Some economic perspective..

Everyone seems to be focused on the great news that bin Laden was finally sent to hell by SEAL team 6 a couple of days ago, and that’s awesome, but there are other things we should not lose track of like the fact that our economy is in a death spiral as government keeps spending far beyond what it can afford and the anti-business policies of the left keep putting pressure on any kind of bounce back. Things look real bad, but most of us are not realizing how bad because they are hiding it. The dollar is getting hammered, the cost of energy is out of control, and inflation, real inflation, not the crap they are hiding behind, is over 10%;

the reason the CPI is losing credibility is that, as economist John Williams tirelessly points out, it’s a bogus index. The way inflation is calculated by the Bureau of Labor Statistics has been “improved” 24 times since 1978. If the old methods were still used, the CPI would actually be 10 percent. Yes, folks, double-digit inflation is back. Pretty soon you’ll be able to figure out the real inflation rate just by moving the decimal point in the core CPI one place to the right.

It’s not only the BLS that speaks with a forked tongue. Members of the Council on Foreign Relations last week heard Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner say: “Our policy has been and will always be … that a strong dollar is in the interest of the country.” Fact: the dollar has depreciated relative to other currencies by 17 percent since 2009.

We are getting hammered from both ends. The dollar is losing its buying power as it devalues, and the cost of everything is going up and going up at a scary pace. And it is becoming obvious that this is happening because of either a determined strategy to do so or as a real world effect of stupid collectivist dream strategies that simply don’t work in the real world. In the first case we have a government that is actively destroying the wealth in America so it can keep spending, borrowing, and growing, all so the collectivist’s agenda can keep moving on. The later simply is the real world responding to the fact the economic beliefs of the left are insane and unrealistic. In either case we will end up with misery and economic ruin: the destruction of any middle class, which is BTW whom they claim they are doing all this crap for. The fact is that we are running out of other people’s money, and this whole grand collectivist scheme is crashing down. It’s not sustainable, and no amount of confiscation of other people’s wealth or pretense that all wealth is shared equally will change that. This system, portending to try to seek “social justice” does nothing of the sort. In fact, all it serves as is a system to punish the success of those that the ruling class, the self appointed guardians of the downtrodden and the ones doing most of the trodding down, don’t like, for whatever reason.

I make a pretty decent chunk of change, and I am seeing how my money doesn’t go nearly as far as it used to. Lucky for me I am not loaded with crazy debt either. But, I can not imagine how much harder it is for people that make less than I do. And yet, so many of these people think the very people that are doing this to us all are looking out for them? Even worse, we have a media that shills for these crooks and covers constantly, all because of ideology, while the house of cards collapse aournd us. Talk about insanity.

Comments are closed.

  1. muirgeo

    Here is the problem in a nut shell.

    If you understand this graph you understand the problem and even some possible solutions.

    Alex you do not seem to understand the problem IMO and thus you have no solution. You’ve bought into the Republican talking points of what the problem is but the Republicans have no clue and are in effect protecting the holders of massive amounts of wealth. They never propose much less pass any bills that will actually help the middle class.

    You can blame this on too much spending and cut spending more…. you can blame this on too much regulation and cut regulation and you can blame this on “running out of other people’s money” and not raise taxes or even cut taxes and you will be wrong in each case. You will never address the real problem and you will only make things worse.

    Those things will do nothing to fix the problems that created the wage productiviy divergence seen in the graph. They had little to do with it. And note that the divergence started around the time Republican policy came to dominance.

    I do agree we are in big trouble and things are going to get worse as long as grid lock persist and as long as Obama and the Democrats keeps assuming they can work with the Republicans.

    Personally the policy we get is such a compromise it does nothing. But doing nothiing is good for the wealthy class.. eventually even they will suffer. I’d just assume we have a pure repulican policy so people can see how bad that is and forever baniash them from office until come to their senses. We are seeing that now as they get scolded by their own constituents for wanting to cut social security or medicare. I hope to have a true progressive policy that works so well we see a tidal shift fom centrist right to centrist left. I really believe if we had a real health care reform bill pass with universal coverage it would have been so popular that thge Democrats would become very dominant and the Republicans marginalized even more. The republicans understood this and did everything they could… as they always have … to sabatoge the effort and to protect their health insurance donors.

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  2. Seattle Outcast

    Moogoo, you don’t even understand the graph you present. Go spend a decade or two in manufacturing and get back to us after that.

    Also, if you want to see who is protecting the wealthy, see who gets paid off by the Dems for their campaign contributions.

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  3. JimK

    In fairness, I have to congratulate you for this comment. I don’t agree, but you constructed an argument and defended your position. I’m totally serious: I’m not trying to be a dick. I’m really glad to see something like this from you, and I hope to see more of it.

