core departments we definately feel the pressure to improve. We used to sell out LA/SS honors program but that is going away.

    It would be interesting to treat all our schools as choice schools-give them the chance to innovate, give the administrators more fexibilty with staff and make it easier to students to attend schools outside their service area.

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  15. ilovecress

    This is totally not my specialist subject, but with cress2.0 due to start Kindy soon, it’s one I’m kind of interested in.

    One thing that springs to mind straight away (as someone who is currently ‘choosing’ a school) – how much choice is there in reality – or could there ever be? It’s not like choosing a cable provider. There are at most, say 2 or 3 schools that are logistically possible to attend – so what happens if those schools happen to be crappy, and get crappier through the free market system?

    I worry that instead of (like now) having to choose between three pretty good schools, I’ll have the choice between one awesome school (that I can’t afford), one average school (that is full up) and one awful school (that doesn’t even have a rugby team)

    It seems to me that they aren’t like businesses, in that their motives aren’t actually to get as many customers (students) as possible. If there is room for a thousand students, then that’s the number of kids that are goign to go there, no matter how super-awesomen the school is.

    So what’s the reward for being a good school? More money – but to do what with? I think that’s what Sally is getting at with the distinction between for profit and private.

    Like I say, no9t my specialist subject, so I’m keen to find out.

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  16. CM

    ilovecress, I’m sure you’re aware of the introduction of charter schools here in NZ. A John Banks initiative.

    A third of the Arizona charter schools were put ‘on probation’ following review from state regulators.
    http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2012/01/10/20120110arizona-charter-schools-put-to-test.html

    The performance of charter schools, like district schools, varies.

    There are pockets of outstanding student performance, pockets of failing performance, and a lot of schools in the middle. More detailed data that measure performance, plus the Obama administration’s interest in promoting charter schools, have driven researchers to take a harder look at charter schools in Arizona and the rest of the country.

    Their general conclusion: “They haven’t moved the needle,” said Martin Orland, WestEd research and policy director based in Washington, D.C., who helps monitor charter schools around the country for federal compliance. “Those who honestly believe in charter schools and their potential have faced up to that.”

    There’s also this issue:

    The key fallacy overlooked in nearly all comparisons between public and charter/private schools is that typically the charter/private schools purge their failures.

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  17. richtaylor365

    Salinger, one typical blogging meme, and one of the lamest is the old ,”I could educate you, but you are so effing stupid that I would just be wasting my time”, can’t think of a quicker way of capitulation.

    Believe it or not, many people read your comments, not just the one person you were addressing. It sounds like you have some expertise in this area so I (and probably many others) would be interested in what you have to say so now it the time for a persuasive argument.

    I could cite dozens of reasons a for profit model is wrong for education

    Tell you what, I’ll make it easy for you, just give us your strongest 3 arguments, 3 out of a dozen, child’s play.

    but the for profit schools are by charter forced to take their students needs second at best.

    I hope this was not one of the 3 you were hanging your hat on. For profit schools, like for profit businesses, values both shareholders and customers (students) equally. The successful companies (and the ones that make their shareholders the happiest) offer a product that people want. It all starts there, if you can’t compete and get customers, your company will tank and shareholders will want your head, so it is possible (essential) to serve two masters.

    Precisely – now, do a little research and see who is reaping these profits. It ain’t the teachers – remember the old Watergate adage – “follow the money.”

    How about doing a brother a solid and just tell us. The fact that someone or group of people is “reaping these profits” beyond what they deserve tells us (among other things) that the educational system is broken.

    I don’t think anyone is say it is as simple as doing away with all public schools and making them charter, and you also have the bugaboo about using tax payer money (and the required bureaucrats to manage it) but I would like some thinking outside the box, some alternatives to what we have now. Hell if I know what that is but if you have something to contribute, let’s hear it.

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  18. CM

    Of course they purge the bad students. This isn’t a bad thing, it’s an admission that some kids don’t belong where they’ve been put.

    But the point is about whether the comparisons are valid/invalid. If the you leave off the results of the students you’ve managed to get rid of, you’ll look better.
    And this is exactly what people fear when competition is brought into play in. Schools end up spending time working out how to look better and fudge the numbers (not that they don’t do it now anyway).

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  19. ilovecress

    Of course they purge the bad students. This isn’t a bad thing, it’s an admission that some kids don’t belong where they’ve been put.

    Completely serious question though – what happens to the purged students? Are they just f*cked? I guess it depends on what you mean by ‘bad’ – does a school get rewarded for producing A students, or for making F students into D students?

    or do underachieving students end up in the only schools that will have them?

