Jubilee

That’s apparently one idea that the OccupyWallStreet crowd are keen on: an expansion of the stupid “get rid of student debt” idea I flayed a couple of weeks ago.

So my immodest proposal is simply this: Individuals and households in the bottom 99 percent who owe debt to any large financial institution that received federal government support during and after the 2008 crisis should see their debt forgiven. That would certainly stimulate the economy, as most people would suddenly find themselves with a great deal more money to spend on iPads (and food, and clothing, and housing, and healthcare). The debt can be forgiven by decree or if the government really wants to it can step in to pay it itself; I don’t much care either way. (Though it’d be nice to see it just wiped off the books, to enrage the banks.)

Let’s wipe the debt of the 99 percent off the books, tell the financial sector to eat it, and get on with our lives.

I can’t even call this Keynsianism. This is pure plunder. Pareene and his numerous supporters can proclaim this to be a stimulus all they want. But one man’s debt is another’s asset. The banks would suddenly be out trillions of dollars in capital and we might trigger bailouts all over again. Your debt would be gone; and so would your job. And the moral hazard would be extreme. Who would want to loan money in the future, knowing the debt could be erased any time a bunch of dirty kids occupies a New York thoroughfare? Indeed, if you look at the history of the jubilee, you’ll find this became a big problem and loan societies had to find ways around it. If God can’t make people loan money before a jubilee, how is Barack Obama going to?

(I’ll leave to you the irony of a bunch of liberals invoked Biblical law as a precedent. Or a bunch of supposed non-partisan activists calling for the most massive forced redistribution of wealth in history. Or the fact that since the cutoff for “the 99%” is half a million, most of this debt relief would be going to people with pretty solid incomes, not the poor and unemployed.)

Now the justification for this is TARP and the Wall Street bailout. Several people, Erin Burnett notably, have pointed out that the bailouts weren’t just a handout; the banks paid back their loans. But I think that too misses the point. The bailouts were a mistake, not a model for what should be done with the rest of the country. Our Congress didn’t even bother to attach conditions for taking the money, such as firing directors or canceling bonuses (actually, Chris Dodd made sure AIG bonuses were protected). The proper response to a dumb idea is not to follow it with an even dumber one.

Look, I understand the anger OWS are feeling and entirely sympathize. The banks are too big; the financial sector has far too much political power. Banks are sitting on piles of cash while some people are entering their third year without the hope of a job. It’s tough. Every night, I think about how lucky I am to have work.

But burning the house down isn’t the answer.

(McArdle has a decent idea: change the law so that student loans can be discharged in bankruptcy. They are presently the only loans that can’t be. Student debt has quintupled in the last decade and Big Education is becoming a huge bubble. Maybe it’s time to let the air out.)

As I said before, the OWS crowd is still organic, still figuring out what they stand for. But if this is the best they can come up with so far, maybe Herman Cain is right about them.

Comments are closed.

  1. richtaylor365

    You had me, right up until this part:

    Banks are sitting on piles of cash while some people are entering their third year without the hope of a job.

    There are so many things wrong with that. First off, the notion that banks are sitting on piles of cash after Dodd/Frank is ridiculous. Why do you think B of A did the unthinkable and started charging for checking and for debit card usage? They are going broke, they need the money to survive. Do you own any bank stocks, how are those working out? And even if it was true (which it ain’t) it’s their money, they can do whatever they damn well want with it. The sentiment that ,”Hey, those guys over there have money, we don’t, let’s go take it from them”, really, is there a more accurate definition of class warfare then that? It’s not fair that they have so much and we have so little, something needs to be done about that.

    And as far as discharging student debt through bankruptcy, how would that solve the problem? They still get to walk away from their obligations and responsibilities. And since they needed to eat and buy things while in college, let’s discharge all that credit card debt as well, who cares that some one else will cut stuck in the process. Most student loans were government sponsored, the government can just print more money, they can absorb the loss much better then I can. So Student A does his research and realizes that he can’t afford college right now so he forgoes college for a few years and gets a job, it doesn’t pay much but he would rather pay for his own education, that’s how his parents raised him. Student B otoh goes all in, he decides to charge his entire education, racking up massive student loan debts, he lives in the present and can’t worry about the future. Student B graduates with degree in hand, then finds all his educational debt wiped away, what luck, but poor student A says ,”Hey, what about me, I did the responsible thing trying to earn my way through college, where is my free education?”

    Thumb up 1

  2. Manwhore

    There are so many things wrong with that. First off, the notion that banks are sitting on piles of cash after Dodd/Frank is ridiculous. Why do you think B of A did the unthinkable and started charging for checking and for debit card usage? They are going broke, they need the money to survive. Do you own any bank stocks, how are those working out? And even if it was true (which it ain’t) it’s their money, they can do whatever they damn well want with it. The sentiment that ,”Hey, those guys over there have money, we don’t, let’s go take it from them”, really, is there a more accurate definition of class warfare then that? It’s not fair that they have so much and we have so little, something needs to be done about that.

    As usual, you are wrong, and horribly wrong. Especially about b of a. They are sitting on piles of taxpayer money, and the debit card charge is a fucking joke. Hal is right, a lot of these kids are getting out of school with no prospects, and corporate pay has only gone down for the middle class for decades.

    You may own stock in b of a but you do not choose the board or the CEO, that is a total insider game.

    Thumb up 2

  3. Hal_10000 *

    First off, the notion that banks are sitting on piles of cash after Dodd/Frank is ridiculous.

    This isn’t even a debate; it’s a fact. Here’s just one report from the pinko WSJ: (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704312104575298652567988246.html). The banks fees and stocks are irrelevant to their current liquid assets. I wasn’t saying we should take money from them (which is what a jubilee would effectively do). I was saying I understand why this might anger people.

    As for student debt, it’s the most rapidly rising form of debt. And our refusal to include it in bankruptcy proceedings is a HUGE subsidy to higher education. Why should they get a special deal that other lenders don’t? If bankruptcy erases debts, let it erase all debts. Bankruptcy is not an easy process by any means and stays on a credit record for seven years.

    If we remove the exemption for student loans, it will be *more* difficult for students to borrow their way through college. Right now banks are happy to loan a student 70 grand to get a useless degree because the debt is guaranteed. If it’s not, that shit will stop. (Existing loans would be grandfathered in). And it will take the college bubble with it, making education cheaper for everyone.