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  4. muirgeo

    Hey, I am a regualr guy. Deeply philosophical and deeply concerned with the world I / we are leaving our kids.

    I like others am prone to name calling when frustrated or attacked or impassioned. I really mostly want good honest debate to test my position a well as to challenge others to reconider theirs. Again through time I went from one way of thinking to anotther way and I’d like to think it was a fact based truth fnding mission that got me to this point.

    I don’t clam to have all the answer nor do I think the democratic party is anywhere near perfect. I just think dogamtic thinking and media brain washing are making us a nation of dupes and dunderheads.

    I mostly visit sites that have opposite views. That’s not to troll but to be challenged. If others don’t do the same and are uncomfortable by the issues I bring up they should consider why.

    It’s all to easy to call some one a communist or some other name rather then actually refuting their position or defending ones own.

    I am comfortabe with the positions I hold and with the will of my intent. I am good will hunting and saddened by the rarity of those likewise looking for good philosphical debate content they have all the answers.

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  5. JimK

    I mostly visit sites that have opposite views. That’s not to troll but to be challenged. If others don’t do the same and are uncomfortable by the issues I bring up they should consider why.

    BULLSHIT. You start fights. You say horrible things SPECIFICALLY about the people on this site. You make blanket generalizations in virtually EVERY post you make. You accuse libertarians, small-c conservatives and moderates of being Big R Republicans, or worse, you tell us on a regular basis that we’re all somehow responsible for the actions of people WE DON’T EVEN FUCKING LIKE.

    You are generally the first to resort to name-calling and nasty comments. You rarely use intellect and logic to construct and execute arguments, instead relying on the force of insults and nastiness in an attempt to shut your “opponents” up rather than persuade them of the wisdom of your beliefs.

    BEING SICK OF THAT BULLSHIT DOESN’T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT ANYONE ON THIS WEBSITE. IT just says that you’re the biggest asshole in a room full of assholes.

    Stop being an asshole. Just for a little while. I’m willing to bet that you find a lot more back-and-forth debate of ideas and a lot less “Oh go fuck yourself.”

    Give it a try. What do you have to lose?

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  6. Seattle Outcast

    I, for one, would be extremely happy to see something other than a series of graphs, generally out of context, that purport to reveal some sort of “truth” about taxes and economic policies. Oh, and an end to blatant copy/pastes from other sites that aren’t sourced.

    Muirgeo, despite his passion on the subjects, has readily admitted to not understanding economics, and appears to have little to no knowledge of recent history going back to the beginning of the 20th century. Both of these things matter a great deal in being able to present and/or defend a political position, and when they are obviously lacking in a post, they invite ridicule and a blanket dismissing of everything posted. Hence the troll-level name calling and general accusations of eating live babies for dinner.

    Muirgeo, if you want to argue your positions, you need to present them with logic and data, not just passion.

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  7. AlexInCT *

    Alex you do not seem to understand the problem IMO and thus you have no solution

    .

    Your refusal to see the facts for what they are doesn’t result in me not understanding the problem. I understand the problem totally. Collectivism, the whole concept of “social justice” is a fabricated pile of bullshit by one group to displace the people they see are in power, then use the wealth of others and the power of government to entrench themselves permanently in power. The shit works for a while until the economy simply implodes when nobody is producing anything of real value anymore but cash is simply moved around with the government bureaucracy as the middle man, playing god, picking the winners and losers, based on whom they like, and whom they don’t. They confound simpletons into thinking they have a right to other people’s work by cultivating the idea that anyone with more than them had to have stolen what they have and thus is deserving of having it taken away for the supposed greater good. This idiotic philosophy is the problem.

    You’ve bought into the Republican talking points of what the problem is

    No I have not. And too many of the old school republicans were quite at ease with this shit because they figured out they too gained more power if government became bigger and people more dependant on it. They need to go too.

    but the Republicans have no clue and are in effect protecting the holders of massive amounts of wealth.

    How many damned times do I have to shove the proof that the really wealthy are all demcorats under your nose huh, Moogoo? Seriously, the wealthiest people in this country seem all to be demcorats, all to have their money stashed somewhere else, and all tax delinquents. The biggest corporations on the take all are monolithically democrat supporters. These are facts that only some insane dude would dare ignore.

    They never propose much less pass any bills that will actually help the middle class.

    Yeah, because we all know that unless government is confiscating things from the evil crooked rich – but of course not the ones that the demcorats like – and then handing them out to loafers that do nothing, well in return for votes, so maybe they do have a job, its not good for the middle class? Here is some news for you Moogoo: at the current pace the left is indebting our children, printing and borrowing money we don’t have, to keep programs that they pretend are there to help the middle class, we will soon have a complete and total collapse. Then there will not e a middle class. We will have an elite group and desperately poor serfs. Of course, that’s fine by you because then more people will be just as miserable as you, and that’s the real motivator behind the elft’s insanity.

