Out Of The Mouth Of Babes

Nothing drills down a concept to it’s essence better then child curiosity. Not only is their bullshit meter highly advanced but, without the encumbrances of political correctness to cloud their thinking, they require the straightest line possible to the truth, no circuitous primrose path distractions:

“But mommy, why do they call it the religion of peace when they want to kill all the Jews?
Why do they have only two possible outcomes for infidels, either conversion or death?
Why do they still condone honor killings and treat us girls so poorly?
Why would they worship a god that condones and requires the destruction of his own creation?
Why do they enforce blasphemy laws?
And why do they follow the teachings of a pedophile/murderer?”

Heady questions, not easily deflected and certainly worthy of a child’s curiosity. The sooner kids learn that there are bad/crazy/evil-take your pick people out there who do not think like they do, the better off they will be. Not exactly a pleasant lesson, but necessary.

Comments are closed.

  1. Kimpost

    Simple questions sometimes have difficult answers. Is it possible to teach children about that complexity? I think it is, even if it certainly is difficult to explain how religion can lead to both good and bad, or how the same religious texts have different (sometimes complete opposite) meanings to different people.

    P.S. Having seen your headline, I though the post was about blond chick gaffes. That or about something sexual.

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  2. balthazar

    I dont understand how its a difficult answer. If the majority of the Islamic world was condemning and helping to root out the people responsible for the bombings etc, it may be more difficult, until that happens it seems to me that its not that difficult at all.

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  3. Kimpost

    OK, I’m not entirely sure where you are going now, because I don’t see how religion, death and killings wouldn’t be difficult concepts to explain to a child. I’m not saying it isn’t doable, but it certainly isn’t easy.

    We aren’t discussing our views on a religion here. As informed adults we understand the distinctions between radicals and moderates. We understand them so well, that we can ignore outlining them. Children, which we are discussing now, not so much.

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  4. balthazar

    When the “moderates” dont condemn or do anything about what the “radicals” are doing IN THE NAME OF THEIR SHARED religion. theres NO difference between them. Hence its not a difficult question. They are LYING when they call it a religion of peace.

    Now those that DO condemn the attacks and bombings and DO something about it, thru education or informing on radicals, they are trying to CHANGE the religion. Their version of Islam I could get behind. Too bad they are in the extreme minority.

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  5. Kimpost

    I still contend that answering questions from children regarding extreme violence and death, and reasons thereof, isn’t easy.

    We are discussing children, not our respective views on Islam. Few responsible adults would call Islam a religion of hate in front of children, especially without explaining the nuances first. Children need to understand that their moderate Muslim friends don’t want to see them killed.

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  6. richtaylor365 *

    Is it possible to teach children about that complexity?

    Well, depending the child and the age, but generally a good start is the explanation that there are in fact bad people out there, the reasons that they are bad (vegetarian diet, too much Olbermann, never learned self respect or responsibility in life) at this point is not important. Later on a further explanation between Muslim radicals and moderates can be offered ,”You see Suzy, the radicals want to kill you because you are an infidel, but the moderates, being Sharia complaint and all, they will offer you the chance to convert first, before they kill you”.

    I though the post was about blond chick gaffes. That or about something sexual.

    Swedes

    I thought maybe the “Muslim Bomber Inc” was a tip off, but now that I know my target audience, we can certainly go that route as well.

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  7. loserlame

    Children need to understand that their moderate Muslim friends don’t want to see them killed.

    …and their moderate Muslim friends should be the ones to tell them that.

    I was told by my own parents that “our” people were nice, too. Maybe even nicer than the ones I knew.
    My parents stopped living among “their” people not long after their children left home to live with the “other” people, again.

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  8. CM

    What age are we talking?

