Knee Jerk Much?

Carrying the discussion over from the other thread, the typical government solutionreaction has raised it’s ugly head:

All four of the U.S. Marines seen in an outrageous video urinating on dead Afghan bodies have been identified and could face criminal charges ‘within hours’ over the incident, it emerged today.
Two men have so far been interviewed but not detained – and the group could face criminal charges on Friday of bringing dishonour to the armed forces, reported CNN, CBS and ABC News.

“Criminal charges”, are you kidding me?

When I first saw the original video and wrote the post, two things were blatantly obvious:
1) The usual suspects, the apologists and the appeasers would jump in with both feet and make the moral equivalence to that of Abu Gharib and My Lai.
2) The incident would cause shame/embarrassment and much damage control within the military and administration.

Given the ruckus caused by those inaccurate reports of flushed Korans at Gitmo, I figured more expressway to Abu Gharib trips would be made with this incident as well. The outrage is no surprise and the requisite punishment (why only 4 guys in the grease, shouldn’t the videographer go down as well?) isn’t either. But this nonsense about criminal charges is very troubling and I would hope that cooler heads prevail and inject some sanity and reason in to the mix.

I suspect that these guys are going to be “sacrificed” onto the PC alter and it makes me sick. The military, if left to their own devices and code of conduct, is very good at understanding and evaluating the fog of war. They get the stresses of the battlefield and can police their own just fine. But this boondoggle has been foisted into the realm of public sentiment, so now those lacking in the requisite training will get their say and will get to influence the outcome, not good. What would have been a military affair now gets thrown in to the public square. We will now have mob rule, too bad for us.

I can see a demotion in rank, loss of pay for a month, even KP duty (Do they still do that?), or even worse, kicking these guys off of the sniper team, that would be about the worse punishment you can think of. But if they get thrown to the wolves and get booted out of the military with a dishonorable, or have to serve even one day of jail time, I will be outraged and I hope the rest of the sane people thru out the world will be as well.

We have a good opportunity here to see if (and show the rest of the world) that we can be adults about this. Let’s see what happens.

Comments are closed.

  1. ryansparx

    I’m not ashamed to admit that I’m a urinator, but you don’t need to be standing at the pisser every Sunday to know there’s something wrong in this country when gays can serve openly in the military but our Marines can’t openly piss on the corpses of our mortal enemies. As President, I’ll end Obama’s war on urine. And I’ll fight against liberal attacks on our heritage. Bladders made America strong. It can make her strong again.

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  2. AlexInCT

    The funny thing is that the very people that seem the most “offended” by this bullshit also are the ones that tell us we are making a mountain out of a mole hill, or worse, that we had it coming, whenever the other side does real horrible and evil things to us. We must treat these murderers with kid gloves while they saw off our heads with rusty knife. I am sure there are many amongst the victims of these monsters that would have paid for the privilege to do much worse to these scumbags.

    It reminds me of the double standard that allows one set of rules to apply to their liberal friends and another to the people they hate. Wish they hated the people that want to kill us as much as they hate people that do not believe collectivism is going to do anything but make life miserable for everyone.

    When someone regularly engages in acts of barbarity and evil that kills your friends, I am surprised that these Marines only pissed on them. I have held for a long time now that if we made it our policy and communicated it to them that we will wrap these fuckers up in pig skin and bury them upside down – something they believe will deny them heaven – that a lot of them would lose their appetite for Jihad.

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  3. mrblume

    Why shouldn’t the amazing correctional effectiveness of criminal prosecution work equally as well in the military, as it does for disruptive school children?

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  4. richtaylor365 *

    When I talked about a sane and rational response, this is kinda what I had in mind:

    “I have sat back and assessed the incident with the video of our Marines urinating on Taliban corpses. I do not recall any self-righteous indignation when our Delta snipers Shugart and Gordon had their bodies dragged through Mogadishu. Neither do I recall media outrage and condemnation of our Blackwater security contractors being killed, their bodies burned, and hung from a bridge in Fallujah.

    “All these over-emotional pundits and armchair quarterbacks need to chill. Does anyone remember the two Soldiers from the 101st Airborne Division who were beheaded and gutted in Iraq?

    “The Marines were wrong. Give them a maximum punishment under field grade level Article 15 (non-judicial punishment), place a General Officer level letter of reprimand in their personnel file, and have them in full dress uniform stand before their Battalion, each personally apologize to God, Country, and Corps videotaped and conclude by singing the full US Marine Corps Hymn without a teleprompter.

    “As for everyone else, unless you have been shot at by the Taliban, shut your mouth, war is hell.”

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  5. AlexInCT

    Ain’t it funny that the same people pushing this, over and over, are the same ones that tell us footage showing the horror of 9/11 at the WTC or the people dancing in celebration because of the deaths caused on 9/11 should not be shown, because it is antagonizing and will only incite Americans to stiek back in anger? I mean, there is no coincidence here right?

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  6. Mississippi Yankee

    Personally, I think this is a much bigger deal…

    Seriously? I find your ‘apples and oranges’ example as being even more disingenuous than Kimpost’s comment about how the whole world will somehow hate us and want to kill us more.

    Not to mention these alleged stories concern two totally different branches of the service, but most importantly two totally different military disciplines.

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  7. hohokiss

    The Chen suicide story fits the global stereotype of Americans being asses no matter what they do, where they go, and how and with whom they interact. These soldiers supposedly volunteered to win hearts and minds and make the world a better place, had a deadly war to fight, yet sat around doing typical roundeye things.
    Folks argue theres always one or two bad guys here and there, but the odds that 8 baddies somehow managed to be put into 3rd Battalion with one minority have to be rather small. Did nobody else notice their antics, or were they all pulling a Paterno for the sake of the bigger cause? Could be they just didn’t give a shit and which way.

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  8. richtaylor365 *

    Gee, Hoho, really? ” the global stereotype of Americans being asses no matter what they do”, this is how you think the rest of world views us?

    And how prescient of you to know exactly what happened, all from one newspaper article. If everyone was as wise as you there would be no need for juries or trials, right? I guess you believe everything you read, convenient if nothing else.

    How about this, before you go all commando on us and make sweeping proclamations about how this one act validates some stereotype you think exists, how about we let it play out first and let the military handle it. The article said that 8 soldiers were being charged with various crimes, there you go, no one is getting away with anything, allow the military justice system to play out like it’s suppose to before you go spouting nonsense about all Americans being asses.

    Were you ever in the military? Not condoning what happened here (I really don’t know what happened) but verbal abuse, giving and taking, is part and parcel of military life. There is a maturation and hardening process involved, everyone goes thru it.

    And I’d be curious to see how they are going to prove manslaughter or negligent homicide when this guy crawls up into a guard tower and offs himself.

    You probably thought Tyler Clemteni’s room mate, the scumbag that secretly set up a video cam in his dorm, taped Tyler having sex with another man then posted it on the internet, should have also been charged with manslaughter or negligent homicide, like he knew before hand that Tyler would throw himself off of a bridge. Yes, it was a dick move, the guy should do time for something, but Tyler killed himself, he did it, not the room mate.

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  9. Section8

    Gee, Hoho, really? ” the global stereotype of Americans being asses no matter what they do”, this is how you think the rest of world views us?

    Where the hell have you been Rich? Much of the world does view us this way including our so-called allies, based on small bits of reality, and big chunks of the imagined, but that’s how it works. Wake up man.

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  10. Poosh

    The suicide story is by far more important and needing the media’s attention. But he’s Asian and I guess the liberal media aren’t bothered about racism when it doesn’t affect one of their designated victim groups. If he was black, muslim or gay, it would be another story. Can you imagine, especially, if this was a muslim or gay soldier? You wouldn’t hear the end of it.

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  11. richtaylor365 *

    but that’s how it works

    Sorry but as the premise was stated, ” story fits the global stereotype of Americans being asses no matter what they do”, I don’t buy it.

    Not saying that there does not exist some antagonism, jealousy, envy, and hatred, but “global stereotype of Americans being asses” indicates a prevalent predominant attitude that most of the world shares and I don’t think that is accurate.

    Tell you what, if our foreign members (CM, Kim, Poosh, and Cress) tell me that I’m wrong and they believe that is how the rest of the world views us then I’ll admit I’m wrong. I’ve been wrong before.

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  12. HARLEY

    I am upset that these Marines, allowed themselves to be videotaped……… they should have known better. someone had it out for them.

    If this had been SS Deathshead/GrossDeuchland. NO ONE would give a shit, a brief blurb on the news, and gone. IF you are upset about this please remember Who the Taliban are, and the way they ran their society…..

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  13. Poosh

    AlexInCT:

    I am surprised that these Marines only pissed on them.

    HARLEY:

    If this had been SS Deathshead/GrossDeuchland. NO ONE would give a shit

    Exactly. You have to ask yourself of the motives behind those who decide to present this as the no.1 news piece, and who seem to be going out of their way to make sure this is an international scandal. And a big question-mark needs to be placed over such people, in terms of patriotism and loyalty, not just their own lack of morality.

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  14. Section8

    If this had been SS Deathshead/GrossDeuchland. NO ONE would give a shit, a brief blurb on the news, and gone.

    Too bad we didn’t pull out of the European theater in WWII at the first sign of anything remotely unbecoming of gentlemanly like behavior in war by our allies. We could have saved a bunch of our own guys.

    We’ve lost far more people defending others on their soil than we have defending our own survival. We finally ask for some help and we we get some to do so begrudgingly much to the ire of their populace. This Taliban shit is tame by comparison, and while the world pisses on us at every opportunity, they can also thank us for the decades of unprecedented peace. We’ll be out of the picture as the top police dog either by choice or by spending ourselves to death, and it’s going to be soon either way, then we’ll see how things go. Given history, I don’t have too much hope, but if we play it smart, we’ll be fine. And if the people of this country would wake the fuck up, they’d realize limiting our scope and focusing on ourselves would be the best path to take.

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  15. hohokiss

    Watching the piss video through German eyes I conclude: “Ha. Typical Ami. They lost another war in Iraq, and of course have to take it out on some unarmed Afghan peasants…. who are kicking them out, too. But, hey, the Afghans started it with 9/11, right? ‘Hearts and minds, eh’. Pah.”

    Some folks might could buy the “hardships of war” excuse if one of the pissers had prepared some deep poetic statement, like “This is war. This is for 9/11″ But all the perps do is lamely stand around with limp dicks in hand, smiling “So, how ’bout them Packers?” Typical.

    And I don’t know exactly what transpired with the Chinese kid, but I won’t buy any loyal patriot’s claiming the kid was some kind of “weak link who put the entire battalion in jeopardy! We had no other choice!” You had nothing else to do?
    You’ll now first new to convince me it wasn’t yer standard high school dropouts who couldn’t get any other job than the US military sitting around with limp dick in hand, laughingly harassing minorities.

    Thats how it works in the real world.

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  16. Jim

    If he was black, muslim or gay, it would be another story. Can you imagine, especially, if this was a muslim or gay soldier?

    Can you imagine if he was black, muslim *and* gay? Olbermann’s head would have imploded, as well as several other commentators.

    What I find interesting about this marine situation is how often some people in media make comments like, oh, wishing a bomber had succeeded in getting the Vice President and it seems to glide on by. I seem to recall on different occasions pancreatic cancer being wished on conservative pundits.
    Also of note, how many people here have heard a news story recited at work, in public, or maybe online, wherein the perpetrator does something truly horrific, like torturing a young child for days before killing them. Quite often the common phrases heard are “The death penalty is too good for that guy. ” or “They should torture him, cut off his balls, and force feed them to him.” or “Leave me alone in a room with him for five minutes.”
    Further, when seeing a story like “Father guns down daughter’s rapist”, how many of us have thought to ourselves, or said out loud, “I may not agree with what he did, but I would probably have done the same thing.” Or even “Damn right!”.
    Suddenly, when several men are seen to have done the exact thing so many people claim they would do, or worse, it’s the end of America as we know it? I do not condone what these soldiers did, but I can definitely understand it. Keep in mind, these were *dead* terrorists. I realize respecting the dead is a good thing, but isn’t it better to respect the *living*? War is hell, people die in war. What happens to living people is far *far* worse than having someone pee on you when you are already dead. Let’s try to get some sense of perspective.

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  17. hohokiss

    I went over to youtube and pulled up a random piss video and immediately found this German quote:

    Beruflich töten ist sowieso ein Zeichen von tiefster Entmenschlichung.
    Die Toten allerdings mit größtem Vergnügen noch nach dem Ableben nachhaltig demütigen zu wollen zeugt einfach von absoluter Primitivität.
    Leider sind viel zuviel solcher Unmenschen von Waffen und dem Milität fasziniert. Wegen solcher Kreaturen wird es leider immer wieder Krieg geben. :-(
    Quargelbrot1 1 day ago

    Just as I said they would. Ah, piss on ‘em all.

    youtube is also the place where 2 young men recently posted a video of themselves beating a homeless guy for fun.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjjNNFaj1IM
    And the endless profane comments under them are pretty much about revenge a la

    Quite often the common phrases heard are “The death penalty is too good for that guy. ” or “They should torture him, cut off his balls, and force feed them to him.” or “Leave me alone in a room with him for five minutes.”