    Get a freaking clue please.

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  8. richtaylor365

    Nice graph Muirgeo, you pay a dyslexic 6 year old with a stolen etchasketch to draw that for you? And what do you think it means anyway? So productivity is outpacing wages, that is what happens when industries advance and innovate. Joe’s Widget Factory on the corner use to pay 10 bucks an hour to have one laborer make 5 widgets an hour, he then bought a machine that makes a 100 widgets an hour and pays the same laborer the same wage to operate it, wages remain constant but productivity rises. Is this hard for you to grasp? Intel pays its engineers X amount in salary and those same engineers churn out 10 times the amount of micro chips that the did just a few years ago because the technology is better. Yes, their base salaries go up but not in proportion to their productivity. Your graph is meaningless, much like most of your comments here.

    Oh, and I really liked the lame attempt at deprecation ,”I’m just a regular guy that likes good honest debate”. Jim pretty much nailed that one done.

    Each time you “test” a premise here, it fails because 1)you are not honest with yourself or us (I voted for Reagan, twice, although I’m against everything he stood for), and 2)Your tired old stratagem of class warfare, the rich need to pay more and unass some of that wealth for us regular folk, makes you out to be a whinny Marxist who can’t make it on his own, so you covet the property of those that can, pretty sad really.

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  9. muirgeo

    First are you seriously interested in this discussion?

    You can criticize the quality of the graph but it’s validity is NOT in question and it is perfectly sufficient to make the point the needs to be made.

    You made a good point on production increases and wages but you apparently think that is as far as it needs to be considered.

    You need to consider first that in the past wages and productivity rose together. So why the change now? Why the divergence?

    Then you need to consider what does it mean that workers can in effect be paid less because fewer are needed. You need to think what the global implications of that are. Or even the implications for a local economy.

    But to say the graph is meaningless is simply saying you don’t understand it’s implications. It has great meaning…great significance. Behind it lies the proof that market fundamentalist are wrong.

    As far as my ability to make it I am in the top 2 or 3 % of wage earners and will retire at age 59.5 years of age very comfortably.

    I am not here worried about my future. I have it made. I am worried about my children’s future.

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  10. muirgeo

    First… what do you mean by collectivism? Our we a collective? Is Germany or Denmark?

    I am not talking about collectivism. If you want to use tat term so loosely you might as well give up because apparently anything short of anarchy is a collective in your opinion. That does nothing to move the discussion.

    “How many damned times do I have to shove the proof that the really wealthy are all demcorats under your nose huh, Moogoo?”

    Then why do you worry about increasing their taxes… they …if they are democrats are OK with it. So why would you care.

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  11. InsipiD

    You need to consider first that in the past wages and productivity rose together. So why the change now? Why the divergence?

    An exponential increase and a linear increase would look very similar right down at the bottom. Blame technology.

    But to say the graph is meaningless is simply saying you don’t understand it’s implications. It has great meaning…great significance. Behind it lies the proof that market fundamentalist are wrong.

    If that’s what the graph proves, it falls on you to explain how so. You throw a graph representing a small slice of human history and expect somehow that it means Left=right and Right=wrong? Quit that. Try to make your case with that graph so that you can be promptly beaten over the head with its silliness. It’s the same story with you: declare victory, then insist that nobody but you can understand why you won. Hint: you’re not winning.

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  12. AlexInCT *

    First… what do you mean by collectivism? Our we a collective? Is Germany or Denmark?

    The whole class warfare bullshit. The belief that government has not just the right, but obligation to level the playing field, in the name of whatever artificial construct – social justice, the rich stole the money, you have a right to healthcare – to basically choose the winners and losers, and to punish success, all while using the wealth redistribution scam to drastically increase the populous’ dependency on them, and hence their power. And yes, Germany and Denmark are collectivist hell holes. Being wealthy and successful is almost a freaking crime. They even are going so far as to pass stupid laws that cap people’s compensation, practically always to equal or below that of government employees, amongst the many idiotic things that get done.

    I am not talking about collectivism.

    Oh yes you are. Your rant is Marx 101 dude. Envy of the rich, demand they give away anything and everything YOU feel they don’t deserve to have. After all, they stole it and are evil rethuglicans (despite the fact that the richest people all seem to be demcorats or deep in bed with them). You think corporations are there to be fleeced. People have a “right” to healthcare, paid by others. That evil insurance companies screw them, but government bureaucrats will be angels. All that nonsense is collectivism 101.

    If you want to use tat term so loosely you might as well give up because apparently anything short of anarchy is a collective in your opinion. That does nothing to move the discussion.

