The Trayvon Martin case revisited – Part 2

One of the commenters posting on my previous Zimmerman – Martin shooting aftermath post had this comment to make:

Zimmerman’s injuries do not automatically exonerate him of any wrong-doing, and by pursuing Martin for zero justifiable reasons,

Oh, how wrong did the poster get this, and I am talking big-time wrong. Granted, if you got your facts only from the LSM you would believe that Zimmerman was told to stand down by the authorities, disobeyed that order for what clearly looks like a want to start a confrontation, and then because he was a racist, and went looking for a chance to shoot someone. So we can forgive people that are not aware of the details. In fact, I am convinced this story is being hyped to help the democrats and Obama deflect attention from the real problems we have going on right now. The bad economy, the problem with Iran, gas prices, the SCOTUS review of that constitution shredding Obamacare travesty. You name it, a ton of horrible things are being crowded out by a manufactured crisis that lets the left again go back to the tried and true racial narrative they so rely on to make the country look evil, and then engender the usual emotional appeal from the idiots that vote for them. But the facts that Zimmerman did nothing wrong are out there. It’s just that the LSM is avoiding them for a reason. Lets take a look at them.

From what I am finding out, despite the LSM’s best attempts to cover it all up – they are ignoring the evidence they don’t like- Zimmerman had good reason to follow this kid. This neighborhood had been experiencing a lot of trouble with burglaries. A lot. And in every case the perps got away because the response time of the authorities was too slow or the criminals cleared out before being detected. And that’s why they had the watch to begin with. They where trying to be proactive.

If you have only gotten your information from the LSM you would also believe that Zimmerman was told not to do something by people with the authority to do so, and that he chose to violate that order, went after an innocent kid, and hence he should be considered the aggressor. This seems to be massive bullshit when you get the facts. And yeah, you could argue that a sensationalized story about racial tensions sells more paper, but that would be attributing nobler motives to the media than what I truly suspected was the main driver behind this pack of lies. Duke Lacrosse case anyone? I suspect that it’s the narrative more than the need to sell papers.

Where to begin with the details of this story? First off, I again want to stress how the LSM has manipulated this story from the get go. As others have already pointed out, the photos of this man, Trayvon Martin, are from when he was 12 and intentionally used to make him look cute and harmless. I have a feeling that more recent photos wouldn’t do any of that. Obama sure as hell wouldn’t be claiming em as a long lost child of his. The fact is that Martin is 17, is 6’ 2” tall, a football player, a self avowed gangbanger, has been in trouble with the school and the law, not once but on numerous occasion, and was staying in this community because of these troubles in his past, was all glanced over and covered up. Martin was no innocent victim, but definitely a dangerous hoodlum with a definite chip on his shoulder. That’s not speculation: that’s information that is out there but not being carried by the LSM.

And what about the LSM’s initial characterization of Zimmerman as white, despite the fact that the police report clearly identifies Zimmerman as Hispanic? Seriously. Red flags anyone? Can you imagine we didn’t have the internets and bloggers carrying the story from the local media so we could actually find out the LSM was selling us a massive shit sandwich nationally? When you find out Zimmerman is Hispanic, has tons of black friends, and in general is a nice guy, it gets harder to sell the race crime narrative.

Then we have the whole phone conversation between Zimmerman and 9-1-1. There are so many distortions of this call that it is mind boggling to me. Start off with the fact that Zimmerman was not talking with the police, but with the 9-1-1 dispatcher. Huge difference between that and what the LSM reports. I have no doubt that the LSM reporters purposefully chose not make this distinction so they could then help create the illusion Zimmerman violated a direct order from someone with authority. The fact is that a 9-1-1 dispatcher has no authority to tell Zimmerman what to do: a dispatcher isn’t a policeman, as the LSM stories have claimed, while Zimmerman was doing his duty as a neighborhood watchman. That distinction alone should be enough to kill that angle of the story.

But the LSM setup and distortion of what happened between Zimmerman and the 9-1-1 dispatcher doesn’t end there. What is even more frustrating to me is that when the dispatcher told Zimmerman not do follow Martin, this was because Zimmerman had told the dispatcher that the suspect he was following in his car had bolted between two houses, in what clearly looked like an attempt to get away, and considering the history of how many times burglars had gotten away in the past, he was not going to have any of that, if he could avoid it. The LSM has conveniently left this crucial detail out, which the police report clearly states, and it paints a completely different picture of why Zimmerman is following Martin. The whole “He was a cowboy looking to get off some shots and a racist to boot” bullshit is much harder to sell when you have these details.

Then there are the witnesses and their reports. It’s obvious from their account that Martin was definitely the aggressor – he had the upper hand and was on top of Zimmerman – and Zimmerman responded with force after a struggle and while fearing for his life. There even are reports that Zimmerman was trying to get away from Martin before the altercation ensued. I have even heard, and they are unsubstantiated rumors I want to point out, that Martin had struggled with Zimmerman over the gun, which had been holstered, and that during the struggle shots had been fired. The bruises and broken nose Zimmerman incurred sure prove he was beat up by Martin in the process of whatever was going on. I admit I have no details on Martin’s state other than he was shot. But considering how the LSM has been reporting this, I find it highly doubtful that there were bruises on him indicating he was jumped and they simply didn’t report them. Common sense dictates that most of the “what if” scenarios, at least the credible ones, give Martin the upper hand and identify him as the one meting out physical punishment.

The issue that remains is who started it. We might never find out. Could it have been Zimmerman? Sure. However, considering all I know about Trayvon Martin now, despite the LSM’s attempt to obfuscate the facts I need to add, I find it completely plausible and far more likely that he accosted Zimmerman for daring to follow him. Martin considers himself a gang banger. That’s his profile and image, not my take on it. Why would he let some punk ass honkey like Zimmerman give him shit? He didn’t like being followed, and even if he had not been up to anything bad, this ticked him off.