    “Beat those fags to death! Get the fuckers raped in jail hahaha!”
    And, no, its not “just a few isolated incidents. A few bad apples”.
    Not word about how and why society got to the point where dudes automatically assume its cool to score with peers by making such a video, and the bum is just a prop to get there.
    Looks like youtube’s raising the kids. Users once signed their own names under youtube’s Terms, agreeing to keep it clean, but somehow, when they see something bad on a video, just have no other choice than to get real and speak their minds. Fuck it. And, yep, its mostly crude, vulgar, profane, semi-literate.
    Whats the real issue here, then?

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  18. hohokiss

    I’m just describing what I saw. It all adds up to a bunch of generic Yankees. They could’ve said something smart, is what I’m arguing.

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  19. Poosh

    Let’s try to get some sense of perspective.

    But don’t you see what has happened and is being continuously done to the western world by liberalism/leftism in general, be it through the media or through liberal/leftist dominated academia (which informs and shapes the people who find their way into the media for the most part)? No doubt you do but for those who haven’t picked up on it, the left/liberalism is all about destroying the self-evident, our own accurate interpretations of reality and turning reality on its head. They are very much in the business of creating false interpretations of reality, including false narratives, and trying their damn best to manipulate and brainwash people into accepting these reinterpreted accounts of reality – which would include morality. There is no moral core, or rational basis for their interpretations, it’s all about what suits them in the moment, shallowness – which is why they are full of contradictions and hypocrisy. How else can c*nts like Michael Moore stand up and say “eat the rich” etc, yet on the other hand become a millionaire via capitalism whilst hiring cheap labour? And many people who agree with him and support him KNOW this at the back of their minds. The twilight-zone reaction and created narrative around this pissing event just shows how bad things have got. We cannot escape it and it is day by day destroying us.

    The master-stroke was the total fictional creation of a character called “George Bush.” I suspect very few people know the real Bush, as liberalism has only made available a false version of him – certainly in Europe. Which leads to this: when Bush visited the UK, he met with the third party – the Liberal Democrats (the most liberal). Their leader and deputy met with the President (Bush did not have to meet them, they were a small third party, he could have brushed them aside, and yet Bush did). Both Liberal Democrats came out of that meeting shocked and – on record – said they were astounded by how intelligent, educated and articulate Bush was, and how decent he was. Such is the power of letting the left hold the reigns of interpretation that they can be reduced to shock when sheer reality hits them in the face.

    How can free-thinking individuals and conservatives/rightists/libertarians/real liberals fight back against this power though?

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  20. Section8

    I’m just describing what I saw. It all adds up to a bunch of generic Yankees. They could’ve said something smart, is what I’m arguing.

    Help me out here, who could have said something smart, the Yankees pissing on a dead guy, or the Germans commenting about the Yankees pissing on a dead guy?

    I’ll be honest, I can’t tell whether you’re making a mockery of the typical reaction we get from our “friends” whenever they can dig up an indecent to exploit their narratives regarding the US, or are just a part of that typical reaction.

    As far as youtube, it being the open forum is going to have scumbags on there. Perhaps most people who would post a sensible reaction choose not to watch.

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  21. hohokiss

    The Marines were acting like the kind of generic asses I wouldn’t hang out with in private, and their nonchalantly urinating on people they’d maybe killed or murdered and filming it explains why.

    I take issue with their being asses on the job, in costume, representing and paid by the USA,

    The milatary brass says its disappointed, too, and it know what the poor lads have been through better than most here at home.

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  22. Section8

    The milatary brass says its disappointed, too, and it know what the poor lads have been through better than most here at home.

    Why would they be disappointed then? The behavior is just that of the typical generic asses that make up the inhabitants of the USA. I mean we see Marines doing this every day don’t we? Hell, one just pissed on me 5 minutes ago. As far as murdered, do you have any evidence, or since the pissing narrative hasn’t gone far enough we’ll move on the imagined murder scenario. Why stop there, I bet we used chemical weapons on them, then pissed on them. Also, why do you spend your day watching people on the street getting beat up? Sounds like a more dignified way to spend one’s time. Please enlighten me on how the more civilized live spending their day searching for whatever garbage video they can dig up.

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  23. hohokiss

    I have no evidence that these bodies were enemy combatants, or lawfully killed by Marines in self defence. Not that it matters. Afghans don’t have laws, anyhow. So how about them Packers, eh.

    What we have is Marines urinating on corpses and Americans stateside VULGARLY CHEERING THEM ON IN CAPS FUCK YEAH!!!! , no matter what. (Thats precisley what Islamists do in their caves, too, I’ve read) And, like I said, thats not surprising to folks abroad; they shrug like they did after 9/11.

    Tell me, if somehow, somewhere, a video should now emerge of anyone urinating on a US soldier’s body, do we mock the raghead’s penis size, admonish their maybe breaking some Muslim rule, damn hippocrites, chide their lack of originality, crudely vow revenge on them via youtube, promising to PEE AND SHIT ON THE NEXT DAMN RAGHEAD GET UPPITY. Or say, aw shoot, that was avoidable.

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  24. Poosh

    I can’t tell if hohokiss is being satirical or is just an idiot but

    So if an American soldier pissed on a Nazi, and then a Nazi pissed on an allied soldier, that would be cool with you? You’d think there was a relative balance of action there or what not?

    Keeping in mind at least the Nazi wears a fucking uniform and does not cower in civilians as his primary tactic.

    Islamists constantly mutilate the bodies of their enemies. They mutilate the bodies of Muslims who aren’t “Muslim” enough. I think the majority of corpses that have been violated by Islamists would prefer to just be pissed on, than their actual fate. In fact if the terrorist reaction to this non-event is to piss on the bodies of the good soldiers they murder, then that would actually be a better state of affairs that that which held in the past.

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  25. hohokiss

    “Well, they started it. They do it, too”
    Not all adults react and argue that way after 1st or 2nd grade.
    And this is why the outside world shrugs “Those goddamn uncultured monkeys deserve each other. Which side is gonna finally be adult enough to stop doing it, again? To find a way?”

    Piss on it, hahaha.

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  26. Section8

    What we have is Marines urinating on corpses and Americans stateside VULGARLY CHEERING THEM ON IN CAPS FUCK YEAH!!!! , no matter what. (Thats precisley what Islamists do in their caves, too, I’ve read) And, like I said, thats not surprising to folks abroad; they shrug like they did after 9/11.

    Hey well at least they didn’t find a town, accuse them of being Jews and toss them in an oven. Standard practice in Germany when they can get away with it from what I understand. Anyhow, Yes, you can go on youtube, and find whatever quotes will fit your narrative. As far as European criticism of us, no nation has less of a moral compass to judge by than Germany. I mean you guys are the standard bearers of evil. Think about it. [put someone you despise here] = Hitler (your Messiah). Yes, after two massive wars, there’s a little quiet time for you guys now and I guess you can use our modern day relatively petty offenses to try to absolve your history, but you’ll be back to your ways soon. Our war with the Taliban was a response to an action they initiated , where as Germans seem to like to start wars for the hell of it. So while you spend time back in Germany again, and discuss how the bad seeds moved to America, you might want to think about the reality that the worst of the worst actually stayed in Europe to display their “civilized” behavior in all its glory. Good for you!

    As far as people shrugging after 9/11, we weren’t currently involved with fighting people who blew up our buildings prior to that, so did they shrug because they were clairvoyant and knew this would happen? That some day there would be a few videos that would come out? Maybe we should have learned our lessons from Germany, and not be so open as to air all our dirty laundry, and just picked up a good propaganda minister.

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  27. Section8

    Perhaps if we ever get smart enough to finally leave the old, useless, and pathetic joke of an alliance called NATO, we could replace our personnel with the Taliban. Apparently Europeans are too stupid to tell the difference anyhow, as their analysis consists of you tube videos and you tube reactions (well at least for one guy anyhow) and would never noticed we had left.

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  28. Section8

    That I am. He’s not perfect, but he’s the first guy, not only in this lousy bunch of GOP candidates presented to us, but in a long line of lousy candidates over the years to have the right ideas over all to restore our country and its prosperity. I don’t think thing isolationism and losing the Fed are insane ideas, but I do realize I’m in the minority on that one. Hopefully that will change some day.

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  29. hohokiss

    As far as European criticism of us, no nation has less of a moral compass to judge by than Germany. I mean you guys are the standard bearers of evil.

    No nation should have a better idea of whos being a brownshirt and who is losing their wars, either. Germans tried twice for world dominancy, the Taliban is trying spread Islam by force and terror, the US is supposedly in it to spread, peace, love and democracy, yet lapses a lil now and then because, well, “they do it, too”.
    Korea, Vietnam and more recently Operation Iraqi Freedom “to disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction, to end Saddam Hussein’s alleged support for terrorism, and to free the Iraqi people.”

    “Between January 3 and April 12, 2003, 36 million people across the globe took part in almost 3,000 protests against the Iraq war”

    Yeah, well, piss on all of them.

    http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-01-03/iraq-war-lives-on-as-second-costliest-u-s-conflict-fuels-debt.html

    Dec. 27 (Bloomberg) — The war in Iraq is officially over. The costs will go on.

    Eight years of dodging improvised explosive devices, repelling insurgent ambushes and quelling sectarian strife already has drained the U.S. of more treasure than any conflict in the nation’s history except World War II.

    Even though the last U.S. combat troops have left Iraq, American taxpayers will face decades of additional expenses, from veterans’ health care and disability benefits to interest on the debt accumulated to finance the war.

    “Those costs are going to build for years,” said Todd Harrison, a senior fellow at the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments, a Washington-based research group.

    Direct federal spending on the war through 2012 will reach $823 billion, surpassing the $738 billion in inflation-adjusted dollars the U.S. spent on the Vietnam War, the Congressional Research Service estimated in a March 29 report. Only World War II had a higher direct cost, $4.1 trillion, in current dollars.

    Bilmes also estimates the price over the next 40 years of health care and disability compensation for veterans of the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts will be almost $1 trillion.

    “The veterans’ costs in particular will dwarf the other budget costs,” said Bilmes, who was an assistant commerce secretary under President Bill Clinton.

    Rumsfeld rejected as “baloney” a September 2002 comment made by Lawrence Lindsey, then director of Bush’s National Economic Council, that the war might require $100 billion to $200 billion in spending. Lindsey was forced out of his position several months later.

    At the peak of spending on Iraq in 2008, direct costs represented 1 percent of U.S. gross domestic product. The portion of GDP devoted to war expenditures during the peak year of spending on Vietnam was 2.3 percent, 4.2 percent in Korea and 35.8 percent in World War II, according to the Congressional Research Service.

    “The war cost has been affordable,” said Gordon Adams, associate director for national security at the Office of Management and Budget during the Clinton administration and now a professor of international relations at American University in Washington. “The worrisome question has been what is the cost of running a high federal deficit? That’s a financing question: how we chose to finance the war.”

    The war has exacted a toll on the broader economy as its consequences rippled through families, businesses and world oil and financial markets. Two separate teams of academics who have sought to determine the economic toll of the conflict estimated it at between $3 trillion and $4 trillion.

    ‘People Worse Off’

    “The war made people worse off during the last decade and it added to the debt load on every American,” said Bilmes, who co-wrote the 2008 book “The Three Trillion Dollar War: The True Cost of the Iraq Conflict” with Joseph Stiglitz. She said they now estimate the price tag at $4 trillion.

    Brown University’s “Costs of War” project estimates the overall expense of the wars since the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks at $5.1 trillion, of which $3.2 trillion can be attributed to Iraq, said Catherine Lutz, the project’s co-director and a professor of anthropology at Brown’s Watson Institute for International Studies.

    Stiglitz, a Nobel laureate and former chief economist of the World Bank, argues in the book that the war debt encouraged the loose monetary policy that exacerbated the housing bubble and the resulting financial crisis. The debt from the war also limited the Obama administration’s fiscal and political leeway to stimulate the economy during the recession, he said.

    Oil Market

    The price per barrel of Brent crude, which traded at $26.75 on the eve of the war in March 2003, climbed to a peak of $146.08 on July 3, 2008, according to data compiled by Bloomberg.

    While stronger demand from China and India also contributed to higher crude, Stiglitz attributes between $5 and $10 of the increase to the Iraq war. The impact on the oil market reduced economic growth in the U.S. by $800 billion over eight years, he and Bilmes estimate under one scenario they term “realistic.”

    Daniel Yergin, chairman of IHS Cambridge Energy Research Associates, said disruption of Iraqi oil supplies was one reason for the run-up in prices. Yet it’s hard to quantify how much the turmoil added to the amount, said Yergin, author of “The Quest: Energy, Security and the Remaking of the Modern World.”

    “Iraq was part of a larger pattern of disruptions that also included Nigeria, Venezuela and Hurricanes Katrina and Rita,” Yergin said. “The single most important factor was the surge in demand from China and the emerging markets.”

    Health Costs

    The most expensive financial legacy of the war is likely to be the cost of providing for those who fought.

    Veterans from Iraq and Afghanistan are applying for disability benefits and seeking medical treatment at higher rates than those of previous conflicts, Bilmes wrote in a June study.

    In part because of improvements in battlefield medicine, more than 90 percent of troops wounded in Iraq survived their injuries, up from 86.5 percent in the Vietnam War, according to the Congressional Budget Office. Those troops are returning home with more complex and serious injuries.

