The Davis Case

Should Troy Davis be executed? That’s the question the Supreme Court is pondering right now. He was supposed to be executed tonight for a 1989 murder of a cop. But doubts have been raised about his guilt.

You can read William Sessions op-ed here for the details. The short story is that Davis was convicted without direct physical evidence based mostly on the testimony of witnesses, most of whom have since recanted and said they were pressured by police into their testimony.

Having followed the case over the last few days, I have to throw my hands up. I think it’s quite likely that he’s guilty; but I don’t think the case has been proven enough for the irrevocable punishment of execution. This isn’t a case like Mumia Abu Jamal or even Robin Carter, where his supporters are glossing over inconvenient damning evidence. There are serious problems here.

Keep him in jail, sure. But I would prefer not to have another Cameron Todd Willingham on our hands.

Update: If you ever need any example of why I could never be a liberal, I give you Michael Moore, who tweeted tonight that Obama should send federal troops into Georgia to stop the execution. What a dipshit.

Update: Davis was executed tonight. Here is a profile of the officer he was convicted of killing.

Comments are closed.

  1. HARLEY

    ughm? wasn’t he also convicted of shooting up a party or something earlier that day? The guns used at that shooting was id’ed as the gun used in the officer shooting?

    Its a very tenuous case agianst him, but i do notice the anti execution forces are not all hot and bothered by that guy in Texas that was convicted of dragging a man to death behind his truck.

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  2. Seattle Outcast

    The police coercing testimony, perjuring themselves, and faking evidence? Why, who ever heard of such a thing…….not happening routinely….?

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  3. CM

    I find the whole death-penalty thing immoral and rather sickening, so I’m way too biased to provide anything objective about specific cases. Particularly one where there now looks to be inadequate evidence to consider the guilty finding safe, let alone the sentence, let alone carrying it out.

    This is one of those situations where we might as well be living on different planets.

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  4. Mississippi Yankee

    I find the whole death-penalty thing immoral and rather sickening, so I’m way too biased to provide anything objective about specific cases.

    But yet…

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  5. West Virginia Rebel

    This is part of the problem with some states that are serious about the death penalty, like, say, Texas-and I believe that Brewer deserved to be removed from this world.

    This case aside, it seems that in our system the burden is increasingly on the defendant to prove their innocence. The last time I checked, it was the state’s job to prove their guilt because of that whole presumed innocent thing.

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  6. CM

    Yep, I noticed that as I wrote it.
    I guess my moral objections to the death penalty are separate from, and in addition to, my objections in terms of errors in the system and unsafe verdicts. If the question is “should this guy be put to death” then I’d likely say no irrespective of the facts.

    If you ever need any example of why I could never be a liberal, I give you Michael Moore

    I agree, he’s an excellent advert to be something other than what he is.

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  7. Mississippi Yankee

    First of all, the state presented THIRTY FUCKING FOUR witnesses against Davis. Of those NINE recanted PART of their testimony.

    Only two of the seven (remaining) alleged “recantations” (out of 34 witnesses) actually recanted anything of value — and those two affidavits were discounted by the court because Davis refused to allow the affiants to testify at the post-trial evidentiary hearing, even though one was seated right outside the courtroom, waiting to appear.

    The court specifically warned Davis that his refusal to call his only two genuinely recanting witnesses would make their affidavits worthless. But Davis still refused to call them — suggesting, as the court said, that their lawyer-drafted affidavits would not have held up under cross-examination.

    One alleged recantation, from the vagrant’s girlfriend (since deceased), wasn’t a recantation at all, but rather reiterated all relevant parts of her trial testimony, which included a direct identification of Davis as the shooter.

    Say what you will about St. Ann but the left has never been able to dispute her FACTS in any of her articles.

    COP-KILLER IS MEDIA’S LATEST BABY SEAL

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  8. Hal_10000 *

    Jesus, you’re quoting Mann Coulter? She is one of the worst at simply making shit up as she goes. Just to cite one issue, she claims there is no evidence an innocent person has ever been executed; there are at least a dozen cases the Innocence Project has identified as likely innocent executions and that likely an underestimate since death penalty cases are notorious for incompetent council. Nearly a hundred death row inmates have been exonerate over the last few decades and those are mostly the ones who were lucky enough to have DNA evidence preserved. Here’s is a case where a man confessed to killing two girls and was later shown to be innocent. (http://tinyurl.com/43lqza9).

    That’s just off the top of my head. I’m sure Balko or someone will debunk everything else she said. Coulter doesn’t care for facts; she’s a side-show freak biting the heads off chickens, saying whatever she thinks will sell more books.

    There’s been a lot of BS pushback on this. Erickson — another factually challenged blogger — was claiming that they found the cops’ blood on Davis’ pants. This is not true. The cops found a substance they thought might be blood but it was never tested to show if it was blood or whose blood it was.

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  9. InsipiD

    You might not like Ann Coulter, but she’s right. The evidence for his innocence is far from compelling. Keep in mind that the original jury only deliberated about two hours about his guilt, and took seven more to assign his death sentence. Do you think now that someone remembers something better now than they did 20 years ago? I can understand if they feel a little guilty about placing testimony that led to someone’s death, but it’s a big stretch to say that suddenly they remember particulars that they didn’t in court. The reality of it is that Davis, beyond a reasonable doubt, shot someone in anger while leaving a party earlier that night and then shot a police officer because he was afraid he’d be connected to the earlier non-fatal shooting. This wasn’t a lynching, and this isn’t a civil rights battle. A violent, hot-tempered murderer probably died last night, no matter what the unwashed protesters are saying. They’ve had over twenty years and the ear of several courts and governors, none of which have overturned the conviction.

    This is like Tookie Williams and Mumia Abu-Jamal. Perhaps more people would be sympathetic to the cause if they didn’t gather around some really guilty people. My personal favorite line is that Jamal isn’t guilty, but he’d have been justified if he had killed the cop. It’s like OJ’s “If I Did It.” You can’t say “I didn’t kill him, and it was self-defense.”

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  10. Kimpost

    The evidence for his innocence is far from compelling.

    I think it should be the other way around. Unless you are ridiculously certain of guilt, the death penalty should be out. Ideally there should be multiple and credible witnesses, DNA, a murder weapon, finger prints, video tape and a confession. Anything much short of that, should lead one to think real long and hard before administering the ultimate punishment.

    In essence, I pretty much think that capital punishment should be out regardless. Until humans are available to construct a 100 % infallible justice system (which will never happen), then we shouldn’t kill people. Life without parole should do fine as a replacement. If it isn’t enough for some, then tough. I’m sure the death penalty isn’t enough either for others…

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  11. Poosh

    Ann Coulter said since 1950. As far as I know no one, who has been executed in the US, has actually been then found innocent. Controversy is not the same, all I seem to be finding – and I might be wrong – but all I am finding are “doubts were cast” over this or that, that’s not the same as an innocent being executed, not for a second. Though of course, that might well be the case, but as far as I can see, as Ann Coulter said, no one since 1950 has been executed then found innocent (unlike the UK). Being let out before you are executed is a different topic, some might argue that’s even evidence that the system works (I wouldn’t lol). There’s mumbo-jumbo about courts not caring once the ‘victim’ is executed, and short lists of ‘victims’ where some think they might have been innocent. That hardly amounts to sufficient evidence, and certainly cannot dismiss Ann Coulter’s claim.

    All the evidence that Ann Coulter makes ‘shit up’ has turned out to be made up. I assume she gets a few facts wrong as everyone does, but most attempts to claim she is a liar are actually the work of liars themselves. I’ve just read over this attempt to “dismiss” Ann Coulter’s writing on this shooting, and predictably the author failed to read the article carefully (freak out nation blog). Many simply do not understand her sense of humour which is far more British, I have to say, than American.

    But the death penalty should be far more refined or simply removed. I find it evil that a murderer should be kept alive by tax-payer money, immoral. However, it’s just as evil, more so, to execute an innocent man surely.

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  12. Poosh

    I pretty much think that capital punishment should be out regardless. Until humans are available to construct a 100 % infallible justice system (which will never happen), then we shouldn’t kill people.

    So true.

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  13. Hal_10000 *

    Tookie and Jamal were obviously guilty. I do agree that celebs tend to glom onto these cases without knowing their asses from their elbows. I mentioned the Jamal case above and the Carter case. The latter is what the Davis case reminds me the most of.

    But when you have former prosecutors, heads of the FBI and corrections officials on Davis’s side I tend to pay more attention.

    My response to Coulter has little to do with my not liking her and everything to do with the fact that she is either a pathological liar or someone who care what the truth is. Her claim that no innocent people have been executed is an example. As is her claim that Joe McCarthy never accused anyone who wasn’t guilt. Or her claim that there is zero physical evidence of evolution. Or any of the other things she says that are complete and utter garbage.

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  14. Poosh

    Could you give me a few names of a few innocent people executed in an american state since 1950, not a case where “doubts are cast”, or X and Y were no convinced, but it’s actually official in the manner of Tim Evans, where a miscarriage of justice has been found? The case of Timothy Evans is what largely led to the removal of the death penalty in the UK.

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  15. Jim

    On the one hand, I want to demand more due diligence in executing people. On the other, some of the people on death row are there for *20 years* during appeals etc. After a certain a mount of appeals, it stands to reason a certain threshold of evidence has been met. Even so, there are times I would be willing to concede a stay of execution for any case other than a continual admission of guilt in multiple murder/serial murder situations with hard physical evidence.
    As an aside, I always find these arguments interesting, especially considering the position some people take.

    Until humans are available to construct a 100 % infallible justice system (which will never happen), then we shouldn’t kill people.

    Let’s rephrase this to make it more interesting.

    Until humans are able to prove 100% that a fetus isn’t a human/soul (which will never happen), then we shouldn’t kill the unborn.

    We live in a society where a *convicted* person gets 20 years to fight their conviction, and it still isn’t enough “proof”, but people are completely willing to take it for granted that an unborn child is expendable, sometimes after 8 or 9 months gestation.

    This is one of those situations where we might as well be living on different planets.

    Indeed.

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  16. Kimpost

    It’s true that abortion is a moral question, just as the death penalty is to some (including me), but that wasn’t the argument I used here. I deliberately stuck with the justice system, which in my mind can’t be perfect. Innocent people charged with murder will occasionally get convicted. Hopefully it’s less than 1 in a 100, or even 1 in 1000, but still. It will eventually happen. We could minimize that of course, by reserving the death penalty to cases with a ridiculous amount of evidence, but frankly – what kind of justice system would that be? That would be one where two objectively identical crimes wouldn’t be treated the same, because one lacks a ridiculous amount of evidence. That would go against all of our traditional justice systems.

    When it comes to abortion (a separate topic) I understand how it is a moral question to you and to others. You believe that life begins at conception, and I might agree with that (as in some kind of life). But it’s clear to me that it isn’t a human life from day one. I think that it takes months for that to happen. But 8 or 9? “Abortion” that late should only be allowed to save the mother’s life.

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  17. CzarChasm

    My momma always taught me not to say anything about the dead unless you can say something good.

    Davis is dead. Good.