Heck, beating up that idiot white boy dissing him also gives him street creds with his gangbanger homeys. Or maybe he was up to no good and figured he wanted to make sure he got away. All he needed to go off was Zimmerman talking to him or grabbing his arm. The police sure as hell must have believed this the far more credible scenario because they would have arrested Zimmerman otherwise. I know the usual race mongers are saying the police was racist about this, just didn’t care, had a black dead guy they could blame, and moved on, but I find that hard to believe.

Bear in mind that one of the things that remains a mystery to many people is why it took Martin’s relatives a full 3 days to contact the cops and hence claim his remains. That sets off all kinds of red flags for me. Are they used to this sort of behavior from him? Did Trayvon run away before? Did they not see the commotion and the police inside the gated community and wonder WTF was going on? Something is off here.

I am convinced now, after learning some of these details that the police found and documented, and which convinced them of Zimmerman’s story of being truthful, that the attempt to blame the authorities and pretend they didn’t do a good enough investigation will also backfire on these people. They take these things real seriously. If even one thing had been off I suspect they would have arrested Zimmerman pending further investigation. They did no such thing.

My guess is that the LSM will keep these flames stoked for as long as it can to help the left push the narrative and avoid talking about the real bad shit they are doing. In the mean time one man is dead and another will suffer for that death. But I will be real surprised, knowing what I do now, if we find out that this wasn’t just a case of a kid fancying himself a dangerous thug misjudging the situation and getting killed. A tragedy for sure, but not as tragic as the media firestorm and the reason I believe is behind it.

The commenter concluded their post with the following:

As always we await the judicial process to do the best it can (we hope) to figure this out.

I sure hope we get some of that, but these days and with the current media I doubt that’s gonna be the case.

Comments are closed.

  1. Hal_10000

    The fact is that Martin is 17, is 6’ 2” tall, a football player, a self avowed gangbanger, has been in trouble with the school and the law, not once but on numerous occasion, and was staying in this community because of these troubles in his past, was all glanced over and covered up. Martin was no innocent victim, but definitely a dangerous hoodlum with a definite chip on his shoulder

    This means nothing. Does he have a criminal record? Nope. Did he have a history of violence? Nope. Even if he did, does this justify the shooting? Nope. He was on the phone with his girlfriend, who reported that he was worried that someone was following him. And with zero evidence to support the assertion, you just paint Martin as a thug, conjuring facts into existence and speculating and what he may or may not have done. It’s disgusting.

    The rush to judgement on Zimmerman is bad enough. But rushing to judgement on a dead kid?

    Hot! Thumb up 6

  2. Seattle Outcast

    And with zero evidence to support the assertion, you just paint Martin as a thug, conjuring facts into existence and speculating and what he may or may not have done. It’s disgusting

    Your data is a couple days old – there appears to be plenty of evidence to support the picture of him as a thug in the making. His twitter account, expulsion from school for drugs, burglary tools, apparently stolen jewelry, graffiti, etc.

    Just wander over to Drudge for a fistful of links….

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  3. Hal_10000

    SO, it’s you who are behind because you are listening to a smear machine. His seldom-used twitter account? Gimme a break. Half the honor roll white kids have twitter feeds like that. He was not expelled from school, he was suspended under zero tolerance drug policies for having an empty baggie. The Miami police have said the jewelry is not connected to any known theft. The “burglary tool” was a fucking screwdriver. Graffiti? Are you fucking kidding me? And let’s not ignore the fake picture of him flicking off the camera.

    And again … I repeat … this does not have anything to do with the shooting. Even if he had a rap sheet as long as his arm, that does not justify jack shit. (Nor would it mean anything if he were an honor student). When we have a better picture of what happened, then we can judge. Based on the facts of what happened that night.

    This digging into the background of a .. let’s repeat this … dead 17 y/o kid .. is depressing. And the language used … Jesus, it’s like the Ring Wing is trying to give the idiot Lefties a reason to call us racists. A twitter account, a screwdriver, some graffiti and a drug-free drug suspension from school for a B student who lived with both his parents and had no criminal history is not proof of anyone being a “gang banger”.

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  4. balthazar

    And again … I repeat … this does not have anything to do with the shooting. Even if he had a rap sheet as long as his arm, that does not justify jack shit. (Nor would it mean anything if he were an honor student). When we have a better picture of what happened, then we can judge. Based on the facts of what happened that night.

    Yeah, the only thing that has to do with the shooting is the lone eyewitness, who corroborates Z’s version of evens, the stitches and broken nose that Z had. Oh shit, what was your point again?

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  5. Mississippi Yankee

    Let me illuminate just one fact that has not been mentioned here or hardly anywhere for that matter.

    This “poor fucking innocent child’s death” occurred one goddamned month ago yesterday. WHEN did you first hear about it? Hal? Sharpton? Calypso Louie????
    That’s what I thought.

    As Rahm Emmanuel stated in 2009 “Never let a crisis go to waste”. These ducks have been is a row for a couple of weeks.

    It is my hope that our own “Reichstag Fire” has been averted for the time being.
    They who will not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

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  6. Kimpost

    Hal’s right*. Why on earth should we replace one prematurely sentenced party, Zimmerman, with another, Martin? Let the investigation show us what really happened. The kid’s dead, which by all accounts, is a tragedy. Let’s not deepen the tragedy, by jumping on every bit of smear we can find on the Internets.

    We can still go after Sharpton et. al. for demanding arrests, or instigating people. Or for politicians and pundits who are way too quick to blame the law.

    *) Wonder if my agreement will serve as evidence for how Hal’s actually wrong?