    Almost one in five service members who deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan showed symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder or major depression, according to a 2008 RAND study. About the same portion sustained a traumatic brain injury.

    Surge of Applicants

    Through Oct. 31, more than 646,000 veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan had applied for disability coverage, according to a Department of Veterans Affairs compilation obtained by Veterans for Common Sense, an advocacy group. That is 44 percent of veterans from the conflicts who have been discharged from the military so far. Veterans become eligible for benefits after discharge.

    “Based on current trends, we’re looking at 1 million veterans patients by the end of 2013,” Sullivan said.

    Education Spending

    Bilmes estimates the present value of veterans’ medical and disability payments over the next 40 years at between $600 billion and $1 trillion. Other benefits such as full education costs awarded in the 2008 GI Bill make it likely the tally will be closer to $1 trillion, she said.

    Also, there are five million orphans in Iraq, seventy percent of Iraqi children suffer from trauma-related symptoms, nearly 30 percent of US troops on their third deployment suffered from serious mental-health problems.
    Piss on it all, woohoo, and piss on them Taliban.

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  30. Section8

    And this is why the outside world shrugs “Those goddamn uncultured monkeys deserve each other. Which side is gonna finally be adult enough to stop doing it, again? To find a way?”

    Right, so when you said 9/11 is good karma in the other tread, what did that mean? We deserved such a blind side attack because we did (far less) bad things (in the future)? Sounds EXACTLY like the first and second grade logic you just mocked, so no superior logic there since it loops right back around, so we can get your joke of an argument out of the way. Let’s just be realistic OK? When it comes to wars, people tend to sympathize with one side over the other. America is the big kid on the block, many Europeans resent that, so their sympathy is for the one going up against the big guy. “Time those assholes learned their lesson.” Doesn’t mean they like the other group, it’s more of the I’ll tolerate the enemy of my enemy, and I have little doubt that’s the prevailing thought with the populations of our Western European “allies” as we’ve treated you guys so poorly and hoping Russia would build 5 more walls in Germany rather than tearing down that one wall and all.

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  31. hohokiss

    Apparently Europeans are too stupid to tell the difference anyhow, as their analysis consists of you tube videos and you tube reactions

    The US has occupied Germany since ’45. Their reputation there came from first-hand experience, not youtube, so deny it all you like, but there are indeed distinct parallels betwixt the two “cultures”.

    http://www.thelocal.de/national/20120113-40099.html

    Approximately 41,000 US Army personnel are currently based in Europe, with the majority in Germany. There are about 80,000 US military personnel, including the Navy, Air Force and Marine Corps members in Europe
    US authorities have been steadily reducing their European forces since the end of the Cold War, when more than 200,000 US military personnel were stationed on the continent.
    The British government has also announced a withdrawal of its own, with half of the country’s 20,000 Germany-based troops returning home by 2015 and the rest leaving by 2020.
    The US military will withdraw thousands of soldiers from Germany as the American military takes half of its troops out of Europe as part of a forces redeployment to focus more on the Middle East and Asia.

    What a colossal waste of time and money it was, too. Maybe the Middle East and Asia will offer more hearts and minds.

    Panetta played down the effect of the withdrawal on European communities by saying that many combat troops had been sent to Afghanistan and Iraq in recent years anyway.

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  32. Section8

    The US has occupied Germany since ’45. Their reputation there came from first-hand experience, not youtube, so deny it all you like, but there are indeed distinct parallels betwixt the two “cultures”.

    Which cultures? Ours and the Taliban, or yours and the Taliban who hate Jews for being Jews. I guess they are a good proxy for you guys.

    It seems your new dominance in the EU is winning the hearts and minds of Greece. You guys are off to a good start (again). Soon you’ll have that Panzer factory up and running and you’ll be able to take care of that bitching. No cameras allowed of course.

    As far as occupation, has your government demanded we leave? No need to argue with me on it, I’m all for it. Had we known what we know now it would have been much better if Stalin took it all. As far as Iraq, you’ve already pointed out your hatred of America was already prior to that anyhow. Iraq has been debated here already (which I don’t think we should have gone in by the way) so I’m not going to waste time on it. Anyhow, keep posting, I love it. Been on any French or GB sites regarding their little stunt in Libya? Helping rebels who singled out blacks for torture? Way over reaching on the beloved UN mandate, and of course our ass got dragged in as well because we are too stupid to say no (I’ll give you that), but I’m not happy about it. After all the bullshit of “cultured” society, it didn’t take long for the “cultured” society to start pulling the same shit over there did it?

    Hey Rich gotten any response back from your other people yet? Poosh is a good guy and that’s not new, but he’s in the minority. You keep waiting though. I bet the other two are agreeing with this guy 100%. Let’s be realistic.

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  33. hohokiss

    Right, so when you said 9/11 is good karma in the other tread, what did that mean? We deserved such a blind side attack because we did (far less) bad things (in the future)?

    The only people “blind” to this attack were the US. The Euros had had to deal with Russian-aided terrorists since the peace and love 60s, yet found their routinely pissing on their “puppet US imperialist regimes” via bombings, kidnap and murder oddly satisfying (like folks applauding US soldiers pissing on corpses?)
    The Russkis went bankrupt in ’89, yet the US stayed in Europe instead of letting the Euros finally run their own shit. And instead of offering peace and love to lawless Afghanistan after the Russians left it, too, they dicked around in the Middle East, for oil, its said, inspiring Bin Laden to issue his deadly fatwas among willing disciples, until it all came together in 2001.
    Much sympathy the EU had for the US post 9/11 was diminished again when Bush started calling North Korea, Iran, and Iraq the “axis of evil,” and feared that the US, cowboys they were, would go out and act unilaterally. Sure enough, Bush went out to “free” Iraq (maybe even Iran after that?) and piss on Saddam, haha, as a world record 3 million demonstrated in Rome in ’03 against this US “war on terror”.
    Fuck em all in return”, says yer average American. “They don’t know the issues.”

    In this link theres a little graph showing levels of anti-Americanism in countries most Yanks couldn’t find on a map.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Americanism

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  34. Section8

    Hohokiss is an American, just to be clear. He has spent a lot of time in Germany though.

    I believe he said he was half German and half American, and has told his story about how he and his German buds view Americans, between his ramblings about youtube and whatever.

    Often the reaction is towards US govt policy, rather than American’s in general.

    Really? So the comments I’ve read and heard from our “friends” about us being fat, lazy, stupid and the like was really a description of our policy? Hmmm.

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  35. hohokiss

    I’d agree with Rich’s middle paragraph. Often the reaction is towards US govt policy, rather than American’s in general.

    So getting back to the topic, are the soldier’s actions a result of “American culture” or “American policy” or not that terrible any which old way.

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  36. hohokiss

    And when we tried to leave some German bases….
    Get your facts straight chief, and bitch to the Mayors of Germany, not us.

    I have them straight.

    Kurz and his Heidelberg counterpart Eckart Würzner fear the closure of the bases will deal a blow to the Rhine-Neckar region’s economy. Würzner said he estimated the region will lose an
    estimated €35 to €45 million through the move.

    Money talks. As an ordinary German I have to ask what good moving 30k troops all of 80 km north could possibly benefit the German people to better defend them, and what to do with the bases themselves. old and rank and stuffed with asbestos. etc. as they are. I’ll bet the US isn’t going to pay for getting rid ot its old crap. Again, thinking about themselves and their own worries, only.

    But the two said that the severe financial crisis in the United States might force the new Obama administration to rethink the decision to relocate troops.
    “After all the move is estimated to cost around a €1 billion,” said Würzner

    Theres a severe financial crisis in the US? Well theres one across Europe too, so they need to STFU about crises…..

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  37. hohokiss

    I’m going to keep getting back to the pissing incident which I feel was totally, completely, sub-asinine, hillbilly redneck stupid and theres no excuse for it i can see thus far

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  38. Section8

    Money talks. As an ordinary German I have to ask what good moving 30k troops all of 80 km north could possibly benefit the German people to better defend them, and what to do with the bases themselves. old and rank and stuffed with asbestos. etc. as they are. I’ll bet the US isn’t going to pay for getting rid ot its old crap. Again, thinking about themselves and their own worries, only.

    Better to defend them? We’re occupying remember? I would think a German would be delighted even if the movement was 50 or so miles away. I had ask this before in an earlier post, has the German government asked or demanded us to leave? As far as the bases, I suppose we could dismantle and clean up, and while we’re at it dismantle anything we helped rebuild after the war. Since we only think of ourselves, anything built was purely for our benefit. Fair enough?

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  39. Section8

    I’m going to keep getting back to the pissing incident which I feel was totally, completely, sub-asinine, hillbilly redneck stupid and theres no excuse for it i can see thus far

    Why bother, you’ve already made it clear your vast disdain for this country anyhow. Why bother focusing on a pissing incident when you have pulled out an entire laundry list of what shitbags we are. Are you in to pissing on people or something? I mean I do realize that’s a popular German sex thing like eating each other’s shit, so maybe this whole thing is a secret turn on for you.

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  40. hohokiss

    lol excuse me, but there are plenty of threads here that go on forever in circles for entire pages, so if you can do it so should I be allowed to? No? /pat justification

    The author calls the government’s response a knee jerk reaction, but I disagree, and am angered to find tax dollars paying to put youtubers in uniform and send overseas to win hearts and minds.

    We have a good opportunity here to see if (and show the rest of the world) that we can be adults about this

    I say peeing on corpses isn’t “adult” in any way

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  41. richtaylor365 *

    and am angered to find tax dollars paying to put youtubers in uniform and send overseas to win hearts and minds.

    You don’t know who put that video on youtube , or who even filmed it, do you? I heard it was a member of the German/NATO contingent, making a training film on keeping your prostate healthy :)

    The author calls the government’s response a knee jerk reaction, but I disagree

    That’s cool, but I’d prefer the US military make that call and met out punishment that they see fit, not you.

    So getting back to the topic, are the soldier’s actions a result of “American culture” or “American policy” or not that terrible any which old way.

    The third choice.

    I’m going to keep getting back to the pissing incident which I feel was totally, completely, sub-asinine, hillbilly redneck stupid and theres no excuse for it i can see thus far

    And where, anywhere, did you read or hear an excuse made for this?

    I say peeing on corpses isn’t “adult” in any way

    And bowing to either public sentiment, German occupiers , or any authority not sufficiently vetted in combat situations would certainly not be “adult” in any way.

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  42. JimK

    This is one of the threads that makes me want to close this blog and walk away forever. It’s just assholes talking past each other and trying to be either edgy, funny or both, and having the skill to do neither.

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  43. hohokiss

    And where, anywhere, did you read or hear an excuse made for this?

    The Web is crammed full with excuses “shoulda peed and pooped on them”. And the people who post thusly live among us in the real world.

    I say peeing on corpses isn’t “adult” in any way

    And bowing to either public sentiment, German occupiers , or any authority not sufficiently vetted in combat situations would certainly not be “adult” in any way.

    When I lived overseas I was educated about the US regularly, without asking, and when I (sometimes) revealed that I’d lived in the US myself, and didn’t subscribe to their points of view, I was told that I just hadn’t lived there “sufficiently” enough, to really, truly understand. Same happens in the US, more and more. My countrymen vulgarlyl post videos of themselves beating hobos, they jokingly film themselves peeing on corpses. WTF, hm?

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  44. JimK

    Oh hell as long as I’m here, on the topic of the original post…

    1. Pissing on corpses is, in the grand scheme of war, pretty low on the scale of horrors. They’re fucking dead already.

    2. Pissing on corpses is a terribly stupid idea, if for no other reason than how it can, will and is being portrayed around the world. It demonstrates a lack of respect and a level of barbarism that can easily be blown so far out of proportion as to create more trouble than the fleeting satisfaction could ever bring. It will be seized upon as evidence that we deserve attack and as demonstrative of the attitudes of all Americans, and by extension our closest allies. Put simply: it puts people at risk for no good reason. It’s a stupid move on the part of these soldiers, period and point blank.

    3. The United States military doesn’t condone the behavior and those involved will be disciplined.

    4. I find it telling that we are told how we can’t judge all Muslims by the actions of terrorists and suicide bombers, but the same people are perfectly comfortable judging the entirety of the US military and all Americans by the actions of a few individual soldiers who, lets face it, are probably under stresses that you and I can only imagine at this point. Which by no means excuses their behavior. It can simply add to an explanation.

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  45. hohokiss

    Seriously, if I iive past another 10 years, after my kids have outgrown us and left the home, I’m going to disappear forever. The contents of this video are yet another reason to secede from the action for good.

    4. I find it telling that we are told how we can’t judge all Muslims by the actions of terrorists and suicide bombers, but the same people are perfectly comfortable judging the entirety of the US military and all Americans by the actions of a few individual soldiers

    I posit that, had these soldiers been born in Afghanistan, they’d have joined the Taliban, just as the fighters sitting in Afghan caves would be sitting at their computers, cussing on youtube, if born good ole Southern boys. They’re all the exact same people to me. Everyones just the same.

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  46. HARLEY

    This is one of the threads that makes me want to close this blog and walk away forever. It’s just assholes talking past each other and trying to be either edgy, funny or both, and having the skill to do neither.

    I dont blame ya.