    I’m certainly not teaching my kids that “{certain group} is evil”. I think that’s appalling. When the time is right I’ll explain the concept of religion (I’ve already kinda started) and how there are different religions, and that even different people within each religion believe in different things. But I’m not going to equate religion with evil when they’re only starting to grasp the concept of religion itself. There are plenty of evil people out there, with all kinds of motivations. I’m not going to have my kids think that all evil people are Muslims. Or paedos. Or any specific group.

    Rich you make it sound like kids are ‘speaking the truth’ (because you know, that’s what kids do), but any kid coming out with your quotes are doing so because that’s precisely what they’ve been told.

    I do think Balthazar’s concept is interesting – about there being no difference between the violent extremists and the moderates who don’t actively try to stop the extremists. At the risk of going all Godwin, does that mean almost all Germans during WW2 were the same as Nazi’s? If Christians haven’t actively spoken out against abortion-clinic bombers, does that mean they’re the same as abortion-clinic bombers? To me it’s far from that simple, but if pushed I’d say ‘no’.

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  9. richtaylor365 *

    My apologies CM, this was pretty much a running gag post. The premise was kind of cute, an adorable little girl and a flummoxed mom trying to explain why anyone would blow up airplanes. You didn’t really think a 6 year old would be asking questions about honor killings, blasphemy laws and Sharia compliance, did you?

    A little creative license for the sake of levity, I do that from time to time, didn’t mean to ruffle any sensibilities.

    But I still think Kimpost is a perv, not that that is bad mind you, just sayin’

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  10. Kimpost

    ”You see Suzy, the radicals want to kill you because you are an infidel, but the moderates, being Sharia complaint and all, they will offer you the chance to convert first, before they kill you”.

    :)

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  11. Poosh

    Fallacy One:

    “Islam is a religion”

    It’s not. It’s a religion and a political ideology (to claim it is only the former is an act of contradiction) designed to be implemented at the city-state level with the assumption of an international objective.

    There is no “pay Caesar what is Caesars” in Islam.

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  12. CM

    Hahaha, I see. No worries. No apology necessary.
    It didn’t help that the video didn’t load at all for me (it’s just a blank white space where the video should be – any assistance on what cache I should clear or knob I should pull would be greatly appreciated!).

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  13. Seattle Outcast

    But I’m not going to equate religion with evil

    Why not? I mean, religion IS evil – just like Stalin, socialized medicine, Tom Cruise and clowns…..

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  14. CM

    I certainly wouldn’t disagree with some of that!
    I’d rather my kids have a decent understanding of individual concepts before I start linking them.

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  15. CM

    Cheers. It’s an ongoing problem on this particular PC. Videos embedded here almost always never show up. I’m sure there’s something I could do to make it work properly, just no idea what.

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  16. richtaylor365 *

    Anytime I post something with a video and you can’t get it, shoot me a pm and I’ll post the link. Without seeing the video first, how could any of this make sense?

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  17. AlexInCT

    Well said Poosh. Everyone seems to forget that Islam isn’t just a religion, its a political ideology. That’s why it can’t undergo any reformation of substance, as other religions have, and become less militant. There is only one outcome that’s allowed – we all bow to them, not god, but them – and until then they kill as many of those that get in the way.

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  18. AlexInCT

    Check your interent settings. You might be blocking it because of the security level you have it on. Or your PC might simply have broser problems that make it unable to recognize embeded video. What are you using?

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  19. CM

    Thanks Alex and Section8, will have a look at your suggestions.

    Using IE8. Security level is on “Medium-low”.

    Will reinstall Adobe Flash first and see if that works.
    And then might try Chrome if it doesn’t.

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  20. Mississippi Yankee

    If the Koran teaches it’s followers the their goal is to:
    1) convert the world
    2)kill all who resist
    3)subjugate those that don’t resist yet will not fight

    then logic would seem to tell us the radical Islamist is following his religion and the moderate Muslim is the apostate.The polar opposite of just about every other religion.

    Ergo: Islam is fucking evil.
    Oh,and that little six year old girl will be someones child bride too.