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  7. Mississippi Yankee

    Hal

    This is your comment from yesterday

    I realize the liberals will never back down. But if Zimmerman is accurate that Martin was slamming his head into the ground, that completely changes the narrative. He was still reckless, but I a murder/homicide charges would seem a stretch.

    Has some new facts come to light since then or is this just an ideological swipe at Alex?
    Even for a (l)INO you don’t seem very consistent here… but then again we’ve had this discussion before.

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  8. Kimpost

    There are still a lot of “if’s” attached to this story. Contrary to what’s being discussed on many blogs, we just don’t know what happened. Even Alex acknowledged that in his post.

    The issue that remains is who started it. We might never find out. Could it have been Zimmerman? Sure.

    Unfortunately (IMO) Alex had to do a LSM reverse before and after the caveat. He went after Martin, just as some people went after Zimmerman, before we knew. We still don’t know.

    Martin was no innocent victim, but definitely a dangerous hoodlum with a definite chip on his shoulder. That’s not speculation

    Shit like this just need to end…

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  9. hist_ed

    Gotta say I agree with Hal, mostly. The kid’s school record, his baggie expulsion, his gang banger pictures have zero bearing on the legal question of whether this shooting was justified. You don’t get to kill people just because of what they post, or wear or smoke.

    What it has a huge amount of bearing on is how the media is achingly desperate for a one dimensional story that fits their liberal worldview: Guns are bad. People who carry them are nutty vigilantes. The greates threat to Black people is white racists. Etc.

    Remember right after Obama’s election there was a guy with an AR outside one of his appearances in AZ? There was this panel discussion on MSNBC about how this had to be racist, there were just some people that couldn’t stand a black man as president. One problem: the guy with the rifle was black. They edited the video oh so carefully so that his skin didn’t show.

    I use that when I talk about media and secondary source bias in history. Guess I have another great item to use for that lesson.

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  10. hist_ed

    Finally, in a fit of totally Un-PC-ness: How many Black teenagers named John or Charles make the news for getting shot. Naming your kid by pulling a random pile of Scrabble letters out of the bag and throwing them down on a table is just asking for trouble (Boy baby becomes criminal; girl baby become sex worker).

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  11. Hal_10000

    MY, you’re confounding two different discussions, Let me break this down:

    If Zimmerman just shot this kid, that’s murder.

    If Zimmerman confronted Martin and then had to shoot in the ensuing altercation, there may be an endangerment or assault charge but the smoothing may have been justified.

    If Martin initiated the confrontation, the shooting may have been justified.

    You see what’s not in those scenarios? Anything about Trayvon’s clothing, attitude, behavior at school, suspension, or his God damned Twitter account, These things are irrelevant.

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  12. Hal_10000

    One other thing: it’s true we didn’t hear about this case until now. But I’m fine with that. The whole purposes of activists – even shithead ones like Sharpton – is to bring our attention to abuses the or neglect by the government, That shit is thrown all the time a the IJ and the ACLU and Radley Balko and anyone else who tries to bring attention to injustices. What matters is what happened, not who drew it to our attention and why.

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  13. Mississippi Yankee

    One other thing: it’s true we didn’t hear about this case until now. But I’m fine with that.

    Exactly when did we hear about it? When did it become national news?
    BYW the story hit the national news airwaves on March 19th according to wikipedia.

    Yeah, no coincidence at all that Al Sharpton, Calypso Louie, the New Black Panthers and Jesse Jackson all managed to clear their agenda driven schedules, almost simultaneously, two full weeks after Trayvon (not a thug) Martin was brutishly murdered.

    Yep, I’m sure that there’s aspects of the case that will never see the disinfectant of sunshine or were quickly re-covered again because of that delay.. I wonder if you’d been “fine with that” if Zimmerman’s life had been lost instead.
    Fact is you never would have known. Dog bites man stories never make the paper… or so they say.

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  14. Mississippi Yankee

    And it turns out Trayvon’s suspension(s) were a little more serious than “The kid’s school record, his baggie expulsion”

    MSNBC Miami

    Suspension 1
    According to the report, the 12 pieces of jewelry included silver wedding bands, earrings with diamonds and a watch. The investigator asked about the jewelry and “Martin replied it’s not mine. A friend gave it to me,” the report said.

    He declined to name the friend. The jewelry was impounded and photos of the pieces were sent to Miami-Dade police, but Martin was only suspended for the graffiti. No evidence was ever released that the jewelry was stolen.

    Suspension 2
    Four months after the October incident, Martin was suspended after he was caught with the empty baggie with traces of marijuana in it, the report said. A “marijuana pipe” was also found on the teen, the report said. A family spokesperson confirmed the marijuana baggie suspension Monday.

    Suspension 3
    Martin’s third suspension was for tardiness and truancy, his family said Monday.

    Yes taken singularly it means nothing but as this bits and pieces of his life start to add up do we see a pattern?

    C’mon hist_ed, your a teacher right? was this guy a pothead or thug? In your expert opinion I mean.

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  15. Seattle Outcast

    SO, it’s you who are behind because you are listening to a smear machine

    As opposed to the other smear machine that paints Zimmerman as a racist prick and Martin as a saint?

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  16. hist_ed

    C’mon hist_ed, your a teacher right? was this guy a pothead or thug? In your expert opinion I mean.

    Pothead or thug, doesn’t matter for the legal case. If a triple murderer cocain drug lord is walking down the street on parol, you don’t get to go shoot him ’cause he looks bad. If he is banging your head into a curb, you do get to shoot him (or anyone else who is banging your head into a curb).

    Again, the info about Treyvon is an indictment of the media and the race huslters. They wanted to take a relatively ordinary shooting and turn it into a national reason for protest and riot. Bet you that if/when Zimmerman is exonerated again that riots break out in some cities. These will disproportionately harm (law abiding) black people as their neighborhoods are again torched, their grocery stores close, etc. etc.