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  47. CM

    I haven’t offered an opinion here as I thought I’d let you all discuss it without me getting in the way as usual. But just for the record, JimK has pretty much summed up my thoughts pretty well.

    Really? So the comments I’ve read and heard from our “friends” about us being fat, lazy, stupid and the like was really a description of our policy? Hmmm.

    Obviously I can’t talk on behalf of any individuals who have made comments to you like that. But that goes without saying (or should, anyway).

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  48. hist_ed

    Jesus Fucking Christ who is the Hohokiss asswhipe? I don’t check in for a week or so and he is doing some sort of performance art/idiot rant. From what I have read from this thread and the other pissing one, he makes the late lamented Murgey look like a fucking genius.

    Just one example:

    I have no evidence that these bodies were enemy combatants, or lawfully killed by Marines in self defence.

    HoHokiss, I have no evidence that when you wrote that, you weren’t simultaneously sodomizing a 12 year old Botswanan boy with a mummified Yak penis lubed in goat milk butter. I do however have some indication that you are either trying (and failing) at some sort of weird parody of internet rants or are simply an idiotic asshole that is overly impressed with himself. Or you are maladjusted 12 year old.

    To the substance: four guys pissing on corpses doesn’t represent the epitome of American culture. Soldiers from every corner of the world have been defiling the corpses of their enemies for all of human history. In many cases they were rewarded for doing so. This is a tempest in a teapot. Yes the military should deal with them. Everyone else should note this in passing and then shut the fuck up.

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  49. CM

    He’s been posting since before I started (circa 2003) at MW forums under assorted names and here under the name loserlame last year. We personally sparred off more than any other posters over many years.

    I keep hearing about this murgey guy, sometime i might have to dig into the archives and read some of his stuff.

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  50. hohokiss

    I have no evidence that when you wrote that, you weren’t simultaneously sodomizing a 12 year old Botswanan boy with a mummified Yak penis lubed in goat milk butter. ..some sort of weird parody of internet rants.. an idiotic asshole that is overly impressed with himself a maladjusted 12 year old. To the substance: four guys pissing on corpses doesn’t represent the epitome of American culture

    But, see, this vulgar personal attack reads just like the ones Americans leave on, say, youtube by the countless thousands every day, if and when their fav heavy metal video is mildly criticized. Or just for the shitting fucking hell of it, hahah. No harm done there, either. Screw the rules, Ozzie is God.

    What you lazily ignore is that others, the pissees, see the pissing incident as I described it, not you or Ozzie, and your proclaiming it a “minor incident” doesn’t make it one, no matter how much you profanely declare it so on the Web, this only confirms yer stereotype more = you lapse into off-topic cussing and insults, ordering people around because you’re a typical American. “Jesus Fucking Christ” Yeah, fuck him, too. After Mohammed, eh. Still don’t get it?

    This “minor incident” could be the final inspiration for some hick made in Afghanistan to join the Taliban and avenge the desecrated. Nice. From past experiences with them everywhere, I normally don’t give a shit about hicks of any flag or color, but I found this “minor incident” bothered me enough to sign up here again to call this a stupid act by stupid, ignorant idiots, endorsed by a pack of assholes. And typical ones at that.

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  51. hohokiss

    Rick Perry today criticized the Obama administration for its “over the top” rhetoric in response to a video that purports to show four U.S. Marines urinating on the corpses of Taliban fighters.
    Perry, speaking on CNN’s State of the Union program, said the reactions from Defense Secretary Leon Panetta and Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton to the video is indicative of what he says is a “disdain” for the military by Obama officials.

    “These kids made a mistake, no doubt about it,” Perry said, adding that when you’re 18 or 19 years old you do “dumb” things. “…To call it a criminal act is over the top.”

    So these are currently, officially “kids” the US is sending off to war? I’ll remember to complain about that when Perry’s president.

    Elsewhere someone claims that:

    Video of Marines Urinating on Taliban Will Have Massive Diplomatic Implications For U.S.
    Controversy is again surrounding the U.S. military with the most recent viral video of Marines urinating on dead Taliban, an action which is defined as a war crime by the Geneva conventions. While Taliban officials said that the video controversy will not affect the talks, it is an incident which will inevitably remain in the forefront of their minds any time the mention of the U.S. presence in Afghanistan arises.

    This is the embodiment of the strong assaulting the weak. It’s nothing new for the Americans, it only adds to what they have done in Abu Ghraib prison. This a breach of the sacredness of Islam and Muslims,” said Othman al-Busaifi, 45, in Tripoli.

    They cut off ears and fingers and keep them as medals, and urinate on bodies, then they talk about civilization,” wrote user Abu Abdullah al-Janubi on one forum.

    “It may start with just video footage, but it will end with demonstrations around the country and maybe the world,”
    said 44-year-old Qaisullah, who has a shop near the Kabul’s Shah-e-dushamshera mosque.

    Ah, grow some humor, you goddam ragheads, its a minor inicident done by harmless kids. Me, as a sly adult, I woulda waved my dick around and said, ‘Inchallah! Every inch – ALLAH!! Hahahaha”

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  52. Section8

    I think it was SO who had one of the best lines ever on this blog which was basically don’t argue with a retard, because everyone else watching won’t be able to tell who the idiot is. I’ve learned my lesson.

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  53. richtaylor365 *

    Gee, when I accused you of sounding like loserlame I had no idea you are in fact him. I thought loserlame was banned. I did not know he/you could come back with a nom de plume and continue right where you left off. Do you have to like go your local library and use their ip address to get in?

    The last time Loser mucked up one of my posts, he got admonished for the same housekeeping broaches of decorum, you are doing it again.

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  54. hohokiss

    On topic, all the Taliban have to do is show the video around and say, again: “This is why we are here. This is American culture, this is American ‘democracy’.” Beings how much of Afghanistan lacks electricity or Internet, this story will likely get bigger as it gets retold.

    Poor bastards, our youtubing kids get to see the truth and give it a good laugh.

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  55. Poosh

    It’s not like these Marines pissed on enemy soldiers, or an enemy who obeyed the Geneva convention.

    You’re talking about scum who are happy to “youtube” videos of themselves beheading people and cheering whilst it’s happening.

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  56. hohokiss

    There are a few more minor items. Frankfurt is in the American occupied part of Germany. so it should know the Americans best, say experts. Its local paper, the Frankfurt Rundschau’s headline reads, “The Face of War”

    http://www.fr-tablet.de/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/titel1.jpg
    http://www.fr-online.de/politik/us-soldaten-urinieren-auf-tote-taliban-leichenschaendung-empoert-die-afghanen,1472596,11439100.html

    The Pentagon is shocked, but not the Taliban. Hillary Clinton admonishes corpse desecration

    Did she really officially declare it a “corpse desecration”? Thats what everyone in Germany is calling it.

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  57. hist_ed

    What you lazily ignore is that others, the pissees, see the pissing incident as I described it

    How do you know what the dead guys were thinking?

    I remember loserlame now. Hmmmmm. Guess best not engage too much (alas too late for not at all).

    I keep hearing about this murgey guy, sometime i might have to dig into the archives and read some of his stuff.

    Can’t remember what his true handle was, something like Murgeo. His posts were awesome reading. His opinions were mostly on your side of the political fence (not comparing you to a pooh flinging chimp at all-smart people can and do disagree), just imagine them being written by a partially lobotomized chimp. With Fetal alchohol syndrome.

    My favorite Murgey moments was when someone pointed out another political blog that he was posting on and all those people had the same complaints we did.

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  58. hohokiss

    It’s not like these Marines pissed on enemy soldiers, or an enemy who obeyed the Geneva convention.
    You’re talking about scum who are happy to “youtube” videos of themselves beheading people and cheering whilst it’s happening.

    I know this, too, but it doesn’t matter one bit the rest of the world. It sees the video and says “typical” while Americans cheer it by the thousands “woohoo piss on them dead bastard fuckers” which is typical, too Thats the status quo.
    I’m the last person to suck up to any goddam, arrogant, humorless, pedantic Kraut bastards, but I have to agree that this emering film-life-through-the-phone-camera-for-laughs-youtube-non-culture is sick, people. Its another stupid habit Yanks can’t seem to keep in moderation.
    I remember New Yorkers in the 80s mocking Japanese tourists’ forever stuck behind their gigantic cameras and VCRs, filming away, blocking the views, and seeing the sites second-hand.

    Rockers Van Halen recently held a private “epic historic etc reunion” in NYC, and sure enough the VIPs were all there, hysterically waving their phones at the band, making wobbly films to post on youtube. They all suck, but fans felt obliged to call the shit “awesome”. That shit is declared “awesome” , while the pissery is “no big deal”. In your dreams.

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  59. hohokiss

    How do you know what the dead guys were thinking?

    Cmon, when I said “pissees”, I meant the Taliban and everyone else the US has pissed on similarlty in the past, real or percieved. doesn’t matter one bit.

    Allow me to post that partial chart of “anti-Americanism” here, least friendly first:

    Country positive negative view

    Turkey 13% 70%
    Pakistan 9% 52%
    Russia 25% 50%
    Mexico 13% 49%
    Germany 39% 47%
    China 29% 44%
    France 45% 39%
    Indonesia 36% 39%
    Azerbaijan 44% 38%
    Sh Korea 57% 38%
    Australia 37% 38%
    Canada 44% 38%
    UK 48% 35%
    Brazil 53% 35%
    Thailand 49% 35%
    Spain 40% 33%
    Nigeria 64% 32%
    Egypt 45% 29%
    India 39% 28%
    Chile 55% 26%
    CAmerica 64% 24%
    Italy 56% 22%
    US 60% 22%
    Portugal 57% 20%
    Japan 34% 18%
    Ghana 72% 13%
    Kenya 85% 10%
    Philip 82% 8%

    Looks like the US has a persistant image problem, and posting a corpse desecration video on youtube for minor laughs doesn’t help in any way.

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  60. CM

    IMHO the main problem is that a major part of the West’s battle against Islam extremism is PR. It IS about hearts and minds. It’s about convincing that huge group of moderates that the West is the Best. That is the key. So this incident is a gift to the Islamic extremists who do anything and everything to paint the West as the wrong side to be on. Mostly they have to make it up and pretend it’s real. But then something like this comes along and all-of-a-sudden who can tell the difference between what is real and what is made up? All decent propaganda involves some degree of truth. And this video is their latest helping of ‘truth’ served up on a platter.

    Have you guys seen Generation Kill, or read Evan Wright’s book? You can just imagine the anger and disappointment that soldiers in the field (like the guys in the series/book) would feel after seeing that video. (Yes I realise GK is Iraq)

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  61. hohokiss

    But this boondoggle has been foisted into the realm of public sentiment, so now those lacking in the requisite training will get their say and will get to influence the outcome, not good. What would have been a military affair now gets thrown in to the public square. We will now have mob rule, too bad for us.

    So, In a nutshell, I personally don’t agree that this video is “kid stuff borne from the fog of war”, it was made for youtube by some guys who apparently grew up with it. Were the dead “unlawful combatants”, civilians, what?
    Its indeed too bad the video got out, because its going to live forever right next to Abu Ghraib, Gitmo, Iraq, etc. as another “typical American” war souvenir by those who collect them, and there are many. The reasons why are manifold – Agent Orange, McDonalds, it all adds up. Unfortunately 9/11 or the rape and murder of peasants by peasants in far-off lands doesn’t negate any of these things in the eyes of the critical thinkers.
    So why not get smart and grow up, doff the macho cussing and teach your kids some manners. Win their hearts and minds without youtube. Leave the peasants alone.

    In June 2011 a ceremony was held at Da Nang airport to mark the start of US-funded decontamination of dioxin hotspots in Vietnam. $32m has so far been allocated by the US congress to fund the program

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  62. Section8

    It’s about convincing that huge group of moderates that the West is the Best. That is the key. So this incident is a gift to the Islamic extremists who do anything and everything to paint the West as the wrong side to be on.

    This post isn’t directed toward you CM, I didn’t see you make an overblown issue out of this at all. It’s been quite reasoned so far, but here are my thoughts on it.

    If you go to a town in Afghanistan, show a group of ordinary or moderate people a picture and you say. “Hey, that guy is part of the Taliban is he bad?” If they say, “No, the Taliban is fine.”, then there is no point winning the hearts and minds. If they say, “Yes, he’s part of a bad group that chopped the head of my friend, and terrorized my town.”, then I’d say well these guys have no love for the Taliban. Now, if you showed a picture of the same guy getting peed on and said, “This is the guy that was the part of the group that chopped your friend’s head off. The guys peeing on him will be punished, but we don’t consider it a hanging offence considering what has all gone down”, and their reaction is oh my that’s the worst thing ever, and I long for the days when the guy was alive so he could chop my friend’s head off rather than laying dead and getting peed on, then we are dealing with a lost cause anyhow.

    We need to go and get out, and our last words the that nut Karzai should be do what you want, but if your land is ever used for people that target us, and the do target us, your country will be gone using anything we have in our arsenal to do the job. We can pass that info off to extremists and “moderates” alike. If it pisses off the world I say great, they can offer to have their country attacked for a more muted response.