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  21. Kimpost

    The problem is that “[what] the Koran teaches” is as ambiguous as “[what] the Bible teaches”. Unless we are willing to call our respective interpretations of religious scripture and traditions for “the right interpretation” then we’ll have to accept that religious texts mean different things to different people.

    There are hundreds of millions of Muslims who don’t believe that they need to kill or even deceive or convert infidels. They find their beliefs to be in sync with the Koran and the Hadiths. We can say that they are wrong all we want, just as we can say that Catholics who use contraceptives are wrong, but what good would that make? I find it pointless.

    Don’t get me wrong. I consider myself agnostic, bordering on atheist. Religion is something worthy of criticism. But. Many people of faith, Christians as well as Muslims, find comfort and spiritual guidance from their respective religions. More often than not in benign ways. I find it a bit amusing to see how some of us are willing to double down on what constitutes the true nature of Islam, and how their scripture and traditions really should be interpreted. As if questions of that kind ever could be answered logically.

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  22. InsipiD

    Seriously, don’t use any version of IE for anything that you don’t have to. There are a tiny number of pages that only work on IE, but for the security of your computer and sanity, use Opera or Firefox (or Chrome, Safari, ANYTHING) instead of IE for primary surfing. I don’t care for Chrome’s UI, but I’m sure it’s ok.

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  23. Poosh

    Yes, ‘liberal muslims’ are Muslims who believe they are Muslims, follow many of the good, positive tenants of Islam (there are plenty of good laws in the Koran, make no mistake!) but reject or are not even aware of the many evil negative parts of the Koran. You could argue they are not actually Muslim. In the same way I laugh at Mormons (no offence).

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  24. Poosh

    The point is you can use your Reason to logically interpret (within reason) both the Bible and the Koran – aside from what others believe it says. You can be objective. You can use theological skills and methods. When you do this the Bible and the Koran are completely different books and religions. They have many, MANY contradictory teachings.

    It is not a pointless exercise to point out to someone their religion is not what they think it is and that they should be authentic, and honest – and not to perform self-contradictions etc. It is not pointless to ask people to use Reason and Logic. The Bible is very difficult to follow because at the end of the day it was written by multiple peoples and – on top of this – selected by humans, i.e men chose which books go in, and which don’t.

    With the Koran you do not have this. It’s the word of God. Written by one guy (apparently) – that’s it. You either follow and absorb it all, or you’re not a real Muslim. Can’t say the same to Christians because of the history of the religion and the Bible’s construction.

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  25. loserlame

    I observe the kids (Americans, but also blacks and Arabs) at our community pool and can’t help but notice how they all act a bit differently. Just like the adults they turn into (unfortunately), only far more honestly.
    Theres the shy types, the rambunctious, etc. and, if left to their own devices, would surely form some kind of familiar-looking government and religion.

    If and when they’re ready to hear the Truth is hard to say, as there is no such thing to tell. “Trust but verify” is the noble Russian saying (cynically stolen by Reagan for oil) I slyly preach to my own.

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  26. Kimpost

    I find objective interpretation of scripture to be close to impossible. You can study the religious texts, but you can’t apply your findings on individuals.

    Unlike you I accept Mormons as Christians, mainly because they say they are. That’s the key element here. If you go way overboard, by for instance suggesting that Jesus Christ never existed, he didn’t die for our sins, and that God really is a spaghetti monster, while still calling yourself a Christian, then I would probably disagree. But that’s about how far it has got to. And even then, if the followers grew into millions, and given enough time, I would probably accept them as Christians too.

    Hundreds of millions of Christians have no problems with homosexuality, yet many Christians believe that homosexuality is being condemned in both testaments. Objective logic might even lead us to agree with the critical view, but a proponent could just point to any given passage and say “love thy neighbour trumps that one”. Kiss logic good bye and say hello to beliefs, the core of religion.