    I couldn’t help notice the disconnect between Kimpost’s stance on the death penalty and abortion either, but I have been warned that the latter is a third-rail type of issue around here, so I’ll just say I agree with Jim wholeheartedly.

    I didn’t follow the details of this case – at all. I kept hearing “many questions about his guilt” in the same breaths as I heard “20 years of appeals,” and then last night “breaking news” that SCOTUS had refused his final appeal just a little while before his scheduled execution, and color me a maniacal, bloodthirsty, vengeful hate-monger, but I couldn’t find it in me to get too worried about Davis’ case. Now I come here and read part of what Coulter had to say about the case, and the only rebuttals are against Coulter personally, not against her analysis of “problems” with the case. I’m not a huge Coulter fan either, but personal attacks against her do nothing to dissuade me from looking at what she had to say and conclude that, if true and reasonably accurate, Davis got what was coming to him. And since none of the Coulter-haters have bothered to mount a real rebuttal to her assertions, well, there ya go.

    As far as the death penalty in general goes, I’d be alright with either a law or a SCOTUS ruling that required compelling DNA evidence before it can be imposed in a given case. Until that happens though, an average appeals process of 17+ years seems an adequate bulwark against killing innocents to me. I couldn’t care any less what people in other countries think about America still having the death penalty on the table.

    CC

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  18. Seattle Outcast

    I don’t have any problem with putting down violent criminals like the rabid dogs they are, I have a problem with the corrupt “justice” system we have that allows, or even encourages, innocent people to be convicted of crimes that police and prosecutors know are innocent.

    Suppressing evidence, prosecutor misconduct, and judges in on the game of nod-nod, wink-wink, off to prison you go, need to be punished with such extreme measures that people will shit themselves thinking of getting caught.

    This isn’t just a problem for US courts – anyone that’s followed the Amanda Knox case can see that in Italy the problem is apparently even much worse.

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  19. Poosh

    Amanda Knox’s case is pretty much a slam dunk not guilty, literally insane.

    But with this case it seems to be a case of it was either man A or man B. One of them did it. Did we execute man A when man B did it? If Davis didn’t do it, then he failed to go to the police and inform them of what Cole had done, and was presently set up by his mate.

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  20. Kimpost

    I couldn’t care any less what people in other countries think about America still having the death penalty on the table.

    I’ve noticed, in other threads as well, that you don’t seem to particularly enjoy non-American input in general. Why is that?

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  21. Jim

    But it’s clear to me that it isn’t a human life from day one.

    And that’s my point. It was *clear* to 12 jurors that this man was guilty of murder and it was *clear* that the death penalty was the appropriate punishment. Yet that isn’t enough for many people. Yet, somehow, when they are *clear* that an unborn childr isn’t a *human* life, that should be enough for anyone. It’s a double standard of “proof” that doesn’t seem to jive. Especially considering the unborn are the ultimate in “innocent” life.
    Put simply, so many people want to err in favor of convicted criminals and want to err against the only truly innocent. It seems somewhat backwards.

    Edit: I just read Czar’s post about “third-rail topic”. My apologies. I tried to keep my post on topic. And personally, I find it difficult to separate the two issues given the *type* of arguments being used and how they are inter-related, but to avoid complete de-railing, this will be my last post with the “third-rail” topic unless it becomes exceedingly relevant. Happy to discuss with anyone via PM or what not, but will avoid doing so here.

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  22. Kimpost

    But do you need to put the two against each other? Even if I were totally wrong on abortion, what has that got to do with the death penalty?

    EDIT: I just saw your edit. Fine. :)

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  23. AlexInCT

    The fact that the police are not bastions of purity and some of them are downright shitheads doesn’t make the argument that any death penalty case where any doubt is raised suddenly invalidates the concept of the death penalty or the case valid, though. Unfortunately we are neither omniscient nor capable of reading thoughts or always figuring out exactly what happened. Even then I bet we would have people that would still kill because they value other people’s lives not a bit.

    Let me come clean and say that I am a believer in the death penalty. The people put to death never committed another fucking crime. That’s pretty final to me. I feel sad for innocents, but I feel society has already given the criminals, and especially those that do the most heinous things, a big enough pass, and I am far more concerned with the victims and the criminal suffering for what they have inflicted. The societies that did away with the death sentence also seem to now be doing away with life incarceration – that’s also too cruel now. In the mean time most of them have huge problems with crime of all kind. If this belief makes me “uncaring” or even “evil” in some people’s eyes, then though. I don’t care. Some people need killing. If they value the lives of others so lowly, I feel no obligation to defend theirs when they are about to get their just reward.

    But I am also for making sure that the concept of reasonable doubt is applied to the sentencing and conviction when such a high penalty is at stake. We need to make sure we are killing someone that is guilty. However, as others already pointed out, the doubt being used is slim to none IMO. This fucker did it. He needs to fry.

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  24. CzarChasm

    Jim, I owe you a clarification. When I say I was “warned,” I simply meant that I was informed that the topic would likely garner little to no support for an uncompromising pro-life position on this blog. I was not “warned” that it was a topic that wasn’t allowed here, just that if I was going to author posts about it, I’d probably be frustrated with the tenor and direction of the replies to it.

    I don’t disagree at all with anything you’ve said on the subject, or with you bringing it up in the context of juxtaposing against views on the death penalty. I believe the juxtaposition is warranted, and the inconsistencies in views between the two subjects is stark and undeniable. My point in mentioning the “warning” was that I intended to put the clamps on myself so as to avoid any off-topic arguments, not to put the clamps on your desire to discuss that topic to your heart’s content. Hope that clears that up. I have no objection at all to you pointing out hypocrisy wherever you find it, especially not against leftists! LOL

    CC

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  25. CzarChasm

    It’s really only about certain subjects Kimpost, mostly having to do with issues that are 100% American, like our laws on the death penalty, or what our Constitution means, stuff like that. I have nothing against non-Americans, I just dislike having to spend thousands upon thousands of words having to educate them about constitutional issues when a couple or three sentences to most Americans would suffice in stating a point in an understandable way. If the discussion is about international issues, such as the UN or NATO or what have you, I’m very interested in foreigner’s input. But if I make a post that specifically addresses a 100% American issue, and I have the foresight to ask politely for only American’s input about it to avoid all the teaching posts that will surely be needed to address foreigner’s unknowledgeable replies to it, I see no reason why that should not be respected. And the fact is in the context of this thread, America’s death penalty is a 100% American issue and doesn’t effect you or CM or any other non-American at all. But it wasn’t my thread, so I just noted that I don’t care what you think about it, and I don’t. That’s why.

    CC

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  26. Hal_10000 *

    Re: Amanda Knox. Theres nothing like watching the legal system in another country to remind of how, with all its warts, the US system is still pretty decent.

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  27. Xetrov

    While I’m for the death penalty, and support what happened in the following case I’m about to bring up…

    And the fact is in the context of this thread, America’s death penalty is a 100% American issue and doesn’t effect you or CM or any other non-American at all.

    Humberto Leal Garcia would disagree.

    Texas has executed a Mexican-born man after the US supreme court and the state’s governor, Rick Perry, spurned appeals from Barack Obama to spare the convicted murderer’s life in order to protect US interests abroad.

    By “Mexican-born” they mean “Illegal Alien”.

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  28. Poosh

    Yes, same with our (and your) free press and their ability to make politicians suffer for being corrupt. Brits and Americans can be proud of their free press, unlike many European countries.

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  29. AlexInCT

    Poosh I like Ann Coulter as much as the next guy, but frankly the arguments for why he was the one that did it are far more convincing that the crop of reasons we are now told should make us back off. At least to me.

    As I have said before: Wearing a badge doesn’t make members of any police force either infallible or grant them a halo, and I am well aware many of them are outright assholes willing to do a lot of bad shit. But if the defense for this guy is that the cops engaged in a massive conspiracy to frame him, and then pulled it off, it means they had to fool a lot more people than I am willing to think is ever possible. And I do not think for a second they could have gotten away with it considering the scrutiny involved unless the entire legal system was as rotten to the core as you can think of. So, while I usually do not hold the legal in high regard – I will never get a jury of my peers because my peers need to work to pay their bills and while jury duty is a great responsibility, these days, it all takes too long and becomes prohibitive – I am loath to think it could be that bad. We would be shooting people to sell their organs like they do in China.

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  30. Tool

    In essence, I pretty much think that capital punishment should be out regardless.

    Well Kimpost, in essence I think that pretty much anyone who is guilty of first degree murder without massive mitigating circumstances, should be executed. There is no reason that somebody should be able to purposefully and deliberately murder someone and have any right to still live, much less be cared for by society. How in gods name can you seriously be against executing someone who brutally guns down a police officer? I’ll never understand people who defend murderers right to stay alive. I will channel my sympathy and care for the victims family, not some shitbag who deserves a long drop off a short rope.

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  31. CzarChasm

    HAHA! Yeah, well OK, maybe that will serve as a deterrent to murdering foreign leftists coming here for a visit, legal or otherwise! LOL

    CC

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  32. CM

    It’s a nice convenient fallacy that being against killing killers somehow inherently means having sympathy for the perp and not victims.

    I find the concept of “killing people to show them that killing is wrong” to be inherently flawed.

    How in gods name can you seriously be against executing someone who brutally guns down a police officer?

    My step-brother is a cop and was recently brutally gunned-down. He survived thankfully but was seconds from death for a decent amount of time. No way would I want the guy who did it to be executed, even though he was recently found guilty. But that doesn’t mean I have sympathy for him and not my step-brother.

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  33. CM

    ;-)

    I think capital punishment is a legitimate topic for international discussion. Abortion is too. Just because my country doesn’t have capital punishment, doesn’t mean we don’t have opinions on it, or that our opinions are meaningless. It’s not as though we’re just posting “Stupid redneck American idiots” over and over again.

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  34. Kimpost

    It’s just a moral stance. I’m not saying that mine is superior to yours, it’s just how it is. I don’t think that society should be involved in judicial killings.

    Anyway, I haven’t made that argument here. My main concern here has been that I can’t stomach executing innocent people. I’m not saying that Troy Davies was such. I’m discussing it philosophically. Can a man made justice system ever be flawless? If not, then innocent people are bound to end up being penalized. It’s only logical that this would apply to death penalty cases too.

    I find it unacceptable, as well as unnecessary since life without parole should be sufficient justice for most.

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  35. Poosh

    Ann Coulter argued he was guilty. But the author of the other blog says that the evidence clearly is not water tight, he actually feels it was Cole who was the shooter. He presents the evidence and simply asks “what do you think?” however. He rejects any claims of police corruption I believe. I think it all balls down to Davis’s word against his mate (who told the police, in the first place, it was David). The shooter was either Davis or his mate.

    At any rate, he has 5 parts, and offers a great presentation of the evidence.

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  36. Poosh

    There was a home invasion this year I believe, in America, with a family, where the mother and daughter were raped then burned to death afterwards in their house. The father escaped. I believe the second guy was sentenced to death recently. It’s very hard to go “no” to the death penalty being used in that instance. In fact it certainly *feels* immoral to let the two murderers live.