    Nice try bud, but that isn’t going to fly. The lie that because I believe our government is way too large, has taken far too many responsibilities over from people, and in general should never be allowed to decide winners and losers based on the ideology of those in power, doesn’t mean I want no government at all: it means I want small and responsible government.

    I want government to do what it is supposed to be responsible for under the constitution, and then not in the broadest and most outrageous sense it is being interpreted now to cover cradle to grave nanny stateism, and I even am willing to have limited and controlled government programs to help the truly needy. Get rid of the idiotic war on poverty bullshit that has cost us countless tens of trillions so far and as only served to make the number of people we consider to be poor – and hence dependant on government – larger. Let people be responsible for their choices and actions. Provide catastrophic care where appropriate, but in general stay out of the way.

    “How many damned times do I have to shove the proof that the really wealthy are all demcorats under your nose huh, Moogoo?”

    Then why do you worry about increasing their taxes… they …if they are democrats are OK with it. So why would you care.

    Because the really wealthy don’t pay income taxes you fool. The only people hit hard by these increases in income taxes the left wants so badly are the ones trying to get up there in wealth. You know? The small business entrepeneurs that create most of the jobs and wealth, and thus feul economic growth. And the class warriors know that and promote the tax hikes for that very reason: to keep their pool clean of the riffraff they don’t want to let in. If they really wanted to “tax the wealthy” they would outright confiscate the stashed away wealth of people like Bill Gates, the Pelosis, and the Kerrys to name a few, but they never do that, do they? No, taxes are for ther small people trying to get rich. It’s like an exclusive high school clique controlling entry to it with arbitrary and capricious rules masquerading as something good. And it is criminal.

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  13. sahrab

    While i agree with Jim, on the (finally) mature response you intiailly made, I (and i’m sure others) have to call your bullshit on this:

    I really mostly want good honest debate to test my position a well as to challenge others to reconider theirs. Again through time I went from one way of thinking to anotther way and I’d like to think it was a fact based truth fnding mission that got me to this point

    .
    Anytime one of your posts are challenged, if you bother to respond its typically only to call the refuter a flat earth creationist.

    Not only is this the tactic of someone that DOES NOT want an honest debate, it also has nothing to do with attempting to test a hypothesis (your position).

    Plus it shows you really have no clue on who it is that visits this site, as the majority are not the Religious Right, nor have any sympathy for them. Majority of us are Conservatives that either dont have religion, or dont let it influence our political beliefs.

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  14. sahrab

    You made a good point on production increases and wages but you apparently think that is as far as it needs to be considered.

    You need to consider first that in the past wages and productivity rose together. So why the change now? Why the divergence?

    Then you need to consider what does it mean that workers can in effect be paid less because fewer are needed. You need to think what the global implications of that are. Or even the implications for a local economy.

    The implications? The workers have become obsolete in their field, and need to learn a new trade. Growth is bad.
    Your concern would have us all still running DOS on a 8088 IBM PC Jr’s.

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  15. Dick Fitzwell

    I thought the whole point was to be more productive with less labor. Isn’t that how we raise our standard of living?

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  16. muirgeo

    I understand stand that they are not the religious right. I stated that’s why I like the site. What I say is that when you are voting republican you are voting WITH the religious right, creationist and pro-lofers, climate change deniers ect…. My personal recognition of that was one of the big issues that made me leave the party. The final nail was seeing the hole in the ideas of market fundamentalism.. also a religion.

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  17. richtaylor365

    Muirgeo, you’ re at least blogging like an adult now, keep it up.

    I called your graph meaningless because it does not bolster your argument. Take any decade in the history of human endeavor and that graph would be just as relevant. What took Pharaoh and 10 thousand slaves 10 years to do, modern technology could do in a fraction of the time and manpower, that is called progress. The simple fact that you are even here on this blog indicates that you are a beneficiary of this progress and a participant thereof, otherwise, you would be living in a cave hunting and foraging for your existence.

    You need to consider first that in the past wages and productivity rose together.

    They still do, or are you telling me that wages today are similar to those 30 years ago? Wages rise with demand for labor, that is how the free market works, if you have a valuable skill that is in demand then your services how be compensated commensurate with the demand, or do you want all professions to pay the same wage?

    Then you need to consider what does it mean that workers can in effect be paid less because fewer are needed

    They are paid less because of the skills they possess, comeon, this is not hard. Where it took 100 field workers to harvest 10 acres of strawberries in a day, now it takes one guy with a tractor that picks them automatically, and maybe a few other guys to box them and stack them. Are you lamenting all those other workers that just got layed off because they can not compete with automation? Each one of those need to update their skills, learn to drive that tractor, so they can compete in the market place.

    Behind it lies the proof that market fundamentalist are wrong.