    Thumb up 1

  4. Manwhore

    As for student debt, it’s the most rapidly rising form of debt. And our refusal to include it in bankruptcy proceedings is a HUGE subsidy to higher education.

    It’s a larger debt ratio than the housing crisis that is quietly not talked about.

    Thumb up 0

  5. Seattle Outcast

    change the law so that student loans can be discharged in bankruptcy. They are presently the only loans that can’t be

    Can’t you see how this is going to work out? Run up a massive student loan debt, then just fucking take a couple years off and declare bankruptcy before joining the work force. For some of them they get their diploma and start the court proceedings that afternoon.

    Instead we out to start making it difficult to get into college again and/or eliminating most of the available tuition money. Pop the bubble sooner rather than later.

    Thumb up 0

  6. richtaylor365

    I wasn’t arguing the fact that big corporations are hording cash, only the notion that that cash somehow belonged to financial institutions, it doesn’t, it belongs to the depositors, who could take that money out at any time. Those depositors could decide that they want to invest that money overseas, or build a new factory, or even hire more workers, so that “pile of cash” you speak of that banks are sitting on is illusory at best.

    Get getting back to the bigger problem, when people borrow money, whether it be credit card debt, mortgage on a house, car loan or educational loans, they get the money from somewhere (somebody/some entity who has that money lends it to them), but don’t pay it back, somebody is out that money, it is not magically paid back, that money is lost. Not to mention the fact that the borrower signed a contract, he contractually obligated himself to pay that money back, now he reneges and there is no consequences for that? Sorry, but if you are going to remove all responsibility for paying back money owed, then we have no capitalist system.

    Thumb up 3

  7. HARLEY

    hmm interesting idea, but we cant ship them all to Australia, or the moon for that matter, were not sure if there are lave tubes.

    Thumb up 0

  8. AlexInCT

    As usual, you are wrong, and horribly wrong. Especially about b of a. They are sitting on piles of taxpayer money,

    Surprises me how many people have no fucking clue how financial institutions, like banks, work. If banks have much larger cash reserves these days, that’s because the Dodd/Frank bill now requires that.It’s the law. This regulation mandated (not two guys going out) banks to keep a lot more liquid cash “laying about” than they used to, in order to back up their financial stability, and the Feds keep a close eye on that. If the bank does not have this cash “laying around” government assumes that they are on the brink of financial disaster, one financial crisis away from an implosion, and comes barging in, full force, to “save the day”. The bank then is fucked.

    Dodd/Frank also has made lending so restrictive that practically the only ones that qualify for a loan are the ones that don’t really need it anyway, because they already have the collateral/capital to back it up, What? You thought government could tell banks they HAD to keep much larger cash reserves & have to play by strict rules, or there would be nasty consequences, and that they would then not end up sitting on the cash?

    And if your point is that banks like BoA have money beyond that which is required, and are just “sitting on it”, then I think you should not be discussing this topic. Banks make no money “sitting on cash”: they make money loaning it out – wisely – at a percentage. Sure they will suffer if they loan it out badly, but historically financial institutions have been real good at figuring out risk vs. reward. Especially when compared to government. The one exception was in the lending in housing market. But if you insist in blaming banks, that where forced by law to loan money to high risk entitles by the feds, with serious consequences if they refrained from doing so because of the obvious fear that this was going to blow up, then were told by the feds that they would back them up with both tax payer money AND a scheme to make the shit sandwiches they ended up with when they lent money to these high risks cases palatable for investors, then the problem is with your ability to grasp cause & effect.

    and the debit card charge is a fucking joke

    No, the debit card fee is a direct consequence of Durbin’s idiotic law that tried to remove the cost of using debit cards large companies where paying banks – after he was lobbied hard and his campaign coffers filled – and stiff the banks with it. What good are “free services” that have a cost associated with them if your bank can’t balance it’s books and goes broke?

    Thumb up 3

  9. AlexInCT

    These neo-communists offspring of well-to-do white parents have always been in it for their own advantage. Everything they asked for was so they could skate responsibility and get back to a life of being taken care of by government while they play video games, drink booze, do drugs, and in general do nothing of value. Their parents likely have had enough and have cut them off.

    Most of these shitheads are heavily invested in avoiding any real kind of work. No wonder they are straddled with student loan debt and the dumb ideas they believe in, and now asking for that debt to be forgiven. They need a clean slate to go back and afford another decade of debauchery and fun at whatever college will take them.

    I do want to stress how ironic it seems to me that the thing they want to discharge and feel most oppressed by is fundamental to propping up the liberal academic bastion. Without government supported student loans, the left would lose these houses of indoctrination. Consider that you can discharge practically every form of debt in bankruptcy EXCEPT for student loan the next time you hear a liberal asshole talk about the abuses of Wall Street. That’s not by accident that the libs have protected the financial engine their lemming making machine depends on.

    Fuck, I hope these fuckers win the day and the whole school loan thing collapses into the rotten carcass it is. Send the entire bullshit machine scrambling for cover. Of course, as mentioned, the tax payer would likely be put on the hook for it by these communists.

    Thumb up 0

  10. AlexInCT

    You know that’s how slavery started in the ancient world right? Rome was build on the backs of people that didn’t pay their debt and ended as slaves.

    Sticking these fools in prison to watch TV all day, eat 3 squares, and have all the free sex they want, doesn’t seem like punishment to me.

    Thumb up 0

  11. richtaylor365

    Debtor’s prison would not work because the lender is still out the money he loaned. Maybe something akin to indentured servitude where the borrower is obligated to “work off” his debt to the satisfaction of the lender, this way the lender is made whole and people would think twice about incurring debt.

    Thumb up 0

  12. richtaylor365

    That was the point of my post, I thought.

    It was, and I was only quibbling about a small portion of it, if there was any disconnect, it was on my part.

    But the idea put forth that educational loans should be discharged has a large following, I have heard that crap on a number of OWS youtube videos. Regardless of whether their degree is worthless (which is isn’t, all stats point to a job market that favors degree holders over those that don’t) that is not the point. These crybabies borrowed money for their education that will at some point remunerate them, borrowing it with the obligation to pay it back. now they want to renege, walk away Scott free, and leave the institutional lender holding the bag, that is so wrong.