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  37. CzarChasm

    I think capital punishment is a legitimate topic for international discussion. Abortion is too. Just because my country doesn’t have capital punishment, doesn’t mean we don’t have opinions on it, or that our opinions are meaningless.

    Neither topic of which did I suggest your opinion(s) were unwelcome or inappropriate in this thread. I just said I don’t care what your opinions are concerning those topics, and in the context of how I personally digest them, they most certainly are meaningless. Others are free to give to them whatever weight they think they’re worth.

    CC

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  38. CM

    That’s fine. It does come across as “American opinions are inherently more worthy even when nationality is irrelevant” but you probably don’t give a shit (and that would of course be internally consistent).

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  39. CzarChasm

    This may blow your mind CM, I know it blew mine, but I have to soak my foot in the tub with meds in it, so I took the laptop in the bathroom so I could read while I was soaking, and decided to take a dump before the soak. I actually was giving a shit when I read that post!!! LOL Man, that was weird.

    CC

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  40. Hal_10000 *

    The Petit Case. God, that was horrible. Two daughter and mother were raped, left tied to the beds while the house was burned. Dad barely escaped. In those cases — a horrible crime and clinching proof (videotape of them forcing the mom to take money out of an ATM), I am very much in favor of execution.

    Also, Komisarjevsky showed no remorse at all.

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  41. Tool

    It’s a nice convenient fallacy that being against killing killers somehow inherently means having sympathy for the perp and not victims.

    Wow, this argument just astounds me every time I hear it. Let me ask you this CM, since criminals who kidnap people bound them up and throw them in a room for weeks or even years at a time, when someone is arrested and sentenced to prison for kidnapping or unlawful imprisonment, I suppose the state is, “Kidnapping the Kidnappers” ? Oh I know if someone is a thief and the government pursues asset forfeiture, maybe the government is “thieving the thiefs”? By that asinine statement “killing the killers” you are refusing to draw a distinction between a state executing someone as retribution for their behavior and a criminal wantonly killing an individual for personal gain. Seriously, by that rationale governments shouldn’t punish criminals for anything because they have no higher moral authority than a common street thug. I really expected a less cliche and more developed argument from you CM. You are one of the left-leaning people here I respect most, and that is how you describe the death penalty? “Killing the Killers,” like there is no difference between a society granting 10-20 years of appeals to a criminal for a murder, and a street thug shooting a random police officer in the face without 3 seconds of deliberation?

    Another thing, its a nice convenient fallacy to believe, “he should just get life imprisonment without the possibility of parole,” let me clue you in, that rarely happens in most states. At least in Washington D.C. when somebody is convicted of first degree murder, they typically spend 15-20 years in prison, obtain a supervised release, then promptly assault/rob/kill more people within months.

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  42. CM

    What I mean is that it took a while to get him even close to stable once medical attention arrived. It wasn’t just a fleeting moment close to death. Anyway….

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  43. CzarChasm

    This is illustrative of why I don’t care about what non-Americans think about our laws. They think differently than we do. They have no understanding of how rare it is for a life-without-parole sentence to actually be served to completion, and really, even if/when it is, what’s the difference between putting someone to death as retribution for an unlawful killing and making them live in squalor in a 4 x 8 box 23 hours a day for the rest of their lives? They still die at the hands of the state, only minus a few hundred thousand to a few million dollars, depending on how old they are when convicted. There are just so many inconsistencies with the no-death-penalty crowd, especially foreign ones, that it just becomes like the static you hear on AM radio after the sun goes down, just little snippets of random voices mixed with white noise making it impossible to make heads nor tails out of any of it.

    Another couple of good posts Tool. Thanks for them.

    CC

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  44. CM

    and that is how you describe the death penalty?

    I really expected a less cliche and more developed argument

    No, that’s not even remotely how I “describe the death penalty”. That was specifically in response to your disingenous fallacy comment.

    I’ll never understand people who defend murderers right to stay alive. I will channel my sympathy and care for the victims family, not some shitbag who deserves a long drop off a short rope.

    You also seem to have confused that with another comment of mine:

    I find the concept of “killing people to show them that killing is wrong” to be inherently flawed.

    Nothing is as final and extreme as killing someone as a punishment. I don’t see how it’s comparable to prison. Or asset forfeiture.
    I think the death penalty is probably more about revenge. Sure, if my step-brother had died my immediate thought would be that the guy that did it has to die. But I’d like to think that it would be for a short period of time and that I’d recognise it as a visceral knee-jerk emotional reaction. I don’t want the society I live in to incoporate visceral knee-jerk emotional reactions as part of any justice policy.
    I’m fully aware that this is all just my opinion. Others have a different opinion because they start from a different place.

    “Killing the Killers,” like there is no difference between a society granting 10-20 years of appeals to a criminal for a murder, and a street thug shooting a random police officer in the face without 3 seconds of deliberation?

    Of course there is a difference. I think it makes it worse that the state does it so calmly and as part of some procedure, because it’s the result of a rational choice society has made. The street thug is likely exercising no rationality at all.

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  45. CM

    There are just so many inconsistencies with the no-death-penalty crowd, especially foreign ones, that it just becomes like the static you hear on AM radio after the sun goes down, just little snippets of random voices mixed with white noise making it impossible to make heads nor tails out of any of it.

    Right back at you.
    At the end of the day I think this comes back to a personal opinion, based on your starting point. If you don’t have a problem with the state taking someone’s life as a punishment, it opens up a whole world of potential. If you do have a problem, there isn’t any.

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  46. CzarChasm

    So this morning I was listening to the radio, Boortz to be specific, and he opened his show with a question to his producer that went something like this: “Belinda, did you know that there were two executions yesterday?” I’m thinking he’s setting up some kind of joke, but no, he was right, there were two executions yesterday.

    Lawrence Brewer was a white supremacist, a card-carrying member of the KKK. He and two friends beat James Byrd, a black man, and chained him to the bumper of their pickup truck, dragged him for a couple of miles, finally dumping his decapitated body in front of a black church and cemetery. This happened in 1998.

    Now, how many people remember the case of James Byrd’s murder? Probably everybody, maybe even the foreigners here. It got lots of attention, earning the media-moniker, “The James Byrd Dragging Death,” which never seemed like a good moniker to me because it depended on the listener having some knowledge of the case to know what it meant, but I digress….

    So anyway, Brewer was put to death last night too. He also died claiming his innocence….kind of. He admitted to his part in the beating, but said he wasn’t involved in tying Byrd up with chains and dragging him around. He wasn’t particularly repentant though. Even if he was though, and even if his claims of innocence for the killing were true, he would fall under the same theory of murder as the driver of the getaway car in a robbery where a victim inside got killed, and even though the driver never went inside, he can still be tried for capital murder, and I am fine with that. Another one bites the dust in Texas. Too bad, so sad, one down, one to go, as the third guy got life without parole (as if!).

    So who marched to save Brewer’s life? Where was the weeks-long media blitz trying to garner sympathy for the poor white trash whose upbringing was obviously so traumatic that he turned to the only thing he knew he was good at in adulthood; hate? (No, I know nothing of his upbringing – I’m juxtaposing the kind of attention that Davis, Mookie Williams and other black convicts get/got against Brewer’s nearly silent passing.) How many here knew Brewer got executed last night? Or maybe more to the point, how many knew a day or two before, or a week or two before, that it was scheduled for last night? I pay pretty close attention to the news, and I hadn’t heard a word about it before hearing it on Boortz this morning.

    I guess anyone who says that they’re against all capital punishment will be against Brewer’s state-imposed death too, and yeah, I recognize the consistency in that if it is indeed the case. But one can’t help but wonder what it means that Davis got so much attention, while Brewer got almost none. Does it not seem just a bit too politically correct to allow a white supremacist to be put to death in virtual obscurity, while a black man convicted of killing a cop gets gallons of ink for his case, mostly from the left and mostly from the usual suspects, black community agitators, the ACLU etc.? Can it legitimately be said that the inconsistency between how the two cases were covered boils down to only one issue; race?

    I don’t know, but I thought it an interesting comparison. What do you all think?

    CC

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  47. CzarChasm

    I don’t want the society I live in to incoporate visceral knee-jerk emotional reactions as part of any justice policy.

    And….

    I think it makes it worse that the state does it so calmly and as part of some procedure, because it’s the result of a rational choice society has made.

    Wow, from knee-jerk to rational choice in one move! That’s some impressive verbal gymnastics! It’s a great way to debate, cover all your bases, even though they completely contradict each other. I’d probably try that if it didn’t seem so…..umm….duplicitous.

    CC

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  48. Kimpost

    Eh, ok,.. it’s not like the death penalty debate is new to Americans. You probably know that it’s a dividing issue even in your country, where 20 or so states have abolished it. I believe most polls have its popular support around 60%. Give or take, depending on how the question is posed.

    With this in mind. How’s my argument different from the American anti death penalty crowd? What is it that I, and other foreigners, don’t understand?

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  49. Kimpost

    I’m always against the death penalty. It was wrong to execute Saddam Hussein, just as it would have been wrong to execute Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot – to name extremes.

    It’s true that the media generally focuses on cases where there seems to be doubt, or at least a shadow of a doubt. And of course, on cases that are helped/pushed by interest groups. How many of those groups are lobbying for white supremacists? Few I would imagine. That’s just how reality works.

    P.S. Don’t be mad at Mookie, for something that Tookie did. ;)

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  50. CM

    Well that’s why it doesn’t work (to my way of thinking). BECAUSE it’s something that comes as a visceral knee-jerk emotional reaction, it should form no part of a rational cold-light-of-day justice system.

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  51. CM

    Although my opinion is meaningless, I’m also always against it too.

    I’m also against the fact that Brewer ordered, but did not eat, a final meal of two chicken fried steaks, a triple-meat bacon cheeseburger, a cheese omelet, a large bowl of fried okra, three fajitas, a pint of Blue Bell ice cream, and a pound of barbecue with a half loaf of white bread. He’s gone and fucked it for everyone now.

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  52. CzarChasm

    Well, right off the bat you don’t understand the numbers. There are 16 states that have abolished the death penalty, not “20 or so.”

    As far as 60%, Hell, I don’t know, maybe you’re high, maybe you’re low, maybe you’re right on the money, but this is another thing that many folks from socialist democracies don’t get, America is not a democracy. In a representative republic, 60% popular support on a highly controversial issue is a virtual landslide, which will almost guarantee that the issue will remain in the hands of the 60% as those supporters elect people, both local and nationally, who support it. If it gets down to an almost 50/50 proposition, the tide will eventually turn and those who share the now-majority view will have to live with being in the minority until the pendulum swings back their way. But even with 50/50 popular support/opposition, each state gets to make its own decision in that regard, so the most that will happen is the popular percentages will rise and wane from time to time, but the death penalty will still be legal for the states where the support is still strong.

    I don’t know though Kimpost, what do you know or understand about the history of the death penalty in our Supreme Court? Did you know that it was ruled unconstitutional at one time? And that that ruling was eventually overturned? If you did know that, do you know why either ruling was arrived at? Chances are that you understand very little about the history of this issue in America, and likely care even less, as opposed to always basing your opinion on your own personal, visceral reaction to it. That’s up to you, but throwing numbers around that wouldn’t effect your opinion one way or the other even if was 100% to zero only makes you look phony, not deliberative. Or are you saying that the numbers really matter to you on this issue?