    The fundamentals are only wrong if socialism is your ultimate goal. This is how capitalism works, both for the worker and the business, if you can not compete, then you are obsolete. You are not stupid, quit the class warfare stuff and figure out that the government does not owe you a decent living. If you want a job, go and get one. If you want a higher paying job then update your training and your skills and make yourself a desired commodity, make yourself better then the next guy. Self pity and victimhood has no place in America.

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  18. muirgeo

    What about the idea that the workers wages could go up or their hours down with rising productivity.

    The system since reagan… has been more and more set up to pit worker against worker and funnel profits to the few who happen to be at the top.

    Even if you don’t think that is morally wrong it is economically bad. When 90% of the people have no increase in wages to pend demand stalls and the economy fails.

    That’s the simplified version of what we are seeing. That is what ALWAYS happens with unbridled capitalism. Like communism the means of production are concentrated in the hands of the few. But elections and the idea of “making” …along with sports, drugs,religion and mass media manipulation appeases the masses.

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  19. JimK

    And when you vote with the left you are supporting eco-terrorists, class warfare, hypocrisy, radical socialists, fascism and left-wing dictators who murder their people without a second thought.

    Right? That’s the extension your logic here. YOU are personally responsible for every death incurred under a leftist regime anywhere in the world because you support left-wing ideology.

    Of course that is incredibly stupid, and no one who can reason past the level of a first-grader would assert such nonsense.

    In these current United States, we are given a basic choice in elections – Republican and Democrat. Third parties simply aren’t viable yet, and that is a discussion for another time. The facts are simple; we get a binary choice, and so we choose the lesser of two evils, and hope to God that the things we hate about our choices don’t come back to bite us in the ass (as they often did with Bush and are doing now with Obama for Democrats.)

    That’s the truth, muirgeo. You can keep saying stupid shit and trying to make people on this website take responsibility for things over which they have no control, but that isn’t getting you anywhere so far, is it? Have you made anyone see your perspective here, even once? Have you gotten anyone to agree with you and change their mind?

    Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. So…you have a choice. Be insane, or change tack.

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  20. sahrab

    In doing so, you make the assumption that we vote Party Line.

    For some of us, the issues are more than enough justificaiton to not vote Party Line. My current state representitive is a Democrat, who i have voted for every time he’s up for election. He is pro gun, anti-cap & trade (at a local level) and has fought the other state legislators against blanket spending.

    Here is where i differ from the Republican/Democratic talking heads. I dont have a problem with John McCain voting for illegal alien rights, or John Kerry voting for Government Healthcare, or even some Florida representitive voting against Social Security reform. Because they are, i am assuming, voting the wishes of their Constituents.

    I did have a problem with the Republian Talking heads spouting about how much better McCain would have been, over Obama. But that was only because the hypocrisy they showed, when a few months prior they railed against McCain because he was the “Maverick”. The reality… there wasnt a spits worth of policy difference between McCain and Obama. I’m talkign McCain historically, not his new found “Conservatism”.

    I voted for Paul. While i was turned off by his religious revisionism (go research his writing on how often the Founding Fathers reference God in the Declaration for example), he has a Policy History of small Government and following the Constitution as it was written and intended, not how it has been bastardized by both Parties.

    The Differnce between you and I is this. You will rail against a Republican for their policy against Rap Music because promotes drugs and violence. You will then ignore, or excuse, a Democratic policy against Rap Music, because its demeaning to women. I, and others on this board, have an issue with both Polcies, because they remove personal responsibility and weaken the First Amendment.

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  21. muirgeo

    You are right. But when the Democratic Presidential candidates lined up none of them were socialist, dictators, eco terrorist, fascist or creationist ect… When the Republicans lined up several of them raised their hands as being creationist.

    A big majority of Republicans are creationist and religios extremist ( meaning they vote on abortion issues alone). To the typical republican being an “intellectual” is a bad thing.
    The environmental, the prochoice , the pro-science and the ecnomic policies that the average democratic voter and his representative stands for make far more sense to me… and IMO have been proven more successful and fruitful when policy results are compared side by side in the real world.

    And that’s what I would expect when squaring off greed mongers, religious fanatics and creationist with intellectuals and moral pragmatists.

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  22. muirgeo

    BINGO…. except that when all the profits go to the top and the rest are either fired or recieve wage cuts then we have a problem.

    IMO the work week should be 30 hours and retirement age should be 60. We need to have near full employment all the time so workers are more in demand. When they are more in demand wages wil rise income inequality will become less and the overall economy will improve with less need for welfare.

    If we are truly being more productive why are husand and wife both working more hours and still getting further behind? Becuase we set up our economy like a winner take all lotto. Not only is it unjust it is LESS productive because the huge denmand of the middle class goes stagnat as their wages fall or stagnate. Meanwhile the welathy elite accumulate so much money but have no sales or buyers because demand folllows wages. The wealthy then speculate in Wall Street and bubbles grow and burst making more inequality and a less effecient economy.