    The author of that link you provided talks about “economic justice”, there is no justice in a free market capitalistic system, those that can not compete goes out of business, no justice in that. He also talks about the benefits of absolving all these graduates from the school debt, how they would have all this free money to stimulate the economy by buying things, figures, these pampered underachievers could be even more pampered by surrounding themselves with even more luxuries. I understand the horse/cart analogy, that buying consumer goods does create more jobs because there is more demand for the goods, but it does provide an interesting glimpse into the mental hard wiring of these progressive types, no mention is made that this new found wealth could be used to better their marketability with learning more skills, or that they could be free to produce/create anything, no, the thinking is ,”Gee, I can buy more stuff”, if this is our best and brightest…………we are doomed.

    Thumb up 0

  13. Manwhore

    Job markets will favor next year (mark my words) a huge layoff of older staff that doesn’t understand the tech world for a more favorable younger workforce that is in tune with the way the world is changing.

    You can decide the intention of this shift while you are combing through your investments, but there are simple truths to many statements. It’s very dubious for b of a to have received tarp and then acquired countrywide, don’t you think? Has it paid out for you or them? Can you answer my question about being able to choose the board or CEO as a share holder?

    Thumb up 0

  14. Manwhore

    God, you screwed the pooch in front of the neighbors with your last statement about “historically they do it better than government except for the housing market (omfg the very reason we have to have the discussion). ”

    Yes, dude they royally fucked up, and no heads rolled. The point missed you by a mile, do you need the clue stick?

    Thumb up 1

  15. AlexInCT

    Yes, dude they royally fucked up, and no heads rolled. The point missed you by a mile, do you need the clue stick?

    Erm, did you miss the point about how it was government that forced them to screw the pooch then, when even the threats didn’t work well enough, and had to guaranteed them bailouts with our money? Maybe you have a hard time then figuring out who the bad guy is here, but to me it is very obvious. Blaming the banks in this scenario is like blaming the guy who has a bomb vest strapped to him by crooks and is told to rob a bank or he will get his ass killed, for the bank robbery.

    And the heads that need rolling are those of the politicians that set us up for this housing collapse, not the lenders they forced to do stupid shit through the combination of a gun to their heads and the offer of blow jobs. Instead two of the biggest culprits – Dodd and Frank – demanded to be the ones to straddle us with 2000 pages of new regulation that completely ignored the underlying fundamental cause, the two biggest culprits in this shuffle scheme, Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, and in general, screwed us the consumers yet again. direct your anger appropriately.

    Thumb up 1

  16. Seattle Outcast

    Banks are routinely audited by regulators that go over their books – one of the things they focus on is their asset to loan ratio, and if it’s out of what the regulator thinks is acceptable, you’re in a world of hurt. Not only are they looking to make sure they have sufficient money in reserve, they also have to have minimum percentages loaned out.

    When someone says that they are sitting on a load of cash, what they mean is that the ratio is out of balance. This will occur for a variety of reason, but primarily it’s because NOBODY IS ASKING FOR A LOAN, not because they just want it to stay in the vault collecting dust and actually being a drain on profits.

    As for the housing market, the heads that needed to roll were all in DC. That is where the regulators came from that literally forced lending institutions to engage in shitty mortgage practices.

    Now, stop fucking the dog and go inside.

    Thumb up 0

  17. Section8

    These protesters all seem to be white. I guess this makes them racist in a racist movement. At least that’s what I was told that’s what it was meant when the majority of protesters are white.

    Thumb up 2

  18. Manwhore

    Well, I think you just saw an implosion of the left wing in less time than it took for the right wing to implode under bush. Just like the tea party, it might be misguided at first, but the tea party did get a voice in government.

    Honestly, I think there are just so many people out of work they have nothing to do but protest. Are they racist? The Contrarian use to muse that everyone is racist, and here we are.

    Thumb up 0

  19. Manwhore

    No, dude. Everyone WANTS a loan. It’s my brother’s job to tell you that you can’t have one. Re-financing is at 4%. who wouldn’t want that but how do you even qualify, and who is going to give that rate to you? The tooth fairy? It certainly won’t be b of a or wells Fargo, or anyone like it.

    Thumb up 0

  20. Manwhore

    I’ve never seen a blog argument to argue both for a point and and against it. Bravo.I enjoy the idea that with unemployment so high that banks enjoy having a hoard of poor people’s cash. Spin me that tale. If no one has money, how does a bank have all of their cash? Osmosis?

    Thumb up 2

  21. Manwhore

    At least allow for bankruptcy for some student loans. Maybe a provision on the school’s accreditation. But to say, no matter what, unless you are dead or maimed to a degree you can’t work, you owe this is plain stupid.

    It’s made education a bubble.

    Thumb up 0

  22. CzarChasm

    Jim’s FaceBook link was cool. I couldn’t see all of it because I closed my FB account, which I only had for a few weeks to begin with, because I am concerned about their privacy policies. But the account Jim linked to is public for their wall and one picture I thought encapsulated the idiocy of the protests quite well:

    protest

    Thumb up 5

  23. CzarChasm

    Now to actually comment on the protests:

    The obvious derogatory message intended of the protests in the picture I posted above notwithstanding, I’m starting to take a rather uncharacteristic (for me) moderated view of the gatherings. Don’t get me wrong, I recognize the, so far, inability of anyone there to articulate a focused, clearly-framed issue that even has the potential to be addressed in these kinds of protests. I also acknowledge that overwhelmingly, the incoherent rantings of the protesters we’ve seen interviewed come from a decidedly leftist perspective. Obviously, those two truisms are not what I’m moderating about.

    What I’m saying is that I find just the fact that thousands of people are out there day after day is indicative of a willingness of people to actually get up off the couch and do something that I have seen missing through the vast majority of issues causing angst in the population over the last 10 – 20 years. To me, it’s a good sign, even though I likely have no more in common with any of the protesters’ beliefs and ideologies than I do with Kimpost’s or CM’s. (Not baiting anyone, just trying to use examples that everyone here knows well enough to understand the thought I’m trying to convey.)

