Marine Down

It’s crazy week for me, but I thought I’d throw this out there. A two-time veteran of Iraq gets home from working the graveyard shift at a mine. His wife tells him people are outside and a man is at the window. He gets his AR-15. The SWAT teams pumped 60 bullets into him. For paramedics to wait an hour until they can tend him.

Claims that he shot at them first have now been disproven (his safety was still on). Needles to say there were no drugs in the house or anything like that. Right now, the sheriff’s office isn’t talking about what they were doing.

This has to stop. The tendency to bring SWAT teams on each and every raid has got to stop. I know the Indiana Supreme Court says that he doesn’t have the right to defend his property. But this wasn’t even that kind of incident. It’s not even clear that he knew these were cops.

If you call out the SWAT team every time you want to search a property, you’re going to end up within innocent people on the ground. This has to stop.

His name was Jose Guerena.

Comments are closed.

  1. JimK

    This has to stop.

    I agree. But it won’t, because at the worst the trigger-happy cops (not all cops, I’m being specific here) that commit these kinds of outright murders are maybe fired and sued civilly. If that. Often not even that.

    Start jailing them as if they were citizens that committed a crime – which they are. See how fast SWAT gets relegated to the seldom-used tool it should be. And ALL departments nationwide should institute a ban on calling citizenry “civilians” and themselves something other than “civilian.” That mentality does absolutely no good at all for cops or citizens, IMHO. It’s bad PR and fosters a bigger us/them divide.

    BTW, what do we have to thank for every department with more than 3 members having a SWAT team? The “War on ___fill in the blank___.” That “war on” shit has to stop too.

    Thumb up 1

  2. Rann

    Jesus wept, what the fuck.

    You know, I know that SWAT guys probably do deal with really dangerous people. But if it was soldiers in Iraq taking down a fucking insurgent I somehow imagine that shooting him sixty times would still be considered just a tad excessive. How did they even get that many bullets into him without just standing over the unmoving body and emptying a few clips? Is that what they did? Holy fuck.

    Thumb up 2

  3. Kimpost

    I agree with you guys. News like this is just heart breaking, and sickening. I saw a TV special on SWAT team inflation (can’t remember the name of it), and it was disturbing to say the least. The SWAT mania needs to stop. Probably the war on drugs as well. Just calling it war, can lead to this kind of shit, in my opinion.

    Thumb up 0

  4. JimK

    Let’s make some assumptions, and gun guys, correct me if I go astray:

    1. Actual assault rifles with 30 round magazines, likely on single or burst, but not full auto.
    2. At least 3, possibly 5 team members. 5 makes more sense given the amount of lead.
    3. 4 pulls on a 3-round burst for 5 men = 60 rounds. You can do that in less than 3 seconds. Assuming that there were some misses and maybe it was 5 pulls. Or one or two guys were set to auto and fired a whole magazine in five seconds. Or there were more than 5. A total of 71 rounds were fired.

    Number of rounds fired always sounds scary, but it’s not really a thing IMHO. If someone comes into my house and I pull a gun, I’m shooting until it runs dry. Some guns that means 15 rounds. Some 12. Some 7. Some 6. Hell, I might reload if anyone is still moving. Shoot till they stop.

    Without knowing the number of SWAT members on this raid we have no way of judging if this is an excessive number of rounds or not.

    Just being fair.

    Thumb up 0

  5. richtaylor365

    I totally agree with the prevailing sentiment here, this whole affair is very sad and it appears that a number of agencies dropped the ball and are liable, but, let me just say that it is important to get all the facts, and what I mean by this is that if I had a dollar for every time the local papers got an investigation that I was working on wrong. Hopefully the FBI or another independent agency will be called in to investigate this, somebody (or many people) really screwed up.

    Thumb up 1

  6. Rann

    Alright, fair enough.

    But then the problem comes in positioning. What sort of positioning would have required all five men to unload multiple pulls into him or that they felt that was necessary?

    Even if we assume crack timing and that he was visible through a window, and the room had two entries, that means that at the same moment two guys rush him and one is watching through the window, and all three of them decide to empty multiple pulls into him the moment the AR-15 so much as twitches in someone’s direction. So where would the other two guys come from? Was this house big enough for them to come through two-by-two? Did they surround him first, in which case it seems like they weren’t that afraid of the rifle, and then why would all of them feel the need to fire? Two, even three guys opening fire to put down one threat I can picture in my mind, but five guys unloading multiple bursts into a single target sounds more like a firing squad.

    I’m not saying this as an absolute, because we don’t have the actual information about the positioning and situation. (And the police department certainly seems to want to avoid giving up said information until the bitter end.) But I’m having trouble coming up with even a hypothetical that would require five guys at once to unload multiple short bursts into one guy not wearing body armor to assure themselves that he was down and no longer a threat.

    Thumb up 0

  7. Seattle Outcast

    SWAT teams need to be eliminated. There is, quite honestly, almost zero need for them, even in large metropolises, even less so in every suburb and wide-spot on the road. Of course, they have become a status symbol for a police force, and once created must be used to justify their existence. The gung-ho, paramilitary training and attitude, more appropriate for a wet-work team taking out terrorists, has zero place in a police force.

    They have become the main tool of police oppression of the public they are, ironically, sworn to protect and serve.

    Thumb up 1

  8. Rann

    Just thought of something. On one of the greatest villains our country has ever known, we used two bullets. On one of our own heroes, we used sixty.

    Even if there’s some sort of plausible explanation in all this, that’s some irony to drown in.

    Thumb up 2

  9. HARLEY

    1. Actual assault rifles with 30 round magazines, likely on single or burst, but not full auto.

    actually there are probably M-4s which are single fire and full auto.

    Number of rounds fired always sounds scary, but it’s not really a thing IMHO

    the hell it is. There are supposed to be “Trained Professionals” One of the basic skills taught in any carbine class is trigger control, even on with the selector on full auto they can fire bursts of 2-3 rounds with out any problems.
    Expending 71 rounds on a single target, with 60 hitting from 5 men, comes to 14 rnds a piece, that is half a mag per officer. Trigger control was not in evidence here. sloppy shooting and lack of leadership is. If fewer officer actual did the shooting, then the situation is far worse.
    It also sems that the Sheriffs department is NOT relseing any information as to why there was a raid and what they found.
    This no knock raid madness is a result of the fucking mindless “war on drugs” and the police state attitude that many politicians and officers have.

    im gonna stop now before i say something stupid.

    Thumb up 0

  10. hist_ed

    They shot someone for having a gun in his own home. Even if you ahve a warrant and have reason to believe you are facing a criminal, you shouldn’t shoot unless there is a threat.

    Shit, if I heard a bunch of people outside the windows of my house, I’d be armed to meet them.

    What we really need is helmet cameras for all SWAT operations. And if they just cut this guy down, they need to be prosecuted for murder.

    Thumb up 0

  11. HARLEY

    Remember ED, you really do not have the right to resist the police.

    Anyone who is not a officer, and is armed IS a threat.

    Oh and cameras and video can go haywire, ask the family of Erik Scott.

    Thumb up 1