    CM said:
    Well that’s why it doesn’t work (to my way of thinking). BECAUSE it’s something that comes as a visceral knee-jerk emotional reaction, it should form no part of a rational cold-light-of-day justice system.

    Still employing the gymnastics, huh? How on Earth you or anyone can refer to 20+ years of jury and judicial deliberations (in the Davis case) as “knee-jerk” is quite the non-sequitur. It is rather clearly shown by this employment of the antithesis to logic that it is you who is knee-jerk on the issue. There is absolutely no amount of deliberative process or facts of the case that will dissuade you from your position on the issue. That is the definition of knee-jerk, where you relieve yourself of the need and/or responsibility for thinking about it before reacting to it.

    CC

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  53. CzarChasm

    Although my opinion is meaningless, I’m also always against it too.

    CM, can you articulate any way that your opinion is, or should be, meaningful to the making or enforcing of law in the United States? You do get that that’s what I mean, don’t you? Your opinion is indeed meaningless to me personally, but that’s only because it’s meaningless to the laws of America, and America is where I live.

    It really sounds kind of whiny to repeat that phrase the way you did, when it’s so obviously true that your opinion doesn’t, and shouldn’t, mean anything to the laws of a sovereign country. Or do you oppose sovereignty as strongly as you oppose the death penalty?

    CC

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  54. CzarChasm

    P.S. Don’t be mad at Mookie, for something that Tookie did. ;)

    Oh, I’m not mad at anyone. Call him “Tooth-Pick-Dick Williams,” or “Brontosaurus-Balls Williams,” he’s dead now and I’m fine with that. ;)

    CC

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  55. Kimpost

    I obviously pulled both numbers from the back of my memory. “20 or so” was close enough to 16 for me not to feel like an complete idiot. And when I Google it it seems like 60% seems to be within range as well.

    But I wasn’t trying to be precise. The point was to illustrate the obvious, namely that it is a controversial issue even in the US. Americans are no strangers to death penalty opposition, and its arguments. Moral ones as well as judicial ones. The arguments are pretty much the same all over the world. But you know that, I’m sure, yet you still claim that I don’t understand because I’m not American. How about Americans who agree with its practice? Why do they understand? Or don’t they?

    I know about the 70’s constitutional issues. Like I said, the death penalty is not a new issue, certainly not to me. If you meant something else, then I might have missed it. I do care about the death penalty in general, well because of obvious reasons (me opposing it), but in US especially, since our societies have so many values in common. It kind of makes things interesting. And… this is an American blog.

    Again. I didn’t throw the numbers around to strengthen an argument. And no – poll numbers wouldn’t affect my position.

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  56. richtaylor365

    I just wrote a post about it. I saw the article this morning and wrote the post before I saw your comment, otherwise I would have given you the hat tip :)

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  57. CzarChasm

    The arguments are pretty much the same all over the world. But you know that, I’m sure, yet you still claim that I don’t understand because I’m not American. How about Americans who agree with its practice? Why do they understand? Or don’t they?

    As I previously and subsequently posted in reply to CM, my antipathy or apathy for your opinion is based much less in whether or not you understand the issues, and much more in how meaningful it is to making/changing/enforcing the laws in a sovereign country other than the one in which you are a citizen (Sweden is it? Or Switzerland? I always get them confused, but then, what I think about laws in my country are meaningless to how your country makes/enforces laws, whichever one your country is, and that’s exactly as it should be). Anyway, some Americans understand the issues and have a principled stand, even if they disagree with what I believe just as strongly is my principled stand, and some don’t. But whether or not they understand, their votes and relationship to the government matter here in this sovereign country. Yours don’t. It’s that simple. I fail to see why it’s an issue for me to say that out loud. I’m fine with my opinion not mattering in Sweden or Switzerland or New Zealand or wherever. It’s just the truth, but apparently, some folks can’t handle the truth and go on incessantly whining about it being uttered as some kind of personal attack against them. It’s rather a strange reaction that must be a product of another national or cultural difference between us(?).

    CC

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  58. sahrab

    Finally we found something to agree upon, the hypocrisy of conviction.

    A fine example of this is the Global War on Terror and the visceral reaction to it based on the political party that is in office at the time.

    During the previous administration, we recieved nightly casuality counts on the military men and women who were injured or killed while fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq.

    Anyone opposed to the war were made into hero’s (Cindy Sheehan>, Ramsey Clark). Anyone that called into question their motives or intentions were made into Pariahs and called barbarians. The motives driving these brave soles was many, but relied heavily upon the basis that the soldiers in the War were duped by a conniving administration and the costs of the war. Ted Koppel’s opposition to the war was such that he felt he had to solemnly read off 721 soldiers, that were killed in Iraq, during a ABC Nightline broadcast.

    Noble intentions eh?

    That is until January 2009. Now that there is another adminstration in place, one with the “correct” letter next to its name. Over night the nightly body counts stopped. There hasnt been another Ted Koppel like broadcast. The Anti-War protesters are no longer active, or if they are you wouldnt know based on reporting.

    Whats changed ? Where has all the Anti-Bush…. err i mean Anti-War sentiment gone? The current administration has continued the wars, and expanded the scope and involvement in yet another front. The costs for the war have gone up from what the previous administration spent. Could this mean that Bush’s “Illegal” war is now Legal? Yet there is nary a peep from the same “hero’s”. If anything the same “hero’s” themselves have become marginilized (read comments)

    While there may have been some who were truly opposed to any wars. It seems evident that the opposition of the Media and others, for the most part, was based solely on the Letter of the person in office.

    To your point, Lawrence Brewer killed one of the protected class, and was not deserving of any support. Doing so would have exposed a conflict of interest and called into question intent. Troy Davis was of the protected class, he killed a white cop. As they are all corrupt and racist, Troy was deserved of support and protesting for. The circus surounding this case had nothign to do with conviction, and everythign to do with politics, like opposition to the war.

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  59. Kimpost

    Yes, but this is the Internets. Not everything is about making laws. And even if it was, we are not actually legislating here. None of us/you are, as far as I know. We are talking about single voters here + a couple of foreigners.

    We’re all basically nothing but a bunch of guys discussing shit on a topic to topic basis, as I see it. Why we do it varies individually, I’m sure.

    Anyway, it was you who brought up the lack of understanding part…

    This is illustrative of why I don’t care about what non-Americans think about our laws. They think differently than we do. They have no understanding of how rare it is for a life-without-parole sentence to actually be served to completion, and really, even if/when it is, what’s the difference between putting someone to death as retribution for an unlawful killing and making them live in squalor in a 4 x 8 box 23 hours a day for the rest of their lives?

    You’ve elaborated on that now, by explaining your interest in law, so I’m cool.

    P.S. I’m from Sweden, btw.

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  60. CzarChasm

    Well, I’m cool with you being cool too, but the fact that I used the words “don’t understand” once or twice don’t mitigate the fact that I have been asked over and over again, starting with you, why I, “…don’t seem to particularly enjoy non-American input in general.” Even above, where you say you’re cool with my (8th or 9th or 10th) elaboration, you feel the need to question the validity of my rationale for not caring what foreigners think about my sovereign country’s death penalty laws. When you preface your “I’m cool” with “Your rationale is still not cool” it rather seems a bit contrived. Was that not cool of me to say out loud too?

    CC

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  61. Tool

    Nothing is as final and extreme as killing someone as a punishment. I don’t see how it’s comparable to prison. Or asset forfeiture.

    You said an execution is “killing the killers.” That statement is only flung around to say that the state executing someone is of comparable immorality to a thug murdering someone. My point is, if the state has no moral high ground in a criminal justice setting, then asset forfeiture and prison might as well be called kidnapping and stealing. But you and Kimpost won’t call either action “kidnapping or stealing,” because to both of you prison is an acceptable punishment for criminals. Talk about disingenuous, I am going to ask you again, if a private individual kidnaps a person, throws them in a locked room for months or even years and is then sentenced to prison for doing this; isn’t the state “kidnapping the kidnapper?” The action taken by the state (imprisonment) and the action taken by the individual (false imprisonment) identical except that the state conducts a trial and only imprisons people as punishment for their decisions, whereas the individual does it for whatever personal reasons (sadism, torture etc).

    If you admit that the state imprisoning people is acceptable, then stop blabbering about killing the killers. There is a distinct moral difference between a state executing someone and an individual murdering someone, you CM, just refuse to admit that the state judicial action of executing an individual is acceptable, whereas for you the state judicial action of imprisonment is.

    I’d recognise it as a visceral knee-jerk emotional reaction. I don’t want the society I live in to incoporate visceral knee-jerk emotional reactions as part of any justice policy.

    Dear lord, you must have never worked in any fashion with the judicial system, otherwise you’d know that is all the “criminal justice system” is, knee-jerk reactions codified into statutes which mandate punishment for a multitude of crimes. Throwing someone in a box for 65 years until they die in government custody can be just as easily construed as a “visceral knee-jerk reaction”. The reactions simply change with societal norms as time goes along.

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  62. CM

    Yeah that’s it, you’ve got me, this was all just a subtle ruse to hide my hatred of sovereignty!

    You know, it’s perfectly possible to discuss the issue without determining whether a specific country should adopt a policy. Both Kimpost and I have made it clear that we’re talking about our own personal opinions. Neither of us have said anything remotely like “you guys need to sort your shit out and get rid of it”. There’s really no need to get defensive about the ability of your country, or states without your country, to execute people.

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  63. Kimpost

    If there indeed was any confusion here, then it was because of your poorly worded comment. The one we are discussing now. It was impossible to get anything else out of that, except the notion that non-American input was worthless to you, because we don’t get you. I believe your working theory was that we think differently.

    Look. Next time you want to say that it’s not so much that we think differently, but rather that we have no actual say in US politics, then say that instead, will you?.

    Only on the Internets…*pouring a drink*

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  64. Section8

    I find the whole death-penalty thing immoral and rather sickening, so I’m way too biased to provide anything objective about specific cases. Particularly one where there now looks to be inadequate evidence to consider the guilty finding safe, let alone the sentence, let alone carrying it out.

    This is one of those situations where we might as well be living on different planets.

    This despite the fact Hal made no mention that he approved of it, so clearly this was more a shot at the people of the country where this was carried out. So you got a response and then follow up with don’t get defensive about it.
    Well dumbshit, if you take a shot at something, people tend to get defensive.

    For the record, I’m not big on the death penalty like I used to be, so I’m not going to debate that and defending it isn’t what my comment is about, it is about once again pointing out your pattern of initiating attack, and then playing the whiny victim.

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  65. CzarChasm

    You have to work pretty hard to be that obtuse Kimpost. Check the time-stamps. In this sub-thread right here I said that I “previously and subsequently” clarified my rationale for not caring what you think, and I did. I didn’t invent this hard-to-follow threading of discussion. I can’t help it that some of my posts wind up below and above the one I’m currently posting, but my position was unequivocally and unambiguously stated before this sub-thread even started. Perhaps you’ve been drinking all along?