    As I was looking through Jim’s link I had “Bulls and Bears” on in the background, and one of the panel (don’t remember his name) said that these protests have more in common with the Tea Party protests than people are willing to see. He said that both uprisings came out of the government involving itself with bailouts. This is true in a twisted sort of logical way. The Tea Party opposes all bailouts, while the OWS protesters’ only semi-focused demand seems to be, “Don’t bailout banks and corporations, bail us out instead!” I identify strongly with Tea Party politics, so obviously I don’t agree with the latter message, but I do see a toe in the door that might lead to a more unifiable meme where those on both sides could benefit from the energy and momentum that is created when thousands of people get off their collective ass and start making demands of their government, rather than sitting at their keyboards bitching and moaning about what’s wrong with this country to other bitchers and moaners who don’t matter a wit in fixing the things that everyone’s bitchin’ and moanin’ about!

    Now, I understand that some of these people are paid protesters, or so it has been reported and/or surmised. I don’t believe the paid shills make up anywhere near a majority however. I kind of doubt their numbers are even very significant. I see the video on TV and YouTube, and though I definitely do see the dred locks and (literally) unwashed masses-types, I also see a lot of “regular” folk, dressed in typical American casual clothing, some old, most pretty young, just marching calmly down the street. They’re not trying to foment chaos. They’re not challenging the cops, daring them to arrest ‘em for the visual effect that will be used to foment more violence. They’re basically following the rules, while doing one of the things that has made America great for over two centuries now; peaceably assembling in protest of their government. These people can be reached, and should be, or at least an attempt to reach them should be made. They should not all be dismissed as dope-smokin’ hippies who haven’t taken showers in a week yada yada yada, because quite obviously, all them simply aren’t.

    Anyway, as counter-intuitive as it is for me, I am watching these protests by mostly hard leftists and wondering how we can combine our energies against this run-amok government, rather than treating each other as the opposite poles of magnets, ensuring that our energies are dispersed into thin air. Oh God, does that make me a moderate? Ugh.

    CC

    Thumb up 0

  24. AlexInCT

    No, dude. Everyone WANTS a loan. It’s my brother’s job to tell you that you can’t have one. Re-financing is at 4%. who wouldn’t want that but how do you even qualify, and who is going to give that rate to you?

    I am getting applications from dozens of banks & credit cards every week asking me to sign up, so I am not clear what the problem is. That’s ater I financed a year ago and got a 15 year at 3.65%. I am figuring I will hold out until that numbers drops to around 3.25 to take another look, but in the interim, I am making extra payments to finish that mortgage up in 10 years.

    The ones unable to get loans are the people that have already demonstrated they have neither discipline or aptitude to deserve the loan in the first place, or thy are thee poor shlobs that are unemployed and basically are screwed anyway.

    Now if you are talking about businesses looking for loans, then you might have a case. Those same Dodd/Frank rules have made it so hard to loan money that you have to prove you have the money to get it first, as I already mentioned.

    Thumb up 0

  25. AlexInCT

    I have always been amazed how many of the most hard core imbecilic anti-capitalist communist-wannabes, are kids of well off & oft hard working white people, have lived cushy lives, and have all the advantages of that same capitalist system they rail against affecting every damned aspect of their insignificant and miserable lives. Kind of like that asshole Moore that made a shit load of money making third rate movies about the evils of the very system that let him get stinking rich peddling lies about it. Fuck, the universe sure is a sarcastic place.

    Thumb up 0

  26. AlexInCT

    What I’m saying is that I find just the fact that thousands of people are out there day after day is indicative of a willingness of people to actually get up off the couch and do something that I have seen missing through the vast majority of issues causing angst in the population over the last 10 – 20 years.

    When you don’t have a job or don’t need to worry about food or clothing because your parents pay for you, and live a meaningless existence devoid of any purpose but year to pretend otherwise, it becomes incredibly easy to invent a noble cause to fight for and then to “get off the couch”. When you get paid to show up, as we already have had some documented cases show, it’s even easier to get off the couch. I would have more respect for people that actually where risking something by doing this stuff or actually had a noble cause and not the same old tired trite bullshit that killed and imprisoned a great majority of humanity during the last century.

    Thumb up 1

  27. Manwhore

    I commented before that the anger is misdirected, but there is no denying that something is rotten in Denmark when you have thousands of people protesting this relentlessly. I truly believe that these youths are angry that politics are filing them, but just hvent come to the conclusion that the world is in their hands yet.

    Thumb up 0

  28. Manwhore

    I do really enjoy reading from “rugged individualists” bemoaning school aged kids protesting the banks as “leftists” and wagging the finger with “if you can’t pay your loans” line. You do realize it was THE BANKS themselves that mortgaged bad home credit to within five trades of global collapse and THEN went to the white house begging for money, right?

    None of this behavior changed, and could happen again, and……It was THE BANKS that asked for the deregulation that made the collapse possible in the first place. I’m a little shocked to read all of these conservatives defending this.

    Thumb up 0

  29. Seattle Outcast

    You qualify for that 4% mortgage the old fashioned way – with income, equity, and a credit score. You know, like before the bubble when the feds didn’t force them to give loans to losers.

    Thumb up 1

  30. Section8

    He said that both uprisings came out of the government involving itself with bailouts. This is true in a twisted sort of logical way. The Tea Party opposes all bailouts, while the OWS protesters’ only semi-focused demand seems to be, “Don’t bailout banks and corporations, bail us out instead!”

    And this is where I have the problem with these protests.

    1) The bailouts happened nearly 3 years ago and these guys are just realizing this was a problem?

    2) The Tea Party was way ahead on this issue, but at the time the same people praising the protests now are for the most part the ones who said bitching about government bailouts was nuts/racist just a couple of years ago.

    3) Like you said, it’s not bailouts = bad, it’s bail me = good. The only problem is the banks were required to pay back their loans to keep them afloat, whereas these folks just want forgiveness for whatever loan they got themselves into. Who pays for this then with a guaranteed zero repayment? Our nearly bankrupt government?

    So why this new found protest of crony capitalism? Because the Tea Party worked, and basically this is the left’s answer to it. I’ll give them credit for learning after they figured out crying racist all day doesn’t work anymore, but there is no sincerity here. They should have been bitching much sooner, and protesting the sources who gave the money to Wall Street in the first place, and not now saying they need their own personal bailout.

    I think bad banks should have been allowed to sink, or dismantled in an organized fashion (if that would have involved government so be it), I said it hear years ago, but that’s already been a discussion topic for all Americans for years. Where were these people then?

    Thumb up 1

  31. Mississippi Yankee

    Shocking Video: Frances Fox Piven and Fellow Professors Indoctrinating College Students at CUNY To Get Involved and Be Ready Violent Streets Battles and Breaking Down Capitalism.