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  17. hist_ed

    MY, you’re confounding two different discussions, Let me break this down:

    HAL, I wasn’t confounding, I was differentiating. I was agreeing with you (as I said). I (mostly) agree with your breakdown. In my opinion, there’s a little more wiggle room with option two and less in option three.

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  18. amlorusso

    I’m assuming that you combined a critique of a section of my comment with a statement of the facts that you are aware of and your conclusions from them, because if your post is solely about my comment, then it addresses a sack full of arguments I never made.

    You wrote previously, which I quoted, and was responding to.

    Or even if he started the fight and then was forced to respond with deadly force when Trayvon got to kicking his ass. Frankly none of those scenarios really make the self defense shooting justification go away

    I responded (in part) with

    Zimmerman’s injuries do not automatically exonerate him of any wrong-doing

    The statement stands on it’s own, so your argument that I have been mislead by what I have (or haven’t) read fails. It stands up even better in the context of the argument I was making, which is that an aggressor claiming self-defence in response to the self-defence of their victim is circular and contradictory, which is the proposition you were making that prompted my comment. Note I never made any claim about who was the aggressor, only that Zimmerman took the first step in escalating the situation by following Martin.

    and by pursuing Martin for zero justifiable reasons

    I based this on not what I had read, but the only thing that counts, what Zimmerman said on the 911 call of what Martin was doing before Zimmerman followed him, which I had previously listened to. Zimmerman had nothing but speculation at that point, but had already decided what Martin was, and followed Martin out of frustration of burglaries committed previously by unknown criminals, not because of any knowledge of what Martin was going to do. He had no “duty” to follow (not even cops have that “duty”) and the 911 operator advised Zimmerman, “We don’t need you to do that”. Not a command from a cop, sure. But a gentle request not to get involved further.

    Listen to the Zimmerman’s 911 call again. Those were not the words of someone operating on reason, but on frustration and speculation. This is not a good combination.

    Anything else is an after-the-fact rationalisation.

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  19. Mississippi Yankee

    He had no “duty” to follow (not even cops have that “duty”) and the 911 operator advised Zimmerman, “We don’t need you to do that”. Not a command from a cop, sure. But a gentle request not to get involved further.

    As I pointed out in the other Trayvon post, George Zimmerman was part of a Neighbor Watch patrol.
    It was a gated community, a mixed race community, Trayvon Martin was NOT a member of that community, he was a guest of his father’s girlfriend. She did in fact live there. Neither Trayvon nor his father, who BTW didn’t report him missing for 3 days, lived in that gated community.

    My oldest son lived in a gated community in Vero Beach FL until he bought his new home. BUT if I, a 63 yo white man had walked around at 9:30 at night in said community I would have been asked questions.

    And as you listened to the 911 call you know Zimmerman was concerned because poor police response time had never been able to catch any of the previous neighborhood burglars.

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  20. Hal_10000

    HAL, I wasn’t confounding, I was differentiating. I was agreeing with you (as I said). I (mostly) agree with your breakdown. In my opinion, there’s a little more wiggle room with option two and less in option three.

    Sorry, was responding to Mississippi, not you. I agree, there’s room for a lot more subtlety than I laid out.

    In the end, I think this will result in some kind of reckless endangerment charge and a civil suit. I hope te Feds don’t bring a civil rights case and make this worse. I think this was just a horrible tragedy. A neighborhood watch guy, a nervous kid, a misunderstanding, a struggle and a gunshot. I don’t think Zimmerman ever intended to even tangle with the teen.

    But the facts will come out, I hope.

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  21. Mook

    I think this was just a horrible tragedy. A neighborhood watch guy, a nervous kid, a misunderstanding, a struggle and a gunshot. I don’t think Zimmerman ever intended to even tangle with the teen.

    A “nervous kid” or a violence-prone thug? Your description seems to bestow more innocence on Trayvon than he may deserve. As M.Yankee pointed out, most EVERYONE walking through a gated community who doesn’t live there is going to be questioned sooner or later. I don’t think Z intended to tangle with the teen either.. I think it’s likely that Trayvon exploded in anger and violence simply because someone dared to follow or question him.

    Personnally, I think our society needs more Zimmerman’s who are willing to investigate and look out for the neighborhood when others aren’t home. Unfortunately, this incident makes it less likely that suspicious activity will be investigated in the future in other neighborhoods across the country, resulting in more crime and violence.

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  22. AlexInCT *

    Unfortunately (IMO) Alex had to do a LSM reverse before and after the caveat. He went after Martin, just as some people went after Zimmerman, before we knew. We still don’t know.

    I did not go after Martin at all, Kimpost. I was just pointing out how Martin was portrayed, on purpose, and not by mistake, as a poor innocent victim, with cute pictures and all, to make your average inattentive Joe and your dumbass Community Organizer in Chief, because of emotional appeal, come to his defense, when anyone that had the benefit of finding out the real details about him would immediately have had red flags go off. Well, everyone without the usual bullshit bias.

    My point was to contrast how Zimmerman was painted as a racist and gun happy and Trayvon as a poor kid that just happened to cross paths with the gun happy racist that figured he could bust a cap in the dumb “N-word” and hide behind a self defense law, despite the obvious availability of information that should have dissuaded the media from doing anything like this. I feel for Zimmerman because he was railroaded. I feel for Martin because death is a tragedy and this kid will now end up ruined after they painted him as a martyr for political gain and we are left to expose how blatant of a lie this all was.

    If anything I went after the media and the disastrously biased and unethical coverage they have so far given this story. Huge distinction.