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  20. Poosh

    I can’t help but think a large for-profit school, as opposed to a private school with no profit motive outside supporting education, but surely for-profit schools are pure bail-out territory? Who is going to let a school fail, a school that prob supports 1000s of kids who cannot be absorbed into other schools without putting a dent in their education?

    Just some musings.

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  21. salinger

    I have worked in many schools all over the world – private, public and for profit.

    For profit schools, like for profit businesses, values both shareholders and customers (students) equally.

    One would hope – but this is not the case. Whether shareholder or single owner I have yet to see a for profit school that actually puts students first. Granted I have personal experience with only a couple dozen or so – but my impressions have been echoed by others in the field I have spoken with about these types of schools. I have seen schools where it is possible to buy your grades so you have that shiny transcript in hand for college, hire teachers who would not be given the time of day at a public or non-profit school because they are economical, and are more beholden to a balance sheet than that of the actual performance of their students.

    Education is not a business – especially the way business is run nowadays where immediate payoffs must be achieved quarterly. A student is not a widget – the payoff may be decades down the road and even then the reward should be aimed to benefit the student and his fellow citizens – not the educational institution. A good school is a pretty crappy business when measured by wall street standards. The greater community benefits from an educated population far more than the school which educated said population – at least in an economic sense (begging for alumni donations aside). Should fire stations be run for a profit?

    We teachers in the regular schools certainly feel the heat from the competition.

    I was hoping you’d weigh in her Histed – I’d take your observation and change the lens from reacting to competition to “adopting best practices” However you want to name it I agree innovation, autonomy, and the nurturing of teachers to become entrepreneurs in their classroom who share their ideas with their colleagues is the correct path to be taking.

    It would be interesting to treat all our schools as choice schools-give them the chance to innovate, give the administrators more fexibilty with staff and make it easier to students to attend schools outside their service area.

    Exactly. To me this means one does not teach toward a single high stakes test used to evaluate teachers and students. There are just too many variables to make that single instance of assessment the totality of a school’s objective (socio-economic standing – resources – transience…). As much as they are maligned, teachers are some of the smartest most inventive people you may ever meet. Encouraging them to innovate in their own classroom is paramount to your kids getting a good education. The next step is the opportunity for these teachers to collaborate and share their successes and failures with their peers through regular continuing education and professional development opportunities. Teachers teaching teachers is the best way to improve your school. Pitting them against one an other as they work with blinders and shackles toward that stupid test which will determine if they can make their house payment leaves little time for collaboration and continuous improvement.

    In recent decades we have done the opposite – forcing pre-packaged lessons (some teachers are mandated to follow a script that comes up on their computer screen each morning) into the classroom instead of treating them like the professionals they are and allowing them to simply teach. A whole lot of money is wasted on programs that do not work. These programs – Reading First being my least favorite – do make lots and lots of money for the folks selling them (it helps to have a board member or two setting national curriculum guidelines – gotta love that running a school as business mentality.) Add to these constraints the catcalls and bitching about “those who can do and those who can’t teach” or spouting that teaching has:

    been proven to be the last entrenchment of incompetents

    is a sure way to a self fulfilling prophesy. Who the hell would want to enter a profession where you are handed a script that doesn’t work to teach to a test that doesn’t assess with the added bonus of public derision. What kind of candidates are you expecting to line up for that job? Just like any profession there are some clunker teachers out there – but they are the vast minority. If we want to keep the incompetents numbers down we’ve got to stop painting with such a wide brush. I see our best and brightest leaving the profession or opting to teach overseas everyday and they cite this indiscriminate ridicule as a major factor in their bailing out. You want respectable teachers start respecting them.

    So rather than three things that prove a for profit model doesn’t work I’ll give you the two things I think would make the biggest positive difference in our schools.

    A) Outcome based curriculum – go ahead and set standards for students. Let teachers and administrators to collaborate, innovate and decide how to get there.

    B) Quit demeaning teachers.

    Here is an organization whose ideas I find worthwhile. Broader Bolder Approach to Education.

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  22. richtaylor365

    Thanks Salinger, you make some good points.

    Education is not a business – especially the way business is run nowadays where immediate payoffs must be achieved quarterly. A student is not a widget – the payoff may be decades down the road and even then the reward should be aimed to benefit the student and his fellow citizens

    All of that is true, however, investors understand (or should) the nature of the product and the market they are investing in. Look at Amazon, how many years did it take them to turn a profit.? Start ups are like that and schools would follow the same dynamic. I have been in the market for over 25 years now and I would gladly buy into a school, doing it because it was turning out a product I could be proud of, that is the pay out.