    Marxist Mother Duck, Frances Fox Piven interviewed at ‘Occupy Wall Street’

    Frances Fox Piven. Many of you know about her (The Cloward-Piven Strategy) via the Discover the Newworks site. Watching her in action in an American classroom, as can above. is chilling. I have a better understanding now why the left was so anxious to defame and denounce J.Edgar Hoover’s FBI and Sen. Joe McCarthy. -Curmudgeonly and Skeptical-

    Maybe y’all need to stop floating down that river in Egypt.

    Thumb up 0

  32. Section8

    I have the feeling the left will be showing their true colors with these protests as they grow, and I have no doubt they’ll get violent. They probably figure every protest ends up violent, that’s why they were hoping and wishing the Tea Party protests would get violent. Of course in this case they’ll claim it’s all justified. Anyhow, you won’t hear any condemnation of this kind of talk from the dissenters who really, really do love this country that are currently running the WH, and from our Minority leader of the House, even though she stated how scary things were when the Tea Party was protesting.

    I hate to say it but our country is finished anyhow. The group of people who would rather shit on our customs and traditions and long held economic systems has just become too large. It doesn’t take a majority of shitty apples to fuck up everything. It just takes enough.

    Thumb up 1

  33. Section8

    Actually It was Merrill Lynch that gave them the most headache. It was also a deal the the government pushed on them after they tried to back out when they realized how bad things really were.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/23/AR2009042302461.html

    Now I’m in no way of supporting bad banks, but I think it’s appalling the government would force deals as well. And then forget they were ever part of the problem, but that’s how government works time and time again.

    Thumb up 1

  34. Section8

    He also talks about the benefits of absolving all these graduates from the school debt, how they would have all this free money to stimulate the economy by buying things, figures, these pampered underachievers could be even more pampered by surrounding themselves with even more luxuries.

    I’m all for it. These kids should go back to the school where they got their education and state it isn’t working out and demand their money back. Do sit ins or whatever. That way these professors that spend their time talking about how students should go out and protest about how they are treated unfairly can actually show they’re willing to take a hit as they continue to be part of a system that over charges and under delivers on a service to the kids of this country.

    Thumb up 3

  35. Hal_10000 *

    CC, I’m starting to warm a little bit too. Reason had some first-hand coverage and it reminded me, a little bit of the Tea Parties in that the media is forcing this into a narrative they can understand.

    I’m not saying I agree with them or that there isn’t a rent-a-mob leftist tone. But I do think that just as the Tea Parties sprang up in response to disillusionment with the GOP, this is springing a little bit out of disillusionment with with he Democrats.

    I mean, LGF was having a conniption because a lot of OWS people like Ron Paul! That can’t be all bad.

    Thumb up 0

  36. HARLEY

    The big difference here between the Tea parties and this groups is personal responsibility.
    The Tea Party was about getting the government out of our pocketbook and our lives, while this group, is about MORE government in our pocket book and lives. That bothers me a great deal, and HAL, if this group is disillusioned with the current DEMs, then i shudder at the thought of what they really want given ow far left many of the current administrations policy’s are. Another HUGE difference is temperament, the vast, vast majority of the Tea party rallies have been very polite sedate and respectful, these, not so much so.

    The AP stories that i have read talked a lot about the diversity in race on this too, and when viewing the pictures and video, and given that this is New York, there are a very few non-white face the crowd, at least until the Labor unions threw in.

    The organizing of this was not on the fly,and not a product of grassroots spontaneous creation. SEIU, AFL/CIO , soros ACORN and a menagire of other leftist groups have been organizing for months for this. The more violent types are in the wings and it is only a mater of time, before we see the darkest side of this movement.

    speaking of which
    http://weaselzippers.us/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/OWS-Shit.jpg

    Thumb up 2

  37. Hal_10000 *

    That’s the problem, Harley. The media portrayal is not exactly accurate. Think about how the media has portrayed the Tea Parties vs. how the Tea Parties are.

    http://erratasec.blogspot.com/2011/10/independent-reporting-of.html

    I’m not agreeing with them at all. But I do understand the anger. I”ll have a post up soon on my thoughts about The Big Short. It’s disgraceful how WS was bailed out with no consequences — either in TARP or in Dodd-Frank.

    Thumb up 0

  38. CzarChasm

    I’m sorry guys (except Hal, who sees it for what it is), but a lot of y’all are being fed a meme about what these protests are intended to be, and you’re falling for it. Yes, some of it is left-wing twaddle. Some of it is rent-a-mob. Some of it promotes programs and issues that no conservative, or even many moderates, would consider either healthy for our economy or constitutional. I get the knocks on that part of it, but the problem is, this thing is so unfocused and so diverse in the participation it attracts, that to couch it as promulgating just those leftist things is to ignore an energy level being directed at mostly-conservative ideals, and that is energy that conservatives can’t afford to waste or alienate.

    Take for instance this young man. He says some things that I know will turn some of you off, like one short statement about electing Ron Paul, but listen to his grasp of economic issues, the Federal Reserve, fiat money, states’ rights, quantitative easing, bailouts, and corporate accountability. Listen for the reaction of the crowd around him. Any booing? Any confrontations? Any purposefully provocative statements trying to entice cops into violent confrontation? Is this kid more conservative than leftist, or the other way around?

    There is useful energy that too many of us are dismissing as being wholly leftist. Where did we get that meme from? Certainly not from the people making speeches on the streets of NYC like the guy in the video. We’re being sold a bill of goods by the media for the express purpose of keeping us divided along, not ideological lines, but party lines. All of the participants of these protests are being lauded by the media as being leftist, and therefore, worthy of their praise and coverage, two things they denied the Tea Parties, and we’re eating it up. To our own detriment, I might add. You think that kid making that soap-box speech is going to vote for Obama? Are any of the people paying attention to what he says going to vote for Obama? Do they support the ever-increasing, centralized nature of the .fedgov that Obama works day and night to accelerate and solidify? I don’t see it. Rather, I see the establishment media and Democrat Party combining to steal the thunder of this uprising just like the establishment Republican Party tried to co-opt the Tea Party Movement.