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  23. AlexInCT *

    What about the idea that the workers wages could go up or their hours down with rising productivity.

    There we go again with the collectivist idea that wages have to be guaranteed. Next you will tell me a guy spending 400 hours polishing a turd should earn just as much as a doctor does working the same hours.

    The system since reagan… has been more and more set up to pit worker against worker and funnel profits to the few who happen to be at the top.

    Well here is some reality for you: thank to that system America did really welldespite the fact that cheaper labor elsewhere sucked a ton of our jobs away.

    Even if you don’t think that is morally wrong it is economically bad. When 90% of the people have no increase in wages to pend demand stalls and the economy fails.

    You are not seriously saying tat up until the demcorat’s lending scandal imploded the economy a couple of years ago that there have been no wage increases? Really? Because my income in the last 2 decades has more than doubled. Then again, I have a skillset that’s in high demand. If all you can do is flip burgers and people that do that are a dime a dozen, then well, those wages aren’t going to climb as fast.

    That’s the simplified version of what we are seeing. That is what ALWAYS happens with unbridled capitalism

    .

    We have not had unbrideled capitalism in this country since the days of FDR. In fact, what we have had is crony capitalism, with the powerful in government pickign the winners and losers. It has only gotten worse, and those that believe like you want to make it even more horrendous.

    Like communism the means of production are concentrated in the hands of the few.

    I wonder why?

    But elections and the idea of “making” …along with sports, drugs,religion and mass media manipulation appeases the masses.

    Revolution! Workers of the world unite and fight your oppressors? Sheesh, and you wonder why I am frightened about what you believe in?

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  24. JimK

    1. You are advocating flat-out socialism. You can no longer deny that.

    2. Couples are working more and still behind because just like our stupid government, THEY ARE IN DEBT BEYOND THEIR MEANS. Houses, cars and credit card debt have ruined the middle class.

    3. How the fuck are the wealthy accumulating all this wealth but as you calm, they have no customers? Where’s the wealth coming from? What allows them to speculate except profits made from consumers? You seem to be contradicting yourself.

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  25. JimK

    The environmental, the prochoice , the pro-science and the ecnomic policies that the average democratic voter and his representative stands for make far more sense to me… and IMO have been proven more successful and fruitful when policy results are compared side by side in the real world.

    Really? Where? You are describing, simplified, the economies of most of Europe, which is experiencing an unparalleled financial crisis and rising social unrest due to one half working to provide for the other.

    I’d like you to prove, empirically, that the policies you advocate are more successful. You can’t just *say* things and declare them as fact. Prove it. With real data and evidence.

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  26. muirgeo

    The whole class warfare bullshit.

    Alex

    Alex,

    If say a King claimed to own our country and the means of production and taxed us with out representing us would that be a reason for “class warfare” or even outright revolution?

    If a communist dictator owned the means of production and forced us to work for him would that be a reason to revolts? Would that be considered class warfare?

    If a wealthy elite minority captured most of the means of production and most of the power and they capture the regulatory and democratic structure of the government and hand down the reigns of power to their children of privilege would it be class warfare to oppose them?

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  27. muirgeo

    The belief that government has not just the right, but obligation to level the playing field, in the name of whatever artificial construct – social justice, the rich stole the money, you have a right to healthcare – to basically choose the winners and losers, and to punish success

    Alex

    Ideally.. we the people ARE the government. So yes we have a right NOT to steal money but to agree on the rules of how to set up society to maximize our success. If we all agree the system doesn’t benefit form massive concentrations of wealth then so be it. We can still have plenty of wealthy people…. but if every one is working and sharing in the increased productivity we can all work fewer hours and fewer years. If you want to have massive concentrations of wealth and set up the economy like a lotto it will be less merit based and less efficient. Most people will have to work far more hours and retire later so the extreme wealth can be supported.

    And indeed that’s what we see in Europe. They work less hard and take more vacations and travel more and retire earlier and never have to worry about health care. We work far harder and longer. And yes Europe is in trouble like we are but not any worse and for the same reasons.

    I am convinced that minimalist free market fundamentalism will always lead to a small privileged class while large numbers of potentially successful brains will be wasted squandered and never given a chance growing up illiterate in Detroit.

    I believe a free market system is a system of privilege and ultimately inefficient leaving many people out of the work force. I believe a well regulated fair market system will reward merit and creativity and grow far more prosperous than the so called free market system. There would be plenty of super wealthy people… but maybe NO billionaires…. but far far more millionaires and a far more thriving middle class and far fewer in the dependent class.
    And its got nothing to do with socialism… so please… argue the points.

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  28. muirgeo

    And yes, Germany and Denmark are collectivist hell holes.

    What are you talking about? Denmark consistently ranks as the top happiest place to live.