    In the end it’s up to the people in those regions to decide what they want. Fact is we can’t be flawless, and if any, and I mean any slip up that can be dug up is a huge obstacle to overcome, we’re wasting our time. I’d defy anyone here or elsewhere to site examples of any country at any time putting more effort into making sure the wrong buildings weren’t bombed, and the sensitivities of the people (including the ones trying to kill us) weren’t given an absolutely ridiculous amount of consideration. Granted, slip ups are still going to occur, but only one side has zero tolerance allowed, and that includes not only from a Islamic standpoint, but from our supposed allies as well. We’ll see how well they handle their next wars, and there will be next wars. I’d prefer to sit back and wait for slip ups, then I’ll criticize.

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  63. richtaylor365 *

    This thread is winding down (thankfully) so I’ll close with this. What burns my biscuits is the total lack or perspective or point of reference wrt those getting overly indignant. For those that wish us harm, it’s not going to make a bit of difference, I doubt the extremists are going to change their attitude from really wanting to kill us to really really wanting to kill us. And the argument that this will be used as a recruiting tool, I think that is nonsense as well. I can’t see a typical Afghani deciding on this one turn to upckuck his entire life, throw everything he has away and turn suicide bomber.

    I view this as analogous to video surfacing of some cop punching an arrested rapist or murderer while taking him into custody, regrettable in that he went outside of policy and deserving of some punishment ( and reinforcing to some that all cops are out of control even though 99.9% of all arrests are handled properly), still, it’s one step back.

    I think most here get the proper tone and what the proper response should be. Proportionality and making the punishment fit the improper action (intentionally not using the word “crime”).

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  64. CM

    If you go to a town in Afghanistan, show a group of ordinary or moderate people a picture and you say. “Hey, that guy is part of the Taliban is he bad?” If they say, “No, the Taliban is fine.”, then there is no point winning the hearts and minds. If they say, “Yes, he’s part of a bad group that chopped the head of my friend, and terrorized my town.”, then I’d say well these guys have no love for the Taliban. Now, if you showed a picture of the same guy getting peed on and said, “This is the guy that was the part of the group that chopped your friend’s head off. The guys peeing on him will be punished, but we don’t consider it a hanging offence considering what has all gone down”, and their reaction is oh my that’s the worst thing ever, and I long for the days when the guy was alive so he could chop my friend’s head off rather than laying dead and getting peed on, then we are dealing with a lost cause anyhow.

    I think that’s just too simplistic.
    For one thing, you’re inferring that these specific Taleban individuals cut off heads (some have, so all do). Whereas I’m sure none of us would think taking revenge against a random US soldier for the misdeeds of another (some have, so they all do) would make any sense.
    But more than that, you’re only providing extreme positions/responses.

    Afganistan is pretty fucked and I’m not sure what to do. I have a close family member working there for the last 5 years and she’s rather depressed about how things have gone. She says things have gone backwards. The reconstruction teams have given up building infrastructure because the Taleban just destroy it right away. They’ve been concentrating on incredibly basic things like teaching people to dispose of shit properly, and that washing your hands after going to the toilet can cut down on sickness.

    but if your land is ever used for people that target us, and the do target us, your country will be gone using anything we have in our arsenal to do the job.

    I’m not sure how that would do anything but make things worse in the long term. Afghanistan is just a venue really.

    This thread is winding down (thankfully) so I’ll close with this. What burns my biscuits is the total lack or perspective or point of reference wrt those getting overly indignant. For those that wish us harm, it’s not going to make a bit of difference, I doubt the extremists are going to change their attitude from really wanting to kill us to really really wanting to kill us. And the argument that this will be used as a recruiting tool, I think that is nonsense as well. I can’t see a typical Afghani deciding on this one turn to upckuck his entire life, throw everything he has away and turn suicide bomber.

    I agree – I don’t think someone turns to a cause involving violent extremism on the back of one incident. I think the transition occurs gradually, via being fed propaganda over a period of time. And possibly they don’t have much to ‘throw away’. This incident is just another incredibly useful propaganda tool, because it can legitimise the crap they make up (as well as “and imagine how often this occurs and isn’t captured on camera” etc etc). Which is why my reaction (and I imagine the reaction of most in the armed services) was one of disappointment and frustration. This kind of thing just makes the whole thing even more difficult. As if it’s not difficult enough. So I can understand why reactions would be strong. The reaction is more than just about the specifics of the incident. It’s not anger because “look at those typical Americans” etc etc, the reaction is (I think) more about the frustration of what this sort of incident does to the whole fight.

    I don’t think comparisons to Taleban tactics/incidents is helpful. Since when did we have to resort to rationalising our behaviour by comparing it to cutting off heads? I think that’s an incredibly weak and dangerous argument. Well, it’s a non-argument really. So in that respect I agree with Hohokiss.

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  65. hohokiss

    And the argument that this will be used as a recruiting tool, I think that is nonsense as well.

    Really. I have an (I feel) interesting story to tell about this. A few years back I (ID’d as a “Dutch”) once commented on a youtube video mildly critically, all w/o any insults or slurs, to which a slew of American fans of it immediately “responded” with nothing but insults and slurs, telling me to “STFU fag nigger (sic) Seig Heil” I said I meant no harm to anyone, but that youtube was the boss and offered freedom of speech, inviting us to discuss videos in a normal voice, repeating that the video basically sucked and why.
    Again, fans cussed me out. So, on a whim, I told them I would repeat my critique as often as it took them to comprehend that I could.
    A full four years later, said fans of the video still cuss me exactly like the scores of other obviously generic American asses to be found under virtually any other video on youtube (I’ve tested and confirmed this theory).
    One fellow decided I was someone living in the northern US (this person really exists), made and uploaded vulgar videos depicting me being defecated on by his idol, hacked my account, published that person’s full name and address across youtube, wrote that person’s employer complaining about my youtube comments, calling him a psychotic pedophile into bestiality, laughing about that person’s pending divorce, etc “You getting the dog? You gonna fuck it hahah”
    Just last week my personal hata was in a bad mood, again, and again publicly promised to visit me soon, and fix my wagon for good.
    This being America should I call the cops, or just chalk it up to yer typical harmless, if vulgar, obscene tabloid entertainment created by some ordinary ole bored kids? I’ve already told the “bad guy” about his name being published on youtube, I personally wouldn’t be at all surprised to see his name in the papers one day…
    So, of course, this will have been all my fault if the guy gets shot, because I wouldn’t let effing “freedom of speech” alone, and the shooter will have had no other choice than to defend his idol’s honor violently, just like he’s forced to ignore youtube’s Terms to defend his idols video.

    The masses tolerate this. Hardly anybody at youtube seems to really mind or care about its Terms at this point in the story, its the perfect place to post a video of kids beating hobos, or kids pissing on corpses, issuing threats against “fag niggers”. Now thats “freedom of speech” anno 2012.
    So do I think a video depicting US soldiers allegedly pissing on Islam could move some orphaned Afghan peasant to join the Taliban? Yes I do.

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  66. Section8

    For one thing, you’re inferring that these specific Taleban individuals cut off heads (some have, so all do). Whereas I’m sure none of us would think taking revenge against a random US soldier for the misdeeds of another (some have, so they all do) would make any sense.
    But more than that, you’re only providing extreme positions/responses.

    Well, I had said in my example they would be part of a that group. I had also mentioned, that if the people as a whole don’t have a problem with the Taliban, then there is nothing to win over. We should be done there. Either the group of the Taliban are considered a negative, positive, or a neutral over there. If their beef with the Taliban is due to a few individuals, and on the whole they are ok with them, then again, there is nothing to win over.

    I’m not sure how that would do anything but make things worse in the long term. Afghanistan is just a venue really.

    It is just a venue, it would up to them to choose if they want to keep it that way as a training ground, and would be forewarned about it, and we can leave and they can go on with whatever regime the people see fit.

    My understand was the Taliban and what they stand for really aren’t of benefit to your average person, but if your argument above is that it’s just a few bad seeds, just like we have a few bad seeds, then there is again nothing to win over. bin Laden is gone, we’ve made a point that we will get you eventually, and we can leave that note for Karzai and the rest so they can use that as part of their future decision makinig, and wrap it up.

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  67. Section8

    I don’t think comparisons to Taleban tactics/incidents is helpful. Since when did we have to resort to rationalising our behaviour by comparing it to cutting off heads? I think that’s an incredibly weak and dangerous argument. Well, it’s a non-argument really. So in that respect I agree with Hohokiss.

    Well, ok then. Didn’t you just say

    IMHO the main problem is that a major part of the West’s battle against Islam extremism is PR. It IS about hearts and minds. It’s about convincing that huge group of moderates that the West is the Best. That is the key

    So, if this incident proves we are no better, it’s equal in its contempt, then there is nothing to argue, battle for, or fight about. Let’s just wrap up the circle jerk, not only in this argument, but hopefully the politicians in my country can realize that everyone outside of the US is going to do their best to make this nation building scheme a fruitless effort, especially at seizing every opportunity to find a gotcha moment and exploiting it to the max while making no effort to point out any ill doing from the Taliban. So tell me since everything they do should be glossed over, then what’s the point of winning hearts and minds of anything? Actually, don’t tell me, I have a feeling I know the response, and it will just be round and round again. I’m done on this one.

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  68. hohokiss

    bin Laden is gone, we’ve made a point that we will get you eventually, and we can leave that note for Karzai and the rest so they can use that as part of their future decision

    … the concept of martyrdom in Islam is linked with the entire religion of Islam. This whole process can be somehow understood if the term ‘Islam’ is appreciated. This is because being a derivate of the Arabic root salama, which means ‘surrender’ and ‘peace’, Islam is a wholesome and peaceful submission to the will of Allah.

    This means being prepared to die (martyrdom) in the course of this submission.

    Therefore if someone truly believes in Islam, getting martyred in the battle for Islam is the way to go and is no deterrent.

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  69. Section8

    Therefore if someone truly believes in Islam, getting martyred in the battle for Islam is the way to go and is no deterrent.

    Well then hand yourself over the extremists. Tell them you’re an American guilty as charged, who has taken advantage of the wealth and opportunity it provides, so much so that your main worries in life are sitting in your cozy house critiquing Ozzy, and its only a matter of time until they get you, and be done with it.

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  70. mrblume

    I’d defy anyone here or elsewhere to site examples of any country at any time putting more effort into making sure the wrong buildings weren’t bombed

    No thanks to you:

    our last words the that nut Karzai should be do what you want, but if your land is ever used for people that target us, and the do target us, your country will be gone using anything we have in our arsenal to do the job.

    Of course, I know those are just masturbatory fantasies. It would be stupid to go too far beyond what can be justified on the world stage. In a way, this shows how largely useless excess military might is.

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  71. hohokiss

    “Wealth and opportunity” are relative terms. And standing up for the US abroad and on the Web has cost me an awful lot of time, money and effort, which, in retrospect, I wouldn’t offer again. All I got was an Ozzy T-shirt, cuz he rules and everyone else is just fags hahahahah so piss on them. And film it haahha. So I guess Islam wins?
    Aye, a bigger threat to me than Islam appear to be radical youtubers in the US wanting me dead for not adoring their idols properly, so I’m addressing that issue first. I’ll fight em just like I’ll fight Islam or anything or anyone else telling me what to do under threat of force or death.

    I contend that people are all the exact same everywhere, they just have different hangups.

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  72. Section8

    Of course, I know those are just masturbatory fantasies.

    What stay out of people’s business, unless attacked and then we do what is necessary to protect ourselves? Please do tell me what is so strange about that, and what’s your solution?

    “No thanks to you:”

    Me personally? No, I don’t run the country just FYI. Again though, that was obvious. Can you really answer the question? Or are you just going to be a dick?

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  73. CM

    Well, I had said in my example they would be part of a that group. I had also mentioned, that if the people as a whole don’t have a problem with the Taliban, then there is nothing to win over. We should be done there. Either the group of the Taliban are considered a negative, positive, or a neutral over there. If their beef with the Taliban is due to a few individuals, and on the whole they are ok with them, then again, there is nothing to win over.

    Rather than “not having a problem with them” I would assume it’s much more a case of not having a choice but to put up with them. That’s the impression I get from my cousin (and I realise that I’m going on anecdotal evidence there). They’re just so invasive and permanent. If you can’t beat em, and you don’t want to join em, you pretty much just get/stay out of their way. And part of that would probably not be responding to your question with “The Taleban is evil”.
    Anyway, it’s more about denying the Taleban (and other idiot extremist groups) this sort of propaganda than it is being able to go in and explain ourselves (being the West, because we are all in this together to a large degree). Of course we think we can explain the differences. But we’re not there chirping in their ear on a permanent basis.

    It is just a venue, it would up to them to choose if they want to keep it that way as a training ground, and would be forewarned about it, and we can leave and they can go on with whatever regime the people see fit

    “The people” are at the mercy of the Taleban to a large extent. And even in their ‘elections’ they usually (according to my cousin) have the choice between Corrupt Candidate A and Corrupt Candidate B. They have no power whatsoever to stop to US being attacked. But you’re suggesting the “country will be gone” if the US is attacked again? What I’m saying is that won’t make any difference at all. Afghan peasants aren’t the problem.

    My understand was the Taliban and what they stand for really aren’t of benefit to your average person, but if your argument above is that it’s just a few bad seeds, just like we have a few bad seeds, then there is again nothing to win over.