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  27. loserlame

    Religious texts all look pretty good, the persistent problem seems to be how they’re interpreted by humans to suit their selfish needs. “Ordinary” laws were created for this reason, duplicating the religious meaning of whats right and wrong, yet folks still do whatever suits them best.

    Are law books then not evil, too, pursuing an agenda? Sure enough, it depends on who wrote the laws, eh.

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  28. Poosh

    I slightly agree with you but disagree also. I know you can kiss logic goodbye to someone who doesn’t care. You can’t convince someone who is not logical indeed.

    You can lay out most religious texts and lay out what the doctrines are etc. You can create zones of conflict as you point out etc. We can see if there really are contradictions etc. Clearly Genesis offers two separate accounts of the creation which he will have to answer (which he will not be able to do unless he accepts the truth that the genesis early accounts are based on much older creation “myths”.) Etc. etc. The Bible will always be a hard cookie but the Koran is much easier due to how it was written and the thought gone behind it… which is a problem, the Koran is an almost perfect text if you understand it as a book written towards complete domination.

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  29. Poosh

    It’s the culture sadly. Accepting different cultures is all well and good, but allowing inferior ones that destroy individuals, to grow in a country, is asking for trouble.

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  30. richtaylor365 *

    Hundreds of millions of Christians have no problems with homosexuality, yet many Christians believe that homosexuality is being condemned in both testaments.

    But the difference it that those Christians have no duty to kill the homosexuals, unlike Muslims. Sharia law is not ambiguous when it comes to homosexuality.

    And to tell you the truth, I have little patience for apologists that whitewash violence and murder that happens every single day in the world in the name of Islam by ,”Well, all religions have their nutters so they are all equally capable of violence”.

    Regarding the ambiguity of religions, sure, they all have passages that may be hard to understand (angels dancing on the heads of a pin and camels going through the eye of needles and so forth) but where you separate all the other religions from Islam is that all the others will condemn violence in it’s name, as anathema to it’s teachings, not Islam. All other religions have no claim on this earthly world (render unto Caesar what is Caesars), not Islam, they have a holy duty to convert all governments to Sharia.

    Christians live by one simple rule as commanded by Jesus ,”Love God and love your fellow man”, that’s it.

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  31. Kimpost

    But the difference it that those Christians have no duty to kill the homosexuals

    Some actually think they do have that duty. A nutty select few, but numbers have nothing to do with the logics of the situation, do they?

    […] unlike Muslims. Sharia law is not ambiguous when it comes to homosexuality.

    But it is, according to hundreds of millions of Muslims who don’t think homosexuals should be killed. Not all interpret Sharia as gospel. Unless you are suggesting that their reasoning goes something like this: “Sure, the Koran and the Hadiths state that we should kill all homosexuals, but I’m not going to follow that part”.

    That’s not how it normally works. Instead religious people choose to interpret scripture so that the moral conflict doesn’t appear. “God didn’t mean it like that”. That’s why you can have openly homosexual priests or homosexual Muslims.

    And to tell you the truth, I have little patience for apologists that whitewash violence and murder that happens every single day in the world in the name of Islam by ,”Well, all religions have their nutters so they are all equally capable of violence”.

    Well, I think we are equally capable of violence, but the violence differs in numbers. There are many more violent Muslim fundamentalists, than dito Christians. Nobody’s trying to hide that fact. And I wouldn’t apologize for religious violence, ever. There’s no need. I would however object to portraying a religion, any religion, as bad or evil, based on the actions of some of its followers. Especially not since the law (scripture and traditions) pretty much says whatever people want them to say.

    Christians live by one simple rule as commanded by Jesus ,”Love God and love your fellow man”, that’s it.

    Fine, that’s your interpretation. I accept that, as I would accept most others. But I would also accept a Muslim saying that Islam was about “Loving God and your fellow man”.

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  32. loserlame

    I would however object to portraying a religion, any religion, as bad or evil, based on the actions of some of its followers.