    If you care about how I started seeing things as differently as even the most conservative amongst here do, here it is. I am an Oath Keeper. They have been at the forefront of trying to realistically identify who the people are that are “getting up off the couch” to participate, and the idea that those whose pet-issues closely align with constitutional precepts should have their energy redirected and harnessed to the benefit of conservative efforts came to me from them as I followed their coverage of the events. Below is an excerpt of an announcement made to the membership two days ago that Oath Keepers was going to “Occupy the Occupation.”

    We have had numerous reports from our people who have attended some of these rallies, from Occupy Seattle to Occupy Los Angeles to Occupy Boston. Our reports indicate that many of the youth showing up at these events are people who have been suddenly awakened to the realization that this nation is in serious trouble. Many are frightened, more are angry, and most are confused. Oath Keepers notes that certain forces (socialists and Marxists) are attempting to co-opt their awakening by pointing a finger at Wall Street and using the very real and well documented corruption there, which is certainly obvious to all, to attack “capitalism”. They are using the sins of corporatism, a.ka. crony capitalism, to attach the ideal of a free market and economic freedom in general, in order to persuade our youth that socialism (a soft form of communism) is to be preferred over the madhouse tactics of berserk corporate America, or, “Wall Street”. They are presenting them a false choice between fascism (which is the proper name for a marriage between big government and big business) and Marxism, while totally ignoring the free market and sound money that our Constitutional Republic is supposed to have.

    This is a lie being sold to our nation’s youth. Oath Keepers intends to redirect that lie back to the truth, which is the fact that the Federal Reserve is at the heart of the problem and without the Fed the bad boys of Wall Street could not do so much damage to our country.

    Therefore, Oath Keepers sees good reason to stand in the streets with these awakening souls and protect their right to free speech, to peacefully assemble, and to redress their grievances to their government, as the Constitution prescribes for all Americans. That is one thing. Another facet of our initiative is to use these public gatherings to reach and teach many who now hunger for the truth – we can show them how the Constitution will protect them better than an oversized, bloated Federal behemoth hell-bent on controlling every aspect of each citizen’s life.

    Rah-F’n-rah is what I say.

    CC

    Thumb up 0

  39. richtaylor365

    The fact that many different types of people from different walks of life attend rallies like these for many different reasons, this is not at all surprising. Having been to about a dozen anti war rallies over the years it’s clear that not all those attending had the same agenda. Some guys showed up to pick up chicks (they heard those radical women are banshees in bed), others are there to score drugs, some for the free food (code Pink and ANSWER always had food booths), and still others because it was a nice day and they needed an excuse to skip class. Sure, this has been going on for a few weeks now, but that does not mean those same people have been there every day.
    Yes, there is a socialist element present, along with labor, ACORN, and all the other fringe groups, Ron Paulites, greenies, and those big government types that want their debts forgiven. But there are also well educated articulate kids who are dissatisfied with their job prospects. Sure, we feel their pain, it sucks to be unemployed and unsure about your future. So saying that they have legitimate beefs, some do, but I hope they exhibit a little circumspection and connect the dots, the Obama dots (he has after all been in office 3 years, right?) and maybe after some reflection they will see that their Messiah (the one that 95% of these people will vote for yet again) has his dirty fingerprints all over their plight.

    Whether they have a coherent message, not these people.

    Thumb up 0

  40. HARLEY

    But there are also well educated articulate kids who are dissatisfied with their job prospects. Sure, we feel their pain, it sucks to be unemployed and unsure about your future. So saying that they have legitimate beefs, some do, but I hope they exhibit a little circumspection and connect the dots, the Obama dots (he has after all been in office 3 years, right?) and maybe after some reflection they will see that their Messiah (the one that 95% of these people will vote for yet again) has his dirty fingerprints all over their plight.

    And maybe they can look around as see the people that they are associating with and decide, that maybe this is not the kind of group i want to be pushing a agenda with.

    After all the Tea Party were violent racist threatening and spitting on people, and any one should been ashamed to associate with them, right?

    Thumb up 0

  41. richtaylor365

    This morning I saw this, which bolsters my earlier comment from last night:

    The Occupy Wall Street protest has drawn an unwelcome crowd of freeloaders who joined the movement for the sex, drugs and free food — and they are blending right in.

    The opportunists — ranging from addicts in need of a meal to well-off teens looking to hook up — have in some cases taken up residence in the demonstrators’ makeshift village in Zuccotti Park, upsetting the movement’s organizers.

    “Most of the kids are trust-fund babies. They don’t need to be here,” said Andre, 40, an activist. “I’ve seen some making out, having sex. It doesn’t look good.”

    Thumb up 1

  42. AlexInCT

    I do really enjoy reading from “rugged individualists” bemoaning school aged kids protesting the banks as “leftists” and wagging the finger with “if you can’t pay your loans” line.

    What the fuck do you call idiots that make bad choices and then decide someone else should pay for it? I don’t know about you, but people managed to go to school and pay off those loans before. if your point is that school now costs too much, then you make my point for me in spades: if the cost far, far exceeds any benefit, then only idiots go for that. anyone that pays more than 30K for a liberal arts education, deserves the penalty of the loans.

    You do realize it was THE BANKS themselves that mortgaged bad home credit to within five trades of global collapse and THEN went to the white house begging for money, right?

    You insist on doubling down on stupid don’t you? The banks, like evil Wall Street, only do what the political class allows them to or tells them to. Kudos for not mentioning the Tri-Lateral commission or the Illuminati yet in your crazy rants, though.

    None of this behavior changed, and could happen again,

    LOFL! Did you miss my explanation of what happened where I pointed out that the same politicians that pushed the things that caused the problem in the first place, where the ones to then write us that 2000 page tome which did nothing to address the underlying problem: liberals trying to ignore the rules of economics to social engineer society? Seriously, is this some kind of parody you are doing of a leftist defending their shit and deflecting blame? I am not getting it.

    and……It was THE BANKS that asked for the deregulation that made the collapse possible in the first place.

    Really? Are you simply ignoring the facts I post and making up your own shit? What deregulation are you talking about please? Because the problem wasn’t a lack of rules but the fact that government passed rules forcing banks to make bad risk loans – that social engineering the economy shit I mentioned before – then to get them to go along with their brave new world, when most of them kept trying to skirt the insane regulation, they told them they guaranteed them bailouts with tax payer money AND a whole trading scheme to make the shit sandwiches look palatable.