    No I think the Taleban still effectively rule Afghanistan, and they will do for the forseeable future. We’ve probably all reached a point where we realise that now, which is why they’re part of negotiations to try and stabilise a working govt. I don’t think this is a Taleban issue, it’s a larger one. I’m not so concerned about Taleban recruitment as I am about recruitment across the extremist board.

    One of the key differences between “them” (violent ideological extremists) and ” us” is that they de-personalise and attack with a group mentality (e.g. all Westerners are pigs and need to be put down) whereas we (as much as possible) personalise and put much more stock into individual opinions and actions. We don’t consider individuals in the same way as we consider the group. We judge people on their merits. We hold individuals accountable. Pissing on corpses, and rationalising it on the basis that “they’re Taleban so it doesn’t matter” is what they would do. They’ll be doing everything possible to play down any moral high ground held by the West. This latest video is going to be a great new addition to their toolbox. It’s going to make their narrative more believable.

    Gitmo is a failure because, despite us being told that it would hold key prisoners in TWOT, it’s held a whole lot of nobodies. It’s a collection of nobodies being held because of the actions of the group. So it’s more akin to what they would do (hold individuals, no matter what they actually do/did, accountable for the actions of a group) than what we should be doing.

    bin Laden is gone, we’ve made a point that we will get you eventually, and we can leave that note for Karzai and the rest so they can use that as part of their future decision makinig, and wrap it up.

    Well yeah I don’t see any great reason for the US to stay. It’s pretty fucked, as it has been for some time and will be for some time.

    So, if this incident proves we are no better, it’s equal in its contempt, then there is nothing to argue, battle for, or fight about.

    I’m not sure you’re getting it. This incident doesn’t “prove” anything. It’s just really unfortunate from the PR perspective, but we can’t just give up trying to convince moderates that the West is the better option. That would be the worst thing to do.
    I don’t think pulling out of Afghanistan harms that strategy at this point.

    Let’s just wrap up the circle jerk, not only in this argument, but hopefully the politicians in my country can realize that everyone outside of the US is going to do their best to make this nation building scheme a fruitless effort, especially at seizing every opportunity to find a gotcha moment and exploiting it to the max while making no effort to point out any ill doing from the Taliban.

    I wouldn’t agree with your premise that everyone outside the US is doing their best to make it a fruitless exercise. Again, I think the frustration is that examples such as this are painful steps backwards in the PR war. And perhaps, like me, they see the PR war as being even more important than any military involvement.

    Who has pointed out that the Taleban don’t do any ill? I don’t really understand this argument.
    The Taleban have done unspeakably bad things. Who is denying that?
    I don’t understand how reactions can be legitimately compared. Most people are always going to react stronger when their side does something wrong. You can’t infer that people don’t think beheadings are as bad (as they are) simply on the basis that the same people express horror/frustration/disappointment/anger at US soldiers desecrating human bodies. It doesn’t make sense to me to infer that people are required to publicly express the correct amount of outrage at all times, otherwise you can call them hypocrites.

    So tell me since everything they do should be glossed over, then what’s the point of winning hearts and minds of anything? Actually, don’t tell me, I have a feeling I know the response, and it will just be round and round again. I’m done on this one.

    If you’re expecting me to say “who suggested that beheadings should be glossed over?” then you’d be correct.
    I don’t judge the behaviour of my kids on the behaviour of the kids next door. I compare it the standards of behaviour I’d expect (factoring in their ages and in the knowledge that kids are learning all the time about behaviour). Telling my kids off for something doesn’t inherently mean that I “gloss over” the behaviour of the kids next door.

    Anyway, winning hearts and minds is what this is all about. It’s a marketing exercise for both sides. That’s why McCain said the video “makes me so sad”.

    Hohokiss has brought up the issue of who the bodies actually are. We’ve all been told they are Taleban. Is this a fact? People seem to be taking it as a fact. On what basis? Because the person who posted it on YouTube said so?

    It is not clear if the corpses in the video belong to civilians or insurgents engaged in combat, although the film does appear to have been shot in Afghanistan.

    The three corpses are all male and are wearing civilian clothes. The youngest lies on his front with an overturned wheelbarrow dumped by his side.

    (I threw up in my mouth a little linking to the Daily Mail)

    What happens to the “they started it!” argument if it turns out their were just Afghanis?

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  74. Section8

    What happens to the “they started it!” argument if it turns out their were just Afghanis?

    If they shot and killed people who weren’t involved with anything, then it should be murder charges, pissing or not. Maybe we should wait until that proves true instead of eagerly rushing to the next level ok hohokiss? I mean CM one and the same.

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  75. CM

    What stay out of people’s business, unless attacked and then we do what is necessary to protect ourselves? Please do tell me what is so strange about that, and what’s your solution?

    He’s pointing out that on one hand you seem to infer that being careful and restrained is a good thing, but on the other you seem to think that if that doesn’t work, then just blow the whole thing up. Which suggests that perhaps you didn’t ever actually believe in the first tactic. Or that the first tactic should always include the threat of the second if it doesn’t work.

    Section8 it might pay to further explain what you meant by:

    your country will be gone using anything we have in our arsenal to do the job

    If you mean obliterate the entire country, what purpose would that serve? I can think of many negatives, but not really any positives.

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  76. hohokiss

    Of course, I know those are just masturbatory fantasies. It would be stupid to go too far beyond what can be justified on the world stage. In a way, this shows how largely useless excess military might is.

    Aye, the world doesn’t give a shit about Afghans, its a fairly worthless country, but turning it into glass as a warning to anyone wanna mess with the big dogs won’t work, either.
    Really the only way to kinda justify this would be for Iran to get the bomb, do something stupid with it, and for the US/Israel to nuke em both, in “self-defense”. But then neighboring Pakistan has plenty Muslims, doesn’t like the US, and it has nukes, too. Would the oil-pumping Saudis tolerate this? Israel still won’t be safe. Etc. And who is supposed to pay for all this, literally?

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  77. CM

    If they shot and killed people who weren’t involved with anything, then it should be murder charges, pissing or not. Maybe we should wait until that proves true instead of eagerly rushing to the next level ok hohokiss? I mean CM one and the same.

    We really know little more than what is shown in the video. The military know who the four soliders are. But we still don’t know who the dead are. And yet look at all the comments here (prior to mine or hoho’s) comparing this action to beheadings, and providing all sorts of of rationalisations and justifications based on assumptions? And yet WE’RE the ones rushing to the next level by daring to suggest that we don’t even know for sure who the dead are? Huh?!

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  78. Section8

    Oh by the way Rich, as far as CM and Kimpost following up regarding hoho’s claim early on, you can kind of see where that’s headed.

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  79. CM

    Aye, the world doesn’t give a shit about Afghans, its a fairly worthless country, but turning it into glass as a warning to anyone wanna mess with the big dogs won’t work, either.
    Really the only way to kinda justify this would be for Iran to get the bomb, do something stupid with it, and for the US/Israel to nuke em both, in “self-defense”. But then neighboring Pakistan has plenty Muslims, doesn’t like the US, and it has nukes, too. Would the oil-pumping Saudis tolerate this? Israel still won’t be safe. Etc. And who is supposed to pay for all this, literally?

    In effect you’d have to nuke half the world, and try to convince the remaining half (Europe, Australia, NZ, etc) that it was the right thing to do.

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  80. Section8

    Section8 it might pay to further explain what you meant by:

    Short of nukes, to clarify, I don’t those should be used. Anyhow, do feel compelled to state that before it spins out of control just like a pissing incident is now being spun to murder based on nothing really, but anyhow glad to see it finally came out CM, because we do know that no matter what, your exploitation of any incident in the name of bashing the US is a real driver for you.You’re a real fucking great guy. I made my mistake of trying to be nice with you, won’t happen again.

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  81. CM

    Oh by the way Rich, as far as CM and Kimpost following up regarding hoho’s claim early on, you can kind of see where that’s headed.

    Indeed (although the opposite of what I think you’re suggesting). The US is leading the fight against ideological extremism and the vast majority of people in the West know that, and that we’re all in this together. Which is exactly why many people are disappointed/frustrated/angry when they see stuff like this. Not because “Americans are asses” but because it assists to undermine everything we’re all trying to do. Which I imagine is the attitude of the vast majority of those in the military as well (and which is why I mentioned Generation Kill, as I think that deals with this issue really well).

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  82. CM

    Short of nukes, to clarify, I don’t those should be used. Anyhow, do feel compelled to state that before it spins out of control just like a pissing incident is now being spun to murder based on nothing really, but anyhow glad to see it finally came out CM, because we do know that no matter what, your exploitation of any incident in the name of bashing the US is a real driver for you.You’re a real fucking great guy. I made my mistake of trying to be nice with you, won’t happen again.

    Wow. That’s quite incredible what you’ve done there.
    I’d seek help.

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  83. hohokiss

    In the mid-1980s, the Afghan resistance movement, assisted by the US, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, the UK, China and others, contributed to Moscow’s high military costs and strained international relations. The US viewed the conflict in Afghanistan as an integral Cold War struggle, and the CIA provided assistance to anti-Soviet forces through the Pakistani intelligence services, in a program called Operation Cyclone.]
    A similar movement occurred in other Muslim countries, bringing contingents of so-called Afghan Arabs, foreign fighters who wished to wage jihad against the atheist communists. Notable among them was a young Saudi named Osama bin Laden, whose Arab group eventually evolved into al-Qaeda

    How quickly we forget. Supporting the Afghan mujahideen against the evil Russkis eventually backfired, as Osama had other plans for the country.

    The Islamists who fought also believed that they were responsible for the fall of the Soviet Union. Osama bin Laden, for example, was asserting the credit for “the dissolution of the Soviet Union … goes to God and the mujahideen in Afghanistan

    Next up, fight the Israelis and their friends. So much for winning hearts and minds. It just doesn’t work that way.

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  84. Section8

    Tell me CM, what was the reasoning for spinning this to a murder incident? It’s to flame, nothing more, just like all your posts. You’re useless.

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  85. Section8

    Anyhow, Jim, I do again apologize if I was considered party to the crap that went on yesterday, and it appears to be the same today, I too have had enough, it’s the same crap if not just blatant disdain for the US, then the let’s try to be clever and appear rational while playing the nuanced take a jab game to get a response. So, I’ll take a break for a while, and these guys can go on with their tripe. Again, it’s just finding fault with any decision, going home, staying there, whatever, and not to mention, taking small bits of truth like pissing a dead guy, and enjoying the idea of large chunks of the imagined to promote their views, I bet they murdered them! Fucking ridiculous here.

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  86. CM

    Tell me CM, what was the reasoning for spinning this to a murder incident?

    I completely disagree that I was attempting to spin this into a “murder incident” or anything remotely similar. I cannot believe you’re even trying to go there. I thought it was a point worth noting at the end of a post – who are the dead guys? How on earth you stretch that into me spinning this into a murder incident is beyond my comprehension. For a start, where did I even infer they were killed by the soldiers pissing on them? YOU were the one that started talking about murder. All I was interested in was pointing out that we don’t know who the dead people are. AFAIK we’re all just assuming. But I didn’t even begin to question how they died, which is a fundamental requirement to start talking about murder.

    It’s to flame, nothing more, just like all your posts. You’re useless.

    Given your obvious inability to comprehend what I’ve actually posted, that’s absolutely meaningless.

    …because we do know that no matter what, your exploitation of any incident in the name of bashing the US is a real driver for you.

    This is some very obvious projection. What you really meant was “CM no matter what you post, I’ll make sure I interpret it to mean you’re bashing the US”. Because what I’ve actually done is nothing of the sort. Not even remotely.

    How depressingly inevitable that the thread turns into this shit. Yet again.

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  87. richtaylor365 *

    Tell me CM, what was the reasoning for spinning this to a murder incident?

    Ya know, I was thinking the same thing. Why speculate over shit that we don’t know? The military is investigating the incident and part and parcel of the investigation will be the events (justifications) that lead up to these 3 dead bodies. The video is titled ,”US Marines urinate on Taliban corpses”, isn’t that enough to work with? I don’t think it was intentional but by even bringing up the fact that these guys might possibly be innocent Koran sellers who were “murdered” by the Marines, what is the point of that?

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  88. CM

    Have you guys had a mass gas leak or something?
    WHERE THE FUCK DID I SUGGEST IT WAS A MURDER?

    Why speculate over shit that we don’t know?

    Can you point out where there hasn’t been speculation? We know very little more than what is shown in the video. Everything else is speculation, Including the premise behind arguments such as “they started it”. Why suddenly have an issue with me pointing out that one of the aspects we don’t know about is who these dead guys are.

    The military is investigating the incident and part and parcel of the investigation will be the events (justifications) that lead up to these 3 dead bodies.

    For sure.

    ….by even bringing up the fact that these guys might possibly be innocent Koran sellers who were “murdered” by the Marines, what is the point of that?

    That’s just too ridiculous to respond to.

    I hope someone turns off that gas sometime real soon.

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  89. Section8

    Apparently Rich thought he exact same thing as I, so again, cut the bullshit.

    Hohokiss has brought up the issue of who the bodies actually are. We’ve all been told they are Taleban. Is this a fact? People seem to be taking it as a fact. On what basis? Because the person who posted it on YouTube said so?

    then..

    (I threw up in my mouth a little linking to the Daily Mail)

    What happens to the “they started it!” argument if it turns out their were just Afghanis?