    Should fire stations be run for a profit?

    If fire stations had the success record of the public school system, you would probably see people clamoring for this type of change.

    It would be interesting to treat all our schools as choice schools-give them the chance to innovate, give the administrators more fexibilty with staff and make it easier to students to attend schools outside their service area.

    Exactly

    Honky Dorey, but it will never happen. We have school boards that dictate curriculum and who buy text books based on that curriculum, deviate in any way and there will be hell to pay, you are not paid to think, you are paid to teach.

    . As much as they are maligned, teachers are some of the smartest most inventive people you may ever meet

    .

    No one is disputing that, now talk about the flip side. You probably remember that story that came out a few years ago documenting the fate of NY’s worst teachers. The absolute dregs of the teaching profession can’t be fired, they have a union that protects them from that, so everyday these rejects go to the school district building and hang on, play cards, surf the net, do personal business, anything at all, and they draw a full salary for twiddling their thumbs. You may have some of the best and brightest, but you also have a system where you are protected. You can be incompetent, illiterate, even criminal, no worries, because the union will fight for you and the teachers union wields considerable power. My kid will be a senior in high school, I have followed his education from day one. I can’t remember a single teacher in any of his schools being let go for cause, an occasional principal gets moved around but teachers are more protected then the spotted owl.

    I like many of your ideas re: what teachers should do, but how do you change the system so that they are allowed to do these things?

    I take it by your comments that you agree with me in recognizing the demise of the public school system, it is broke, but I still don’t know how it can possibly be fixed, aside from a radical change like abolishing the DOE, getting the feds out of the school business entirely and handing it over to the individual states.

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  23. salinger

    I would gladly buy into a school, doing it because it was turning out a product I could be proud of, that is the pay out.

    In some circles this may be called a donation;) I would encourage everyone to donate to a school they think is doing something right.

    it will never happen. We have school boards that dictate curriculum and who buy text books based on that curriculum, deviate in any way and there will be hell to pay, you are not paid to think, you are paid to teach.

    it can and has happened. It’s up to the parents of the students of that school to stand up and fight against the one size fits all mentality. I really believe if parent really knew what was going on in schools there would be a revolt – but the pushers of the scripted curriculum have done such a good PR job blaming everything on the greedy teachers (while filling their pockets with tax dollars) that the reality of the situation isn’t even being discussed outside of professional education circles.

    You probably remember that story that came out a few years ago documenting the fate of NY’s worst teachers

    One could also look at this as a success in as much the mother fuckers weren’t in a classroom in front of a bunch of kids. There is plenty of room for reform but you’re gonna get these outliers in every profession. Given more autonomy and peer review these dirt bag teachers would be flushed out of the system by their peers. Right now there is a foxhole mentality of us against them.

    but I still don’t know how it can possibly be fixed, aside from a radical change like abolishing the DOE, getting the feds out of the school business entirely and handing it over to the individual states

    .

    I wouldn’t go as far as shit canning the DOE. There is a place for national standards so that when you move from Alabama to Oregon little Rich in fifth grade will be able to fit into his new school. But I am for streamlining and narrowly defining the department’s responsibilities.

    Okay – I have stuff to do the rest of the day – keep outta trouble – nice to have a civil conversation.

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  24. Seattle Outcast

    But the point is about whether the comparisons are valid/invalid. If the you leave off the results of the students you’ve managed to get rid of, you’ll look better.

    Yes and no. It also shows that you don’t waste your fucking time putting lipstick on a pig and trying to enter it in a beauty contest.

    Not everyone is cut out for academic excellence. Pretending that we’re going to produce a nation where all people get a college education will result in the following:

    1) Dumbing down of education (already happening)

    2) Ignoring the true issues (already happening)

    3) Tossing money at the wrong people/places (already happening)

    4) Moronic comparisons to countries that already sort the wheat from the chaff (already happening)

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  25. Xetrov

    So what’s the reward for being a good school? More money – but to do what with?

    Open more schools.

    I have worked in many schools all over the world – private, public and for profit.

    While running all those marathons, and otherwise being so awesome? Impressive.

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  26. CM

    While running all those marathons, and otherwise being so awesome? Impressive.

    C’mon Xetrov, you’re not so bad yourself.