    CC

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  66. CzarChasm

    Yeah that’s it, you’ve got me, this was all just a subtle ruse to hide my hatred of sovereignty!

    Hmm….So you equate the word “oppose” with “hatred?” Because I asked you if you *opposed* sovereignty, not if you hated it. Or are your panties just still in a bunch because I had the audacity to say out loud that I couldn’t care less what you or any foreigner thinks about the death penalty in America? It’s hard to tell, but you do seem a tad bit oversensitive about it.

    You know, it’s perfectly possible to discuss the issue without determining whether a specific country should adopt a policy. Both Kimpost and I have made it clear that we’re talking about our own personal opinions.

    Right. See Section8’s post above. Beyond that though, it was clearly you and Kimpost that focused on the “I don’t care” meme of mine. I posted only one sentence saying that, in an almost parenthetical manner to offering my opinions on the Davis execution. Kimpost chose to ignore what I thought about the execution and commented only on that one sentence. It might be legitimate to say I made a mistake in doing so, but I replied to Kimpost, and then you joined in furthering the need to for me to explain/clarify/reply and neither of you have quit yet.

    So yeah, it’s possible to just discuss the issue. When either of you are ready to do that with me, go for it if you want, but you already know what my reply will be – I DON’T CARE WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT IT! If that’s alright with you, then I guess we’re pretty much done, but somehow I doubt it.

    CC

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  67. AlexInCT

    You bring up an interesting point there Poosh. Why is it that it is ONLY cases like this one that they take public? Follow along with me…

    Did you know they put to death the shithead racist that dragged a black man to death behind his truck for the simple reason that he was black, on the same day they did this fella? What about Tim McVeigh or other such mad murderers? Why don’t the anti-death penalty people try to argue people like this didn’t deserve death too?

    Let me give you a hint: it’s because they know damned well that while they can make a case for those cases where they can invoke the belief of doubt so they can make people feel sympathy for the criminal, fighting for these evil fucks would only serve to cement the belief that some people & what they did are so evil they must be put down like the fucking dogs they are. And there you have it:

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  68. CM

    I am going to ask you again, if a private individual kidnaps a person, throws them in a locked room for months or even years and is then sentenced to prison for doing this; isn’t the state “kidnapping the kidnapper?”

    I don’t accept it as being comparable because it wouldn’t *just* be ‘kidnapping’ (even if I accepted it as ‘kidnapping’). There’s a whole lot else that goes on. But not with the death penalty. That is purely and simply killing the killer. It’s essentially retribution/revenge.

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  69. CM

    Still employing the gymnastics, huh?

    Sorry, I don’t see where the ‘gymnastics’ have been employed.

    How on Earth you or anyone can refer to 20+ years of jury and judicial deliberations (in the Davis case) as “knee-jerk” is quite the non-sequitur.

    That’s the non-sequitur. Obviously he wasn’t sentenced to death on the day of execution.

    It is rather clearly shown by this employment of the antithesis to logic that it is you who is knee-jerk on the issue.

    Sorry I don’t see it.

    There is absolutely no amount of deliberative process or facts of the case that will dissuade you from your position on the issue

    I’ve already made it clear that the facts of the case are irrelevant.

    That is the definition of knee-jerk, where you relieve yourself of the need and/or responsibility for thinking about it before reacting to it

    I oppose the dealth penalty on moral grounds (among others). How on earth is that position ‘knee-jerk’?

    You may have changed your name but here we are back in old familiar pattern. And you know full well that Kimpost is from Sweden.

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  70. CM

    Actually “This is one of those situations where we might as well be living on different planets” is another way of saying “we’re obviously coming from entirely different starting points”. Which I also said in this thread.

    I’m sorry if you took offence.

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  71. CM

    Hmm….So you equate the word “oppose” with “hatred?” Because I asked you if you *opposed* sovereignty, not if you hated it. Or are your panties just still in a bunch because I had the audacity to say out loud that I couldn’t care less what you or any foreigner thinks about the death penalty in America? It’s hard to tell, but you do seem a tad bit oversensitive about it.

    I was simply exaggerating for effect because your question was just silly. It deserved a silly answer. So that clearly worked.
    I couldn’t care less that you or any other American thinks my opinion about the death penalty is irrelevant.

    Right. See Section8′s post above.

    Sure, and see my answer.

    So yeah, it’s possible to just discuss the issue.

    Cool.

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  72. CzarChasm

    Sorry, I don’t see where the ‘gymnastics’ have been employed.

    Of course not. As you say below, old familiar patterns. I can’t recall ever seeing you admit to the kind of blatant duplicitous inconsistencies that the “gymnastics” remark was in reply to.

    You may have changed your name

    True, but….

    And you know full well that Kimpost is from Sweden.

    I really did forget whether it was Sweden or Switzerland. The hangover from the Demerol may have had something to do with that, but whatever, I can’t imagine what you have conjured up would be my justification to myself to lie about it. I haven’t hidden anything CM, except for my wish not to rehash old resentments and arguments. My cynicism for the future of my country is in plain view. My focus on the Constitution is as strong as it ever was. My use of words like “leftists” or LOL’s here and there or even saying I don’t care about what foreigners think of my country or her policies, all of it is 100% traditional me. I even used the word “Obammunists” one time! Hell, even if I had adjusted my syntax to try to hide, my verbosity would’ve given me away eventually, so I didn’t even try.

    Believe it or not as you see fit, but my only reason for not announcing who I was, was to try to have a fresh start and at least put off the arguments with you and a couple of others that I knew were inevitable for as long as possible without being phony about it. I doubt JimK wants to involve himself in such pettiness, but I told him who I was and asked him to keep it between him and I for exactly that reason. I’d still like to put them off, but I doubt you’ll allow that. Me making a polite request to discuss one thing with my American compatriots was too much to ask, so I guess I have my answer on that score. Yep, familiar patterns indeed.

    Oh well, at least I won’t be alone in my frustration with trying to discuss stuff with you. You’ve managed to piss off more of the regulars here than at MooreWatch. I just shake my head when I see someone talking about you moving the goal posts. It’s hilariously depressing, meaning I don’t know whether to laugh or cry at the thought of having you to look forward to here, where only a few posts earned me an invitation to author, and knowing that you’ll always seek to dismiss, minimize, ridicule, highjack, obfuscate and demonize nearly every subject I attempt to discuss. And you know that you can count on every one of those topics that I author to be totally about American issues. I almost never rag on other countries. In fact, I don’t know if I’ve ever started a post about any other country’s issues, but you’re always there to tell me how ridiculousstupidrightwingnutjobracistantiscienceplanetkilleridioticmoronic I am about wholly American issues just the same. I just read someone earlier today using a few more choice words than I care to use to describe exactly what I’m describing about you now. Has it ever occurred to you that if multiples of people who have tried to discuss things rationally and politely with you feel that way, that it might be you that’s the problem? I’m sure there’s a recognizable pattern right there in that question, because I recall more than once trying to get you to look at a mirror when you accuse people of…well…just about everything that you do on an all-too-regular basis. Yep, familiar patterns. They’re everywhere on this blog. It’s nearly unanimous from what I can tell. People find you insufferable.

    Mm’K, I’ve said my piece. Do your worst. I know you will.

    CC

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  73. Jim

    It’s essentially retribution/revenge.

    Actually, it’s Justice.
    When you take a life, you forfeit your own. Whenever you break a law, there is a corresponding action the State takes to administer Justice. One problem the American Justice system has is that they started calling jails and prisons “correctional facilities” or “rehabilitation centers.” The primary function of prison is Justice by means of some sort of punishment. The most common of which is incarceration. This is usually accompanied by fines, later probation, community service, etc. But the main idea behind the Justice system is *punishment*. Certain factions in society keep attempting to push us further and further from that concept and more towards “rehabilitation” and the idea that “they had a (good) reason for doing what they did, and given their background (etc.) it is understandable, so we need to rehabilitate them, not punish them.”
    No.
    Rehabilitation, deterrence, etc are all great, but the primary focus is supposed to be *Justice*. It no longer is. The Death Penalty, for all the moral quandaries, debates, arguments, what have you, is simply Justice. If you want to err on the side of Mercy, by all means, argue that point. But the Death Penalty is *not* “essentially” retribution or revenge. That is precisely why the *State*, not the victim’s friends/families are the ones to carry it out. The State has no vendetta, no “feelings”, it has not been victimized other than one of its members has been murdered. As such, The State is brought in to administer Justice. The switch-man at the Chair is chosen so as not to have any emotional attachment to the situation other than doing his civic duty as demanded by Justice.

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  74. Kimpost

    Bringing this one out here.

    I really did forget whether it was Sweden or Switzerland. The hangover from the Demerol may have had something to do with that, but whatever, I can’t imagine what you have conjured up would be my justification to myself to lie about it. I haven’t hidden anything CM, except for my wish not to rehash old resentments and arguments.

    Hi, B… nice touch with the thank you for welcoming you here routine, and the thing about you not knowing how to post links and shit. And how you didn’t remember if I was European. Too funny. :)

    If you wanted a fresh start, then why didn’t you just ask for one? You know like; “I’ve been an arsehole at times, and so have you, but from now on I’d like for us to elevate the discourse beyond personal insults and profanities.”

    Anyway, you chose another route, and I’m actually fine with that. Our identities are not big things anyway. I’ll just use this space to comment on some of the things you just posted. Look, I wouldn’t, but I feel I have to, because I just don’t agree with your characterisations.

    My cynicism for the future of my country is in plain view. My focus on the Constitution is as strong as it ever was. My use of words like “leftists” or LOL’s here and there or even saying I don’t care about what foreigners think of my country or her policies, all of it is 100% traditional me. I even used the word “Obammunists” one time! Hell, even if I had adjusted my syntax to try to hide, my verbosity would’ve given me away eventually, so I didn’t even try.

    But you did try. And believe it or not that’s a good thing, according to me. Your last year or two at Moorewatch weren’t pretty. But here, you’ve actually started up by being polite. I applaud that.

    Believe it or not as you see fit, but my only reason for not announcing who I was, was to try to have a fresh start and at least put off the arguments with you and a couple of others that I knew were inevitable for as long as possible without being phony about it. I doubt JimK wants to involve himself in such pettiness, but I told him who I was and asked him to keep it between him and I for exactly that reason. I’d still like to put them off, but I doubt you’ll allow that.

    I have no doubts whatsoever that CM will be able to put things behind him. He might be annoyingly persistent but he rarely resorts to personal attacks. I know I’ll sure as hell try not to chase you around just because you are you. I don’t think I ever did. Frankly I can’t recall anyone chasing you around at MW either. It was always about your positions.

    Me making a polite request to discuss one thing with my American compatriots was too much to ask, so I guess I have my answer on that score. Yep, familiar patterns indeed.

    See, you did this kind of shit at MW too. It never worked there, and it will never work here, because it so blatantly obvious what you are trying to do here. You simply want to shut certain people up, people you don’t agree with. You claim not to be interested in foreign opinions, but over the years I’ve seen you quoting them when it suits you. Anyway, this isn’t a private club. Foreigners will comment if they feel like it, regardless of what you think about it. Doing so is not impolite. Asking for it, frankly is.