    Based on what they are dead bodies? There are thousands of dead bodies in this war, why not drop your mouth on that and assume they are all murders.

    Same old throw flame, then who me shit. Fucking just stupid.

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  90. richtaylor365 *

    Do we REALLY know that these guys were US Marines? I’m speculating that they were actually part of the German/NATO contingent and this video was made to embarrass us.

    Do we REALLY know that these dead guys were Taliban? I’m speculating that they were actually innocent farmers who caught those Marines raping their daughters, and had to be silenced the ugly way.

    Do we REALLY know if this whole video is real? I’ve read about sex fetishes were people like to be urinated on, maybe this all went down in the Hollywood Hills, all by willing participants.

    To mention that we do not know who these dead guys are, this infers, at least to me that they may not even be Taliban fighters but innocent civilians, which by extension indicates some wrong doing in their death, why even go there?

    As I said CM, I don’t attribute nefarious intent or anything like that, but my natural reaction to your “speculation” about these dead bodies was that you were starting your own conspiracy theory about what REALLY killed these guys and why did they die.

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  91. CM

    Apparently Rich thought he exact same thing as I, so again, cut the bullshit.

    So you both got it wrong. Big deal. If you’re both ultra-defensive on the blame-US-for-everything meme, that might explain it.
    There is no bullshit to cut. Your accusation makes no sense.

    Then you post some of what I said, none of which even remotely suggests ‘murder’. Where did I suggest murder?

    Based on what they are dead bodies? There are thousands of dead bodies in this war, why not drop your mouth on that and assume they are all murders.

    Another statement which is too stupid to respond to.

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  92. CM

    Do we REALLY know that these guys were US Marines? I’m speculating that they were actually part of the German/NATO contingent and this video was made to embarrass us.

    Do you remember what happened to Piers Morgan at the Daily Mirror?

    Do we REALLY know that these dead guys were Taliban? I’m speculating that they were actually innocent farmers who caught those Marines raping their daughters, and had to be silenced the ugly way.

    You seem to mocking a query about who the dead guys are but in order for the mocking to work you’ve got to be pretty sure already. Aside from the message posted with the video, what else are basing your assumption on?

    Do we REALLY know if this whole video is real? I’ve read about sex fetishes were people like to be urinated on, maybe this all went down in the Hollywood Hills, all by willing participants.

    Sure, sure, you’ve just “read” about them ;-)
    Again, ask Piers Morgan. He fell for such a hoax.

    Anyway, you’re now party to making a mountain out of a molehill. I have no reason to believe the dead guys are anything other than Taleban, but I’m still only assuming. Who they are should obviously be part of the investigation for good reason. And if it turns out they weren’t Taleban, those who played the “they started it/they do worse” argument would be found to have based their opinions on assumptions.

    To mention that we do not know who these dead guys are, this infers, at least to me that they may not even be Taliban fighters but innocent civilians, which by extension indicates some wrong doing in their death, why even go there?

    I didn’t intend to infer anything other than the fact that their idenitities are unknown and everyone seems to be basing their opinions on information provided by the person who uploaded this. I can confirm now, once and for all, that I did not intend to infer that these bodies were the result of murder, or that the guys pissing on them did anything wrong other than piss on them.

    As I said CM, I don’t attribute nefarious intent or anything like that, but my natural reaction to your “speculation” about these dead bodies was that you were starting your own conspiracy theory about what REALLY killed these guys and why did they die.

    I’m sorry but you guys are the only ones speculating about murder. Amongst a whole lot of other more important stuff, I picked up on hoho’s point about not yet having sufficient information on the identities of the bodies. I’m lost on how this has turned to shit. All I can put it down to is a case of being over-sensitive and over-interpretating as a result.

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  93. Mississippi Yankee

    Can you point out where there hasn’t been speculation? We know very little more than what is shown in the video. Everything else is speculation, Including the premise behind arguments such as “they started it”.

    As I stated much earlier… The biggest SPECULATION is that there ever was any urine.

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  94. hohokiss

    jajaja a bit off-topic, but I was a bit surprised that in that “anti-Americanism” chart the US only held 13% of Mexico’s hearts and minds favorably, whereas 49% had an unfavorable view. So when i just read this I couldn’t resist drawing yet more parallels:

    http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/15/world/mexico-drug-war-essay/index.html?hpt=hp_c2

    For more than a decade, the United States’ focus has been terrorism, an exhausting battle reliant on covert operatives in societies where the rule of law has collapsed or widespread violence is the norm. The situation in Mexico is beginning to show similarities. In many border areas, the authority of the Mexican state seems either entirely absent or extremely weak. In September 2010, U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said cartel violence might be “morphing into or making common cause with what we would call an insurgency.”

    Oh really.

    For most of us, Mexico is reduced several times a week to a sickening barrage of horror flick headlines. Thirty-five bodies left on the freeway during rush-hour in a major tourist city. A person’s face sewn onto a soccer ball. Bodies found stuffed in barrels of acid. Heads sent rolling onto busy nightclub dance floors.
    What could explain such savagery? Traffickers don’t have a political or religious ideology like al Qaeda. The answer, some experts say, is a number. Something like $39 billion.

    Whats the source of this money? Says another chart:

    Number of drug users in the US
    8.7% persons 12 and over with any illicit drug use within last month
    21.8 million Americans close to the size of the population of Australia
    48,000 killed in 5 years

    Wheres the entertainment for kids?

    YouTube is full of narco snuff. Those with weak stomachs should avoid the wildly popular El Blog del Narco, which posts gory photos of killings and confessions by drug lords. Cartels make their own movies, glorifying the business. The films are sold in street markets in Mexico and the United States.

    No way. youtube.

    It only takes a few people with particularly hollow morals, capable of shutting off or suppressing guilt, to convince many that killing and dying in spectacular ways is tantamount to glory.

    Jihadist groups, kamikaze squadrons, American street gangs, cartels. Their members were all kids at one point. Grillo writes that he has seen teenagers show up at murder scenes showing no grief. It has become routine.

    Ah those crazy kids.

    Last fall, Texas Gov. Rick Perry, a candidate for the 2012 GOP presidential nomination, said he thought the drug war violence had become so dire that U.S. troops could be sent into Mexico. Drug trafficking in Mexico, he and others have said, fuels criminal organizations around the globe and feeds human and arms trafficking.
    Perry had barely finished his thought before being pounced on by critics, many within his own party and especially his opponents: How would a limping U.S. economy pay for that? The United States was already involved in two wars.

    Was losing two wars.

    In 2009, the group Los Tigres del Norte were banned from performing a popular song titled “La Granja” at an awards ceremony in Mexico City.
    The lyrics blast the Mexican government’s strategy against the cartels, a “Fox” who came to break plates on a farm. The animals got out “to create a big mess.”
    The lyrics also suggest that America, Mexico’s No. 1 drug customer, is just as dirty.

    Aaaargh. The US is getting blamed again, for doing bad things with its wealth and opportunity. See this may be karma again. working in strange ways.

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  95. hohokiss

    $39 billion sure would pay most of my medical bills; my former docs are going bankrupt. but I’m just being selfish, I guess.
    So the best thing to do with this whole mess is don the old conspiracy hat and conclude that its the Zionist lobby convinced the US government that Islam is the greater threat, while it sells speedboats to cartels along the Gulf coast.

    And with that I bid you gnite for real.

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  96. hist_ed

    A final thought or two:
    This incident is not going to make anyone hate the US. Those who already like the US or are ambivalent will not change their view because of one isolated incident. Those who hate the US will not hate us more. They don’t hate us because marines piss on corpses. They don’t hate us because of Gitmo or Abu Graihb. They hate us because we represent Western Civilization. We allow our wives, sisters and daughters to be full members of society. We don’t set up clerics as the bosses of society. We generally let people do what they want as long as they don’t harm others. We allow (mostly) free inquiry into just about anything. Finally, we don’t bow to Mecca and we certainly don’t recognize that Islam is the one and only way and that all the world should be ruled by Islam. That is why they hate us, and discussing this as if it changes anything shows that we, as a society, are not serious about confronting what we are facing.

    Hearts and minds is a bullshit way to win a major war. The enemy needs to to be beaten in such a way that they know they are beaten.

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  97. ryansparx

    Zionist lobby

    Stopped reading right there. I have seen the light.

    Boy, I must say, that this thread has been the most informative, rational, civil discussion I have ever seen. It’s a true wonder on how this blog goes from quiet ghost town into flurry of AMAZING out of nowhere.

    Such a vibrant, organic community, drawing all of the best parts of society into one place. A forum for gentlemen. I am in awe.

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  98. mrblume

    We allow our wives, sisters and daughters to be full members of society. We don’t set up clerics as the bosses of society. We generally let people do what they want as long as they don’t harm others. We allow (mostly) free inquiry into just about anything

    You are giving these people too much credit. They are quite like us. We may nominally claim that we care about the ills in some foreign country, but we don’t really, not particularly. Not enough to interrupt our daily routine.

    Of course, the whole “they hate us for our freedoms” stick is very convenient. It eliminates all the tough choices, all real world complexities, and pits you in a fight of good vs. evil.

    It’s also incredibly stupid. If you really think someone is going to blow themselves up because thousands of miles away you are letting your wife drive a car, then you’re slightly overestimating your relevance in this life.

    It’s really not that hard to understand that people don’t like being pressured, bullied, their internal affairs meddled with, their governments overthrown, their children being killed. If you can make an argument that all of that is righteous, moral, for the greater good, then… well, you should make it.

    If you can’t, then your next best bet is to say that “they” hate the US for supporting for Israel, because there you have a cause that is easy to justify, and it also happens to be true.

    But to be so intellectually dishonest with yourself, just because you prefer to live in a comic book world – I wouldn’t recommend it. At the very least, you’ll have to find a different reason why the US isn’t at this point particularly liked in other places either, you know, countries not ruled by clerics.

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  99. hohokiss

    Such a vibrant, organic community, drawing all of the best parts of society into one place. A forum for gentlemen. I am in awe.

    Heres a youtube video that fits it the mood here perfectly.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1T5EGGl8mo

    Nortel was formed in 1882, etc. At its height, it accounted for more than a third of the total valuation of all the companies listed on the Toronto Stock Exchange.
    In 2001 it laid off two-thirds of its workforce (60,000 staff) among writedowns of nearly US$16 billion. Nortel’s market capitalization fell from C$398 billion in September 2000 to less than C$5 billion in August 2002.
    With an unexpected return to profitability reported in the first quarter of 2003, the black ink triggered a total of US$19 million in bonuses to the top 43 managers, with US$5 million alone going to CEO Dunn, who was eventually fired. Retired United States Admiral Bill Owens was appointed interim CEO.
    On January 14, 2009, Nortel filed for protection from creditors, paying out retention bonuses to almost 1,000 top executives, totalling up to US$45 million. The shaky, hand-held video “I Believe in Nortel” was uploaded to youtube on Jan 15, 2009 showing faithful employees speaking out for the company.

    As insurance against judgments in class action lawsuits filed by former employees, former CEO John Roth filed in December 2009 for a US$1 billion indemnification from Nortel, joining the list of U.S. creditors.

    Bankruptcy filings state that Nortel owes former Canadian engineers $285,000 for patent awards that were not paid

    Yeah, well piss on the non-believers, eh. I was only there, so I can’t know what really happened.

    This incident is not going to make anyone hate the US

    (sic) your wrong about people changing their minds about the US over this video. I spent years, as biafra, jabba, 4characters, at Moorewatch and elsewhere, tirelessly bandying with Euros and CM come to admonish the US over its lack of free health care, racism, imperialism, being the sole cause of global warming, its lack of culture, etc. Won’t happen again, and I’ll cite the piss video and RTFTLC’s poo-pooing it as the last straw of countless little ones accumulated over just the last two years.

    There are no jobs, no money, bankruptcy everywhere, beggars on every street corner hustling Contributor, folks (aye, whites, too) hitting me up for change at gas stations, rich folks doping up cuz they can, haha (sic) loosers, while tax dollars go to Afghanistan for goddam 10 years to make amateur films. Were lacking a whole lot. So why not fix it already? I need money and I need it now. There are doctors to pay and they’re going broke, too.

    Whats else is there to be outraged about? Ah, i some idiot pissers get thrown to the wolves, booted out of the military with a dishonorable, or have to serve even one day of jail time. Because then Islam and the Left will have won.

    I want my effing money so I can get out of this place.

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  100. sahrab

    Do we REALLY know that these guys were US Marines? I’m speculating that they were actually part of the German/NATO contingent and this video was made to embarrass us.

    Do we REALLY know that these dead guys were Taliban? I’m speculating that they were actually innocent farmers who caught those Marines raping their daughters, and had to be silenced the ugly way.

    Do we REALLY know if this whole video is real? I’ve read about sex fetishes were people like to be urinated on, maybe this all went down in the Hollywood Hills, all by willing participants.

    Its not like there isnt a history of staged photos

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  101. sahrab

    This thread is winding down (thankfully) so I’ll close with this. What burns my biscuits is the total lack or perspective or point of reference wrt those getting overly indignant. For those that wish us harm, it’s not going to make a bit of difference, I doubt the extremists are going to change their attitude from really wanting to kill us to really really wanting to kill us

    Here is my issue with the incident, it has nothing to do with how the enemy treats our soldiers, it has to do with how our side treats the enemy.