    How about countries?

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  33. loserlame

    That’s why you can have openly homosexual priests or homosexual Muslims.

    In which Muslim countries do these live?

    I probably posted this years ago.

    BERLIN: Six men whirled faster and faster in the center of the nightclub, arms slung over one another’s shoulders, performing a traditional circle dance popular in Turkey and the Middle East.

    Nothing unusual, given the German capital’s large Muslim population.

    But most of the people filling the dance floor Saturday at the club SO36 in the Kreuzberg neighborhood were gay, lesbian or bisexual, and of Turkish or Arab background. They were there for the monthly club night known as Gayhane, an all-too-rare opportunity to merge their immigrant cultures and their sexual identities.

    European Muslims, so often portrayed one-dimensionally as rioters, honor killers or terrorists, live diverse lives, most of them trying to get by and to have a good time. That is more difficult if one is both Muslim and gay.

    http://www.religionnewsblog.com/20249/gay-muslism

    Gays go home!

    But gay men and lesbians from Muslim families say they face extraordinary discrimination at home. A survey of roughly 1,000 young men and women in Berlin, released in September and widely cited in the German press, found much higher levels of homophobia among Turkish youth.
    “A mother who wishes death for her son, what kind of mother is that?” he asked, his eyes momentarily filling with tears.

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  34. Kimpost

    How about countries?

    Countries? In daily discourse we often equate countries with their regimes. In that regard I probably hate Saudi Arabia. But as you probably understand I don’t really hate the country or its population.

    In which Muslim countries do these live?

    What’s a Muslim country? The people I’m talking about normally have difficulties living openly in totalitarian theocracies. If I were a gay Muslim, wanting to live openly, and had a chance to choose as of where to live my life, I would go for a western democracy.

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  35. loserlame

    “A mother who wishes death for her son, what kind of mother is that?” he asked, his eyes momentarily filling with tears.

    Cmon, Westerners do that too.

    “The answer is not to replace homophobia with Islamophobia,” Simon said, pointing out that homophobia is also higher among Russian immigrants and in other, less urban parts of Germany.

    Not what I heard and saw. Russians were Europes true friends during the Cold War. And immigrant Turks added rich and ancient culture the other occupying force, the US, has always lacked

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  36. loserlame

    The people I’m talking about normally have difficulties living openly in totalitarian theocracies

    Turkey is hardly such a country. Its been trying to become a EU member for a while now. Sure, they invaded Cyrpus back in 74 and won’t let Kurds be Kurds, but by and large its a

    rising power with a vibrant, free economy and a U.S. ally that aspires to join the European Union, Turkey is held up as an example of marrying Islam and democracy and has been an oasis of stability in a region convulsed by “Arab Spring” uprisings.

    If they get mad over the EUs rejecting them as peers and turn to Iranian style rule, do I blame the EU or Islam? Why not both?

    People speaking the same language struggle to communicate; I find it arrogant that Kurds keep to their own kind

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  37. Kimpost

    Turkey is not totalitarian. But it does have democratic and humanitarian issues. Kurds being one of them. Which is one of the reasons they aren’t members yet. Another reason is racism towards Turks amongst current EU members. Personally I welcome them, but I am also for using the process as leverage for improving their system.

    Regardless. Turks have more problems with accepting homosexuality than Holland or Germany has. This could be blamed on Islam, and I would partly agree, but doing it without disclaimers, would be making things too easy. Values do not come from religion alone, even if anti-gay-religion’s certainly do not help. Values are inherited, and are as such deeply rooted into the culture. Breaking values take time, sometimes generations.

    A couple of centuries ago Swedes would have thrown homosexuals into the woods.Today they can marry and adopt children, which doesn’t mean that homosexuals have an easy time in Sweden. It’s still problematic. I imagine that it will be better still in another hundred years – or two.