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  27. Section8

    In recent decades we have done the opposite – forcing pre-packaged lessons (some teachers are mandated to follow a script that comes up on their computer screen each morning) into the classroom instead of treating them like the professionals they are and allowing them to simply teach. A whole lot of money is wasted on programs that do not work. These programs – Reading First being my least favorite – do make lots and lots of money for the folks selling them (it helps to have a board member or two setting national curriculum guidelines – gotta love that running a school as business mentality.) Add to these constraints the catcalls and bitching about “those who can do and those who can’t teach” or spouting that teaching has:

    This reminds me of Bill Honig, and when he pushed whole reading on schools in CA.

    As for no child left behind, schools were already going down hill that’s one of the reasons it was passed in the first place, so while you could tack it on as a blunder I guess, it’s not quite right to shape it as a reason.

    Just out of curiosity, and I believe you have a business selling services to schools for your profit? It’s not the whole reading crap is it? It did a number on CA schools.

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  28. salinger

    Just out of curiosity, and I believe you have a business selling services to schools for your profit? It’s not the whole reading crap is it? It did a number on CA schools.

    I have written books for teachers with classroom lessons on vocabulary development, public speaking, and teaching writing. Even though the schools can buy the books many still like to have me come in and model the lessons. Sometimes I work just with teachers but mostly, and my favorite, I work with students followed by debriefing sessions with the teachers. I am also a published author/poet and do author visits. My stuff is not centered around whole language – it is more comprehension based than decoding which means I work more with understanding literature read by writing about it than the process of reading. I would more likely be teaching how to use imagery in a compare and contrast essay than the sounds of individual letters in a word. I work with kids K-through university but specialize with middle-schoolers.

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  29. Section8

    Ok, thanks for answering back Salinger. By the way, I have no issue with you having a business that sells to schools for a profit. I was more curious about what you do. I am a little jealous you get to choose who you want to work with though. :)

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  30. hist_ed

    I was hoping you’d weigh in her Histed – I’d take your observation and change the lens from reacting to competition to “adopting best practices”

    The problem with that damn phrase is that it hides a multitude of sins. I am sure you will agree that “best practices” in education can be horrendously faddish. Every five or ten year another magic bullet comes down the pike (or should that be out of the barrel) A bunch of places adopt it, and five or ten years down the line it becomes apparent that it didn’t little to nothing to improve things. The current puch for one to one computer wil lbe just such a phenomenon. Reasearch is already starting to come put that it doesn’t improve things and in some cases hurts-some districts have seen significant drops in literacy scores.

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  31. hist_ed

    PS Salinger-I just bought “Outspoken” I am teaching LA for the first time in a few years and have a really annoying administrator who is trying to get rid of me-time to bring out some new stuff.

    We should have a little talk about economics, though. You’ll sell a lot more and make a lot more if you lower those prices.

    And do you know what the “Uknown Binding” version are? $125 on Amazon? Do you deliver each one personally with a pair of your lightly soiled underwear?

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  32. salinger

    You’ll sell a lot more and make a lot more if you lower those prices.

    You know how much I make off each of those books? About a buck and a quarter – the publisher sets the price and reaps the benefit. I buy them myself at 50% off and give them away or sell them at my cost. Like I said earlier – I make my real living with the consulting gigs – the books are more a foot in the door.

    I think my other book High Definition would fit into a writing across the curriculum a bit easier. Hit me back channel and I’ll send you a free copy.

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  33. hist_ed

    I think my other book High Definition would fit into a writing across the curriculum a bit easier. Hit me back channel and I’ll send you a free copy.

    Very cool and thanks-PM is on the way. I did a bunch of research on middle school literacy issues a few years ago and need to get back into it.

    Relevant – while the article is about for profit colleges the sentiment permeates the industry

    Interesting, but for the article to be fair it would compare this to public colleges and private non-profits. After all they take in billions of taxpayer money, too.

    The average graduation rate for NCAA schools isn’t much bettter: http://tinyurl.com/3xypswc and if NCAA schools are this bad, then lower tier public schools are probably as bad or worse

    It would be nice to know what tuition they are charging and compare that to public colleges as well.

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  34. salinger

    Unless I am reading something wrong 66% graduate from these for profit universities and 79% of student athletes graduate from the link you provided. That’s a pretty decent difference – plus your link refers to athletes who one might not expect to always be the most studious. (on the flip-side – they may have someone taking tests for them) I don’t know what the number would be for general student population.

    This does look like something interesting to look into – I just don’t have time for it right now – I’m up against it for the next week or so.

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  35. salinger

    I know this is a ten day old thread – but I think this is a very important subject. This is a pretty good summation of some of the pitfalls of treating education like a business.

    Relevant

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