    The entire reason our side has a stake in this fight is because our society believes we (society) are better than the Taliban/Al Qeda/Terrorist. Its simplistic but at the point where we generalize the deviance and become the same as the Taliban/Al Qeda/Terrorists then why are we fighting them?

    This is the same argument as the “Torture” one. It doesnt matter whether you/i/anyone thinks waterboarding is torture. The United States Government states it is torture (read the memo, it states it clearly we would accuse other countires that commit the same acts as torture), and agreed (through the Geneva Convention) that we are against it. By committing the acts, but claiming some moral high ground for doing it, is no different than the camel humpers that doe the same thing.

    At that point why fight them, join the fuckers as your no different.

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  102. hohokiss

    Of course, the whole “they hate us for our freedoms” stick is very convenient. It eliminates all the tough choices, all real world complexities, and pits you in a fight of good vs. evil.

    Aye, as I mentioned elsewhere, freedom of speech is sacrosanct in the US, until you, say, criticize a video they like on youtube, then its all “STFU fag STFU”. Smarties like to argue along the lines of “youtubes a private forum, so its not protected by the 1st Amendment, asshole” sure, but the fact remains that every user once signed their own name under youtube’s Terms of Service, agreeing to keep it clean, respect others’ opinions, etc. “freedom” = “free to be as stupid as I wanna be (you fag)”

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  103. hohokiss

    . By committing the acts, but claiming some moral high ground for doing it, is no different than the camel humpers that doe the same thing.

    “Well they do it too” “They started it” is what some adults have been saying, which makes it okay. And they’re admonishing other adults, like Lt. General Curtis Scaparrotti, head of day-to-day Afghan operations, who said the defiling, mocking, desecration, or filming of insurgent dead is a grave breach of the law of armed conflict. as puppets of the regime, all too eager to sacrifice the lads, who’d made a minor mistake, to keep their jobs .

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  104. hohokiss

    And this nuther minor incident is just ramping up. Surely the Chinese wouldn’t dare use this as propaganda? We own them and their godless Communist child-worker sweatshops making toys for our kids!

    The first of eight US soldiers accused of bullying a Chinatown-raised private so badly he committed suicide, appeared before a military judicial panel in Kandahar, Afghanistan, for a preliminary hearing yesterday.
    Spc. Ryan Offutt, 32, described as Pvt. Danny Chen’s most merciless tormenter, faces up to 23 years in prison.
    Military investigators believe Chen, 19, facing unrelenting barrages of racial slurs, humiliation and bullying, shot himself in the head on Oct. 3.
    Offut allegedly dragged Chen through rough gravel, kicked him and made him crawl on the ground while pelting him with rocks on the day of his suicide.

    Is this indeed just another case of kids doing dumb things, or is it a cultural thing?

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  105. CM

    Yet you did, and made it quite clear. Since the video only states they were Taliban, we should seriously consider the other possibilities right now, how’s that for using it as propaganda. No need to wait for a cleric to do it, it was enough to make you nearly vomit in your mouth.

    That’s so far removed from what happened that I assume you’ve given up making sense. I assumed they were Taleban in my comments in this thread. If I didn’t most of my comments would make as little sense as yours. I still assume they were, even though I picked up on hohokiss’s point that we don’t even know for sure if they were or not. The soldiers could have stumbled across the bodies for all we know. As I said already: We know very little more than what is shown in the video. Everything else is speculation.

    Honestly, if that’s your standard for what constitutes anti-Americanism, then you must see it absolutely everywhere you look. Which would explain your general attitude.

    Here’s what we already know about CM, and apparently the same mode of operation brought over from Moorewatch.

    Left wing ideologue, who doesn’t have an ounce of integrity to at least admit it, will go on about Alex while going ahead and taking a story tacking on to it for his own personal agenda, will present himself as having a rational argument, but if the debate goes on long enough will go on to hash out every left leaning talking point imaginable, including implying possibilities that have no absolutely no fact behind them, to the point that he nearly vomits.

    What positions do I hold that make me a left wing ideologue? Come on, provide some examples? Balthazar tried recently and failed. But at least he tried. Invariably accusations like yours are completely empty of any supporting evidence. I won’t hold my breath waiting for you to come up with any. You have none in this thread, you’re based your whole melt-down on an incorrect interpretation of what I said (an interpretation which is inconsistent with other comments of mine in the same thread).
    I did not imply that anyone was murdered. That is in your imagination.

    You are a fucking lying bullshitter, smiley faces, and snide retractions notwithstanding.

    That’s entirely meaningless considering what you’ve done here.

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  106. Section8

    That’s so far removed from what happened that I assume you’ve given up making sense.

    Not at all, and people can go back to this thread and see it. A habitual liar such as yourself is going to deny no matter what evidence is presented, you were already doing it a few threads later when Rich also commented, so to rehash threads of past where you do the exact same thing, and/or pass out every left wing talking points with the exact some denials of doing so won’t really matter. All you have to do is sit back and go no I didn’t, provide more evidence. You have the easy job on that one, and you know it, but lying about lies only works for you. I’ll leave it to the people here who have read your garbage in this thread and others, and the same complaints I’ve read from others here who have come from Moorewatch regarding the same conversation tactics, but everyone is wrong but you. Again, that’s how habitual liars work.

    You are the one who chose to head down the path of speculation regarding this, and the speculation was enough to make you nearly vomit, but hey I said they were probably Taliban so that’s that, and I have no idea why I might want to vomit.

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  107. CM

    Not at all, and people can go back to this thread and see it.

    Exactly. But I’m asking you to point to where I inferred they were murdered? And you’ll need to do it without infecting it with your anti-American hair-trigger defence-reflex.

    A habitual liar

    Please provide examples of where I have lied. Othereise this is just another in a series of baseless lazy accusations.

    no matter what evidence is presented,

    Where is this evidence? If it’s so obvious you should easily be able to provide some clear-cut quotes.

    so to rehash threads of past where you do the exact same thing, and/or pass out every left wing talking points with the exact some denials of doing so won’t really matter.

    Thought so.

    All you have to do is sit back and go no I didn’t, provide more evidence.

    More? How about any at all.

    You have the easy job on that one, and you know it, but lying about lies only works for you.

    Nothing is easier than making baseless accusations. Nothing is as revelatory as asking for evidence and none being provided.

    I’ll leave it to the people here who have read your garbage in this thread and others,

    What have I said that is garbage? I’m more than happy for people to make up their own minds too. If they want to be ridiculous as well, good luck to them. If you read all my comments in this thread then you’ll find your narrative doesn’t work.

    and the same complaints I’ve read from others here who have come from Moorewatch regarding the same conversation tactics, but everyone is wrong but you. Again, that’s how habitual liars work.

    Such as who?
    I thought they’d work by actually telling lies. So what lies have I told?

    You are the one who chose to head down the path of speculation regarding this,

    No, hohokiss mentioned it first. I hadn’t even thought of it until he mentioned it. It’s still a relevant part of this whole thing, whether you’ve decided to nut-out and run off on some loony-tunes adventure or not.

    and the speculation was enough to make you nearly vomit, but hey I said they were probably Taliban so that’s that, and I have no idea why I might want to vomit

    Vomit? WTF are you talking about? YOU were the one who took this whole thing to crazy town all of a sudden. And when corrected you’re doubling-down on the stupidity.

    It’s hilarious how bent out of shape you’ve gotten about speculation given the contributors here who actively pride themselves on presenting speculation as fact on a weekly basis. The cognitive dissonance is breathtaking.

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  108. hohokiss

    Honestly, if that’s your standard for what constitutes anti-Americanism, then you must see it absolutely everywhere you look. Which would explain your general attitude.

    Them good old boys throughout the South carry a downright Talibensque chip on their shoulder when it comes to Yankees visiting their homeland for any reason, I’ve experienced this ritual countless times in God’s own country.

    And I’m sure I mentioned this over at Moorewatch, that in my second year of high school in Germany, I was sitting at my desk in the morning, waiting for class to start, when one of my classmates walked in, dropped his bag by his desk, set himself up in front of my desk, waved a finger in my face and exclaimed “You’re an American!” stood silently for a while to let the quiet class to absorb the horror, and walked away.
    Nevermind that I had a German passport, speak German fluently, obviously acted like a generic Kraut to all appearances, was subject to conscriptive military service like every other strapping Aryan lad. I’d lived in the US, but didn’t openly hate it, therefore I was the Enemy.

    The same exact type asses fester everywhere I move.

    This same thing can and will happen to you in the Confederate states if you tawk Noo Yawk a bit too convincingly. Effin’ a. The Civil Wars not forgotten here, the Act of Northern Aggression, where Yankee bastards shot unarmed Southerners from behind in their sleep, and the Good Old Boys were forced to defend themselves barefoot in the snow, at night, uphill in every direction.
    Godless Islam has replaced the absolute and total hysteria Umurkins once harbored for godless Communism, which was sure to kill you in your sleep if you didn’t see it and kill it everywhere first. Drop Agent Orange on it, nuke it before it nukes you.
    Americas the only country that matters, and the only part that matters is the South, and it was perfect before the Civil War, and if you disagree Bubba gonna come shoot you, Comministical bastard.

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  109. balthazar

    Wow. That’s quite incredible what you’ve done there.
    I’d seek help.

    Yeah, your slippery, it is incredible he caught you as handily as he did.

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  110. hist_ed

    I did not intend to restart the “why the Arabs/Muslims hate us” thread from way back. All I intended really to say (poorly, I admit, damn that Scotch again) was that this incident is like pissing in a hurricane. I doesn’t matter. It didn’t change anyone’s minds about the United State and within a week or two it will be largely forgotten.

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  111. hist_ed

    Oh and Hohokiss, the First Amendment is a restriction on government actions. It does not not restrain criticism of others’ speech. In fact, all those butt hurt fan boys yelling at you are an example of the glorious First Amendment in action. They get to call you an asshole, douche bag, shit eating idiot and yell at you to shut the fuck up and the government can’t stop them.

    Someone must have really hurt your little feelings on some youtube thread somewhere. You seem to be obsessed.

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  112. hohokiss

    Ah, but responses to comments typically read “STFU (sic) your a homo” “drink piss (sic) niger” “I hope you die of cancer you (sic) fucking fagget” “fuck off chink cunt” “niggers fucked your mama up the ass”.
    I’ve been declared a non-American homosexual, infirm, homeless, unemployed, transgender, pedophile, overweight minority into bestiality, all worthy of censorship and even death, via natural causes or hit squad for not adoring some idol.
    Thats freedom of speech where the morally elite live, so thats a different story, innit? Again, all these people signed their names under the Terms, agreeing to keep it clean, but ignore it all for generic shits and giggles. No biggie, says their culture.
    How seroiusly should their word be taken in the real world, where racism, violence etc is perped by – whom? Surely not the countless scores of folks openly endorsing it online?
    I maintain that these people are no whit different than, say, generic Islamists exercising their own freedom of speech, religion and whatnot, chanting and, aye, practicing “Death to America!” “USA the Great Satan” Kill the infidel!”, beating and silencing uppity women not up to their standards, etc. Americans want to beat “pussies” and “fags” who don’t adore, too, they say so on youtube. And its tolerated cuz its no big deal, just a lil fun and, and FREEDOM OF SPEECH GOBLESS UMURKA!

    Hmmmmmm, which one to be loyal to? They all want you dead?

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  113. hohokiss

    It didn’t change anyone’s minds about the United State and within a week or two it will be largely forgotten.

    I disagree as its changed my mind about the US drastically. Its my “Born on the 4th of July” moment, you know somewhat like

    The biography of Ron Kovic. Paralyzed in the Vietnam war, he becomes an anti-war and pro-human rights political activist after feeling betrayed by the country he fought for.

    (we could look it up a longer synapsis on Wiki, but, shoot, thats blacked out thanks to the US Congress) Anyway, I got sick in the US and needed some charity, but all I got is “fuck you ask Obama” and “STFU” as friends and such walked off and went to buy Ozzy tickets. Ozzy is God in the US.

    Theres this dude I know who once publicly mentioned his wife’s having some doctor bills, too, and
    a rich celebrity stepped up and offered some cash. I sure could use some luck like that. So I asked said celebrity for some, but got none, and I asked the dude for some, got “STFU”. Now I have to ask the US at large to get this debt off my ass so I can realize my dream of never having to ask em for anything again. Cuz all I get is “STFU fag”. After all the shit I put up with, being one of them abroad, its all basically “STFU fag”
    Boys sent to Afghanistan at a few trillion $ to piss on corpses. Now thats worth every penny. Guffaw, guffaw

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  114. JimK

    Oh that’s YOU? Okay.

    Heed this: You start ONE – 1 – as in a SINGLE fucking conversation about your previous spammy obsession and I will ban you and your entire fucking IP class. I will keep banning and deleting your shit until you give up. You will never win this war. We’re not doing this again. I don’t even want to see smartass comments about it in passing. You were incredibly rude and out of line about it the first, second and thirtieth times around, and the bullshit ain’t gotten better with age. Cross me once on this topic and you’re gone.

    You do not need to reply to this comment, nor will any discussion be had about the matter. You will either listen to me on this or be gone, without warning or discussion. I hope that’s clear to you, because it’s the last fucking time I’m talking about it.

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