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  23. AlexInCT *

    I’m assuming that you combined a critique of a section of my comment with a statement of the facts that you are aware of and your conclusions from them, because if your post is solely about my comment, then it addresses a sack full of arguments I never made.

    You are correct. My point was to show how your comment, based on the information generally peddle by the media, left you lacking a lot of the details that would have otherwise made you rethink your stance.

    The statement stands on it’s own, so your argument that I have been mislead by what I have (or haven’t) read fails.

    So you were aware of the details that should have seriously made you question how the media was painting this horrible event, yet still chose to take their word for who initiated the situation?

    It stands up even better in the context of the argument I was making, which is that an aggressor claiming self-defence in response to the self-defence of their victim is circular and contradictory, which is the proposition you were making that prompted my comment.

    Note I never made any claim about who was the aggressor,

    Neither did I. In either past. I simply pointed out that based on the evidence the media conveniently chose to ignore the case could be made for either way. In fact, the evidence shows that once known, one would lean far more towards the conclusion the police came to than the media narrative that an injustice had occurred.

    only that Zimmerman took the first step in escalating the situation by following Martin.

    Really? You are still going to stand on this even after I point that it is known that Martin bolted between two houses, none of them his, while Zimmerman was just doing what he was supposed to as a neighborhood watchmen?

    What if Martin had really been a burglar? See, I do not know you enough to know better, but this smacks of the problem I see people on the left have with anyone actually doing anything that might hurt criminals, and their constant emotional appeal to the few and far in between incidents they can exploit to turn us into another socialist shithole where the criminal class freely abuses the law abiding citizens.

    I based this on not what I had read, but the only thing that counts, what Zimmerman said on the 911 call of what Martin was doing before Zimmerman followed him, which I had previously listened to. Zimmerman had nothing but speculation at that point, but had already decided what Martin was, and followed Martin out of frustration of burglaries committed previously by unknown criminals, not because of any knowledge of what Martin was going to do.

    Sounds to me like you didn’t get the context of the 9-11 call for sure if you are claiming Zimmerman was just “speculating” about Martin when Martin sure as hell behaved in a manner to arouse suspicion. Again, that’s precisely why I did my post, and I now feel vindicated doing it. What bothers me more is that you still continue to pretend Zimmerman is at fault here when that is highly dubious.

    And I guess you lack understanding of what a neighborhood watch entails too. Martin bolting in between two homes doesn’t for a second make you think anyone in their right mind would consider that suspicious behavior? Why run and so something like that if you are innocent? Shit, if I was Martin I would have walked up to Zimmerman’s car and asked him why he was following me. Case closed.

    He had no “duty” to follow (not even cops have that “duty”) and the 911 operator advised Zimmerman, “We don’t need you to do that”.

    Again: really? Your beef with Zimmerman is that he took his task as a neighborhood watchman seriously and decided not to let someone that he clearly suspected had no reason to be there get off yet again? Why have the program at all? If you have to have irrefutable proof that someone is a burglar, you basically are telling people they have no right to prevent the burglary, only the right to call the cops and have nothing happen after that. If you are lucky that’s all that happens and you are still around to call the cops.

    Or is it that you are still invested in trying to make Zimmerman out as a racist without saying so?

    Not a command from a cop, sure. But a gentle request not to get involved further.

    So had the dispatcher not told him that you would have been OK with him following the guy that was looking suspicious and had bolted between two homes in and obvious attempt to shake off a tail?

    Color me unimpressed and dubious about your motives. And no, I was not trying to be racist by using the word color.

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  24. Mook

    Unfortunately (IMO) Alex had to do a LSM reverse before and after the caveat. He went after Martin, just as some people went after Zimmerman, before we knew. We still don’t know.

    “Some people” who went after Zimmerman is you Kimpost, as you are particularly guilty of jumping to conclusions:

    Kimpost says: March 20, 2012 2:05 pm at 2:05 pm (UTC -4)

    Looks like Zimmerman likely killed an innocent man because of gross neglect, and that he’ll get away with it. Congratulations to him personally, too bad for Martin and his family.

    Your first reaction was to declare Z guilty before any pertinent facts were given.

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  25. Kimpost

    “Some people” who went after Zimmerman is you Kimpost, as you are particularly guilty of jumping to conclusions:

    That was what it looked like at the moment. I think that it still kind of does. Zimmerman should have called 911, gone home and had something to eat. IMHO of course, since I’m fully aware that you think that we need more Zimmerman’s in this world.

    Come to think about it, perhaps the word “gross” was a bit over the top, but I don’t regard that as a big thing. I never turned this into a race issue, nor did I go looking for ways to portray Zimmerman as a racist. My cynical “congratulations/too bad”-comment was an illustration of my feelings for what then looked like a botched investigation. All I really wanted was a proper one, which is now happening. I’m good now.

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  26. Mook

    That was what it looked like at the moment. I think that it still kind of does.

    In other words, that was “what it looked like” without any pertinent facts and you were willing to unfairly “go after” Zimmerman based on your “feelings” and biases.. exactly what you accuse Alex of, but worse.

    With the witness testimony supported by 911 tapes, how in the world do you STILL conclude that Zimmerman killed an ‘innocent’ man out of neglect? As a concerned citizen who observed someone suspicious in his neighborhood, Z had every right to see what Trayvon was up to without deserving to be violently attacked. The fact that Z called 911 right away is a strong indication that he was not simply looking for a physical confrontation. Judging from the call, he was never really close to the teen at all, he was just trying to see where he was going. All evidence indicates that Trayvon initiated a violent sucker punch attack on Zimmerman who, judging from his screams on the 911 tape, was afraid for his life. The eyewitness yelled to both men that he was calling 911 which didn’t deter Trayvon in the least.