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  29. muirgeo

    Awe man Jim…. were we a socialist county in 1950? Is Denmark or Switzerland socialist?

    THEY ARE IN DEBT BEYOND THEIR MEANS

    Jim

    Jim … go back to my graph…. flat wages are why they are in debt. Yes they could have avoided debt if they choose to live 1970’s lifestyle and both parent worked more hours. Their debt was the only thing that made our economy look OK. What we are left with after the crash IS the real economy.

    3. How the fuck are the wealthy accumulating

    Jim

    Back to the graph Jim. Productivity rose massively…. but rather then share the wealth since about 1980 we’ve increasingly set up society and the rules so that all the wealth can be accumulated at the top. From union busting, to tax cuts, to freezing minimum wage to corporate and tax law….. it’s all about policy and there is no good reason to arrange it to benefit the few…. unless you are one of them AND a greedy one at that. Indeed there are plenty of super wealthy who understand this and agree with e… mostly people who earned their wealth and didn’t inherit it like the Koch brothers did. Switch the Koch brothers at birth into a poor detroit home and you end up with two ugly illiterate old white guys.

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  30. muirgeo

    Take any decade in the history of human endeavor and that graph would be just as relevant.

    Wrong… at least for the 140 years of USA history between 1840 and 1980… during those times the two lines were congruent and not divergent.

    Self pity and victimhood has no place in America.

    Can you imagine if people had your attitude back in 1776…. oh wait they did…they were called Tory’s … and when the revolution came the tucked tail across the borders and seas with other supporters of the monarchy and with other supporters of privilege.

    I simply claim the modern day position of a Thomas Paine wanna be.

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  31. JimK

    There is no way you really believe such contradictory and blatantly obvious nonsense. I am quickly reaching the conclusion that you are the Scott Adams of this website. It’s rare to see such determination in a troll.

    Let me make this one point as clear as possible for you. You claim that the rich are accumulating wealth. How? They have to be selling something. But you also say there’s no one to buy anything. So they;re selling to no one. But getting rich doing it through some magical tax shell game? And then you attach market speculation to the mix, but they have to earn profits before they can enter the market.

    So of course they are selling. To the middle class, who are racking up debt at alarming rates in order to keep buying. It’s not wages. No economist with credibility says that. It’s debt and spending. Anyone who has ever read a paper, turned on a television or balanced a checkbook can see it plain as day.

    People and government are living beyond their means, and you advocate not just more of that, but you advocate that the government dictate earnings, mandatory retirements and limit the ability of workers to work and employers to employ at will. And you know what else you’re advocating?

    Doing it all at gunpoint. Because that’s how this all works. If you break the rules, the government penalizes you. If you don’t pay, they come with guns and jail you.

    That’s what you are advocating. Government telling people they are not allowed to earn over X amount of dollars, and if they disobey, pointing guns at them until they do.

    Good job. Hell of a philosophy there.

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  32. AlexInCT *

    By people that tank that shit to make it so. As someone that has lived in Europe I can tell you I think it is bullshit when these people claim the Danes are that happy. The happiest Danes I know, and I know quite a few, live far away from Denmark.

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  33. richtaylor365

    Wrong… at least for the 140 years of USA history between 1840 and 1980… during those times the two lines were congruent and not divergent.

    Astounding, you can’t possibly believe such nonsense, do you even understand what you just wrote.? During that time period there was at least 100 inventions or advancements that increased productivity way beyond the wages of the individual worker that utilized the new technology. I will give you one example, in 1845 the sewing machine was invented. Prior to this clothes were made by hand but now, what took a week could be accomplished in less then a day. Do the math for yourself. A dressmaker increased her productivity 10 fold, are you going to lie to us and say that after the invention of the sewing machine all dress makers had their wages increased 10 fold? Do you even see the ridiculous box you have placed yourself in? Try that critical thinking that liberals keep telling us (unsuccessfully) that they are known for.

    Regarding you being a modern day Thomas Paine, high-larious. Paine actually did something with his life, you OTOH spend your days envying the real Tom Paine’s of the world, with your hand out, demanding that the government provide for you, rather unPaineish if you ask me.

    Oh, and spare us the Marxist drivel videos, remember that guy you say you voted for, twice? He properly placed your utopian dream squarely in the ash heap of history, right where it belongs.

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  34. AlexInCT *

    Ideally.. we the people ARE the government.

    Not in your world. In your world the masses are nothing but a corrupt mob robbing the productive through the government out of nothing but envy and greed. I have never in my life, even when I was young and naive, felt that we have the right to take away other people’s wealth and property, no matter what the scheme or mechanism, to pay off the voters. Maybe that’s because I saw how well this works in countries that took it to the logical conclusion.

    And indeed that’s what we see in Europe. They work less hard and take more vacations and travel more and retire earlier and never have to worry about health care. We work far harder and longer.