    Oh well, at least I won’t be alone in my frustration with trying to discuss stuff with you. You’ve managed to piss off more of the regulars here than at MooreWatch. I just shake my head when I see someone talking about you moving the goal posts. It’s hilariously depressing, meaning I don’t know whether to laugh or cry at the thought of having you to look forward to here, where only a few posts earned me an invitation to author, and knowing that you’ll always seek to dismiss, minimize, ridicule, highjack, obfuscate and demonize nearly every subject I attempt to discuss.

    Christ. Did you just write a “…look, you’re not liked around here, while I’m a front page-contributor”-post?

    And you know that you can count on every one of those topics that I author to be totally about American issues. I almost never rag on other countries. In fact, I don’t know if I’ve ever started a post about any other country’s issues, but you’re always there to tell me how […]

    Which is fine. But count on me and others for voicing our opinions, regardless of origin, and regardless of your “polite requests”.

    I’ve had my say. Believe it or not but I have no personal beef with you or any of your possible Internet persona’s. Never did. I’m just a regular guy from Sweden who happens to be interested in politics. And I like discussing it. Sometimes discussions can get heated, but I rarely allow them to get to me personally. Hope and trust that we can stay civil, and let what happened at MW, stay at MW.
    ;)

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  75. Section8

    I couldn’t care less that you or any other American thinks my opinion about the death penalty is irrelevant.

    Excellent, then I think we can agree that most here don’t care about what you think, and you don’t care what we think. Now some progress is being made. Perhaps your views about America would be more suited on a New Zealand blog don’t you think? Then you can talk there about our “creepy” culture as you used that word in the past, and other subtle insults. Of course when called out on them we get the standard reply by saying well I didn’t really mean that but really I did. Back on your home blogs you could just be straight up about it without all the bullshit. This is just my opinion though. Maybe some here do like your tripe, but I doubt it’s too many.

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  76. JimK

    I’m not getting in the middle of this old MW bullshit (except to say “baggage much?”), I swear, but:

    but he rarely resorts to personal attacks

    That was fucking hilarious. Either you were telling a hell of a joke, or you only see what you want to see.

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  77. Kimpost

    One man’s justice is another man’s revenge. I get what you are saying, though, mostly because we know each other. What you are saying only holds water if you believe that the term justice has an absolute meaning.

    The problem is that society, as you yourself acknowledged, doesn’t seem to agree with you. We the people determine what justice currently is by adjustments in law. Most democracies have abolished the death penalty. US has not. Nor has Japan. But popular support for its practice has fallen, even in the US. It looks like it will eventually go away.

    Do you agree with me that no justice system can be 100% accurate? Not even when it comes to murder. If you do, statistics tell us that innocent people will be put to death. It’s just an inevitable statistical fact. Does that trouble you, or do you feel that the need for true justice is so great that we’ll just have to break an egg or two to make an omelette?

    Wouldn’t it be possible for you to regard anything else than death as justice, even when speaking of the worst amongst crimes?

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  78. Kimpost

    Rarely, is not the same as never.

    My honest guess is that our respective biases makes us see differently on what’s offence and what’s defence.

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  79. CzarChasm

    Hi, B… nice touch with the thank you for welcoming you here routine

    Where did I thank you for welcoming me? Assuming I did, and assuming you welcomed me, I meant it. How’s that a “touch” of any kind, nice or otherwise?

    and the thing about you not knowing how to post links and shit.

    Since you’re not an author here, you probably don’t know that posting videos and pictures is a lot different than on a regular forum. And I was being 100% honest in saying I had only ever perused blogs before. Never posted as a commenter that I recall, or an author before. I’m still only in the ascending phase of the learning curve. It wasn’t “shit” at all. JimK can verify that if it means enough to you to catch me in a lie to ask him, or if you’re willing to find out that you taking for granted that I was shittin’ ya was, in and of itself, shit.

    And how you didn’t remember if I was European. Too funny. :)

    I didn’t say I didn’t remember *if* you were European, I said I didn’t remember where I read it, and I don’t. Probably read it at MW, but it could’ve been on the old or newer forums. I mean, yeah, I’m using a little verbal gymnastics, but I still didn’t say what you claim I said. Reread your own link. I did.

    If you wanted a fresh start, then why didn’t you just ask for one?

    Because I don’t feel the need to ask you for anything. I went about it the way I thought it best.

    You know like; “I’ve been an arsehole at times, and so have you, but from now on I’d like for us to elevate the discourse beyond personal insults and profanities.”

    Seriously? I’ve let slip profanities before, but it’s hardly my MO. Even CM said a couple of weeks ago that I almost always included the substance of the thread, even if I was insulting while doing it. Seems pretty par for the course with both you and him here too, so I don’t see where you get off demanding some kind of confessional to you before I make an honest effort to do better than I did at MW. Bottom line Kimpost, wanting to do better is between me and my conscience. It has nothing whatsoever to do with you or CM, so don’t be expecting any requests for your blessings in anything I do or say.

    But you did try. [to hide who I am]

    No I didn’t, and I couldn’t even if I wanted to. I’ve been posting on the internet using the same key words and phrases for close to 20 years now. The issues I talk about, generally-speaking, haven’t changed in all that time, except to relate and/or connect them to whatever current event is being discussed at the time. I knew someone would either ask me if I was BluesStringer, or “out” me like CM did sooner or later, and I didn’t shy away from it at all because I wasn’t trying to hide who I am. My issues and my writing style, such as it is, wouldn’t allow me to hide for long, so I tried just to enjoy y’all for as long as it lasted, that’s all.

    As far as the name-change goes, first, I thought of this one at least a year ago, I think it was longer, but I was only visiting two forums on a regular basis at the time, and neither one had a way for me to change my nick on my own, so I just kind of held onto the idea until I ran across another forum where I thought I’d be fairly active and register as CzarChasm. You might recall that I have a big-time problem with all of Obama’s czars, and I’d like nothing more than to see them all chucked into a giant chasm. Seemed appropriate for me. I liked it anyway.

    But regardless of what name it was to become, I was done with BluesStringer. It meant something to me when I created it about 10 or 12 years ago. I was playing a lot and very active on music forums. It’s pretty meaningless on political forums though. That’s one thing.

    Truth is now though, my hands have become so arthritic that I can’t play anymore. I sold all my gear about a year ago. One of the hardest things I’ve ever done. But anyway, I literally ain’t a BluesStringer no more. Good time to try on CzarChasm, so there ya go.

    It was always about your positions.

    Uh…yeah, right. You do realize that this thread here is completely trashed because of a position that I stated in only one sentence, the crux of which can be distilled down to only three words, don’t you? “I don’t care” got us here Kimpost. There’s a pretty wide…umm…chasm between “persistent” and freakin’ insanely obsessive, and that’s how I see this deviation from the thread topic. I said early on that your views were neither unwelcome or inappropriate in this thread, it’s just that stating your views weren’t going to make me care about them. Neither of you guys could let that fact go, and here we are. Gee, a regular ol’ ride down memory lane, huh? Oh well, I still don’t care, but it wasn’t my “position” that got us here Kimpost, it was you two trying to brow-beat me into changing it, or going through countless contortions trying to invalidate it, or reaching for some rationale to say I wasn’t clear about it. Oops. If you’ve learned nothing about me over the last several years, you should’ve learned that I don’t ever acquiesce to brow-beating or obfuscation. But you have to admit, I didn’t lose my temper or return the favor. I just tried to make myself understood. But as per usual, you guys wouldn’t have any of it. Always about my positions. Pffft.

    Christ. Did you just write a “…look, you’re not liked around here, while I’m a front page-contributor”-post?

    Nope. I wrote a prediction on how I expect it to go from now on, based on a long history that makes it an educated prediction. I noted that others around here state their observations of exactly the same traits of CM’s that drove me crazy all the time too, constantly moving the goal posts being the most significant one. I won’t call you his “puppy dog” or whatever it was, but I get where that came from, and it is why I don’t expect you to see the same annoyances of CM as I and others here do.

    As far as the “front-page-contributor” thing goes, I did not request that status. It was offered to me. And I didn’t accept it without telling JimK who I was and giving him every opportunity to rescind the offer with no hard feelings, simply because I knew without a doubt that this would happen sooner or later. Like I said, I can’t hide who I am, and your all’s history with me is long and detailed enough that you were going to at least ask if I was BS, if not do exactly what CM did and just confidently and accurately claim his knowledge of it. I take a bit of pride in JimK thinking my writing would be a good addition to his site after so little time here, and I can’t help it if CM showed the participants here the exact same side(s) of himself that I know so well. So even if it went just as you say above, so what? I did nothing to contribute to CM’s being liked or disliked around here. And why shouldn’t I take pride in being invited to be a “front-page-contributor?” That was just a weird thing to say. Sorry, I have no idea why I should be ashamed or embarrassed even if I meant it exactly as you imply.

    …or any of your possible Internet persona’s.

    Only two nicks used by me anywhere on the internet for the last 10 or 12 years, BluesStringer and CzarChasm. I don’t remember who it was, but someone at MW a couple of years ago got a hair up their ass and accused me of repeatedly registering and posting under different nicks. Never happened. Not once. BluesStringer is gone unless and until someone else wants to use it. You can check the Members list here, I never registered here as BS, and didn’t register CC until just a couple or three weeks (give or take, I don’t remember precisely) before I started posting.

    Believe all that or not, I still don’t care.

    CC

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  80. Kimpost

    Where did I thank you for welcoming me? Assuming I did, and assuming you welcomed me, I meant it. How’s that a “touch” of any kind, nice or otherwise?

    It was before your introduction. It was just a bit weird accepting a welcome from someone you “know”, that’s all. But whatever.

    Seriously? I’ve let slip profanities before, but it’s hardly my MO.

    I never said that you didn’t provide substance. If you think it was implied, it wasn’t meant to be. You provided us with substance at MW as well, but you certainly could be an arse too. At times you took your profanities and personal insults to ridiculous levels, especially the last couple of years, but […]

    […] as far as I’m concerned all of that is old news. Here, you’ve been mostly polite. Besides, this isn’t kindergarten, all of us can take a hit or two. Having said that, it would be nice if you could drop your “polite” requests for American input. I just think it’s lame, and you’ll get your American input anyway.

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  81. Tripper

    I think the key difference is that there is some actual doubt over the guilt of Davis, while there wasn’t much doubt over the guilt of Brewer.

    This is an instance where one could be for the death penalty in theory, but against this specific execution (Davis) on the grounds that the conviction wasn’t strong enough to justify carrying out such a final sentence.

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  82. Tripper

    I know I’m late to this thread, and this specific bit of the conversation, but I’ll toss in my 2 cents anyway.

    CM, can you articulate any way that your opinion is, or should be, meaningful to the making or enforcing of law in the United States? You do get that that’s what I mean, don’t you? Your opinion is indeed meaningless to me personally, but that’s only because it’s meaningless to the laws of America, and America is where I live.