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  27. Mook

    He had no “duty” to follow (not even cops have that “duty”) and the 911 operator advised Zimmerman, “We don’t need you to do that”. Not a command from a cop, sure. But a gentle request not to get involved further.

    Zimmerman had moral “duty” to follow him.. he was simply doing routine, everyday neighborhood watch actions by reporting suspicious activity to the authorities. There is no evidence that he did anything to provoke being attacked. When the dispatcher told him not to follow Trayvon anymore, he didn’t. He says that at that point he returned to his truck and was attacked by Trayvon in which the teen violently beat Z about his head while he was pinned and screaming for help. I’m glad we have people like Zimmerman who care enough to actually report suspicious activities in the neighborhood. It’s an honorable thing that he does. All physical evidence and witness testimony supports Zimmerman’s version of events. Z allowed police to interrogate him for 5 hrs without a lawyer. That sounds a lot like an innocent man with nothing to hide.

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  28. Kimpost

    In other words, that was “what it looked like” without any pertinent facts and you were willing to unfairly “go after” Zimmerman based on your “feelings” and biases.. exactly what you accuse Alex of, but worse.

    *sigh* You’re entitled to your opinion, of course, but I don’t see the supposed attack of mine. Perhaps I shouldn’t have used the word “gross” with regards to neglect, and in a better world I wouldn’t have speculated at all. None of us would. Yet we did, and yet we still do. Guess it comes with the blog format. You’re still doing it by supporting some witness reports, and some character descriptions, without knowing the full story. You frankly seem ready to pin a medal on Zimmerman already.

    With the witness testimony supported by 911 tapes, how in the world do you STILL conclude that Zimmerman killed an ‘innocent’ man out of neglect?

    I don’t think that Zimmerman was looking for a confrontation. He might have caused one though, running after Martin. Perhaps he stopped the pursuit exactly when the dispatcher told him to, perhaps he didn’t, perhaps he was closer to Martin than he thought. Either way he set after him. And he was armed. If Martins girlfriend’s testimony is correct, then Martin was worried about being followed by a “strange man”. So worried that he eventually started running. If Martin came back, or if Zimmerman eventually saw him, we don’t know. Martin somehow asked why he was followed, Zimmerman asked who he was, then something unknown happened. That unknown is going to determine what happens to Zimmerman.

    Regarding what happened during the fight, as well as for the running incident, there are, IMO, witness reports kind of supporting both sides. The same goes for the character of both guys. I’m not going to keep speculating on what happened, before we know much more, but It wouldn’t surprise me if Zimmerman regrets some of his actions that day, and that Martin would too, had he been alive.

    The two morals of the story:
    1. Don’t carry a gun, while weirdly following people around. That’s just creepy.
    2. When being followed by a weird guy, and you appear to have gotten away, don’t turn around to confront the weirdo. And you should definitely not punch him. You are living in an armed society.

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  29. Mississippi Yankee

    Kimpost
    I’ve seen Missouri mules not back-up as well as you just did. And they’re almost as stubborn. Have you ever thought about hauling Borax™?

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  30. Mississippi Yankee

    It may seem lazy on my part but I can’t help but (link to) and admire how these three gentlemen can take a (or any) situation, deconstruct it and articulate what’s really happened.

    The mainstream media is determined to use the Trayvon Martin tragedy to push its agenda of racial division.

    And I’m still appalled that this story was purposely manipulate for over two fucking weeks before it was fed,like red meat to a dog,into the social conscious via an agenda driven MSM.

    Eighteen black youths have been shot in the last 7days. Where are their stories? Oh when they’re shot by other blacks it’s a non-issue? I get The Narrative™.

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  31. Poosh

    So it seems that facts and information are just all over the place, and we should refrain from passing judgment until better info is available? Or after the trial?

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  32. Hal_10000

    Well, said poosh.

    Mississippi, I’m not sill no clear why you’re on about how long it took for this story to go national. It’s not unusual at all for a perceived injustice to take weeks, months or even years to hit the national news. Sharpon is an ass but I really don’t care who brought his to our attention or why. What matters is what happened.

    There is WAY too much motive questioning in politics for my taste. Almost every issue instantly devolves into us and them. And if THEY are making the argument, it must be bad. If the Christians Right or the Tea Party support an issue, they must have evil intentions. We all know they’re a bunch of mindless racis bigots. Look, Stormfront supported the same issue once! OMG!!!

    And if Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson support an issue, they’re just race-baiting. I just don’t find that useful.

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  33. Mook

    Uh-oh. There’s now police surveillance video of zimmerman being taken in. He certainly doesn’t look like a man who was beaten to within an inch of his life:

    Judging by your “Uh-oh” comment, you infer this distance video is some sort of ‘smoking gun’ Hal. Yet the police report says he was bleeding from the nose and the head. EMTs had time to clean up his blood and injuries. How many hours after the fight was this video taken? Z looks cleaner than I would have expected, so this is definitely a data point, but broken noses are packed with unsee-able gauze from this far-away camera. And is the officer looking at a head wound at about 55 secs into the video, or is he admiring Z’s scalp? Again, the police report, and the police were surrounded by EMTs who treated him, say that Z was bleeding from the head and nose. Are you suggesting that they all lied? In collusion with one another, EMTs and police? Again, nothing definitive whatsoever, contrary to your “Uh-oh” gotcha characterization to the contrary.

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  34. Mississippi Yankee

    Hal,
    You see more (or less as the case may be) on your “Uh-oh” video.

    I, on the other hand, see media and racial manipulation during the time of the Trayvon incident and the time all the race baiters showed up 2 +weeks later. I’d say we (you and I) are at an ideological impasse.

    One final question tho… which statement is closest to your mind-set

    AsObama stated “If I had a son, he would look like Trayvon,” from the WH steps I might add.