    What a pile of bullshit. You sure like to repeat the usual drivel that the left says about Europe, but me, I know better. I have relatives still in various European countries, was stationed there, and actually follow their news quite closely. Most Europeans pay super high prices for everything, have far fewer material things – because they simply have not got the income to buy them – than their American counterparts, and are even deeper than we Americans are, in debt. That’s a fact. Many of them take second or third mortgages or max out credit cards going on all those vacations you mention and seem to be so envious of. The various European economies are all in shambles too. The wealthier – for now that is – northern nations are keeping the spenders in the south afloat but that’s a losing game. Don’t be surprised to see the EU dissolve and most of Europe going into economic chaos as this plays out, and it’s coming sooner than later. Especially now that the US isn’t their sugar daddy and the American tax payer provided military no longer deals with their defense needs. That’s happening because, as you pointed out, the Europeans works so much less, get too much taken away by their government and get frankly way too little in return for it, take so much time off, and in general produce way to little – both population and commodity wise – to keep the collectivist states afloat for too much longer. Crime is out of control as people can’t defend themselves, and their imported work forces are turning on them while they become xenophobic. Your delusion of what Europe just that.

    Look you need to have some reality fed to you somehow man, cause you live in Fantasyland. Seriously. This is getting borring.

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  35. richtaylor365

    It’s rare to see such determination in a troll.

    It truly is. Living in the Bay Area, I have many liberal friends who can tout the party line with the best of them, but at least their arguments make sense. Muirgeo doesn’t just spout nonsense, it is so diaphanous and disjointed, my only conclusion is that he is effing with us, nobody can be that clueless.

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  36. muirgeo

    ” You claim that the rich are accumulating wealth. How? ”
    Jim,

    BACK TO THE GRAPH……

    The increased productivity but flat wages means the extra productivity goes to the top.

    Now the middle class has flat wages . So how do they maintain their lifestyles… Well you work more hours and put mom in the work force… all this drives wages done… so they work more hours,… and bowl alone.

    Now they come up to a wall not able to work more so what to do. Borrow… borrow against your equity… dip into your retirement…. borrow any way you can.

    But who has money to lend… oh the guys on top have lots and lots of cash to lend because YOU workers increased profits but not your wages.

    So instead the extra money come to you in wages your boss lends it to you with interest. Eventually you are so in debt the values of your retirement is sucked into their hedge funds and your home equity is sucked into the mortgage backed securities…. eventually things crash but they’ve protected themselves and they own the government… so they take your tax dollars to bail themselves out and they give themselves bonus while you are homeless looking at vacant houses.

    Now they have the government giving them free money which they buy t-bills which raise 2% return… more then they can get investing their trillions because the middle class has no money… they are bailing themselves out of debt and just as they do the oil speculators come along and charge then $15 dollars a fillup.

    Yes Jim we have a Casino Economy… and the house never loses…..

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  37. muirgeo

    Oh, and spare us the Marxist drivel videos, remember that guy you say you voted for, twice? He properly placed your utopian dream squarely in the ash heap of history, right where it belongs.

    And how’s that working out for us 30 years later? Like this economy do you? I hope so because we are stuck with it for a long time. Until my graph gets repaired.

    And indeed Reagan increased the Debt 186% in his 8 years and his tax cuts have since added much much more…

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  38. Dick Fitzwell

    IMO the work week should be 30 hours and retirement age should be 60.

    IMO the work week should be 2 hours and retirement age should be 25. Wouldn’t that be better?

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  39. AlexInCT *

    And how’s that working out for us 30 years later? Like this economy do you?

    Absolutely not. That’s why I hope demcorats lose power as soon as possible, and someone that lives in the real world and not under the delusion that any of the marxist economics mongrel model that we get told will create utopia on earth but constantly, whether immediately or over decades of time, lead people to hell on earth, takes over and tries to salvage the sinking ship, Muirgy.

    I hope so because we are stuck with it for a long time.

    That’s what you get when people try to do social engineering & wealth redistribution, in total contradiction to the laws that the real world works under, for political gain. Yeah, we are stuck with the results of this for a long time. Of course, since the left blamed everyone but them for the problem, demanded they be allowed to fix it, and then did anything but that, we will have a repeat with even worse economic consequences, sooner than later.

    Until my graph gets repaired.

    As others already pointed out, your graph is based on an idiotic and false concept. So there will be no repair. Besides, the problem really is the ludicrous spending levels of the massive all encompassing state, which you want to increase, and continue to pretend will work despite all the proof to the contrary.

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  40. Miguelito

    Ha ha ha… Video starts off: by the International Socialist Review and socialistworker.org. Completely setup and sponsored by said socialist groups to bash capitalism. But we should take it as just non biased info. Classic

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