    It’s true that CMs opinion isn’t directly meaningful to making or enforcing US laws, but your opinion is CC, as is the opinion of many other participants in this discussion board.
    So you could ask the question: Is (or should) CM’s opinions be meaningful to shaping the opinions of anybody else on this board?
    That’s a question that people can only answer for themselves, (But I’ll speculate) It’s quite possible that you strongly believe there is nothing CM could ever say on any topic that would either change your mind, or even just give you something new to think about which may in time lead to you reshaping your own views in one direction or another. But even if that were true for you, it wouldn’t make it so for other participants here.
    If CM’s thoughts and opinions influenced anybody here who is American, even if it’s just that after discussing with him they are even more sure of their pro capital punishment position, then indirectly CM has had or potentially could have a small impact on US law. Just as CM may take something away after participating in these discussion with citizens of other countries which influences how he thinks about legal matters in NZ, and thus in turn influences his vote next time he hits the polling station.

    Do I think this is CM’s motivation for discussing things here? (to influence Americans in the direction of his views, in the hope that they then go and work towards changing US law to reflect those views). I doubt it but I can’t say for sure. My own motivation for participating in Moorewatch so much over the years, and my occasional visits over here are for my own intellectual exercise. I enjoy discussing these sorts of things with others, and for me there is much more fun in discussing with people who don’t share my views than with those who do, and I believe there is a significantly higher chance of me learning something new as well.

    When you say you’re only interested in what Americans think in one of your posts, you might as well say that no citizen of any other country could have a thought or an opinion on that topic that could further your own thought process on the issue. Essentially that you can only learn from your own countrymen, at least on the matters you specify on.

    On the topic of capital punishment itself, it would be a mistake to think of it as only an American issue. (What America does about capital punishment is an American issue of course) It is true that among western countries I believe America is alone as far as where it is legal, but that’s not to say there is no support for it in the other countries.
    It may not be a legal option in the UK any more but it is still an issue, just recently there was a small but significant push to start discussions on re-instituting it. If that ever went any further, I’d expect, and certainly hope, that those discussing it examine the situation in the US to see if anything can be learned.
    While the moral and legal issues of implementing capital punishment in one country, say the UK are different from the moral and legal issues around it in another, say the US, there is likely to be a good deal of overlap in those issues. While it’s probably a bad idea for a country to enact law simply because another country has done so, I find it hard to believe that nothing can be learned from similar situations abroad.

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  83. Manwhore

    Hadn’t thought about that but maybe that should be true too. I would like to see the conviction rate if those were the stakes…because, quite frankly, those are the stakes. If you purposefully kill an innocent man, you murdered him, IMO.

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  84. CM

    and you don’t care what we think.

    Try reading it again.

    Then you can talk there about our “creepy” culture as you used that word in the past

    Wow, that’s impressively dishonest. What a dick.

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  85. CM

    Believe it or not as you see fit, but my only reason for not announcing who I was, was to try to have a fresh start

    That’s what I assumed (and I even said so to Kimpost, Tripper and Xetrov behind the scenes). I kinda suspected it was you from the get-go, but your 9/11 “where was I” account the other week confirmed it.
    Anyway your motive makes sense, even if it did make everything quite phony, with you having to pretend you didn’t know us and everything. Perhaps I should have let the charade continue, I don’t know. I didn’t really feel comfortable about it though.

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  86. CM

    Of course not. As you say below, old familiar patterns. I can’t recall ever seeing you admit to the kind of blatant duplicitous inconsistencies that the “gymnastics” remark was in reply to.

    Despite all your words suggesting it, you still haven’t explained how I’ve employed gymnastics. Instead of just repeating the accusation over and over again, why don’t you just explain what the actual problem is? Or has being ‘outted’ flipped a switch and we now have to put up with the shadow-of-his-former-self BluesStringer we endured for those last few years at MW? If so, I would definitely have kept my mouth shut.

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  87. Section8

    Wow, that’s impressively dishonest. What a dick.

    In order for it to be dishonest it would have to be false, dick.

    Yeah, victory laps in the streets (and all the ‘USA USA’ chanting certainly come across as strange to me (and I would imagine almost all people in my country). It’s comes across as a little creepy. But I recognise that it’s a cultural difference (we go with the whole humility thing in a big way when it comes to things like this, to the point of being silly). But I’m not going to criticise anyone for it given what Bin Laden did to your country. People can take as much pleasure from this as they like, as far as I’m concerned. The guy was an evil fuck. Whereas you guys are our friends and allies.

    So we see your usual send an insult, but with the I didn’t mean it but really I did bullshit. Such as you guys are a little creepy, but hey, it’s your culture and I’m not going to criticize even though I just did. You couldn’t even let us have some fucking closure without chiming in with a negative.

    9/11 was the worst event in our lifetime, the attack was deliberately on civilians, there was no conventional war as far as a country declaring war so bin Laden in effect became that country, hence the celebration of victory. Unfortunately you being out of this country and ignorant of the situation of how it affected most American, and why some reacted the way they did leaves you on a soap box from afar to spew your bullshit on the matter..

    On another note, I also see two swipes at bluessinger there, and I don’t know the guy or the history, but I did see Kimpost’s post earlier that you rarely go on personal attacks. I guess 2 times in a thread of 20 or so posts is rare. One with a video of a redneck firing a gun on a tractor celebrating bin Laden’s demise, That’s cute.

    See page 1 – 3

    My guess if bluessinger was rude to you it’s because of an ongoing trail of bullshit like this. Personally, I can’t blame him.

    Anyhow, I remember calling you out on this and you had an explanation, and I somewhat bought into it back then, but I’ve seen other subtle jabs about your feelings about our inferiority. Save it for your own domestic blogs.

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  88. CzarChasm

    Tripper said:
    When you say you’re only interested in what Americans think in one of your posts, you might as well say that no citizen of any other country could have a thought or an opinion on that topic that could further your own thought process on the issue. Essentially that you can only learn from your own countrymen, at least on the matters you specify on.

    Before I reply, thanks for the friendly greeting.

    As I was reading your post, I kept thinking I remembered having various versions of this conversation before, and I was pretty sure a lot of it was between me and Kimpost. When I say “this” conversation, I’m referring to a couple of things though; one, the death penalty and, two, whether or not one country’s citizens should be all that concerned with either the existence of or application/enforcement of another country’s laws. Thanks to JimK having archived MW, I was able to confirm most of what I was thinking, though the most significant find wasn’t between me and Kimpost, but rather, between Englander, myself, and one post by CM that is hilarious in light of the context of this thread.

    Englander said:
    Pro death penalty media outlets are hard to find in the UK, I’ve been reading some coverage in the Times, which hasn’t really taken a stance on the anti/pro death penalty argument, it’s just reported the case. It’s actually an interesting case, I don’t pretend to know whether he is reformed, or as you suggest, merely towing the line.
    It’s really hard for me to get into this argument with an American, personally I am anti-death penalty, mainly because of the miscarriages of justice in the UK, both prior to and after the abolition.
    But it’s a punishment in your country, not mine, so I wouldn’t want to argue the pros and cons if it’s backed by your population, if you follow.

    That was from a thread that Englander himself started entitled, “The Constitution – A foreigner requires guidance.” Was I interested in that thread? Of course! And I did participate in it, but Englander’s above reply was not in response to anything I had said. In fact, it was rather spontaneous, said in reply to CigarSkunk, but rather like an epiphany than a direct response to anything CigarSkunk had said. Anyway….

    I said in response:
    This is the most sensible way I’ve heard to voice one’s opinion about the death penalty while still respecting the vastly different laws between our countries. Oh, and recognizing the significance of popular opinion, which I just happened to hear today was 74% in favor of the death penalty in particularly heinous crimes, is a refreshing position to hear. Thanks Englander.

    How does that go? Oh yeah,

    Cheers

    Englander said in reply to me:
    Well that’s one of the things I’ve learnt over the last 18 months on here. There really is no point in trying to argue matters that are solely US issues from a British perspective. Given our cultures are so similar in many ways, but on certain subjects the divide is so huge it’s just not worth entering into a debate about it. No one will ever win.

    And CM said in reply to that:
    I might be starting to slowly learn that……….hopefully.

    HAHAHAHA! Now, you gotta admit that’s pretty damned funny in light of this thread, where basically three words, “I don’t care,” that on that day anyway, Englander would’ve agreed wholeheartedly with, has generated this much cyber-ink and trudging up years-old resentments for no other purpose than to either get me to retract my “I don’t care” statement, invalidate it, or just use it as an excuse to argue and whine incessantly about minutia.

    See Tripper, even though Englander and I went around and around while he was active almost as much as CM and I, or probably about the same amount as You and I did, on that day he acquiesced one point that had been the subject of many of our go-arounds. Now, you took the time to actually address questions that I asked directly of CM. While your answers haven’t really swayed me, I respect you taking the time to try. CM chose another path, as did Kimpost, a path that focuses on years-old arguments as a way to avoid addressing questions which you seemed to recognize as being asked in good faith. And on that score…..

    I found another thread that Kimpost started specifically about the death penalty. It was worded kind of strangely, asking the board if it wasn’t time that “we” abolish it. Crichton asked who “we” was, and Kimpost’s answer was, “We the people of planet Earth. We, the world citizens. We the people of the industrialized world. Pick one.” I realize it was CM I asked about his views on sovereignty yesterday (or whenever it was), but it wasn’t such an out-of-left-field question in light of answers like that that I’ve been given by globalists/collectivists/leftists for as long as I’ve been on the internet. Anyway, I ignored that part of the thread when answering Kimpost’s original question, and took it in good faith by answering it thusly:

    BluesStringer said:
    I have had my mind changed a little bit on the subject. I am not against eye-for-an-eye type of justice per se, but I am for better standards of proof in death penalty convictions. There are several groups that do pro bono work using DNA evidence that wasn’t available at the time of someone’s conviction and they’ve uncovered a lot of mistakes. The same groups were somewhat successful in exposing mistakes in convictions even before DNA testing. I’d be for requiring DNA evidence to be present before someone can “qualify” for the death penalty, but I’m not for abolishing it altogether. There are people in this world who are so evil and useless to society that they should not walk among men. Besides that, I am more resistant to any changes to our system that originate in Europe rather than amongst America’s citizens. Anti-death penalty sentiment has gained ground here, but it’s still got a long ways to go before a majority support its abolishment. Just because other countries order their society differently than we do is no reason to consider anything to me.

    Blues

    The first thread was from ’05. This one was from ’09. I’d say my standards of consistency and intellectual honesty are completely intact, as are Kimpost’s, but CM gets a couple of demerits for that one flub, as evidenced by this very thread here.

    Point is Tripper, I arrived at those views expressed in ’09 without any input from foreigners. As Englander said, and even CM said in this thread, people in our respective cultures just see things differently. For how it relates to my life, my interests, my family or my country’s future, yes indeed, foreigner’s views remain meaningless to me. You knowing what a stubborn ol’ fart I am, should know that I’m not likely to move off of that position. But seriously, I do appreciate you taking the time, and putting in the effort, to answer my questions directly rather than just following the crowd down that old dusty road of mostly-forgotten resentments and vitriol as far as I’m concerned.

    CC

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  89. CM

    Big difference between describing a particular reaction to a specific event/incident as “coming across a little creepy” FOLLOWED BY AN EXPLANATION OF WHAT I MEAN and saying that your entire culture is creepy. So yeah, it’s dishonest. But that’s no surprise..