    OR

    what Stephanie Cutter, Obama’s Deputy Campaign Manager, said on MSNBC today.

    “People have to stop politicizing it,” she added. “It’s no surprise that some of our Republican opponents are trying to make an issue with this. But the President spoke from the heart and we need to let the investigation take its course.”

    ‘Cause unlike the “Beer Summit” incident we seem to have official people speaking stupidly.

    Or maybe Dear Leader was saying all black people look alike. Hard to know but I think the puppet has slipped his tether.

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  35. ryansparx

    Dammit, the Race War better hurry up and get here before everyone’s panties unbunch and move on to the next big thing. WTF am I gonna do with all these sandbags and cans of food? I was already let down by the failed Rapture. I can’t take heartbreak twice.

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  36. ilovecress

    And I’m still appalled that this story was purposely manipulate for over two fucking weeks before it was fed,like red meat to a dog,into the social conscious via an agenda driven MSM.

    I’m not in the states, but the way I heard it – the story broke originally as outrage over the fact that Zimmerman hadn’t been arrested yet. It wasn’t about the incident, it was about the fact that two weeks had passed and nothing had been done.

    So maybe that’s why it took two weeks to hit the news. That and no singers died and no radio hosts said slut.

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  37. Kimpost

    Kimpost
    I’ve seen Missouri mules not back-up as well as you just did. And they’re almost as stubborn. Have you ever thought about hauling Borax™?

    I’d normally answer you, but that would be stubborn.

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  38. JimK

    And if Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson support an issue, they’re just race-baiting. I just don’t find that useful.

    But what are we supposed to do when it’s true? Just not mention it because you don’t find it “useful?”

    Your mind seems as made up, as early on, as those you are criticizing. You’re grabbing onto every and anything that supports the “Zimmerman’s a monster” angle. I’d tread a hell of a lot more lightly here. Open-mindedness, to butcher a metaphor, is a two-way street.

    I’m ready and willing to accept that Zimmerman was a criminally hostile douche that murdered a kid. I’m also ready to accept that he was simply asking a teenager what the hell the kid was doing in his neighborhood and the kid was hostile as all get out, and the kid attacked him first. I’m also willing to accept – and bet – the truth lies somewhere in between those two opposing points on the confrontation spectrum.

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  39. Hal_10000

    Your mind seems as made up, as early on, as those you are criticizing. You’re grabbing onto every and anything that supports the “Zimmerman’s a monster” angle. I’d tread a hell of a lot more lightly here. Open-mindedness, to butcher a metaphor, is a two-way street.

    Jim, if you read my first comment on the last post, I noted Zimmerman’s testimony and that this casts a different light on things that he states he was in danger. Also, read above, where I specifically said I think this was a tragic misunderstanding. My objections, however, stand. Kvetching about who brought this to our attention and why, digging into Trayvon’s past to portray him as a gang-banger — these are irrelevant.

    Mook, I’m no suggesting anyone lied. The problem is that all we have are leaks at this point. The statement that Z was injured was from his lawyer. The police said he was bleeding but the homicide detective stated that he didn’t believe his story and wanted him arrested. The video is disconcerting: no visible wounds, blood on clothes or any sign of distress. And he didn’t go to a doctor until the next day. The witnesses indicate he was being attacked, but one wants to retract her statement. It’s a mess. I’m just trying to take in the information as it comes.

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  40. AlexInCT *

    Mook, I’m no suggesting anyone lied.

    I am Hal. The media in this case has either proven beyond incompetent or they manufactured a story by omission of facts readily available to fit a preferred narrative that conveniently aids the political agenda of one group of people. I consider the LSM to be full of incompetent boobs, but in this case their incompetence was that their fabricated story was so quickly and easily debunked as a pack of lies.

    I am going to wait on the investigation to determine if Zimmerman or Martin was at fault or not. My suspicion is that we find out neither was and this whole thing was just a rash of real bad luck events culminating in a tragedy. But I am definetly goign to continue to point out that the LSM was lying to us and why.

    That’s the story here.

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  41. Mook

    The video is disconcerting: no visible wounds, blood on clothes or any sign of distress. And he didn’t go to a doctor until the next day. The witnesses indicate he was being attacked, but one wants to retract her statement.

    Why would you find the video “disconcerting” when there are perfectly logical explanations for everything you mention? Police could have let him change clothes, especially if they were blood drenched. I would imagine that interrogation video of someone drenched in blood would be considered prejudicial at the least. For that reason, it’s a solid bet that they cleaned up Zimmerman before bringing him in to the police station if he was covered in blood. And I can understand why, after a trauma like that, how anyone would not want to go to the hospital, but instead go home, even with a broken nose. Perfectly normal behavior. As for showing signs of distress, he didn’t look unusual to me. He was probably in shock. Again, he allowed police to interrogate him for 5 hours without a lawyer. That sounds like the actions of an honest person with nothing to hide

    I couldn’t find anything on a witness wanting to retract a statement. The one witness who called 911 said that he was “certain” that Trayvon was on top of Z pummeling him. Do you have a link on the witness who retracted her statement?

    There is another witness, a 13 yr old boy, who said it was too dark for him to see what was what. But police told his mom that Z’s actions were “not self defense”. Either those officers know something big, or they’re guilty of contaminating witness testimony with biased conclusions. Were other witnesses similarly influenced or pressured to change testimony? It’s disturbing that police can make such inflammatory assertions against a man who is presumed innocent, in which all physical evidence and witness testimony (that we’ve seen so far) supports Z’s version of events. What the fck are they doing telling witnesses it wasn’t self defense when they don’t know themselves? Police abuse of power?