    Fuck if someone tells you that you have to cut do something you know that’s insane and simply unworkable, forcing you to do it by using the power of big government, do you just go along, or do you seek protection for yourself? The only people we need to blame for this are the politicians. Without them trying to reengineer society to the left’s liking, we would not have had this problem.

    I’m a little shocked to read all of these conservatives defending this.

    I am a little shocked that you think you are a conservative when you blame banks for what the political class did. I am even more shocked to then see you double down and blame banks yet again for politicians doing more of the same and leaving the same fundamental issues that caused the problem intact while drastically increasing the influence of the political class over the lending institutions and the regulation. It’s not as if it is very hard to understand that more ridiculously bad laws on top of already horrible laws is not going to solve anything, but it is kind of crazy to hear someone that claims to be conservative repeating the liberal talking points and badmouthing conservatives that don’t fall for them.

    Whatever your beef is with banks, it’s clouding your judgement.

    Thumb up 2

  43. Jim

    In regards to the media meme, a lot of my information has come from people who have personally been on the ground at these events and the fact that my wife and I drove by the people camped out in Saint Louis. For the most part, I’m seeing a lot of useful idiots being manipulated into action by anger they aren’t getting their piece of the pie, not by useful energy directed towards improving the country as a whole. Maybe that’s just the areas I have seen, but I am not sure the media bent is as pronounced as it might seem to be.
    I agree that dismissing large groups of people out of hand is idiotic. But I’m not ready to defend this as an intelligent movement created solely as a groundswell in response to the Bail-outs. I think it is preying on the hardship of the times and being self-fed by the class warfare mentality. That is a dangerous situation, putting that much anger into that small an area. But yes, these people need to be courted and we need to understand where they are coming from (the people who actually know why the hell they are there, which, in StL, is essentially zero.) Check out http://www.sharpelbowsstl.blogspot.com to see some interviews with the saint louis people by a citizen journalist.

    Thumb up 1

  44. CM

    From your piece:

    Bloomberg said he has “no idea” how much longer the Wall Street demonstration will last. “I think part of it has probably to do with the weather,” he said.

    Eventually we’ll all be able to protest all year round….. about the effects of AGW!

    Thumb up 0

  45. Hal_10000 *

    Latest is that they refuse to let John Lewis speak in Occupy Atlanta because he wasn’t on the agenda. I’m wondering if these people are descendants of the People’s Front of Judea.

    Thumb up 0

  46. Manwhore

    What the fuck do you call idiots that make bad choices and then decide someone else should pay for it? I don’t know about you, but people managed to go to school and pay off those loans before. if your point is that school now costs too much, then you make my point for me in spades: if the cost far, far exceeds any benefit, then only idiots go for that. anyone that pays more than 30K for a liberal arts education, deserves the penalty of the loans.

    You do realize it was THE BANKS themselves that mortgaged bad home credit to within five trades of global collapse and THEN went to the white house begging for money, right?

    You insist on doubling down on stupid don’t you? The banks, like evil Wall Street, only do what the political class allows them to or tells them to. Kudos for not mentioning the Tri-Lateral commission or the Illuminati yet in your crazy rants, though.

    None of this behavior changed, and could happen again,

    LOFL! Did you miss my explanation of what happened where I pointed out that the same politicians that pushed the things that caused the problem in the first place, where the ones to then write us that 2000 page tome which did nothing to address the underlying problem: liberals trying to ignore the rules of economics to social engineer society? Seriously, is this some kind of parody you are doing of a leftist defending their shit and deflecting blame? I am not getting it.

    and……It was THE BANKS that asked for the deregulation that made the collapse possible in the first place.

    Really? Are you simply ignoring the facts I post and making up your own shit? What deregulation are you talking about please? Because the problem wasn’t a lack of rules but the fact that government passed rules forcing banks to make bad risk loans – that social engineering the economy shit I mentioned before – then to get them to go along with their brave new world, when most of them kept trying to skirt the insane regulation, they told them they guaranteed them bailouts with tax payer money AND a whole trading scheme to make the shit sandwiches look palatable.

    Fuck if someone tells you that you have to cut do something you know that’s insane and simply unworkable, forcing you to do it by using the power of big government, do you just go along, or do you seek protection for yourself? The only people we need to blame for this are the politicians. Without them trying to reengineer society to the left’s liking, we would not have had this problem.

    I’m a little shocked to read all of these conservatives defending this.

    I am a little shocked that you think you are a conservative when you blame banks for what the political class did. I am even more shocked to then see you double down and blame banks yet again for politicians doing more of the same and leaving the same fundamental issues that caused the problem intact while drastically increasing the influence of the political class over the lending institutions and the regulation. It’s not as if it is very hard to understand that more ridiculously bad laws on top of already horrible laws is not going to solve anything, but it is kind of crazy to hear someone that claims to be conservative repeating the liberal talking points and badmouthing conservatives that don’t fall for them.

    Whatever your beef is with banks, it’s clouding your judgement.

    What is interesting is there was no opportunity to respond to you, so, I had to copy this post and paste in my rebuttal..

    1.) You are an idiot. There is no doubt about it.I can’t argue with someone that can’t even understand the current events that are going on.

    2.) You are a fossil: If I need to talk to my father about using phones to connect to people, I may hit up this blog. You are are a “get off my lawn” old school poster that has no grasp on the world the way it is. Your rebutttals proved to me that I was barking up the wrong tree. You show your age and the blog’s age with your responses.

    3.) Your grasp of financial issues, or corporation’s motivations is juvenile, at best. You’re a moron. You must get your financial outlook from the Kardashians, because you have no clue what the average young American is up against.

    Arguing with someone like you is futile. You are a claptrap of whatever you hear on drudge, and a detriment to critical thinking. You have no ability to separate yourself from the partisan side you have chosen, and really show your age with the “get off my lawn” style of writing that you do.

    There are thousands of people protesting right now. C’mon, at some point, you old people are going to have to realize that we don’t live in your antiquated world. (BTW, I am 35), I don’t agree with this status quo, either.

    LOFL, indeed. Old man blog.

    Thumb up 0

  47. Mississippi Yankee

    As the protest on Wall Street enters its fourth week, police officers are keeping their posts around the perimeter of the park at the center of it all. And with no end in sight, the cost of constant police surveillance will continue to rise at a time when Mayor Michael Bloomberg has ordered citywide budget cuts.