    Give it time and Islam (even in the Middle East) will become as watered down as Christianity is in the west. This process will pick up speed with the spread of democracy. The end result is inevitable. Fundamentalism has no place in today’s society.

    If they get mad over the EUs rejecting them as peers and turn to Iranian style rule, do I blame the EU or Islam? Why not both?

    Blame the people behind the coup first and foremost. After that I’m sure there will be plenty of blame to throw around. EU for not accepting them as members. NATO for not pressuring them enough. Throw tribal values inherited over generations into the mix too. Of which Islam plays a large role. And if it happened through legitimate elections, why not blame the Turks as well?

    Incidentally I can’t see it happening. Turks in general, have learned to appreciate their freedoms too much. They would have to be invaded and conquered, and that’s not going to happen…

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  38. CM

    Personally, I don’t believe I have the ability (or the right) to tell people that they are incorrectly practicing their religion. To me, that would seem to be very arrogant.

    From what I can tell, the overwhelming vast majority of Muslims (almost all) consider the extremist take on Islam as a perversion of what it actually means. As with any religious text, context is paramount. As far as I am aware, the Koran and the Hadith are explicitly against violence. Or being untrthful. The only exception is where one’s life is at stake (i.e. it’s saying “don’t be stupid about this, if your life is at stake, then of course you can use violence to defend yourself……and if your life is at stake because you are a Muslim, then by all means deny you are a Muslim if it saves your life”).

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  39. loserlame

    http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/06/15/my-take-overcoming-the-black-church-tradition-of-homophobia/

    By Bishop Carlton Pearson,

    Homophobia is hardly unique to the African-American community. It’s a social malady that’s due largely to the influence of fear based-theologies, particularly fundamentalist Christianity, Islam and Judaism, all of which grow out of the Abrahamic tradition.

    When something or someone is perceived as being despised by someone’s God, the worshippers of that God tend to despise and hate that person or thing as well. When given the opportunity, adherents act out against them with the same violence they presume God would use. That can happen through literal violence or in other ways – including the use of comedy.

    I’m referring to Tracy Morgan’s reported an anti-gay rant at a recent show, during which he said“he’d stab his son to death if he said he was gay.” Morgan has apologized for the rant and this week phoned a major gay rights group, vowing to return to Tennessee to apologize to those who heard it.

    Preachers, too, often issue vicious denunciations of homosexuality.

    African-Americans have always viewed male homosexuality as more of a sign of weakness than evil. This stems back to slave times, when male and female slaves were randomly abused sexually, usually by men.

    In more than 30 years of pastoring and dealing with pastors, I have observed that often when a public figure, secular or religious, shouts out in anger about or against a particular subject, it’s usually a sign of the inner turmoil of the person crying out around that very issue. I’ve discovered that many who angrily denounce homosexuality have latent homosexual tendencies or fantasies themselves and fear them – or are actually quite conflicted about the issue.

    projection bias. Go on youtube and criticize a video of Bono and lo! white boy fans rally to their god’s defense “Bono is God Bono is God fag nigger die” So there are in fact a lot more “radicals” out there than CM will admit. and adoring Bono as God isn’t necessary save your life from anyone. Save, say, radical Islam

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  40. loserlame

    ttp://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/06/14/muslim-leader-says-violence-in-nigeria-is-political-not-religious/

    On a side note –

    Muslim leader says violence in Nigeria is political, not religious

    With some 70 million followers, Muhammad Sa’ad Abubakar is the spiritual leader of Nigeria’s Muslim population.

    As heir to the 200-year-old throne of West Africa’s 19th-century Caliphate Empire, Abubakar is one of the most influential traditional rulers in the region.

    Four years after he was appointed Sultan of Sokoto, he reigns at a time of deepening religious division in Nigeria, a nation almost evenly divided between Muslims and Christians.

    It was already pretty tense back in the early 90s when us godless Kraut infidels painted the Sokoto home he lives in now. Of course, I’d argue that its all just people being people.

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