    ….I don’t know the guy or the history….

    That’s right, you don’t. Certainly won’t stop you piling-on though, that’s for sure.

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  90. CM

    I kept thinking I remembered having various versions of this conversation before, and I was pretty sure a lot of it was between me and Kimpost

    Kimpost? Who is this Kimpost of which you speak?
    ;-)

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  91. CM

    CM chose another path, as did Kimpost, a path that focuses on years-old arguments as a way to avoid addressing questions which you seemed to recognize as being asked in good faith.

    I have made no mention whatsoever of “years-old arguments”. All I did (in terms of anything related to MW) was mention that we seem to falling into our old familar patterns, and I wanted to get who you really are out of the way. The rest of my comments are about the topic, and addressing responses to me. In terms of your American-only-responses-please request, Kimpost and I have been brief and nothing but polite. So please don’t even try to pretend that we’ve tried to take this down any sort of ‘path’. It’s you that’s blown the thread up with your rather ridiculous reaction to being ‘outed’. Just chill, I really don’t care that you’re BluesStringer. Actually, I’d much rather you be here than not be here. As I say, you add significant substance.

    but CM gets a couple of demerits for that one flub, as evidenced by this very thread here.

    Huh? Which ‘flub’?
    I said in the 2009 thread:

    I prefer to see it as liberal people regarding justice as not being so much about revenge/vengeance (they generally want justice to be based less on emotive response). And having a fundamental issue over killing people to show them that killing people is wrong.

    Is that different to what I’ve said in this thread?
    In terms of Englander’s comment concluding that “No one will ever win” and my response, what exactly is the issue there? Surely it’s still possible and even potentially enjoyable to go over the merits or demerits of an argument while recognising that nobody may change their stance even a little bit, and that cultural perspectives may have something to do with that?

    You question about sovereignty made no sense to me, and it still makes no sense.

    that old dusty road of mostly-forgotten resentments and vitriol as far as I’m concerned

    There’s only person who has taken us down that road here. It ended with your invitation to get down and dirty: “Mm’K, I’ve said my piece. Do your worst. I know you will.”
    So on one-hand you’re arguing that you tried to keep your identity a secret for as long as possible so as to avoid us clashing again like old times and fucking this place up, and yet immediately you’ve been ‘outed’ you’re looking to get right back into it as hard-out as it ever was?
    I don’t get it. Why can’t we just be honest about who we are and not go out of way to provoke each other? (BTW, that’s why I’ve left the bulk of your reaction post unanswered).

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  92. CzarChasm

    Wow. Just wow. I just saw this before scrolling down to read you (predictably) abdicating all responsibility for anything that’s ever gone on between us:

    Section8 said:
    I guess 2 times in a thread of 20 or so posts is rare. One with a video of a redneck firing a gun on a tractor celebrating bin Laden’s demise, That’s cute.

    See page 1 – 3

    Wasn’t it you just a day or two ago who said something like, “Well, at least we aren’t just calling you rednecks?” You have the gall to come here and act all innocent and say I’m phony after that? And you’re not holding onto old resentments and vitriol? Is that what that video should say to me? According to that thread, even if I had never said another word to you on the internet, I would be “…continuing his spiraling descent on his own,” yet I’m supposed to believe you now how glad you are that I’m here, or how you’re all about letting bygones be bygones? Dude, that thread proves I’m living rent-free in your head, and will always be there until the day you die, even if I never visit this or any other site that you frequent again. Talk about a spiraling descent.

    Another thing I just noticed is the date of that thread. On the day you posted that ridiculous video, I was in my sixth day of a blackout due to the tornadoes. I was only into my first of six weeks of repairing the house though. I didn’t have a lot of time, and even less inclination, to lurk anywhere on the internet, much less somewhere where you were. Now that I think about it, you were actually pretty close to the truth with your “spiraling descent” comment. The ‘nado that hit us was probably less than 200 yards of destroying everything we own. As it was, it only knocked one wall down of the garage. Two doors down from our house on our street, and eight houses in a row behind our house, are all gone, and most of them are not being rebuilt because acts of God are not covered by their insurance policies. Your timing to be joking about my “spiraling descent” was impeccable, even though I never would’ve seen it if not for Section8 linking to it. Then again, I seriously doubt you intended that as a joke at all. Whatever, it doesn’t matter now so don’t try to say what you intended it as. I wouldn’t believe you now if your tongue came notarized!

    CC

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  93. Kimpost

    Digging in the archives, are we? :) Anyway, I’m not going there, but this regarding our current embedded forum.

    Dude, that thread proves I’m living rent-free in your head, and will always be there until the day you die, even if I never visit this or any other site that you frequent again.

    It really doesn’t. You need to be able to take a joke. I bet many of the people at old MW at times have had mental pictures of you building a nuclear safe shack in the woods, stacked with canned food, water and all the guns & ammo you could afford, while waiting for the inevitable collapse of the United States of America. The time when you and other patriots would shine. ;)

    None of those mental pictures have been very real though. I bet none of us actually thought you were doing that. CM made a light hearted joke about an old (and presumed lost) forum antagonist that’s all. Things aren’t always black or white, CC.

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  94. Section8

    FOLLOWED BY AN EXPLANATION OF WHAT I MEAN

    LOL man. I also followed with an explanation of what I meant about your explanation so there :)

    That’s right, you don’t. Certainly won’t stop you piling-on though, that’s for sure.

    More LOL, this from a guy who feels compelled to involve himself in every topic on this blog. And considering the above pattern that I mentioned seems to be your MO for years now, I’d get a little tired of it too. In fact I already am.

    Edit: The above pattern mentioned refers to your unnecessary and inconsiderate jabs as a guest on an American blog, followed by the, “I have explained it away so what’s the deal?” bullshit. This pattern more so than your need to butt in to every topic and about how we should operate here foreign or domestic.

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  95. sahrab

    And if thats true, the “evidence” of doubt is questionable, then the opposition to the Death Penalty is NOT because someone is being put to Death.

    If so, Brewer would have as many Anti-Death Penalty supporters as Davis.

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  96. CzarChasm

    Kimpost, you apparently can’t read any better than CM feigns bygones being bygones. The date that post was made, May 4th, I was into my sixth day of a blackout. I just checked, and bin Laden was killed two days before on the 2nd. When I say “blackout,” I mean all of North Alabama was without power. You can Google it for yourself, all five transmission lines out of Brown’s Ferry Nuclear Plant were destroyed. All the radio stations were on emergency power, generators, just like the rest of us who prepared for just such events. And you can damn well bet all that canned food and water came in handy you imbecile. We didn’t need the ammo this time, but yeah, you’re damn right it’s stockpiled too. You can ridicule me for being a prepper all you want, but the fact that we were prepared is the reason that our fairly major damage, and lack of open working gas stations and grocery stores, wasn’t a big deal for us.

    But tell me genius, how much news do you think we got under those conditions? How much time do you think radio stations devoted to national news? Almost zero. I didn’t even hear about bin Laden being killed until the 5th when our power came back on and our cable company got back up and running. I was busy with other things, as were all of our neighbors spread across four states and about 35,000 sq. miles.

    Lighthearted my ass. You all know where I live. That tornado swarm was a hundred-year event, and it made world news. For the first seven days, you probably knew more about what was going on outside of my immediate area than I did! Uncaring, unconcerned and blackhearted is what you leftist bastards are. That video was trolling, plain and simple. Hell, CM even said so himself in that thread! He was just trying to draw me out if I was lurking. That’s what he said dimwit. So take your pabulum-puking, CM-nut-licking lighthearted bullshit and stick it where the sun don’t shine.

    I still don’t care what you think about our laws, but you know that my easiest button to push is when you start lying. So you pushed it and goaded me into a little name-calling and profanity. Congrats. Desired effect obtained. Now piss off.

    CC

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  97. Kimpost

    Wait, did I just make you cry? You’ve got my permission to buy yourself a comforting survival-knife.

    I had no idea whatsoever about you or your situation. And had CM known, I’m sure he would not have posted his little joke. Now he did post it, but even then, it was more of a light-hearted jab in a thread which really was about the killing of OBL. The joke had nothing to do with you possibly being hit by a tornado. It. Just. Hadn’t.

    I’d suggest that you’d do the normal thing, which would be to accept above as fact, instead of going off on a rampage, thinking about us as being evil (leftists! – wtf that’s got to do with anything?), because we really should have known. One of your few real supporters from MW saw the joke. She too saw “you” in that Youtube-clip.

    You can think that I’m lying all day long, but that doesn’t make it so. I’ve never lied at MW, or here for that matter. I might have been wrong on occasion, but I’ve never intentionally lied.

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  98. JimK

    STOP.

    I will wipe this fucking place clean before I let all of this bullshit continue. I will burn everything and salt the fucking earth.

    Or just ban the people that make it impossible to enjoy the blog.

    HEED THESE WORDS: My patience is not just at an end, it is gone. Exhausted. Finis. It is an ex-patience.

    The next person to start an endless flame war full of old baggage gets a one-way ticket to GetTheFuckOutOfMyYardsville.

    Test me. Go ahead.

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  99. CzarChasm

    One of your few real supporters from MW saw the joke. She too saw “you” in that Youtube-clip.

    Pure projection on her part, as she went on to say that if she had that equipment, she would likely do something similar. I admit though, it stung a little bit seeing her write that. Whatever.

    I, on the other hand, believe exactly what crichton expressed, that Obama blew it by making it an assassination rather than a capture. The wealth of information that guy had in his head would’ve been the richest military and/or intelligence find since we captured the Enigma during WWII. Pure and utter stupidity to let that go to waste.

    What makes what you said about CM jokin’ a lie is that the video was in conjunction with that “spiraling descent” crap, and his admission that he was just trying to draw me out of lurk mode, which I neither wanted to engage in, nor had the capability. That was dickwad trolling, and you defending it makes you no better. You sure as Hell wouldn’t have allowed me to get away with something like that directed at CM in the days after the Christ Church earthquake. I couldn’t even ask him why he wasn’t helping his own countrymen without you guys blowin’ a freakin’ gasket. Yep, trolling and nut-licking go together like CM and Kimpost. Always has.

    CC

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  100. Tripper

    I think different people are opposed to the death penalty for different reasons.
    For some it is always wrong, and for others they’re more concerned with getting it 100% right.

    I’m pretty sure you could look around and find people who were ok with the death penalty for Brewer because they believe he is guilty, and against it for Davis because they’re not convinced that he is. So for them, it’s clearly not about the punishment in general, but rather how it is applied.

    Then you’ll find others who are against both, and it wouldn’t matter how much evidence existed in either case to suggest the men were guilty.

    It’s still possible of course that you could be against both, but be more concerned about Davis than Brewer. I think it’s only natural that somebody would be more upset that a potentially innocent man had been put to death than they are when a guilty man is. This could explain the difference in reactions to both cases.

    Obviously the media plays a part too, and a story about a guy who might not be guilty plays much better than one about a white supremacist who probably was guilty.

    I’d expect there were protests about the Brewer execution, just probably not on the same level as the Davis one.

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