    The New York Police Department already has spent $1.9 million, mostly in overtime pay, to patrol the area near Zuccotti Park, where hundreds of protesters have camped out for several weeks. Though cold weather is on the way in, protesters don’t plan on leaving anytime soon. They’re prepared to stay put for the long haul…

    Meanwhile………….

    …As of 2:36 p.m. ET, the Dow Jones Industrial Average soared 276.10 points, or 2.49%, to 11379.06, the Standard & Poor’s 500 jumped 33.66 points, or 2.91%, to 1188.96 and the Nasdaq Composite leaped 75.75 points, or 3.06%, to 2555.12. The FOX 50 gained 24.01 points, or 2.85%, to 867.88…

    Shamelessly stolen from SondraK

    Thumb up 0

  48. Jim

    Allow me to break this down (because he’s too stupid to read your whole response):

    1. You are wrong.
    2. You are wrong because you are stupid.
    3. I don’t have to address any of your points, because you are wrong. And stupid. And stupidly wrong.
    4. I bring up no facts of my own because you are too stupid to understand them. It’s not that I don’t have any facts to argue, no, it is solely based upon your wrongess. And stupidity.
    5. Because you are too stupid, I win. Even if I don’t actually win, I still win, because you are stupid. And old.

    I think that about sums it up.

    Thumb up 2

  49. AlexInCT

    1.) You are an idiot. There is no doubt about it.I can’t argue with someone that can’t even understand the current events that are going on.

    I now see why most people treat you the way they do. Count me in that group now too.

    2.) You are a fossil: If I need to talk to my father about using phones to connect to people, I may hit up this blog. You are are a “get off my lawn” old school poster that has no grasp on the world the way it is. Your rebutttals proved to me that I was barking up the wrong tree. You show your age and the blog’s age with your responses.

    You are a douchbag that resorts to personal attacks, after your argument is destroyed with facts & logic, and you call me a fossil? Even worse, you think that personally attacking me with this lame attempt at pretending age somehow makes the nonsense you say more pertinent, makes you look like anything but dumber? Here is a real challenge for you: provide facts that disprove anything I said. It is clear to me you drank the left’s cool-aid deeply, but other than that, everything you have said on this topic has been bullshit.

    The banks would not have needed any bailouts if government had not made them do bad things. I for one would have preferred that they had not been bailed out in either case, so no other financial institution would ever again have gone along with the fucking idiots that want to social engineer, but the crooks in charge fooled enough people to get that anyway. Then they fooled them yet again to the tune of several trillion more in wasted social engineering shit. Maybe you aren’t clever enough to put two & two together and figure out who is screwing us, but the grown ups are able to do just that.

    3.) Your grasp of financial issues, or corporation’s motivations is juvenile, at best. You’re a moron. You must get your financial outlook from the Kardashians, because you have no clue what the average young American is up against.

    Says the wanna-be that has no clue what’s really going on? Heh, What’s next CM agreeing with you to boost your “stupid cred level” up? Never mind. He already did.

    Arguing with someone like you is futile.

    The problem might be with me providing facts and you being left to name calling?

    You are a claptrap of whatever you hear on drudge, and a detriment to critical thinking. You have no ability to separate yourself from the partisan side you have chosen, and really show your age with the “get off my lawn” style of writing that you do.

    Facts & logic are not bound to ideology. Did muirgeo1 hijack your ID? Because you sound like he did.

    There are thousands of people protesting right now.

    WTF is that supposed to mean other than there are thousands of idiots or people trying to again get something for free? If there are thousands of people telling us the world is flat, that still doesn’t make it so. Fuck, we had millions vote for Hopey-CHangey, and the anti-Bush, telling us that we finally got the second coming and all that. How well did that work out? Are you one of these consensus guys? The only way you continue to ignore the facts and attack the person and the logic IMO is, espcially when you claim to be a conservative while at it, if you have some skin in this game yourself.

    C’mon, at some point, you old people are going to have to realize that we don’t live in your antiquated world. (BTW, I am 35), I don’t agree with this status quo, either.

    We old people? Hah, what a joke. Here is some advice: if you don’t like banks, for whatever reason, don’t use them.

    And I should also point out that for someone claiming to be a conservative you sure as hell sound like the usual Marxist asshole, and then an immature one at that. It is not a coincidence that when you hear some asshole talk about how fed up they are with the “status quo”, those of us that are better informed and not wet behind the ears feel like they have already heard this nonsense. Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, and a slew of the same, played this very card to fool the masses so they could replace the power centers. How well did that work out?

    What’s your stake in this scam anyway? You took on too much fucking debt and want someone else to pay it off for you now? You pissed at the bank for telling you to pay what you owe? Looking for another handout? Please stop insulting conservatives by pretending to be one, OK?

    EDIT-UPDATE:

    What is interesting is there was no opportunity to respond to you, so, I had to copy this post and paste in my rebuttal..

    I missed that beauty you soft served. For someone so “young and hip” and making fun of us “old people”, I find it interesting that you where unable to figure out that you could respond by scrolling up to the first “Reply” option, or do exactly what you did: start another post at the bottom. Like Ronald Reagan told one of the buffoons making fun of the older people: we invented all that shit so you could use it and think that made you the smarter one.

    Thumb up 3

  50. Manwhore

    You are a douchbag that resorts to personal attacks, after your argument is destroyed with facts & logic, and you call me a fossil? Even worse, you think that personally attacking me with this lame attempt at pretending age somehow makes the nonsense you say more pertinent, makes you look like anything but dumber? Here is a real challenge for you: provide facts that disprove anything I said. It is clear to me you drank the left’s cool-aid deeply, but other than that, everything you have said on this topic has been bullshit.

    Actually, no. The burden of proof is on to prove you have any fucking clue about what you speak, or are you just a claptrap moron who switches off rush and runs over to post on RT? Your bank observations are juvenile, at best. Your political observations might as well be carved out of stone they are so arcane, and your idiocy knows no bounds.

    You’ve been challenged in even other threads to stop talking your shit and actually prove the chunkier that you spew. Can you do it? I highly doubt it. You are at best a linker, and not a thinker, and if you now join a crowd that doesn’t like me, I wear it with honor.

    Thumb up 0

  51. Poosh

    Um, forgive my ignorance, but isn’t it a good, sensible thing, for a bank to sit on a pile of money? In case like, some sort of financial crisis comes along or some such.

    Thumb up 1