    Since the police didn’t see the incident, they are relying on witness testimony in which the main witness is “certain” that Trayvon was on top of Z beating him.. when he yelled that he was calling 911, Trayvon didn’t stop the pummeling according to the witness

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  42. Hal_10000

    One thing I think we can all agree on. Maybe I should post this above the fold: Spike Lee is a fucking idiot. Did you see how he tweeted the address of a perfectly innocent couple? And refuses to back down. What a crappy excuse for a person.

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  43. Hal_10000

    Mook, I have to backtrack here. Just read on ABC that the video was after Z got medical attention. So you’re right and I’m wrong. :)

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  44. amlorusso

    Zimmerman had moral “duty” to follow him

    A duty is an obligation. It is something you are required to do.
    A moral duty is an obligation to do something because it is moral.
    Not acting on a moral duty is the opposite of morality.

    So …

    Not following a person (who you think is suspicious based on speculation) is immoral? AKA Evil?

    Morality and duty are heavyweight concepts. Together they form a concept that is the most serious, philosophically, with strong consequences. Don’t throw them around so lightly or you trivialise them, rendering them meaningless.

    (His position in the neighbourhood watch doesn’t change this argument)

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  45. Poosh

    It was arguably prudent that Zimmerman followed him, though not a moral duty.

    There are so many facts and unknown knowns, and known unknowns and so forth that it’s astounding how many have decided, almost arbitrarily, the truth of the matter.

    One thing is certain, and that is the moral ineptitude and shallow nature of many liberals – for the simple reason that a Hispanic has somehow morphed into a “white Hispanic”.

    I HOPE the Hispanic “community” take note that the liberals, who yearn for their votes and support, have thrown them under the bus when it comes between choosing between two races. I HOPE the GOP have noted this, play it sensible, and are prepared to point this truth out.

    Catholics – ‘uck ‘em. Hispanics – ‘uck ‘em. Pay attention GOP.

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  46. Mook

    Morality and duty are heavyweight concepts. Together they form a concept that is the most serious, philosophically, with strong consequences. Don’t throw them around so lightly or you trivialise them, rendering them meaningless.

    You’re splitting hairs to an extreme in order to try to shoot down a perfectly valid point – Z did the RIGHT THING in following what he believed to be a suspicious character in his neighborhood who didn’t live there. And a “moral duty” is an obligation arising out of considerations of right and wrong. “We must look after our neighbors”, for example, would be such an example of a moral duty. That pretty well describes what Z did from the evidence available. This is particularly important in light of the those saying that Z never should have followed the teen in the first place and he therefore is to blame for daring to investigate suspicious behavior. That’s nonsense. Good people investigate suspicious activity. Nothing controversial in the least about that IMO.

    And Poosh, please cut the bullshit inference that I ever claimed or suggested that I had the complete truth because I never suggested otherwise. Of course there are unknowns, I’m just trying to figure out the most likely scenario based over what is known. Did I ever suggest otherwise?

    Given that latino groups have thrown Z under the bus calling him a racist, I’m not sure how the GOP can capitalize on this.. other than to point out the truth that Z is 1/2 latino and question the motives of those who are smearing him as a racist. Not sure if they could get much political mileage out of that.

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  47. Mississippi Yankee

    I’m not sure how the GOP can capitalize on this.. other than to point out the truth that Z is 1/2 latino and question the motives of those who are smearing him as a racist. Not sure if they could get much political mileage out of that.

    Well, Obama is 1/2 black and gets plenty of mileage out of that. Now if only the right can grasp the fact that “this is Thunderdome™…”

    /just sayin’/

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  48. AlexInCT *

    There are so many facts and unknown knowns, and known unknowns and so forth that it’s astounding how many have decided, almost arbitrarily, the truth of the matter.

    Quit being so nice about this, Poosh. This has gone far beyond being a case of not all the details being available. There aren’t just unknowns, and unknown unknowns, as you nicely put it, but we are inundated with a plethora of outright manipulations and fabrications, lies of the basest and foulest kinds, all done by the LSM. Here is the latest one that NBC got caught doing. And unlike their false accusations and feigned indignation whenever they wanted to silence people like Breibart and O’Keefe, by basically pretending any kind of editing was done to not just sensationalize or abbreviate, but to obfuscate and character assassinate, selective editing that was precisely intended to create the appearance of evil intent is exactly and the only explanation for what NBC did here.

    Ask yourself what you think this investigation by NBC will uncover is the reason NBC purposefully edited a tape and removed key information so they could then make Zimmerman sound like he was a racist. Why the pictures, cute ones of a thirteen year old Martin and mug shots for Zimmerman? Why do we still have the LSM pretending that this was a racially motivated attack when the facts not only disprove that bullshit, but they all look like tools for keeping this lie alive. Before you answer, take a look at how many other things the media reported wrong or slanted to suit the narrative, when the facts where known.

    This story isn’t about the tragedy of Martin’s death, about Zimmerman killing him, or even about race relations in America. Not anymore. It is now afar bigger story about how our media did what they just did and how involved the political left was in this smear campaign intended to distract people from the horrible beating the economy and the left’s policies and usurpations are currently taking. Anyone ignoring that angle and trying to drag us back to the other arguments is doing so for some ulterior motive and their motives should be suspected.

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  49. Poosh

    I’m was trying to be more mellow about things, or perhaps I spent all my rage elsewhere in regard to the fact that we’re not locking up British citizens for saying “Wog” on twitter. You’re right, and perhaps even more right if I was to look into it, about the sinister side of this.

    And Mook I was referring to the public more than anyone else, but I wasn’t labeling you out specifically, and I don’t really know why you thought I was talking about you. Twas not an attack on you.

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  50. Poosh

    After watching your link Alex, I hate to say it, but the News TV media here in the UK have pretty much done the same thing, though they presumably are just parroting the liberal media in the US.

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